morlun vs mystics [Archive]

normalview

08/12/2010, 10:11

morlun's trait gives him steal energy. quick question. if he hits a mystic, which goes first, the mystic feedback or the steal energy. i wanna say the mystic and then the steal energy. can a get an answer please. thanks folks! if you can steal energy after you take mystics, then morlun is the ultimate mystic TA killer. copy all you want, he's still gonna beat your face in! i love it!:devious:

Please quote the game effects in question.

Steal Energy
(Non-Optional) Each time an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

MYSTICS
When a character using the Mystics team ability takes damage from an attack, the attacker is dealt 1 unavoidable damage. This damage is not an attack.

They both occur at the same time, so the active player (most likely Morlun's controller) gets to decide the order.

Overdrive

08/12/2010, 10:13

I too would be interested to know the answer. According to the PAC, Mystics is dealt "when a character using the Mystics team ability takes damage from an attack", and Steal Energy healing takes place "Each time an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack made by this character". IMO, "each time" = "when", so they would occur at the same time, meaning the handler could choose.

Does it matter, though? Regardless of the order in which they occur, it's going to be take 1 & heal 1, netting to 0. The only time it seems it would matter would be if Morlun was at the top of his dial, or if the Mystics put him on KO.

Hmmm....

Overdrive

08/12/2010, 10:13

D'oh! Beaten to my point!

BigDaddyHub

08/12/2010, 10:13

I can see an argument made for saying that these are simultaneous effects and should be resolved according to the preference of the active player since neither effect says in the wording of the power which comes first.

EDIT: Normalviewed while posting! Go with him!!!!!

UniqueLoginNamor

08/12/2010, 10:23

If only Morlun HAD the Mystics T/a. Now THAT would be utter bull.

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 10:25

Please quote the game effects in question.

Steal Energy
(Non-Optional) Each time an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

MYSTICS
When a character using the Mystics team ability takes damage from an attack, the attacker is dealt 1 unavoidable damage. This damage is not an attack.

They both occur at the same time, so the active player (most likely Morlun's controller) gets to decide the order.

thanks bro. thats what i thought! this is just sick now. morlun is my fav , and most wanted sr from this set. i'm so glad i pulled him. lots of ppl in my area think that mystics will keep me from hitting you. ohh, carnage has steal energy too. he's gonna be another mystic killer. I LOVE WEB OF SPIDER-MAN!! most well rounded set i'm seen in a while.

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 10:27

If only Morlun HAD the Mystics T/a. Now THAT would be utter bull.

yeah, then he'd be even nastier than before. the best thing is, you HAVE to range him. if you get close, you're almost GIVING him life back. more times than not he'll hit, and when he does he hits hard. he's getting played all the time by me.

UniqueLoginNamor

08/12/2010, 10:36

yeah, then he'd be even nastier than before. the best thing is, you HAVE to range him. if you get close, you're almost GIVING him life back. more times than not he'll hit, and when he does he hits hard. he's getting played all the time by me.

With his reducers even hard hitters can only hit him for 2 and then they take 1 themselves. He hits them and heals one. Plus he can jump around eating people. and he regenerates. And is indomitable.

The first time i saw this i thought he had Mystics and thought "gee, he'll never ever die."

Oh, well, there's always damage shield

neutralmarkhot

08/12/2010, 10:37

yeah, then he'd be even nastier than before. the best thing is, you HAVE to range him. if you get close, you're almost GIVING him life back. more times than not he'll hit, and when he does he hits hard. he's getting played all the time by me.

not to mention after he "tags" you there's very little you can do to prevent him from finishing you off, especially on the wide open maps. putting him on a Brute team with Pip The Troll could be pretty...brutal. "Oh, you're 13 squares away? Please let me base you with Morlun and bash you. Oh, you're now adjacent to my teammate? Please allow me to bash you again with Pip." ;)

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 11:02

With his reducers even hard hitters can only hit him for 2 and then they take 1 themselves. He hits them and heals one. Plus he can jump around eating people. and he regenerates. And is indomitable.

The first time i saw this i thought he had Mystics and thought "gee, he'll never ever die."

Oh, well, there's always damage shield

not to mention after he "tags" you there's very little you can do to prevent him from finishing you off, especially on the wide open maps. putting him on a Brute team with Pip The Troll could be pretty...brutal. "Oh, you're 13 squares away? Please let me base you with Morlun and bash you. Oh, you're now adjacent to my teammate? Please allow me to bash you again with Pip." ;)

QFT!! i didn't even think of using pip, but thats gonna happen now! morluns sp is so comic accurate it's not even funny. i can't wait to use this to kill runaways! vector and morlun are gonna be a nasty combo!

W.I.T

08/12/2010, 13:38

tmkac

08/12/2010, 13:45

Deleted for thinking too much. Read next post to understand.

tmkac

08/12/2010, 14:07

Hey. My question isn't about Morlun and Mystics but something else dealing with Morlun and I didn't think he needed another thread right now.

About Morlun's movement SP:

RELENTLESS PURSUIT: Give Morlun a power action. You may place him in a square adjacent to an opposing character within his line of fire who has a tracking token, then target that character with a close combat attack as a free action.

My question was on the bolded part. When it says within line of fire, is that the same as drawing a line of fire? I didn't know if it meant he could jump on a target even if in stealth.

Not trying to be rules lawyer type. Just getting my wordings right. I don't think it means anything different but I just want to be sure. Thanks for any help.

Never mind. I just reread the power and it says nothing about needing line of fire to character, only line of fire to square adjacent to opposing character. My bad. I got ahead of myself. Which I tend to do. Sorry all.

BigDaddyHub

08/12/2010, 14:23

tmkac

08/12/2010, 14:28

No, I think you had it right before you edited yourself. The opposing character has to be within his line of fire, not the square adjacent to the opposing character. This sentence does have an awkward grammatical feel to it, though. What does the prepositional phrase modify, the square or the character? I believe it is the character that must be within the line of fire.

D'OH!!!! Oh well.......hmmmm.......Web of Spider-Pig.
(In best Homer Simpson voice)

And darn it all with the prepositional phrases. I got a D in English in school. But a B in French....figure that out.

BigDaddyHub

08/12/2010, 14:37

D'OH!!!! Oh well.......hmmmm.......Web of Spider-Pig.
(In best Homer Simpson voice)

And darn it all with the prepositional phrases. I got a D in English in school. But a B in French....figure that out.

Vous avez mangé une grenouille et donc vous parlez le français ?

tmkac

08/12/2010, 14:41

Vous avez mangé une grenouille et donc vous parlez le français ?

Umm....no. Ewww.

tmkac

08/12/2010, 14:43

Je ne parle pas du français très bien plus

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 14:53

Here is a fun 1000 point 'Monster' keyword team. You probably won't win too much with it, but it will be a blast to play :devious::

Morlun 180
Carnage 153 (333)
Doppleganger 93 (426)
Anti-Venom 93 (519)
Venom 87 (606)
Symbiote 49 x8 392 (998)

I'd love to play that team :classic: What fun!!!!!!

BTW, did anyone else notice that all the Symbiote type characters, all have a 4 Range?

why couldn't you win.you'll probably win map choice and then u can choose a place like the prison. i'd actually put him on a animal theme team. in a 300 pt game all u need is a lightspeed and a good ranged piece. morlun should be able to do all the heavy lifting.

awf7

08/12/2010, 16:07

i'd actually put him on a animal theme team. in a 300 pt game all u need is a lightspeed and a good ranged piece. morlun should be able to do all the heavy lifting.

Animal theme teams got a huge bonus with all the new figures in WoS. Though I am sad that Morlun, Puma, and Rocket Raccoon all add up to 301. :(

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 16:11

Animal theme teams got a huge bonus with all the new figures in WoS. Though I am sad that Morlun, Puma, and Rocket Raccoon all add up to 301. :(

yeah, that is sad. all morlun needs is somewhat of a taxi and he's living up to his keywords! i can't wait till i get the chance to play him!

robedestroyer

08/12/2010, 16:11

realdarkphoenix

08/12/2010, 16:27

Morlun will be my new go to piece..

Morlun and morbius ftw!

awf7

08/12/2010, 16:45

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 16:46

It's strange, I'm getting more and more excited for Morlun every day. I was excited for Cosmic Spider-Man, but I'll wait until we get the errata to see what his attack power will be. So do you guys have some good ideas for teams to build around Morlun? I just think he has a lot of potential. Sure he doesn't have move & attack, but you could throw Lunge on him to assist with that. I also think you'd want to "tag" a lower point opposing figure early in the game so if things are getting hairy for Morlun, you can get him out of trouble and place him next to his soon to be prey.

Morlun will be my new go to piece..

Morlun and morbius ftw!
the thing about morlun is he can be put on ANY team and do well. i don't play feats so i can't you there bro. i'm sure there are tons of feats that make him even more deadly. i know he's my go to piece too phoenix. his numbers are just too sick. him and morbius will make a good team with mole man.

i all is the 'mighty M' team. morlun,morbius and mole man. morlun has a taxi to get him ANYWHERE. a stealth wall to hide behind. morbius to do some true-blood team up with, and mole man to clean up and snipe from 4 away. after one good hit from morlun, most figs will either be dead or weak enough for mole man to snipe them! that might be my next 300 pt game. we'll see how it goes! MIGHTY M FTW!!

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 16:48

Morlun is my number one want from this set.

Though with the first two clicks of leap climb and indomitable, his mobility isn't really that big of a weakness. I really want to see how this guy plays on the field.

i saw him played in the spidey events bu Gudda and he did well! all he needs a tie-up or a taxi!

W.I.T

08/12/2010, 17:31

why couldn't you win.you'll probably win map choice and then u can choose a place like the prison. i'd actually put him on a animal theme team. in a 300 pt game all u need is a lightspeed and a good ranged piece. morlun should be able to do all the heavy lifting.

I didn't say you couldn't win, just that you probably wouldn't win that much.

No taxis for anyone on your team, and a maximum of 4 Range (except Venoms SP). Few Move Attack powers (only 2 charge). Assuming 10 actions per turn (which is what we play in a 1000 point match) you can move 10 of your figures up. Then the other team has the opportunity to do their thing. Of course the Symbiots are great little pieces of mobile blocking terrain :p But I'd expect to get picked apart at Range with a team like this. Sure, there are some maps that would help out your cause (Oan, Prison, Bank, Junkyard etc) but overall, I'd expect to lose more often than not with this team.

I am still going to be playing it :cool: Possibly an expanded version, since we play big 2000 games, when we play over 500, for the most part.

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 18:07

I didn't say you couldn't win, just that you probably wouldn't win that much.

No taxis for anyone on your team, and a maximum of 4 Range (except Venoms SP). Few Move Attack powers (only 2 charge). Assuming 10 actions per turn (which is what we play in a 1000 point match) you can move 10 of your figures up. Then the other team has the opportunity to do their thing. Of course the Symbiots are great little pieces of mobile blocking terrain :p But I'd expect to get picked apart at Range with a team like this. Sure, there are some maps that would help out your cause (Oan, Prison, Bank, Junkyard etc) but overall, I'd expect to lose more often than not with this team.

I am still going to be playing it :cool: Possibly an expanded version, since we play big 2000 games, when we play over 500, for the most part.

if you play the higher point games(like i do) tten you can fit some heavy hitting monsters on there. actually zzax is the perfect taxi for morlun. good range and can go ANYWHERE he wants! i smell new team forming!:laugh:

Aberrant

08/12/2010, 19:03

Grr, I am getting a bit angry that everyone is suddenly "Go go Morlun!" I was hoping most players would hate him and not want him, because he is definitely my single most wanted SR in the set.

nivlac713

08/12/2010, 19:07

awf7

08/12/2010, 19:28

Grr, I am getting a bit angry that everyone is suddenly "Go go Morlun!" I was hoping most players would hate him and not want him, because he is definitely my single most wanted SR in the set.

Haha, I know how you feel. Before the set list was out, I was literally praying that a Morlun figure would be clixed in this set. And my prayers were answered, and he does not disappoint!

I am a bit worried now since I am only getting a case of WoS and was hoping some of the fellow players around me wouldn't really want him and then I could maybe trade for him if I don't pull him. With Sixteen SRs, and the probability of getting 7-8 SRs in a case, I am feeling quite uneasy about that prospect.

