An idea for dealing with Outwit without resorting to Traits

[Sharur]

It seems to me that the main impetus for the barrage of traits in Web of Spider-Man is the fact that with feats gone (a good change, imo, but a different debate entirely), Outwit is now/once again extremely powerful. You can pay less than 50 points for an outwitter (e.g. Holiday Killer) who can counter the powers that I may have spent well over a hundred points for on my larger figures, so one solution is to make those powers immune to Outwit by making them Traits.

I think this is a very inelegant solution. It's hapazard, in that it only applies to new figures with the traits, making Outwit just as much of a problem for older tentpoles and the like as it has ever been. It's also an approach that involves adjusting hundreds of future figures, rather than the rules for the single power that is the crux of the problem. And it also results in figures that don't really need or warrant dial-long, nearly unavoidable powers receiving them anyway. At this rate, everyone is going to need to be packing Pulse Wave and/or Poison all the time just to deal with all the Traits that contain defense powers.

I think a better solution would be to modify Outwit. There's probably a lot of different ways to do it, and since I don't browse this forum perhaps someone has already suggested it, but here's my idea:

Make Outwit work like theme team Prob Control minus the token.

That is, Outwit would only usable if the outwitter hasn't taken an action of any kind that turn. So you could TK or carry a figure into position to use Outwit, or move another figure out of the way to open up line of sight (unlike Outsiders). But you couldn't simply have the figure move, then Outwit, within the course of a single turn. I think this would go a long way toward enabling teams to maneuver to protect their figures from being Outwitted, and would reduce the need to give Traits to all but the cheapest figures just to keep them viable.

Thoughts?

[nivlac713]

Eh. Nerfing outwit is ok, I do think its powerful, but its supposedly costed at what it should be, and nerfing it takes away from those figs that have it. I like the trait idea. So long as those characters that deserve it get it, I'm happy. You have to be alittle open to what deserves what, but thats true with things even without powers. Bullseye with psy blast? I get it but... Ya see? Traits allows for powers and abilities that would not be available otherwise, and I think using it as a way around outwit, still very limited truthfully, the rest of the dial of powers is still open to outwit, is very nice and effective. Wolfsbane with CC reflexes and SS the whole dial? Mabey alittle too good, but I can see it, so I will accept it. Neat idea, just think it would involve outwitters sitting around more and being less usefull, specially the higher points ones. Thanos can't phasing/teleport to outwit you? Whaaa??? Changing the rules is usually a bad idea, adding new stuff I think is better. Just my 2 bits.

[Wilx]

Nerfing outwit would really affect the cost of all the old characters who have outwit. I don't think this is the way to go.

[Overdrive]

I like Outwit as it is - obviously it's much more of a "silver bullet" power against some powers than others (my favourite example is Green Scar, whose modest defense mid-dial means that losing Impervious and Willpower is losing a LOT), but generally I tend to think every other power in the PAC ought to be increased in terms of cost if Outwit were detuned. Outwit is a game balancer oftentimes, and making it more limited would take away its effectiveness, which I don't currently feel is excessive. Really, I tend to more often see Perplex and Prob Control abused to make teams virtually unstoppable than Outwit - if I were going to scale anything back, I'd start with them.

Traits work well as non-counterable powers, as do SPs with the good ole "this power cannot be countered" line. WoS certainly seems to be using Traits more than I feel is justified, but that's just my opinion - I might change it once I get to play the pieces. I agree with your point that Traits acting solely as anti-Outwit is crude, but as long as they are used only when appropriate (Odin and Thor with SS certainly makes sense), I like the mechanic.

My 2 bits.

[thetigerking83]

Outwit in and of itself doesn't bother me. Outwit in relation to damage reducers bothers me. In the beginning Outwit and high damage were the only ways to get past damage reducers. Today there's Exploit weakness, Psychic blast, Full-dial uber outwit, and damage values seem to have gone up in general, while dials have actually shortened. Don't ask me for the logic there.

Granted defenses have gotten higher so now everyone is harder to hit but that just makes the game rely more heavily on luck, and opens up other problems, especially in relation to older figures...

It's a touchy and complicated topic where no matter how you change it you have to compromise something else, and likely affect how the game plays in general.

[CornsilkSW]

Stealth is all you need to negate outwit.

[Sharur]

Outwit in relation to damage reducers bothers me.

I definitely agree with this- it's by far the biggest part of the problem.

Stealth is all you need to negate outwit.

What if you want to play a close combat figure? You can't stay in Stealth if you want to get up next to someone. And many figures will likely never have Stealth, due to it being comic-inappropriate. Stealth is an Outwit counter to some extent, yes, but it doesn't address the fundamental issue that Outwit is a cheap and wildly effective counter for so many other powers (or combinations of powers) that cost a lot more, which in turn has forced the use of Traits to protect those powers from Outwit.

[Faster Than Flash]

I started a thread like this - and trust me, there are 2843209284039 others.

People here do not like rule changes, they feel for some reason that changing the rules should not be done unless the sky is falling.

Well...since the sky hasn't fell - you are going to come up against a lot of resistance.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Outwit is too strong, as is prob control. There are lots of solutions that were given - yours is actually new (nice ;) )

Ill just list the ones off the top of my head...
1. Only outwit ppl with lower point values
con : you cant stop superman

2. Give an action token for outwit (and prob control)
con : stronger higher point figs now cannot use outwit (i would rather attack for 5 damage than outwit)

3. Outwit does not work on defensive powers
con : people here seem to not like it (mostly the old people though - so this is the most viable solution)

4. Your suggestion - e.g. - outwit only if you have not been given an action (and I am assuming if you outwit...you cannot move after?)
con : mobility is the #1 problem in this game.

[Thrumble Funk]

Eh, Outwit is fine as is. There are ways around it, and positioning can halt its effectiveness as well.

[Gentlegamer]

As an old advocate of modifying Outwit for various reasons, with the state of the game as it is at present, I think the only "balancing" change that ought to be made, if any, is to make Outwit's (and Perplex and Probability Control) default range shorter, 5-6 would be about right, in my opinion. This would require a bit more positioning by the player wanting to use Outwit to "pay" for the payoff of countering powers.

[AgentP]

Something must be done with Outwit. It's too powerful

[Thrumble Funk]

As an old advocate of modifying Outwit for various reasons, with the state of the game as it is at present, I think the only "balancing" change that ought to be made, if any, is to make Outwit's (and Perplex and Probability Control) default range shorter, 5-6 would be about right, in my opinion. This would require a bit more positioning by the player wanting to use Outwit to "pay" for the payoff of countering powers.

Yeah, shortening the range wouldn't be bad. It'd make sense to have it like Mind Control (0 range becomes 4 range for the action, normal range otherwise).

[Gabellius]

I've been playing clix since Infinity Challenge (though I just started reading the forums and stuff). Outwit (along with Perplex and Prob Control) really should be nerfed, just a bit, I think. I completely agree with whomever said that the Outwit range should dropped, maybe to 8 or 7. Even back in Infinity Challenge, did it make sense that R Black Panther could Outwit the Juggernaut's Invulnerability from 10 squares away, looking through some bushes and stuff? I don't think so.