Aberrant

08/12/2010, 19:53

I do know that I plan on running an animal theme team including Morlun and Shathra.

Also - anyone notice the distinct lack of the Mystical keyword?

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 20:08

I do know that I plan on running an animal theme team including Morlun and Shathra.

Also - anyone notice the distinct lack of the Mystical keyword?

yes, i noticed that too!he's still a beast though. most times i'll say forget the theme! i'm sorry that everyone wants him now. i pulled him and he looks awesome in hand.

realdarkphoenix

08/12/2010, 22:18

larthosgrr8

08/12/2010, 22:47

He'll prob be the figure that everyone sleeps on then realizes "wow this clix is amazing" Alot of people are hung up on NC and deadpool.

This dude imo is looking like he's gonna be candidate for one of the top pieces in the set.

once the buzz dies down, he'll be ruled as one of the best bricks in the GAME! ppl will learn that for his points, he's a monster. no other figure in the game has the staying power he does. steal energy as a trait will keep him around way longer than any other fig in the game. with just a little support he's a just awesome!!

brojase

08/12/2010, 23:02

Spider-Dave

08/18/2010, 18:24

Played two games with him today, and he is a beast unless someone gets an ouwit and then a massive strike against him....

Questions

08/19/2010, 14:01

Never mind. I just reread the power and it says nothing about needing line of fire to character, only line of fire to square adjacent to opposing character. My bad. I got ahead of myself. Which I tend to do. Sorry all.

No, I think you had it right before you edited yourself. The opposing character has to be within his line of fire, not the square adjacent to the opposing character. This sentence does have an awkward grammatical feel to it, though. What does the prepositional phrase modify, the square or the character? I believe it is the character that must be within the line of fire.

nbperp chimed in today (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285483) and you need LOF to the character with the tracking token, not to the square in which you are going to place Morlun.

The line of fire has to be drawn to the figure, not the square Morlun is going to.

tmkac

08/19/2010, 14:33

nbperp chimed in today (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285483) and you need LOF to the character with the tracking token, not to the square in which you are going to place Morlun.

Guess that makes sense for game purposes and the tmkac will abide. But I think it's more accurate to the comics if it woulda been line of fire to square instead. So that way even stealters can't hide. Cause I remember in the comics once he finds you, you can't do nothing to hide.

brojase

08/19/2010, 15:27

Guess that makes sense for game purposes and the tmkac will abide. But I think it's more accurate to the comics if it woulda been line of fire to square instead. So that way even stealters can't hide. Cause I remember in the comics once he finds you, you can't do nothing to hide.

I agree with this, but either way, Morlun is one bad mo fo.

wonderboy8917

09/01/2010, 16:26

ShadowMark

09/01/2010, 17:10

Animal theme teams got a huge bonus with all the new figures in WoS. Though I am sad that Morlun, Puma, and Rocket Raccoon all add up to 301. :(

Bump it to 400 and add Throg? Especially on the bridge map?;)

Guess that makes sense for game purposes and the tmkac will abide. But I think it's more accurate to the comics if it woulda been line of fire to square instead. So that way even stealters can't hide. Cause I remember in the comics once he finds you, you can't do nothing to hide.

Make sure a stealther is next to someone who has a tracking token and that Morlun can see:rolleyes: Can see it now....

"no, you can see Batman, he has stealth, so Morlun can go there"
"you are correct, but he can see bob next to him"

Questions

09/01/2010, 17:22

Make sure a stealther is next to someone who has a tracking token and that Morlun can see:rolleyes: Can see it now....

"no, you can see Batman, he has stealth, so Morlun can go there"
"you are correct, but he can see bob next to him"

But that still only allows him to attack the character adjacent to the stealth character. Sure, it puts him adjacent to the stealth character, but he'll need to wait to attack the stealth character.

ShadowMark

09/01/2010, 17:43

But that still only allows him to attack the character adjacent to the stealth character. Sure, it puts him adjacent to the stealth character, but he'll need to wait to attack the stealth character.

This is true, but nothing that can't be taken care of with the power and defense of Morlun. Next turn indomitable, muwahahaha...:devious::devious:

I like this piece and can't wait to use him.:laugh:

Renard

09/01/2010, 18:35

If Morlun is on his 1st click, does he still put a tracking token on a hit target?

The question is, does it still count as healing and thus puts a tracking token on, even if you can't heal any further since your on your first click? Kinda like can you use support on a character that is on their 1st click?

That's a great question. If Morlun can't put a tracking token on enemy figs on his 1st click it makes him a lot less effective I think.

Dremak

09/01/2010, 18:40

That's a great question. If Morlun can't put a tracking token on enemy figs on his 1st click it makes him a lot less effective I think.

HEALING
Characters can have their damage healed through the use of powers like Regeneration, Steal Energy, and Support, as well as through other game effects. When a character is healed of damage, turn its combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to the damage healed. A character can’t heal beyond its starting line. A character with multiple starting lines can’t be healed beyond the starting line that it began with in a particular game.

I would think that the bolded text means, no you cannot heal when you are on your first click, no heal=no tracker.

vlad3theimpaler

09/01/2010, 18:54

I would think that the bolded text means, no you cannot heal when you are on your first click, no heal=no tracker.

I'm fairly certain that this is the correct answer.

ShadowMark

09/01/2010, 18:56

Easiest solution to that problem is Phone booth SO, or push him off of his first click ;)

It does "dumb" him down a little bit, though.

tmkac

09/01/2010, 18:59

I would think that the bolded text means, no you cannot heal when you are on your first click, no heal=no tracker.

Well, Poo......:ermm:

Renard

09/01/2010, 23:47

I would think that the bolded text means, no you cannot heal when you are on your first click, no heal=no tracker.

Sorry but I don't think that's what it means. You can heal someone on their first click, if successful they just won't be healed of any damage. You can use steal energy on your first click, it just won't heal any damage.

Renard

09/01/2010, 23:49

vlad3theimpaler

09/02/2010, 01:00

STEAL ENERGY (NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from
a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

doesn't mean you have to have any damage, and you can still 'heal' you just won't go past your starting click.

SUPPORT Give this character a power action and make an attack roll against an adjacent
target friendly character as though making a close combat attack. When using this power, neither
this character nor the target can be adjacent to an opposing character; ignore all combat value
modifiers for this attack. If the attack roll succeeds, roll a d6 and subtract 2 from the result,
minimum result 1. The target is healed of damage equal to the result.

same

No, you can use steal energy on your first click, but that doesn't mean that you can HEAL on your first click.HEALING
Characters can have their damage healed through the use of powers like Regeneration, Steal Energy, and Support, as well as through other game effects. When a character is healed of damage, turn its combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to the damage healed. A character can’t heal beyond its starting line. A character with multiple starting lines can’t be healed beyond the starting line that it began with in a particular game.
and from the glossary
HEALING: Restoring health that has been reduced by damage by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction.
If Morlun is on his first click, he is not restoring health that has been reduced or turning his dial in a counterclockwise direction. Thus, I say that no healing takes place, and therefore no tracking token is placed.

gudda

09/02/2010, 01:13

morlun's trait gives him steal energy. quick question. if he hits a mystic, which goes first, the mystic feedback or the steal energy. i wanna say the mystic and then the steal energy. can a get an answer please. thanks folks! if you can steal energy after you take mystics, then morlun is the ultimate mystic TA killer. copy all you want, he's still gonna beat your face in! i love it!:devious:

I bet this kind of stuff comes up alot during play testing ... Who ever does that kind of stuff would probably know the answer to this. Though we have a great resource here in the form of our rules deputies to clear things up. He is going to be a mystic KILLER though your right about that.

vlad3theimpaler

09/02/2010, 01:18

That's a great question. If Morlun can't put a tracking token on enemy figs on his 1st click it makes him a lot less effective I think.

He could still hit a mystic, choose the mystic damage to resolve before his steal energy, take a click, then heal a click, and then put the tracking token on.

jak7890

09/02/2010, 02:50

Sorry but I don't think that's what it means. You can heal someone on their first click, if successful they just won't be healed of any damage. You can use steal energy on your first click, it just won't heal any damage.

No, you can use steal energy on your first click, but that doesn't mean that you can HEAL on your first click.
and from the glossary

If Morlun is on his first click, he is not restoring health that has been reduced or turning his dial in a counterclockwise direction. Thus, I say that no healing takes place, and therefore no tracking token is placed.

vlad3theimpaler is correct. You cannot heal past your first click, and if you're not healing then you can't place a track token.

Renard

09/02/2010, 18:46

No, you can use steal energy on your first click, but that doesn't mean that you can HEAL on your first click.
and from the glossary

If Morlun is on his first click, he is not restoring health that has been reduced or turning his dial in a counterclockwise direction. Thus, I say that no healing takes place, and therefore no tracking token is placed.

I still think you can use steal energy and heal on your first click, it's just that will not heal past your first click.

I think it progresses this way:
1. Make an attack with steal energy
2. Attack hits, steal energy heals you one click
3. But Morlun is on his first click so he 'heals' because the power was active, however he will not heal past his first click

In other words if I were judging I would rule that Morlun can place a tracking token on his first click because I believe Morlun is using Steal Energy and is 'healed' but because it is his first click he won't heal past it.

vlad3theimpaler

09/02/2010, 20:07

Harpua

09/02/2010, 20:55

HEALING: Restoring health that has been reduced by damage by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction.
Nothing is being restored.
There has been no damage.
The combat dial is not turning in a counter-clockwise direction.

I don't see how there is a question. There is clearly no healing occurring.

If there's no healing, Morlun has not been healed.

If Morlun has not been healed, no tracking token is placed.

Renard

09/02/2010, 21:04

Nothing is being restored.
There has been no damage.
The combat dial is not turning in a counter-clockwise direction.

I don't see how there is a question. There is clearly no healing occurring.

If there's no healing, Morlun has not been healed.

If Morlun has not been healed, no tracking token is placed.

I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I interpreted before as Morlun is being healed it's just that healing him on his first click leads to no net healing not because he isn't being healed (because a close combat attack using steal energy heals him) but because his first click cannot be healed onto any other click. But I see now that this is not the case, and it's too bad it makes Morlun a lot less playable I don't want to phone booth an 8 click life 11 atk 18 imp 4 dam 180 pt fig.
I'm sure anyone can understand what I mean regarding healing. After all you can use Support targeting a fig on their first click. So the healing can land and take place, however the net heal on the target will just be 0 because they can't heal past their first click.

Harpua

09/02/2010, 21:06

Questions

09/03/2010, 09:59

Oh, I see your viewpoint. It's almost a reverse of how Bagman takes damage.

Does this mean the issue remains open? Maybe Bagman needs a second look? :)

realdarkphoenix

09/03/2010, 12:24

So he's being healed for 0 meaning he still drops the token right?

Harpua

09/03/2010, 13:34

Nothing is being restored.
There has been no damage.
The combat dial is not turning in a counter-clockwise direction.

I don't see how there is a question. There is clearly no healing occurring.

If there's no healing, Morlun has not been healed.

If Morlun has not been healed, no tracking token is placed.

Oh, I see your viewpoint. It's almost a reverse of how Bagman takes damage.

Does this mean the issue remains open? Maybe Bagman needs a second look? :)

As I said above, my initial thought is that there is no healing, so there'd be no token.

Then, I got to thinking about the ruling on Bagman. (On his last click, if he's hit for 4, he takes 4 even though one click KOs him. You take 4 "feedback" damage.)

So I can see this going that way.

As a result, I posed the question to the RA and other deps. The RA has responded that his gut feeling is that he would be considered to have healed, but that he could also see it going either way. He's going to take up to the higher level and awai a response. For now, though, you have his answer.

Questions

09/03/2010, 13:50

As a result, I posed the question to the RA and other deps. The RA has responded that his gut feeling is that he would be considered to have healed, but that he could also see it going either way. He's going to take up to the higher level and awai a response. For now, though, you have his answer.

Wow. Two rulings that don't follow any of the written rules. The Player's Guide is going into overdrive.

Hoping GD doesn't rely on one bad ruling to support another.

normalview

09/03/2010, 14:05

Wow. Two rulings that don't follow any of the written rules. The Player's Guide is going into overdrive.

Hoping GD doesn't rely on one bad ruling to support another.

Nothing in the written rules specifically says that these things can't happen either.

Questions

09/03/2010, 14:10

Nothing in the written rules specifically says that these things can't happen either.

If you review the posts on the past two pages and apply the English language, the rulebook clearly would not lead to the ruling that nbperp has suggested. (I can rehash the argument if it's necessary to make the point.) It's only when you apply the Bagman ruling, which also doesn't follow anything in the rulebook, that you get this result. This is one bad ruling leading to another. And once we start down this road, it's very difficult to course correct.

Spider-Dave

09/03/2010, 14:26

I can certainly understand this viewpoint, I interpreted before as Morlun is being healed it's just that healing him on his first click leads to no net healing not because he isn't being healed (because a close combat attack using steal energy heals him) but because his first click cannot be healed onto any other click. But I see now that this is not the case, and it's too bad it makes Morlun a lot less playable I don't want to phone booth an 8 click life 11 atk 18 imp 4 dam 180 pt fig.
I'm sure anyone can understand what I mean regarding healing. After all you can use Support targeting a fig on their first click. So the healing can land and take place, however the net heal on the target will just be 0 because they can't heal past their first click.

He's still very playable (and from the first time I saw him I assumed you can't place a token if he hits while on his first click). If Morlun isn't taking any damage...well you're winning pretty handily anyway!

normalview

09/03/2010, 14:27

If you review the posts on the past two pages and apply the English language, the rulebook clearly would not lead to the ruling that nbperp has suggested. (I can rehash the argument if it's necessary to make the point.) It's only when you apply the Bagman ruling, which also doesn't follow anything in the rulebook, that you get this result. This is one bad ruling leading to another. And once we start down this road, it's very difficult to course correct.

Not true.

Morlun, for example, can't heal past his starting line. Fine. Doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't healed... just that the healing doesn't really do anything.

Again, nothing in the rules specifically says that these things can't happen.

Questions

09/03/2010, 14:34

Not true.

Morlun, for example, can't heal past his starting line. Fine. Doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't healed... just that the healing doesn't really do anything.

Again, nothing in the rules specifically says that these things can't happen.

From the Blackest Night Glossary:
HEALING: Restoring health that has been reduced by damage by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction.

If there is no clicking then there is no healing. It's right there in black and white.

normalview

09/03/2010, 14:40

From the Blackest Night Glossary:

If there is no clicking then there is no healing. It's right there in black and white.

I get that you don't like it; frankly, I thought the same thing Harpua did when I first read it.

But, as I stated before, while the healing didn't really do anything, doesn't mean that healing wasn't attempted/tried/used/whatever-verb-indicating that-it-sort-of-happened-you-care-to-use. The rule book does not specifically disallow this interpretation.

Questions

09/03/2010, 14:48

I get that you don't like it; frankly, I thought the same thing Harpua did when I first read it.

It's not about like it or don't like it. It's about applying the rules that we have. If all the references to healing were errataed so that this power worked differently, then that's fine. I'm guessing that's not going to happen. If that isn't going to happen, we need to use the rules that we have and here the rules actually are crystal clear. I haven't actually seen one quote from the rulebook which says otherwise. When one party is quoting every passage of the rulebook and the other party isn't, it's generally obvious which way a ruling should go. The only ruling against this is Bagman and Bagman isn't a written rule yet and isn't supported by the written rules either.

But, as I stated before, while the healing didn't really do anything, doesn't mean that healing wasn't attempted/tried/used/whatever-verb-indicating that-it-sort-of-happened-you-care-to-use. The rule book does not specifically disallow this interpretation.

But you're not applying the written rules. The rules clearly say clicking must happen for healing. The rulebook completely disallows your interpretation. Can I use Support on character that is on its first click? Yes. But the character will not be healed as defined by the rules. Support is used, but no healing happens. Two different terms. What you are doing is making up your own definition for a term that is actually defined in the rulebook.

You cannot attempt/try/use/or whatever-verb-indicating that-it-sort-of-happened-you-care-to-use with healing. (You can with Support or Steal Energy, but not healing.) Healing happens or it does not happen. There is no try. :)

normalview

09/03/2010, 14:54

It's not about like it or don't like it. It's about applying the rules that we have. If all the references to healing were errataed so that this power worked differently, then that's fine. I'm guessing that's not going to happen. If that isn't going to happen, we need to use the rules that we have and here the rules actually are crystal clear. I haven't actually seen one quote from the rulebook which says otherwise. When one party is quoting every passage of the rulebook and the other party isn't, it's generally obvious which way a ruling should go. The only ruling against this is Bagman and Bagman isn't a written rule yet and isn't supported by the written rules either.

But you're not applying the written rules. The rules clearly say clicking must happen for healing. The rulebook completely disallows your interpretation. Can I use Support on character that is on its first click? Yes. But the character will not be healed as defined by the rules. Support is used, but no healing happens. Two different terms. What you are doing is making up your own definition for a term that is actually defined in the rulebook.

You cannot attempt/try/use/or whatever-verb-indicating that-it-sort-of-happened-you-care-to-use with healing. (You can with Support or Steal Energy, but not healing.) Healing happens or it does not happen. There is no try. :)

If that's the way you feel, that's your look out.

Besides, how do you know there isn't going to be an errata? We've been told that Norm thinks it should work this way (pending WK approval, which may or may not happen), but that doesn't mean something isn't going to to wind up in player's guide, either.

Dremak

09/03/2010, 15:03

I'm understanding the argument, but disagree with the "healing activated" bit. It doesn't look like "steal energy"/"support" says heal, therefore heal has been activated before you are told the heal does nothing. It looks like the power says heal, and the healing rules say "no you can't." Explanation in order:

STEAL ENERGY (NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from
a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

"Heal" generates a rule check on what heal means/does/can do.

HEALING
Characters can have their damage healed through the use of powers like Regeneration, Steal Energy, and Support, as well as through other game effects. When a character is healed of damage, turn its combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to the damage healed. A character can’t heal beyond its starting line. A character with multiple starting lines can’t be healed beyond the starting line that it began with in a particular game.

The definition of healing itself says no. Straight up. It doesn't reduce healing to zero, or even effectively do so.

"Heal this character of one damage." "Character is on first click." "A character cannot be healed beyond its starting line." Does not yield "i'm healing up to the starting line, meaning zero." It yields quite exactly "Heal this character, you cannot heal this character."

It isn't functionally different for support. you can attempt to heal a character with support when on their first click, but it just doesn't happen.

As for the bagman ruling, it shouldn't be ruled, it should be errated. "Deal feedback damage to a character who damages bagman equal to the damage value of that character after all replacements and modifiers have been applied." Or something similar.

Questions

09/03/2010, 15:04

If that's the way you feel, that's your look out.

If you'd care to quote the rulebook in response, I'm open to the other argument using the rulebook as a source.

Besides, how do you know there isn't going to be an errata? We've been told that Norm thinks it should work this way (pending WK approval, which may or may not happen), but that doesn't mean something isn't going to to wind up in player's guide, either.

I don't, but the appropriate errata would be unprecedented. (Plus I would hope you would be against it since you just made the argument recently that we should try to reduce errata, not make more.) The appropriate errata would need to errata the entire section on healing on page 9 and in the glossary. (It would also leave two other references to healing feeling clunky.) I do not foresee such an expansive errata happening. Rather I envision a "clarification" for Bagman (is it really a clarification when it clearly changes the rules) and a similar "clarification" for Morlun. I then expect that all future rulings will rely on these "clarifications" rather than the black and white printed rules. I just would rather not see the game treated in that manner, but maybe that's the direction it's headed. If so.... :(

Questions

09/03/2010, 15:07

As for the bagman ruling, it shouldn't be ruled, it should be errated. "Deal feedback damage to a character who damages bagman equal to the damage value of that character after all replacements and modifiers have been applied." Or something similar.

Bagman doesn't need an errata. It needs logic.

Whenever Bombastic Bag-Man takes damage from an attack, deal the attacker penetrating damage equal to the damage taken by Bombastic Bag-Man. Bombastic Bag-Man can't be healed except by the Fantastic Four team ability.

DAMAGE TAKEN: The number of clockwise clicks applied to a target.

How many clicks until you KO? 3. Then you take 3. (It doesn't matter if he was dealt 100; he takes 3.)

Dremak

09/03/2010, 15:12

Bagman doesn't need an errata. It needs logic.

How many clicks until you KO? 3. Then you take 3. (It doesn't matter if he was dealt 100; he takes 3.)

I was merely addressing the fact that the ruling seemed to be based on some idea of how the power was intended to work as vs. how it does, and that if they want it to work such that damage dealt=damage dealt regardless of the health of the figure, they should simply reword the power instead of making a nonsensical ruling that causes other problems or changing the rules.

jackstar7

09/03/2010, 15:12

Bagman doesn't need an errata. It needs logic.

How many clicks until you KO? 3. Then you take 3. (It doesn't matter if he was dealt 100; he takes 3.)

Well, with the alternative ruling pending, I think the wording for Bagman would just need to be changed to Damage Dealt, as that is a value and a known and understood one.

Questions

09/03/2010, 15:16

I was merely addressing the fact that the ruling seemed to be based on some idea of how the power was intended to work as vs. how it does, and that if they want it to work such that damage dealt=damage dealt regardless of the health of the figure, they should simply reword the power instead of making a nonsensical ruling that causes other problems or changing the rules.

Well, with the alternative ruling pending, I think the wording for Bagman would just need to be changed to Damage Dealt, as that is a value and a known and understood one.

It's funny that you should both say that (and I agree that if "they" want it to work as it has been presented then that is a much better fix than what has been suggested) because if "they" want Morlun to operate differently then "they" should just errata him too, not muck up the rules.

Example:
Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun uses Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

That would do what normalview is talking about, without mucking up the rules.

Dremak

09/03/2010, 15:21

Sounds like done, and done, to me. Either they work as currently worded, or send those simple errata to print. To need for rulings or rules changes. It is madness. And very possibly SPARTA.

normalview

09/03/2010, 15:35

If you'd care to quote the rulebook in response, I'm open to the other argument using the rulebook as a source.

Seeing as how the whole point of what I was saying was that nothing in the rule book specifically says you can't do such a things, I guess that the quote would look something like this:

[does not exit]

;)

Plus I would hope you would be against it since you just made the argument recently that we should try to reduce errata, not make more.

What I said was that redundancy should be eliminated and errata and clarifications should be kept to only what is necessary. If Morlun and Bagman are meant to work this way, I'd definitely call any clarification made "necessary", no?

Questions

09/03/2010, 15:49

Seeing as how the whole point of what I was saying was that nothing in the rule book specifically says you can't do such a things, I guess that the quote would look something like this:

[does not exit]

;)

I'm actually not sure if I know what you were saying. :surprised I think your argument was that using the rulebook this could go either way. (You made an unavailing argument to that effect earlier.) My argument is that using the rulebook and the way Morlun is worded today, there is only one way for it to be ruled; it would take a major errata to the rules to change it and a "clarification" should not be sufficent.

What I said was that redundancy should be eliminated and errata and clarifications should be kept to only what is necessary. If Morlun and Bagman are meant to work this way, I'd definitely call any clarification made "necessary", no?

Just hoping that there is actually an errata to their effects and not a errata to the rules pretending to be a "clarification" (which sadly is what I expect. :()

Dremak

09/03/2010, 16:05

Seeing as how the whole point of what I was saying was that nothing in the rule book specifically says you can't do such a things

The rules don't say that you CAN either. They actually fairly specifically say that you can't.

"A character can’t heal beyond its starting line." Is pretty specific. Rearrange the sentence maintaining the exact same meaning.

A character on its starting line can’t be healed.

Grammatical additions are Italics, only "beyond" has been removed.

If the original text was clear (and it is), this simple exercise makes it unmistakable.

Not to mention, "doesn't say you can't" isn't much of an argument. The rulebook doesn't "specifically say I can't" do alot of things. Does that mean I should assume I can? The rules specify the sorts of things you CAN do in the game, and then restricts those CANs with CANNOTs. It is ridiculous to assume anything that isn't noted under a list of CANNOTs is automatically a CAN.

Especially here because it DOES quite specifically say CANNOT.

vlad3theimpaler

09/03/2010, 16:24

I'm with Questions 100% on this one. The rulebook definitions specifically refer to healing and damage taken as turning the dial, so under the rules as written, Morlun and Bagman both require the dial to actually be turned for their traits to work. If it is ruled the other way, I will play it like that, but I don't see how that would be compatible with the definitions in the rulebook.
However, this wouldn't be the first time that a glossary definition in the rulebook has been errataed; I recall having a lengthy debate about what an attack is in game terms, arguing from the glossary definition until I was told that the glossary itself was in error, and it did subsequently get a note in the player's guide.
If the rules text is in error, that's fine. But I do agree with Questions that there certainly is an appearance of the rules being changed to fit better with how the characters are "supposed" to work instead of the other way around. I'm not saying that is necessarily the case, but I don't really think anyone can be faulted for perceiving it that way.

Renard

09/03/2010, 16:36

I'm understanding the argument, but disagree with the "healing activated" bit. It doesn't look like "steal energy"/"support" says heal, therefore heal has been activated before you are told the heal does nothing. It looks like the power says heal, and the healing rules say "no you can't." Explanation in order:

"Heal" generates a rule check on what heal means/does/can do.

The definition of healing itself says no. Straight up. It doesn't reduce healing to zero, or even effectively do so.

"Heal this character of one damage." "Character is on first click." "A character cannot be healed beyond its starting line." Does not yield "i'm healing up to the starting line, meaning zero." It yields quite exactly "Heal this character, you cannot heal this character."

It isn't functionally different for support. you can attempt to heal a character with support when on their first click, but it just doesn't happen.

As for the bagman ruling, it shouldn't be ruled, it should be errated. "Deal feedback damage to a character who damages bagman equal to the damage value of that character after all replacements and modifiers have been applied." Or something similar.

I'm not sure that these things follow each other. I don't think "Heal this character of one damage" and "Character is on first click" and "A character cannot be healed beyond its starting line" yields "you cannot heal this character"

Cannot be healed beyond to me says quite clearly that the healing is taking place, however it just will not go beyond the first click. Or in other words, if on the first click the healing takes place it just leads to no net effect.

Another example:
Like Harpua said with Bag-man, let's say there is a fig on it's second click. You heal that fig with Support for 3 clicks of damage. You are 'healing' 3 clicks, however the starting line makes the net heal 1. It seems to me with Morlun if he uses Steal Energy on his first click he is 'healing' 1 click, but the starting line makes the net heal 0.

normalview

09/03/2010, 16:36

I'm actually not sure if I know what you were saying. :surprised I think your argument was that using the rulebook this could go either way. (You made an unavailing argument to that effect earlier.) My argument is that using the rulebook and the way Morlun is worded today, there is only one way for it to be ruled; it would take a major errata to the rules to change it and a "clarification" should not be sufficent.

You know what would be awesome? Going back and checking what people say before drawing conclusions. I never said that the rule book could go either way. What I said was:

Nothing in the written rules specifically says that these things can't happen either.

So if there exists no portion of the rules that says that this can't work, there is nothing to quote, is there?

You asked me to provide a rule quote, though. That's like I say to you, "There is no photographic evidence that Leperchauns exist."

Then you respond by saying, "Well then, can you produce those photographs?"

I just said that such photos don't exist :laugh: Which was the whole point of the [blank]... since the rules don't specifically say it can't happen, there is nothing I can quote.

Renard

09/03/2010, 16:42

"HEALING: Restoring health that has been reduced by damage by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction."

further I believe that being healed via Support or Steal Energy when a fig is on its first click does not contradict this above statement. My fig is healed, I will click the dial in a counterclockwise direction but since I am on the first click the starting line prohibits me from clicking past that point leading to a net heal of 0 clicks.

Questions

09/03/2010, 16:50

You know what would be awesome? Going back and checking what people say before drawing conclusions. I never said that the rule book could go either way. What I said was:

So if there exists no portion of the rules that says that this can't work, there is nothing to quote, is there?

You asked me to provide a rule quote, though. That's like I say to you, "There is no photographic evidence that Leperchauns exist."

Then you respond by saying, "Well then, can you produce those photographs?"

I just said that such photos don't exist :laugh: Which was the whole point of the [blank]... since the rules don't specifically say it can't happen, there is nothing I can quote.

Since you're complaining that I'm not reading what you wrote, I would think you would make sure to read what I wrote. Like I just said, I'm not sure what you are arguing. I then stated what I think you are arguing. As such, it may or may not be what you are arguing. But you definitely haven't done anything to make your argument more clear to me.

Putting everything aside, what is your argument?

Dremak

09/03/2010, 16:56

Renard

09/03/2010, 17:03

The "beyond" part of the definition is specifically there to tell you that you have to stop there when healing from somewhere that isn't the first click. It is a simple catch-all.

"by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction." directly contradicts "A character cannot be healed beyond its starting line." when the starting line is visible.

No click, no heal.

Look at it this way:
How do I tighten a screw? By turning the screw clockwise.
When can't i tighten a screw? When the screw can no longer be turned clockwise.

How do I heal a clix? by clicking the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction
When can't I heal a clix? when I cannot click the combat dial of a character in a counterclockwise direction. ie, when it is on its first click.

I understand your position, and I know they'll make a final ruling on it. I just think in your above example:
V Boss uses power Tighten Screw on me (R Laborer haha), giving me a free action to tighten screw
I try to tighten screw, however screw is already at max tightness
Therefore it follows that the screw tightening took place, however because the screw was at max tightness it just couldn't be tightened any more.

normalview

09/03/2010, 17:05

Since you're complaining that I'm not reading what you wrote, I would think you would make sure to read what I wrote. Like I just said, I'm not sure what you are arguing. I then stated what I think you are arguing. As such, it may or may not be what you are arguing. But you definitely haven't done anything to make your argument more clear to me.

I did read your post. And since I've been saying the same thing since my very first post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you're not really reading anything I say (hence my last post):

Putting everything aside, what is your argument?

See my very first post:

Nothing in the written rules specifically says that these things can't happen either.

All on its own, the absence of something isn't enough to formulate a rule (For example, the rules also don't say anything about kicking your opponent in the shins, but I bet most of wouldn't try that).

But it is pretty hard for a ruling to be contradicted by something that doesn't exist, too. So, since the rules doesn't speficially say that Norm's proposed ruling can't happen, there is no reason why that ruling can't be made.

Questions

09/03/2010, 17:06

I try to tighten screw, however screw is already at max tightness
Therefore it follows that the screw tightening took place, however because the screw was at max tightness it just couldn't be tightened any more.

And that's really the point. Trying to do something and doing something are two different things.

Dremak

09/03/2010, 17:10

I understand your position, and I know they'll make a final ruling on it. I just think in your above example:
V Boss uses power Tighten Screw on me (R Laborer haha), giving me a free action to tighten screw
I try to tighten screw, however screw is already at max tightness
Therefore it follows that the screw tightening took place, however because the screw was at max tightness it just couldn't be tightened any more. That doesn't mean that I didn't try to tighten it.

I understand what you are saying, I debate the logic.

I try to tighten screw, however screw is already at max tightness

Therefore it follows that the screw tightening took place, <-break in logic, you tried, and failed because "screw is already at max tightness" therefore screw was NOT tightened, because:

however because the screw was at max tightness it just couldn't be tightened any more.

That doesn't mean that I didn't try to tighten it You tried. Try != do.

This argument is nearly exactly the same as:

Superman takes an action to use hypersonic speed, Kid Flash says "other character cannot use hypersonic speed" and you give your superman a token saying you tried and failed, and then using that try to activate a power that says "when you use hypersonic speed..."

Incidently, I feel like norm is missing the whole argument about the rules. Unless you are debating whether you can make a ruling about this issue.

Renard

09/03/2010, 17:12

And that's really the point. Trying to do something and doing something are two different things.

That really is the point I think. Healing net 0 or net 3 is still healing. It's doing something and doing something.

Questions

09/03/2010, 17:14

I did read your post. And since I've been saying the same thing since my very first post, the only conclusion I can come to is that you're not really reading anything I say (hence my last post):

Or rather, I'm not understanding you. Just because someone writes something doesn't mean it is understood.

See my very first post:

Nothing in the written rules specifically says that these things can't happen either.

Repeating yourself doesn't help me understand you. Try reframing your post in a different way to help me (the reader) to understand what you are trying to convey. When I read that sentence I think it means that you believe that the written rules can go either way on this. But you said that is not what you mean. Help me the reader understand you.

But it is pretty hard for a ruling to be contradicted by something that doesn't exist, too. So, since the rules doesn't speficially say that Norm's proposed ruling can't happen, there is no reason why that ruling can't be made.

As I argued before, the rules are in conflict with nbperp's proposed clarification (other than the fact that the clarification will be a rule.)

That really is the point I think. Healing net 0 or net 3 is still healing. It's doing something and doing something.

Healing 0 is not healing. Healing requires clicking.

Renard

09/03/2010, 17:18

I understand what you are saying, I debate the logic.

I try to tighten screw, however screw is already at max tightness

Therefore it follows that the screw tightening took place, <-break in logic, you tried, and failed because "screw is already at max tightness" therefore screw was NOT tightened, because:

however because the screw was at max tightness it just couldn't be tightened any more.

That doesn't mean that I didn't try to tighten it You tried. Try != do.

This argument is nearly exactly the same as:

Superman takes an action to use hypersonic speed, Kid Flash says "other character cannot use hypersonic speed" and you give your superman a token saying you tried and failed, and then using that try to activate a power that says "when you use hypersonic speed..."

Well it might have gotten lost in the translation of trying to make a humorous real world example of a game example.

I'll make it clearer:

1. When using xxx power, heal this character of yyy damage
2. A character cannot be healed beyond it's first click
This logically does not lead to a character on it's first click cannot be healed, it's leads simply to a character cannot be healed beyond it's first click. I still argue the healing takes place with a net heal of 0.

realdarkphoenix

09/03/2010, 17:21

The problem is you can't be damage when your dead or K.O'd But you can be healed (even if you dont actually heal a click) when your at full life.

If im at full life and Nurse uses support and I get 1 click of healing Its still a successful heal even if it doesn't actually heal me. And there lay's the problem, you are successfully healed even if you dont heal a click.

Which makes me think that the person gets a token

Questions

09/03/2010, 17:24

Renard

09/03/2010, 17:30

You're not looking at the whole thing.

From the Blackest Night Glossary:

To heal, you must restore health. There must have been damage taken. You must click the combat dial.

You can't only look at one part of the rules and say that's it...done with the argument. If it was that easy, I could move through hindering terrain without stopping because Page 3 of the rules says I can move anywhere.

Being healed and using Support are two different things. Nurse can use Support on a character that is on its first click. Nurse will get a token for using Support. But the character on is first click will not be healed.

No that's right Questions, I noticed it before when it was posted and that's obviously the crux of the argument against healing/steal energy etc. on your first click ("restoring health that has been reduced by damage"), if that is the end-all definition of healing. But I still feel that healing takes place, because you can use Support targeting a fig on it's first click. You still have to land the attack, you can still critically miss and damage the fig, but if successful the Support will land however it just won't heal past the first click.

Dremak

09/03/2010, 17:32

Well it might have gotten lost in the translation of trying to make a humorous real world example of a game example.

I'll make it clearer:

1. When using xxx power, heal this character of yyy damage
2. A character cannot be healed beyond it's first click
This logically does not lead to a character on it's first click cannot be healed, it's leads simply to a character cannot be healed beyond it's first click. I still argue the healing takes place with a net heal of 0.

That isn't where it breaks. It breaks in the definition of what healing is.

Healing is defined as turning the dial counterclockwise.

"heal character x clicks"

"a character cannot be healed beyond its first click"

+ "healing=turning the dial counterclockwise"

STEAL ENERGY (NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from
a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

HEALING
Characters can have their damage healed through the use of powers like Regeneration, Steal Energy, and Support, as well as through other game effects. When a character is healed of damage, turn its combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to the damage healed. A character can’t heal beyond its starting line. A character with multiple starting lines can’t be healed beyond the starting line that it began with in a particular game.

Let us interlay the rules by replacing relevant references to rules with the rules text to make one statement referring to the situation:

STEAL ENERGY (NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from
a close combat attack made by this character, turn this character's combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to 1 damage. A character can’t turn its combat dial counterclockwise beyond its starting line.

Edit: For the purpose of throughness:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun turns its combat dial counterclockwise using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

Red=Steal Energy text
Blue=Healing text
Purple = Healing text referencing itself.

Should seem pretty clear now. I haven't even paraphrased of changed any words.

Also, as questions said, Support, Steal Energy, and Healing are separate things separately defined.

I can make a Close Combat Attack, and have it be Evaded, and never actually Deal Damage.

I can also make a Support action, and have it be Miss or Critically fail or never actually Heal a Hit target.

Questions

09/03/2010, 17:40

No that's right Questions, I noticed it before when it was posted and that's obviously the crux of the argument against healing/steal energy etc. on your first click ("restoring health that has been reduced by damage"), if that is the end-all definition of healing.

That is what a glossary is suppose to do. :)

But I still feel that healing takes place, because you can use Support targeting a fig on it's first click. You still have to land the attack, you can still critically miss and damage the fig, but if successful the Support will land however it just won't heal past the first click.

If that was a good argument then I should automatically damage a character with Invulnerability if I roll a critical hit even if I only have a 1 damage value. I took the risk. I still have to land the attack. I can still critically miss and damage my own character. But that is not the rule.

No one is making you use Support on a character on its first click. If you were forced to, I might agree. But that's a decision you're making of your own choice so you take the risk and get no reward (normally) if you succeed.

By the way, I still agree the Support was successful. You just don't heal. Successful Support does not always mean healing. Won't heal (your words) means no healing.

Renard

09/03/2010, 17:57

That is what a glossary is suppose to do. :)

If that was a good argument then I should automatically damage a character with Invulnerability if I roll a critical hit even if I only have a 1 damage value. I took the risk. I still have to land the attack. I can still critically miss and damage my own character. But that is not the rule.

No one is making you use Support on a character on its first click. If you were forced to, I might agree. But that's a decision you're making of your own choice so you take the risk and get no reward (normally) if you succeed.

By the way, I still agree the Support was successful. You just don't heal. Successful Support does not always mean healing. Won't heal (your words) means no healing.

I don't follow the invulnerability part. I was just simply stating that I believe a fig can be successfully Supported and healed on the first click. But the only net results will be 0 healing (if successful, or if the Support roll misses) or -1 (if the Support roll is a critical miss). I also was not saying anyone would make a person use Support on a character on its first click. It can be done however. I still believe the Support would be successful, and healing would take place it would just be reduced to 0 if on the first click. It's the same as healing 3 on the second click is reduced to 1.

And maybe you are taking one thing out of context here: "Won't heal (your words) means no healing."
Actually I said "...if successful the Support will land however it just won't heal past the first click."
I think the healing is taking place however it will not heal past the first click.

Renard

09/03/2010, 18:00

That isn't where it breaks. It breaks in the definition of what healing is.

Healing is defined as turning the dial counterclockwise.

"heal character x clicks"

"a character cannot be healed beyond its first click"

+ "healing=turning the dial counterclockwise"

Let us interlay the rules by replacing relevant references to rules with the rules text to make one statement referring to the situation:

Edit: For the purpose of throughness:

Red=Steal Energy text
Blue=Healing text
Purple = Healing text referencing itself.

Should seem pretty clear now. I haven't even paraphrased of changed any words.

Also, as questions said, Support, Steal Energy, and Healing are separate things separately defined.

I can make a Close Combat Attack, and have it be Evaded, and never actually Deal Damage.

I can also make a Support action, and have it be Miss or Critically fail or never actually Heal a Hit target.

Thanks for the response Dremak. However I don't think Healing= turning the dial counterclockwise, I believe the turning the dial counterclockwise is a result of healing. Healing on the first click just means you'll be definitely turning the dial counterclockwise less times than on any other click you might be healed on.

Questions

09/03/2010, 18:17

Thanks for the response Dremak. However I don't think Healing= turning the dial counterclockwise, I believe the turning the dial counterclockwise is a result of healing. Healing on the first click just means you'll be definitely turning the dial counterclockwise less times than on any other click you might be healed on.

Yet the glossary clearly says that healing does equal turning the dial.

Renard

09/03/2010, 18:28

"HEALING
Characters can have their damage healed through the use of powers like Regeneration, Steal Energy, and Support, as well as through other game effects. When a character is healed of damage, turn its combat dial counterclockwise a number of times equal to the damage healed. A character can’t heal beyond its starting line. A character with multiple starting lines can’t be healed beyond the starting line that it began with in a particular game."

I'm playing a match. I forget which one of my figs got injured but I think it's R Thor. I don't know his dial at all. I attempt to Support R Thor with Diana Prince. The Support roll is successful, which heals R Thor for 3 damage. To be clear, R Thor is being healed of 3 damage. I start to turn R Thor's dial and see that he is on his first click, which he cannot be healed past. So to summarize R Thor has been healed of 3 damage, but since he is on his first click the net result is 0 but the heal still took place following these steps outlined in the HEALING paragraph I took from Dremak above who I'm guessing took it from the rulebook.

Questions

09/03/2010, 18:53

Renard

09/03/2010, 19:13

At this point I just have to assume you refuse to look at the glossary.

From the Blackest Night Glossary:

Since you did not click Thor, there was no healing.

Well I could go into why I disagree with this, but I feel as if we are going in circles. As I stated before I'll just wait for the final ruling.

vlad3theimpaler

09/04/2010, 01:20

Well I could go into why I disagree with this, but I feel as if we are going in circles. As I stated before I'll just wait for the final ruling.

Perhaps I might interject here to point out that the problem seems to be that there is a very narrow definition in the glossary of the rulebook, which is what Questions and I have quoted in our arguments. There is also the section on healing earlier in the rulebook, which you have quoted and is phrased in a more open manner. Questions and I have both gone with the glossary definition, as that seems like the logical place to find the precise definition of a term.
And if the glossary definition is correct, which we have to assume it is unless specifically told otherwise, then no healing takes place with out actually turning the dial. However there is also a possibility that the glossary definition itself is incorrect (which has happened before) and will itself need errata. If that is the case, and the glossary definition is altered, then Morlun's trait will absolutely work on his first click. I have not seen an official post saying that the glossary is incorrect in this situation, if there is one, you may direct me to it and I will shut my yap.
However, if we go by the definition in the glossary of what healing is, there is categorically no way that healing can occur on a character's first click, including "healing for 0." There actually is no such thing as healing for 0 under the current glossary definition.
If it is the case that the glossary definition is incorrect, I hope that an offical errata comes for it as soon as possible, and hopefully the glossary in the rulebook for the Fantastic Four reprint will take into account any corrections.

Captain Krueger

09/04/2010, 02:01

I just to point out that an attack that deal 0 damage ends up doing no damage at all when it comes to activates powers or abilities that triggers when damage are taken (I'm pretty sure that has been ruled that way, at least) : a 0 damage attack don't trigger Mystics, for example. I cannot think of any reason why healing won't work the same way, since healing damage is very similar to taking damage (it's all about turning the dial one way or another).
Because of that (and everything that Questions, vlad3theimpaler and others have said), I agree too that Morlun wont mark anybody on his first clic (except if he can somehow damage itself in the same action, before applying Steal Energy's healing effect).

Cliffjumper

09/04/2010, 02:35

I would say that the Steal Energy will fire off first especially since its nonoptional...then its up to your opponent to retaliate with the Mystic damage if they choose to and or remember.

vlad3theimpaler

09/04/2010, 03:23

I would say that the Steal Energy will fire off first especially since its nonoptional...then its up to your opponent to retaliate with the Mystic damage if they choose to and or remember.

The nonoptional part doesn't affect the timing, they both say that they occur when you deal damage to a character. The active player chooses the order for resolving simultaneous events. Now, your opponent could choose to not use Mystics, because team abilities are optional. However, because it occurs at the same time as steal energy, he cannot wait until AFTER you use steal energy to decide whether or not to use Mystics.

Questions

09/04/2010, 05:23

I would say that the Steal Energy will fire off first especially since its nonoptional...then its up to your opponent to retaliate with the Mystic damage if they choose to and or remember.

First, if you are aware of your opponent's Mystics you must deal with it. You cannot just skip it because your opponent says nothing. (But that is an argument for a different thread, so if people want to discuss this, start a different thread.)

That said, no one is arguing whether Morlun can use Steal Energy. And the situation doesn't have anything to do with Mystics (anymore) because if Mystics is involved, like vlad3theimpaler said, you can apply the Mystics damage then apply Steal Energy along with healing in which case you can place a tracking token.

The current issue is whether Morlun is healed when he is on his first click (no Mystics, etc.) Now no one is arguing whether Morlun is using Steal Energy. Morlun is using Steal Energy whether healing occurs or not. The trait, as written, is more specific. It says when Morlun is healed using Steal Energy. The argument is that Morlun is not "healed" unless clicks are applied to his dial.

Going back to an earlier post of mine, why specify that Morlun needs to be healed using Steal Energy unless something more was required? I can reference many special powers which just say: Whenever character X uses power Y, the following occurs. This has an additional element. It doesn't say whenever Morlun uses Steal Energy, the following occurs. It says whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy. Why include an additional element if healing from Steal Energy isn't different than using Steal Energy in the first place?

The nonoptional part doesn't affect the timing, they both say that they occur when you deal damage to a character. The active player chooses the order for resolving simultaneous events. Now, your opponent could choose to not use Mystics, because team abilities are optional. However, because it occurs at the same time as steal energy, he cannot wait until AFTER you use steal energy to decide whether or not to use Mystics.

Actually, they both occur when an opposing character takes damage.

On a side note, regardless of the timing of effects, if the opponent does not want to use Mystics, the opponent must cancel Mystics even before the attack roll. Optional abilities are on unless canceled in response to the declaration of an action.

From p. 15 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:
All abilities are optional unless “non-optional” appears in their descriptions; however, all abilities are assumed to be in effect during an action unless canceled at the beginning of that action.

Harpua

09/04/2010, 07:31

Perhaps I might interject here to point out that the problem seems to be that there is a very narrow definition in the glossary of the rulebook, which is what Questions and I have quoted in our arguments. There is also the section on healing earlier in the rulebook, which you have quoted and is phrased in a more open manner. Questions and I have both gone with the glossary definition, as that seems like the logical place to find the precise definition of a term.
And if the glossary definition is correct, which we have to assume it is unless specifically told otherwise, then no healing takes place with out actually turning the dial. However there is also a possibility that the glossary definition itself is incorrect (which has happened before) and will itself need errata. If that is the case, and the glossary definition is altered, then Morlun's trait will absolutely work on his first click. I have not seen an official post saying that the glossary is incorrect in this situation, if there is one, you may direct me to it and I will shut my yap.
However, if we go by the definition in the glossary of what healing is, there is categorically no way that healing can occur on a character's first click, including "healing for 0." There actually is no such thing as healing for 0 under the current glossary definition.
If it is the case that the glossary definition is incorrect, I hope that an offical errata comes for it as soon as possible, and hopefully the glossary in the rulebook for the Fantastic Four reprint will take into account any corrections.

It isn't "incorrect" so much as it should be considered, like the rest of the glossary, more of a basic guide to the game terms.

The primary definitions of terms have always been found in the actual text of the rules.

The entries in the glossary are there as a quick reference.

Attack rolls are used for more than just close or range combat attacks, for example.

vlad3theimpaler

09/04/2010, 09:18

It isn't "incorrect" so much as it should be considered, like the rest of the glossary, more of a basic guide to the game terms.

The primary definitions of terms have always been found in the actual text of the rules.

The entries in the glossary are there as a quick reference.

Attack rolls are used for more than just close or range combat attacks, for example.

Call me crazy, but I think that having an inaccurate glossary is worse than none at all. If there's no glossary, I'll look search the rulebook until I find the relevant text. If there is a glossary, I'm going to look at the glossary, read the definition, and think that it means what it says. I honestly do not see the point in having a glossary for a game as language dependent as this if we cannot rely on the the definitions to be accurate. Maybe the final pages of future rulebooks would be better served by just having an index giving the page numbers of where game terms are properly explained, instead of a glossary that has potentially misleading definitions.

larthosgrr8

09/04/2010, 09:59

all i can say is i'm gonna keep bashing faces in! until norm says i can't, i'm gonna put a tracking token on anyone i hit, even if i'm on click one! morlun is a beast and that's all that matters really.

it says when he uses steal energy, not when he's healed using steal energy. to be comic accurate, he'd put a token on you even on click one. one touch is all he needs. steal energy is non optional, so he CAN'T not use it. even if he doesn't benefit from what the power does. i think the wording is fine actually.

like RENARD said, if i need two clicks to be healed to full, and i roll a 6 on the support. i i was healed of 4 but only get two because i can't be healed past my first click. IMO he's still getting healed, but just can't get any stronger. it's all good in the end. i picked up mjolnir when i first played morlun and that was a thing of beauty! i'm glad that i could shed some light on an awesome fig that some might have over-looked!

Questions

09/04/2010, 12:28

it says when he uses steal energy, not when he's healed using steal energy.

If that is the case, I agree with you. The Units section on HCRealms says:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

It may be wrong. If it is wrong, I completely agree with what you said. But according to the Units section the power does say when he is healed using Steal Energy. (Wouldn't it be amusing if there was this multi-page debate based on an error in the Units section.)

to be comic accurate, he'd put a token on you even on click one. one touch is all he needs. steal energy is non optional, so he CAN'T not use it. even if he doesn't benefit from what the power does. i think the wording is fine actually.

And if that works for you, play it that way. But Heroclix has never been a game based on comic accuracy. Hopefully "they" are reading this and considering the long term effects, not just the short term ones.

like RENARD said, if i need two clicks to be healed to full, and i roll a 6 on the support. i i was healed of 4 but only get two because i can't be healed past my first click. IMO he's still getting healed, but just can't get any stronger. it's all good in the end. i picked up mjolnir when i first played morlun and that was a thing of beauty! i'm glad that i could shed some light on an awesome fig that some might have over-looked!

In that case, I agree healing took place. But he was healed for 2 clicks, not 4.

tmkac

09/04/2010, 12:50

If that is the case, I agree with you. The Units section on HCRealms says:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

It may be wrong. If it is wrong, I completely agree with what you said. But according to the Units section the power does say when he is healed using Steal Energy. (Wouldn't it be amusing if there was this multi-page debate based on an error in the Units section.)

Guess we'll have to wait until the 8th to find out. Unless someone has one they can scan the card for now and show :). You know how it goes. No one will believe until they see the card. Either way I hope I pull or can trade for him. Been looking forward to him since I read him in ASM.

Harpua

09/04/2010, 15:44

Guess we'll have to wait until the 8th to find out. Unless someone has one they can scan the card for now and show :). You know how it goes. No one will believe until they see the card. Either way I hope I pull or can trade for him. Been looking forward to him since I read him in ASM.

It says: "Psychic Vampire: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character’s character card."

larthosgrr8

09/04/2010, 18:34

It says: "Psychic Vampire: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character’s character card."

yeah, it says healed..i just looked. LAME!! who cares, he's still a beast for what he does! he's still gonna be played by me all the time. i think my new goal now is to see if i can even GET to use that power. let's see who can dmg him!!:devious:

Harpua

09/04/2010, 18:48

he's still gonna be played by me all the time.
< smack >Come on. He's gonna get played by whoever is sitting across from him.< / smack >

Questions

09/05/2010, 17:28

Just one other thought on this topic. Why should the game limit itself? Why not leave more tools in the toolbox? Why make using Support and healing the same thing? Rather, you can have game effects where using Support is required and you can have game effects where healing is required. This gives GD more tools with which to work. The same goes for damage dealt and damage taken. Why turn them into the same thing like the Bagman ruling would do? Why not leave them as two distinct things? Why not have effects which trigger off of damage dealt and effects which trigger off of damage taken? I think the more tools that GD has to work with, the better. This game already has actions v. attacks, moving v. placing, modifiers v. replacements. Why not keep the bag of tricks big instead of limiting it for no recognizable purpose?

I know it's a little late to toss that out there, but it was a recent thought and I hope "they" consider it.

jak7890

09/06/2010, 05:10

Man, I don't know if there's any point in my posting or not. Considering all of the "yelling" back and forth, I'm not sure that anyone's listening any more, but here's my take:

Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

(NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

Steal Energy is very specific in that it heals the attacking character of one damage. Steal Energy heals of 1 damage and does not heal of 0 damage.

This would indicate to me that Morlun's Psychic Vampire does not kick in on his first click because you cannot use Steal Energy to heal of 0 damage., and you cannot heal past his starting line (so you cannot use Steal Energy).

Radone

09/06/2010, 12:12

Why don't we look at the ruling for the X-men Titan Ability to solve this? 2 X-men are on their 1st click you want to ativate one can you swap clicks to activate the one with the activation click.

Questions

09/06/2010, 12:39

Why don't we look at the ruling for the X-men Titan Ability to solve this? 2 X-men are on their 1st click you want to ativate one can you swap clicks to activate the one with the activation click.

Yes. Let's use the X-Men ruling to solve this.

From the Player's Guide:
In order for a character to use the X-Men team ability, the adjacent character must be able to be healed.

In other words, you cannot heal on the first click.

vlad3theimpaler

09/06/2010, 20:42

Why don't we look at the ruling for the X-men Titan Ability to solve this? 2 X-men are on their 1st click you want to ativate one can you swap clicks to activate the one with the activation click.

Yes. Let's use the X-Men ruling to solve this.

From the Player's Guide:

In other words, you cannot heal on the first click.

That would seem to be consistent with the definition of healing in the glossary, and inconsistent with the ruling we've been given so far for Morlun.

Dremak

09/07/2010, 13:39

Why don't we look at the ruling for the X-men Titan Ability to solve this? 2 X-men are on their 1st click you want to ativate one can you swap clicks to activate the one with the activation click.

Rep to you sir. That pretty succinctly sums this up. That ruling is similar enough, and long standing enough to resolve this issue.

The other point about having the "is healed" text in the power is also very salient. Why differentiate "is healed" from "uses this power" if you aren't specifically pointing out that there is a case in which you use that power and are not healed by it, and additionally that it was important to the figure design that it work in that fashion?

A_Higher_Level

09/07/2010, 14:37

As much as I want Morlun to rock, his achilles heel is going to be the lack of movement powers after click 2. If your opponent blocks your line of sight by bases you with X-Ray, there's going to be some major suckage going on!

Harpua

09/07/2010, 15:55

Rep to you sir. That pretty succinctly sums this up. That ruling is similar enough, and long standing enough to resolve this issue.

The other point about having the "is healed" text in the power is also very salient. Why differentiate "is healed" from "uses this power" if you aren't specifically pointing out that there is a case in which you use that power and are not healed by it, and additionally that it was important to the figure design that it work in that fashion?

When considering my earlier answer, the X-Men ruling did not escape my attention.

Personally, I dismissed it as being a valid precedent for this situation.

The reason for that X-Men ruling was strictly to prevent a method of doing a quick activation click. It really has nothing to do with whether or not you can heal someone on click 1, so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

Dremak

09/07/2010, 16:57

When considering my earlier answer, the X-Men ruling did not escape my attention.

Personally, I dismissed it as being a valid precedent for this situation.

The reason for that X-Men ruling was strictly to prevent a method of doing a quick activation click. It really has nothing to do with whether or not you can heal someone on click 1, so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

I entirely understand that. The situation isn't want I feel makes it relevant, it is the specific wording. "must be able to be healed" fairly directly addresses the debated topic as to whether a character can be healed on their first click. That ruling depends on the idea that healing cannot occur on click #1. If morlun can drop a tracking token on his first click because he can heal for zero, then the ruling on x-men team ability would be invalidated and you would have to revisit it.

normalview

09/07/2010, 17:01

then the ruling on x-men team ability would be invalidated and you would have to revisit it.

Why is that, exactly?

This would not be the first time (faaaaaaar from it, in fact) where particular ruling or clarification created a specific exception to another rule.

Now whether the X-Men ruling is the standard or the exeception is open for debate, but that doesn't mean we can't have two rulings that are seemingly at odds.

Questions

09/07/2010, 17:05

Now whether the X-Men ruling is the standard or the exeception is open for debate, but that doesn't mean we can't have two rulings that are seemingly at odds.

Although I think many of us would be happier if we stopped having so many rulings which are seemingly at odds.

Dremak

09/07/2010, 17:24

Although I think many of us would be happier if we stopped having so many rulings which are seemingly at odds.

This, plus the seemingly is deceptive here. If one ruling says "healing cannot occur on the first click" and the other says "healing can occur on the first click" then they are directly contradictory, not merely "seemingly at odds."

Now is the intent of the ruling is to prevent forcing past activation clicks then errata the TA to simply say that it cannot be used on the first click, and make no mention of healing or not on the first click.

Contradictory rulings hiding out in the forums are even less desirable than multitudes of errata obviously printed in the published materials. Especially when the rulings seem to fly in the fact of what seems to be purposeful power design as discussed above. Why write "when morlun is healed by steal energy.." when you could write "when morlun makes a successfully deals damage..." if you did not specifically intend for him to have to be healed for the power to work?

normalview

09/07/2010, 17:44

This, plus the seemingly is deceptive here. If one ruling says "healing cannot occur on the first click" and the other says "healing can occur on the first click" then they are directly contradictory, not merely "seemingly at odds."

"Seemingly" is exactly the word I meant to use; there is nothing that says that the X-men TA ruling and the Morlun ruling MUST conflict. They are two separate rulings for two distinct and different powers/abilities.

And speaking in general to anyone who is reading this particular post, as far as contradictory rulings in general are concerned, I think it is rather naive to want them to go away when this entire game is pretty much built on the idea that there is a core rules set (which is actually pretty small when you think about it) and then just about everything else either modifies or contradicts those rules. In fact, you could look at the PAC as just one long check list of stuff that contradicts the core rules: ranged combat against adjacent opponents? Sharpshooter ability. Ignoring terrain when moving? Phasing/Teleport. Move *AND* attack all in one? Charge, Running Shot, and HSS. And so on.

Now I am not saying that this is carte blanche to have every last little ruling be in more or less direct conflict with every other ruling, but seeing as how this game is designed to represent super powers that don't conform to the norm, contradiction should be expected.

Contradictory rulings hiding out in the forums are even less desirable than multitudes of errata obviously printed in the published materials.

You do realize we're talking about Morlun, right? (AKA: a character that hasn't even been officially released yet) Yeah, its just a forum ruling for now... but once the WoS appears in the PG, I don't think it will be just a forum ruling for long.

Why write "when morlun is healed by steal energy.." when you could write "when morlun makes a successfully deals damage..." if you did not specifically intend for him to have to be healed for the power to work?

You'd have to ask GD that question.

Dremak

09/07/2010, 17:56

You do realize we're talking about Morlun, right? (AKA: a character that hasn't even been officially released yet) Yeah, its just a forum ruling for now... but once the WoS appears in the PG, I don't think it will be just a forum ruling for long.

Whether he is officially released at the moment seems especially irrelevant when that ceases to be true in a matter of hours.

You'd have to ask GD that question.

That obviously wasn't a question, but rather a means to point out that it is ludicrous to interpret the power in a manner that creates extra complications when it was so clearly designed to rule out those complications.

Occam's Razor.
Was there healing if you weren't healed? No, simple and obvious.
Or, the overly complicated: Yes, theoretically you healed for zero effect, but still healed.

normalview

09/07/2010, 18:10

Whether he is officially released at the moment seems especially irrelevant when that ceases to be true in a matter of hours.

Seeing as how PG updates are not always availabe the instant a product hits the shelf, yeah, it does seem relevant to me. Very relevant. They are updated as frequently as Norm can manage... if that isn't fast enough for you, then I guess I really can't help you :shrug:

That obviously wasn't a question, but rather a means to point out that it is ludicrous to interpret the power in a manner that creates extra complications when it was so clearly designed to rule out those complications.

Then why the question mark? You asked a question, I provided an answer. You may have seen it as an obvious rhetorical question... obviously (;)) I did not see it as such.

Occam's Razor.
Was there healing if you weren't healed? No, simple and obvious.
Or, the overly complicated: Yes, theoretically you healed for zero effect, but still healed.

But even with that guiding principle, the simplest answer is not always correct. Besides, in this case, your POV may influence what you consider 'simple' and what is 'complicated'.

Questions

09/07/2010, 18:15

And speaking in general to anyone who is reading this particular post, as far as contradictory rulings in general are concerned, I think it is rather naive to want them to go away when this entire game is pretty much built on the idea that there is a core rules set (which is actually pretty small when you think about it) and then just about everything else either modifies or contradicts those rules. In fact, you could look at the PAC as just one long check list of stuff that contradicts the core rules: ranged combat against adjacent opponents? Sharpshooter ability. Ignoring terrain when moving? Phasing/Teleport. Move *AND* attack all in one? Charge, Running Shot, and HSS. And so on.

But the rules should be coherent. Everything shouldn't be ruled in a microverse. Rather, the game should work to keep similar things similar. For example, the movement from Charge and the movement from RS are often treated similarly. Earlier today someone asked about Cosmic Spider-Man's RCE as it relates to Elite Sniper. I suggested a ruling that was based on Arkham Asylum Robin's Tear Gas Grenade and Stunning Blow. Rulings should be predictable based on prior rulings. everything in the game shouldn't be independent. And in fact, this bad Morlun ruling seems to be based on a bad Bagman ruling.

You do realize we're talking about Morlun, right? (AKA: a character that hasn't even been officially released yet) Yeah, its just a forum ruling for now... but once the WoS appears in the PG, I don't think it will be just a forum ruling for long.

Great. A bad ruling becomes part of the rules and creates more bad rulings. This is what I think many of us are opposed to in the first place. Just because it gets put into the Player's Guide doesn't mean it was the correct ruling.

Dremak

09/07/2010, 18:23

Seeing as how PG updates are not always availabe the instant a product hits the shelf, yeah, it does seem relevant to me. Very relevant. They are updated as frequently as Norm can manage... if that isn't fast enough for you, then I guess I really can't help you :shrug:

Am I to take this to mean that either Morlun or Healing will be reworked in the next PG?

And on the Occam's Razor point, I should think that it should be clear that the two concepts are vastly different in terms of complicated.

You cannot heal therefore you were not healed is far simpler (and not based on POV, but rather objectively so)

than

I attempted to heal x amount greater than zero, but cannot, therefore the amount of healing is reduced to zero - meaning than I did in actually heal, for an amount of zero.

Remember: zero is a relatively new concept in human history.

Questions

09/07/2010, 18:27

Am I to take this to mean that either Morlun or Healing will be reworked in the next PG?

My guess is that the clarification side steps everything and says something like: Morlun can place a tracking token even if he is on his starting click.

normalview

09/07/2010, 18:28

Am I to take this to mean that either Morlun or Healing will be reworked in the next PG?

Considering how many questions this has generated, yeah, I think there is a very good chance it will be. I can't say for sure (final call is Norm's), but let's just say I will be very, very surprised if it is not.

And on the Occam's Razor point, I should think that it should be clear that the two concepts are vastly different in terms of complicated.

You cannot heal therefore you were not healed is far simpler (and not based on POV, but rather objectively so)

than

I attempted to heal x amount greater than zero, but cannot, therefore the amount of healing is reduced to zero - meaning than I did in actually heal, for an amount of zero.

Remember: zero is a relatively new concept in human history.

I am not really sure what all of that is supposed to mean. Are you trying to argue healing does occur or not?

Dremak

09/07/2010, 18:53

Considering how many questions this has generated, yeah, I think there is a very good chance it will be. I can't say for sure (final call is Norm's), but let's just say I will be very, very surprised if it is not.

And on the Occam's Razor point, I should think that it should be clear that the two concepts are vastly different in terms of complicated.

I am not really sure what all of that is supposed to mean. Are you trying to argue healing does occur or not?

Does not. Firstly because the respective rules do not support it, and secondly, because even if there is some wiggle room (which i disagree with) that the simpler interpretation which fully incorporates all the relevant sources (Rules, Traits, Glossary entries, etc.) is the better of the interpretations.

"I am attempting to heal on my first click, the rules say I can't therefore I don't" is the simplest, most easily understood interpretation of the given materials.

Getting "I am attempting to heal on my first click, the rules say I can't, therefore i heal net zero and still activate this power that requires that I heal." from the available materials is a magnitude greater in complexity, requiring a number of mental backflips and between the lines readings.

It is somewhat akin to (but not exactly) looking at 1+1 and having one person announcing that the result is 2, and the other claiming that 1.999... is more correct. Except that I think the better example is I say 1+1=2, and others are looking at it and thinking "well, it is equal to 11 if we are working in binary."

Somewhere among all that mind splat the point is hovering about.

platmj

09/07/2010, 22:15

jak7890

09/08/2010, 04:14

I guess my contention is this: Can I use Steal Energy to heal of zero damage?

STEAL ENERGY (NON-OPTIONAL) Each time an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack made by this character, heal this character of 1 damage.

The power is pretty straightforward that it heals of one damage, and not zero damage. Morlun's power states that he must heal using the Steal Energy power:

Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

And if Morlun is on his first click he would only be able to use Steal Energy if he can use it to heal of zero damage.

Dremak

09/08/2010, 14:29

Why does everyone continue to go back and fourth with this. Lets all do this. Play Morlun as we will (or as our judge decides he will be played) and when the offical ruling on him comes out we will either deal with it or die anger. There is a good argument on both sides job well done now lets move on..........please.........don't we all at the end of the day just like playing the game for what it is and if we have to decide here or their how we would (at our venues) interpert a rule until it is offical (which we will have to live with cause someone has to have the final say, that is what authority is for) is it truely that bad???????? to me arguing about it past the first two pages of this post is a waste (but I did read all 10) Everyone have fun with the new set and it is what it is.......

Everyone understand that until it is clarified it will be judge ruled at events. This discussion is for the purposes of exploring the issue fully. I never argue to argue, debate is the process of seeking higher understanding through thorough argumentation. If you want to avoid confrontation and not engage in debate then stay out of it. Why would you poke you nose in to say "stop fighting guys" when noone is being uncivil? NOW I'm annoyed. No contribution to the debate, then stay out of it.

I guess my contention is this: Can I use Steal Energy to heal of zero damage?

The power is pretty straightforward that it heals of one damage, and not zero damage. Morlun's power states that he must heal using the Steal Energy power:

And if Morlun is on his first click he would only be able to use Steal Energy if he can use it to heal of zero damage.

That is kind of how the argument for getting a tracking token works. Basically, Morlun punches someone on his first click and tries to heal for 1. The attempt checks the definition for healing, which states that you cannot heal "beyond" the first click, so the net healing is reduced to zero, meaning that healing still occurred for zero, placing a tracking token.

It basically boils down to interpretations of the rules section and glossary definition of what healing is, and interpreting what exactly "beyond" means.

jak7890

09/09/2010, 00:46

That is kind of how the argument for getting a tracking token works. Basically, Morlun punches someone on his first click and tries to heal for 1. The attempt checks the definition for healing, which states that you cannot heal "beyond" the first click, so the net healing is reduced to zero, meaning that healing still occurred for zero, placing a tracking token.

It basically boils down to interpretations of the rules section and glossary definition of what healing is, and interpreting what exactly "beyond" means.

I understood all of that.

My point is that he has to heal using Steal Energy to get the token. Steal Energy is pretty explicit about healing for 1 damage and 1 damage only. Steal Energy does not allow you to heal for 0 damage. So, even if you can heal for 0 with Support or Regen or whatever, it still wouldn't allow a tracking token because it wouldn't fit the condition of using Steal Energy.

IceHot

09/09/2010, 13:16

And on the Occam's Razor point, ...

Ockham's Razor is being used way out of context here....

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
"entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity"

Ockham's Razor is a guidline for determing the Cause of an Effect, not for determing the definition of a statement.

There is no Cause in question here?

What is in question is the meaning of rule...of which no manner of simplicity (or eliminating additional possible causes) is neccessary nor even evident as a standard in Heroclix rulings.

MaxFortune

09/09/2010, 13:19

No, I think you had it right before you edited yourself. The opposing character has to be within his line of fire, not the square adjacent to the opposing character. This sentence does have an awkward grammatical feel to it, though. What does the prepositional phrase modify, the square or the character? I believe it is the character that must be within the line of fire.

And this sort of thing is why I contend that HC is broken.

@Icehot -- Please, sir, no Latin. We're having a tough enough time with the English on the character card. :p

Dremak

09/09/2010, 13:58

Ockham's Razor is being used way out of context here....

Ockham's Razor is a guidline for determing the Cause of an Effect, not for determing the definition of a statement.

There is no Cause in question here?

What is in question is the meaning of rule...of which no manner of simplicity (or eliminating additional possible causes) is neccessary nor even evident as a standard in Heroclix rulings.

You are correct sir, on the strictest of readings. The extraneous entity I was referring to was that of some mysterious "thing" that could cause you to be healed for no effect. And of course simplicity is no standard in HC rules, or rulings, but it does come into play when interpreting language. The rules governing this interaction are relatively simple, clear, and concise. The interpretation has become unnecessarily complicated, hinging on overly abstract ideas on what is meant by words like "beyond."

Specifically on the "beyond" point is that the idea that you are healed for zero effect depends on deciding that just because you cannot move something beyond a point, does not mean that if you are against it, and attempt to move beyond it, that you haven't moved.

My hand cannot move beyond the barrier of a brick wall.
A click cannot be healed beyond its first click.

If I set my hand/click, on the brick wall/first click, and attempt to move past it the rules say I cannot (molecular bonds/heroclix rules).

Now one could say that the effort to move is movement for zero effect, but it is far simpler to say, and understand, that you haven't moved because you cannot. To postulate a kind effort that can rail against impossibility and still have an effect (even if net zero), is to postulate a thing that is unnecessary(Fulfilling the prerequisites for making an Occam's Razor argument as an "entity" need not be something like a unicorn).

IceHot

09/09/2010, 14:33

MaxFortune

09/09/2010, 14:57

My wife is a swimming coach.
She wont be coaching tommorrow as she will be busy being enfranchised.

What does that statement mean?

Good Lord, the sheer one-liner potential here almost made me pass out. My head hurts -- I can't decide...help meeeeee...:knockedou

IceHot

09/09/2010, 15:05

Good Lord, the sheer one-liner potential here almost made me pass out. My head hurts -- I can't decide...help meeeeee...:knockedou

Here are some easy options that require no additional supposition:

My wife will be endorsing a new line of swim wear. Signing contracts will take up her day.
My wife will be opening up a McDonalds

The actual answer requires an additional piece of knowledge or a supposition of that additional piece of knowledge which depending on your background might be your natural conclusion of what was meant.

Dremak

09/09/2010, 15:05

The problem with using occums razor to argue definitions is the part of necessity.

Only GD knows what elements are in neccesity to explain what they meant given the small area for text on a card.

Lets take a look an example of fact:

My wife is a swimming coach.
She wont be coaching tommorrow as she will be busy being enfranchised.

What does that statement mean?

If you are going to get hung up on Occam's Razor, ignore it. It is a guideline, not a rule. The point changes not at all.

As to your "example of fact," I've no clue what you are getting at but I'll bite.

It means: "Your wife is a swimming coach.
She wont be coaching tomorrow as she will be busy being enfranchised."

Reduced: "My wife is a swimming coach.
She wont be coaching tomorrow."

Everyday interpretation: "Um, ok."

Overly complex, but true interpretation: "Your wife is not going to be a swimming coach tomorrow, as she will not be engaging in that activity."

People are attributed labels because they exhibit some/all of the activities/properties implicit in the label.

I am male because I have the properties that make me such. Your wife is a swimming coach because she coaches swimming, if she is not coaching swimming, she is not a swimming coach because she is not currently exhibiting the properties thereof - at that point she could be said to have been a swimming coach and possibly be one again in the future.

Individuals assert that they are something, like "a banker" or "a heroclix player" because it is more expedient than stating the more accurate "In the past M-F 9-5, I have been a banker and plan to be so in the future on the same schedule, and Saturdays 2-5pm I have been a heroclix player and plan to be so in the future" This of course does not apply to labels that relate to things that are constant properties such as "able to swimming" or "intelligent (although subjective)" or "a wife"

Of course, I don't see how any of that, now that i've played your game, has anything to do with the argument.

Edit:

Seeing now that you are focused on what "busy being enfranchised" means, and not the rest of the statement/s. This wall of text is a bit off. Still not sure what you are going for.

Interestingly, because I think you were fishing for something more like this, I would have assumed that part meant she was going to vote (in a casual context).

en·fran·chise (n-frnchz)
tr.v. en·fran·chised, en·fran·chis·ing, en·fran·chis·es
1. To bestow a franchise on.
2. To endow with the rights of citizenship, especially the right to vote.
3. To free, as from bondage.

For reference I guess.

But in a non-casual setting, being enfranchised isn't an activity, it is a state of being, one of those semi-permanent labels i was talking about. "being busy" being so doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless she is actually engaging in an activity related to it though.

IceHot

09/09/2010, 15:38

The correct answer is my wife is a coach, but wont be able to coach because she will be busy becoming a citizen of the United States....yeah for my wife.

The problem with using Ockham's Razor to figure out what someone means is that you have to leave off the added supposition that my wife was not born in the United States.

I didnt give you enough information to deduce that unless without the assumption you already knew what I meant.

What premesis you presuppose will influence what you think the simplest answer is.

Here are somethings we know about SPs:

they fit the words onto the space provided on the card
they often mix and match words from one SP to another
they communicate with the RA to explain intent
they allow the RA / Deputies/ local judges the ability to make interim rulings based on their interpretations

I am not really sure what the correct ruling is. However the complexity of the ruling has no bearing on the accuracy of that ruling, primarily because the complexity of a ruling would be based on preconceived premise of whats simple for you.

Weve gotten simple rulings before that oppose obvious supposition:
For example, if the dial and card are out of sync go by the dial.
When a power doesnt match a character that opposes the obvious supposition that GD made a printing error.

Weve gotten rulings that dont appear to match what people presuppose:
If I am adjacent to Batman can I can see him to Outwit him? That doesnt fly although many would claim from their perspective thats the simplest answer.

Weve gotten complex rulings before that add additional supposition based on your perception of the rules:

When using Boomerang, making an attack ―as if he
occupied the squareis for range, knock back and line of
fire. All other conditions, such as using an ability that
requires adjacency or line of fire, Captain Boomerang is
still in his original square.

Or simply a complex rule that can not be simplified by referring to other rules that might seem similar:
Red Skull can use Outwit 2 times on a turn, by his SP and his natural Outwit, but he couldnt add a third outwit with ICwO if Outwit was already showing on his dial.

Questions

09/09/2010, 17:45

Only GD knows what elements are in neccesity to explain what they meant given the small area for text on a card.

My biggest issue is with how this issue will be addressed. From what has been suggested, instead of just simply changing how Morlun's trait is worded, it has been suggested that healing will change. I'd rather see it clarified on the forums that healing is healing (as many have suggested in this thread) and errata Morlun's trait in the Player's Guide. Why should the rules change because GD wrote a poor trait?

Dremak

09/09/2010, 17:51

Well and good I guess, except that I still don't see a significant relationship to the discussion. The issue is the interpretation of a number of interacting rules, one interpretation which reads the rules and interprets them simply and widely understandably, and another that requires you to make additional assumptions about words and phrases that are not in the pure versions of those words or phrases, but rather rely on connotations, in addition to supposing certain effects to exist unnecessarily. I am not using Occam's Razor to determine someone's meaning, i'm using it to evaluate two different explanations for an effect, reaching two different conclusions. I am not even so much using it as referencing it. You seem to have set up a straw man in attacking "Occam's Razor" instead of the addressing the actual argumentation surrounding the issue. So if it clears it up for you, read what has been said and eliminate references to it. Then chime in on the reasoning surrounding whether or not Steal Energy can cause a character to heal on their first click, consequently allowing Morlun to assign a tracking token.

With Question on this BTW. No need to rewrite the rules, just a small clarification on Morlun.

IceHot

09/10/2010, 14:48

You seem to have set up a straw man in attacking "Occam's Razor" instead of the addressing the actual argumentation surrounding the issue.
Its not a straw man because I am not addressing the core of your argumentation or the conclusion one way or the other.

I am simply saying stop using an over used theory that doesnt apply to this line of reasoning because to be honest its trite.

In order for it to be a straw man I would have to say your argument doesnt work because your weaker argument doesnt work. Thats not at all what I am saying.

I am saying stop using "The Razor" to argue HeroClix rules and make a substantial argument without it.

canaaron

09/10/2010, 14:59

Dremak

09/10/2010, 15:51

I don't know if this point has been made, but since the acting player decides the order, he can choose to take the mystics first, then do steal energy if morlun is attacking on his starting click, which makes him just that much better.

This is absolutely the case.

IceHot - it is a straw man because you are behaving as if you are addressing the problem by picking out two words "Occam's Razor" and attempting to invalidate an entire argument based on an incidental reference, which I've repeatedly said is not central to the problem. You can be hung up on that all you want, but I plan on discussing the issue at hand, as opposed to nitpicking with over-zealously interpreted ideas of what "Occam's Razor" and "Straw Man" address.

The important part of the argument is here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4964557&postcount=100).

DarthPezley

09/10/2010, 17:32

I don't know if I should laugh or cry at this thread.

I'm thinking laugh, because come on guys - this is HeroClix. It is a game based on comic books. You do not need to get this serious about it. We are grown men playing with little tiny pieces of plastic with dice and tokens.

I hardly think we need to bring logical arguments and straw men and razors into this. Just wait for a ruling in the PB, and in the mean time, go with the ruling of the judge at your venue. For home games, if you can't decide on a ruling, do what the rulebook says - roll a d6 and split the possible rolls one way or the other, and go with what the dice decide.

Questions

09/10/2010, 17:35

For home games, if you can't decide on a ruling, do what the rulebook says - roll a d6 and split the possible rolls one way or the other, and go with what the dice decide.

That's not in the rulebook anymore. Now if only the Player's Guide had a cage match decider.

MaxFortune

09/10/2010, 21:38

The actual answer requires an additional piece of knowledge or a supposition of that additional piece of knowledge which depending on your background might be your natural conclusion of what was meant.

Or it might just be a smutty joke, which is instantly where I took it. :laugh:

Quebbster

09/11/2010, 03:23

That's not in the rulebook anymore. Now if only the Player's Guide had a cage match decider.
I prefer dance-offs.

vlad3theimpaler

09/11/2010, 14:29

I don't know if this point has been made, but since the acting player decides the order, he can choose to take the mystics first, then do steal energy if morlun is attacking on his starting click, which makes him just that much better.
Yes, I know I had mentioned that several pages ago, and I think someone else might have, too.

That's not in the rulebook anymore. Now if only the Player's Guide had a cage match decider.

I prefer dance-offs.

What about a dance-off in a cage?

DarthPezley

09/11/2010, 18:38

That's not in the rulebook anymore. Now if only the Player's Guide had a cage match decider.

Huh. Well, I think it should be. It is a way to solve issues when you don't have a judge present. Me and my friend still use it when we can't agree on a ruling.

Behemoth

09/16/2010, 11:50

Dremak

09/16/2010, 16:01

All of this topic, and it was a lot to read at one sitting, makes me think of the Deadpool trait ruling.

RIDICULOUS REGENERATION: Whenever Deadpool would be dealt damage from an attack, roll a d6 instead. On a result of 1, he takes that damage plus 1. On a result of a 2-3 he takes the normal amount of damage. On a result of a 4-5 he takes 1 damage. On a result of a 6, he heals 1 damage instead.

If Deadpool's trait doesn't trigger on a 0 damage attack, why would Morlun's SP trigger on a 0 healing Steal Energy? The two seem identical (except for the damage vs. healing aspect).

A good point. "would be dealt damage" and "when morlun is healed" seem similar enough. It also takes the argument away from whether there is healing or not, and makes the claim that even healing for 0 shouldn't activate the power. Interesting to say the least.

Questions

09/16/2010, 16:05

A good point. "would be dealt damage" and "when morlun is healed" seem similar enough. It also takes the argument away from whether there is healing or not, and makes the claim that even healing for 0 shouldn't activate the power. Interesting to say the least.

I've also thought about Mystics. When a character deals 0 damage, the target will take 0 damage, but that does not activate the Mystics team ability.

hclixinarcadia

09/17/2010, 10:47

I still think you can use steal energy and heal on your first click, it's just that will not heal past your first click.

I think it progresses this way:
1. Make an attack with steal energy
2. Attack hits, steal energy heals you one click
3. But Morlun is on his first click so he 'heals' because the power was active, however he will not heal past his first click

In other words if I were judging I would rule that Morlun can place a tracking token on his first click because I believe Morlun is using Steal Energy and is 'healed' but because it is his first click he won't heal past it.

I just got Morlun so now I have to read thru all these... argh.

You do have a point about the way it is worded but...

The net effect of what you're saying is that a tracking token is placed everytime Morlun connects with a close combat attack right? If that was the intent, then it would have said so.

However, it said that he has to have been healed... so no tracking token on the first click... I would think.

I guess the design lesson here is to be extra careful with the verbs. They can easily be ambiguous... "to evade" can mean "to successfully evade" or "to attempt to evade." I thought "healed" was pretty straightforward and sound but I guess not.

Actually, Renard's logic is correct. You are healed using Steal Energy it just can't go past the starting line. And the analogy with Support is correct too.

If the intent is not as Renard thinks it is, then maybe the power should be errata'd to say:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is not at his starting click and is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

hclixinarcadia

09/17/2010, 11:08

That's not in the rulebook anymore. Now if only the Player's Guide had a cage match decider.

I noticed that the roll-off is no longer in the rulebook too... does anyone know why that was taken out?

red king

09/17/2010, 11:15

I noticed that the roll-off is no longer in the rulebook too... does anyone know why that was taken out?

Maybe they were worried about someone using custom dice???

Dremak

09/17/2010, 13:34

I just got Morlun so now I have to read thru all these... argh.

You do have a point about the way it is worded but...

The net effect of what you're saying is that a tracking token is placed everytime Morlun connects with a close combat attack right? If that was the intent, then it would have said so.

However, it said that he has to have been healed... so no tracking token on the first click... I would think.

I guess the design lesson here is to be extra careful with the verbs. They can easily be ambiguous... "to evade" can mean "to successfully evade" or "to attempt to evade." I thought "healed" was pretty straightforward and sound but I guess not.

Actually, Renard's logic is correct. You are healed using Steal Energy it just can't go past the starting line. And the analogy with Support is correct too.

If the intent is not as Renard thinks it is, then maybe the power should be errata'd to say:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun is not at his starting click and is healed using Steal Energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

Actually, if it was meant to work as Renard wants it to, and was to be errated to make clear, the power should read like:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun successfully deals damage to a character, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

Unless they are anticipating some power which would disallow the use of steal energy like "characters targeting this character cannot use steal energy", then it should read like:

PSYCHIC VAMPIRE: Morlun can use Steal Energy. Whenever Morlun successfully deals damage to a character, and can use steal energy, you may place a tracking token on the targeted character's card.

Argument being that if there was not meant to be a distinction in whether or not you are healed using steal energy at any certain point when you have uncounterable, omnipresent steal energy, then they would have made no mention of healing using the power. The power specifically mentions that you must heal to place the token, which implies that there is a condition under which you cannot.

Now understand that this is not character accurate either, as Morlun in comics can always track you after her has even touched you... which means to me that only a successful close combat attack, damage or no, should be necessary for comic accuracy.

Questions

09/17/2010, 18:49

Happy to see this.

From the Player's Guide:
Steal Energy
A character using Steal Energy while on their first click is not considered healed when an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack.

Dremak

09/17/2010, 19:03

Happy to see this.

From the Player's Guide:

New Guide! Huzzah! Got my reading material for tonight. :cool:

Would it be impolite to gloatingly proclaim "I WIN!" here? Yeah Probably... *shrug*

vlad3theimpaler

09/18/2010, 03:45

Happy to see this.

From the Player's Guide:

That pleases me. I really thought that the ruling was going to go the other way, but I think that this is the most logical and consistent reading of the rules.

Questions

09/30/2010, 19:21

In light of the new ruling, can Morlun use Steal Energy on his first click, take Mystics damage first, and then heal through Steal Energy?

From the Player's Guide:
A character using Steal Energy while on their first click is not considered healed when an opposing character takes damage from a close combat attack.

Captain Krueger

10/01/2010, 04:04

vlad3theimpaler

10/01/2010, 06:12

I'd say yes : you can still choose in which order things happen, and if you choose to apply Mystic damage first, Morlun is no longer on his first clic when Steal Energy is applied. Both are checked at the exact same time, when the opposing character takes damage, so if you choose to check them in the right order, you(re still good to go even with the new ruling.

Captain Krueger is right. Mystics and steal energy trigger at the same time, so the active player chooses the order in which they resolve. If you're on your first click, resolving Mystics first will put you on your second click, at which point you can actually gain the benefit from steal energy.