Another Nightcrawler question

[Sgt.Hatch]

I looked through the treads and couldn't find this one.

EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL TELEPORTATION: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of terrain and characters on movement.

What is considered terrain. Does this include basically everything on the map? So pretty much he can move anywhere in a straight line?

[Questions]

I looked through the treads and couldn't find this one.

EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL TELEPORTATION: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of terrain and characters on movement.

What is considered terrain. Does this include basically everything on the map? So pretty much he can move anywhere in a straight line?

Terrain is covered by page 11 of the Blackest Night Rulebook and onward. It covers hindering terrain (and water), elevated terrain, blocking terrain (indoor, outdoor, and walls), and special terrain.

My question is: Does Nightcrawler when using this trait alone need to roll to break away from opposing characters?

EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL TELEPORTATION: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of terrain and characters on movement.

[Maraud]

Terrain is covered by page 11 of the Blackest Night Rulebook and onward. It coveres hindering terrain (and water), elevated terrain, blocking terrain (indoor, outdoor, and walls).

My question is: Does Nightcrawler using this trait alone need to roll to break away from opposing characters?

This had been asked in another thread and it was stated no he does not, he even ignores KC.

[W.I.T]

Terrain is covered by page 11 of the Blackest Night Rulebook and onward. It covers hindering terrain (and water), elevated terrain, blocking terrain (indoor, outdoor, and walls).

My question is: Does Nightcrawler when using this trait alone need to roll to break away from opposing characters?

I asked that same question when his dial first appeared, and have gotten no response to it.

[chrisdosmil]

My question is: Does Nightcrawler when using this trait alone need to roll to break away from opposing characters?

Good question. I'd like to know this too.

[Questions]

This had been asked in another thread and it was stated yes he does, he even ignores KC.

Could you post the link? (I'm also confused by your response since the two don't seem to go together.)

[lancelot]

Since you don't have to roll for breakaway when using the Infiltrate feat since it has the same terminology, Nightcrawler shouldn't have to roll for breakaway.

[Maraud]

I asked that same question when his dial first appeared, and have gotten no response to it.

Talking about this thread?
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284310&highlight=nightcrawler

With this answer?

IIRC, the intent of the trait is basically that it trumps everything, including things like the Hypertime TA. So Nightcrawler will probably break away automatically, but that specific issue has yet to be adressed.

[lancelot]

Could you post the link? (I'm also confused by your response since the two don't seem to go together.)

Characters that have KC are ignored since they are characters, so Kingdom Come/Hypertime wouldn't kick in.

[W.I.T]

Talking about this thread?
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284310&highlight=nightcrawler

With this answer?

That is not a definite yes or no either way. The word 'probably' would indicate to me, that it hasn't been decided yet, and there was never a definitive answer.

[Questions]

Talking about this thread?
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284310&highlight=nightcrawler

With this answer?

So your suggested answer is: No, Nightcrawler does not need to roll to break away when using this trait alone. (It was the yes answer that confused me.)

Characters that have KC are ignored since they are characters, so Kingdom Come/Hypertime wouldn't kick in.

I get that part. I was the first to mention that change to the rules. :) See what confused me above.

That is not a definite yes or no either way. The word 'probably' would indicate to me, that it hasn't been decided yet, and there was never a definitive answer.

I agree. Call it personal style, but I like more concrete answers.

[Maraud]

So your suggested answer is: No, Nightcrawler does not need to roll to break away when using this trait alone. (It was the yes answer that confused me.)


Fixed, sry.

[TheCheerleader]

During the Web Prerelease this came up in one of my matches. Had a guy with plasticity/poison based with Nightcrawler. It was ruled by one of the Judges(Kurt) there said that he did not have to roll breakaway.

[Maraud]

I could give you the famous line
"Ask your judge they have the final say so over rules."

If you don't play in tourneys and play for fun take a vote or roll a die.

[nbperp]

If you are ignoring characters for movement, then you do not need to roll break away. I know when the Blackest Night PAC was being put together, there was a deliberate effort to move things like Leap/Climb and Phasing away from "ignores characters" in order to make sure that "ignores characters" would clearly communicate just that.

Short answer:
Nightcrawler does not need to roll break away
Nightcrawler is not impressed by the Hypertime team ability (i.e., he does not roll).

[W.I.T]

I could give you the famous line
"Ask your judge they have the final say so over rules."

If you don't play in tourneys and play for fun take a vote or roll a die.

I am sure that by the time WoS hits the street, we'll have an answer one way or the other. It's still 3-4 weeks away.

[nivlac713]

I don't know about the KC thing, but if he ignores characters for movement then isn't it just the samething as flight? Mabey they changed the wording for that, but if he's not using HSS wouldn't he still have to break away? I dun know, makes sense to me he shouldn't, but I can see it either way. A definative answer would rock.

EDIT: Shoulda waited another minute to post Haha. Thanks nbperp!

[W.I.T]

If you are ignoring characters for movement, then you do not need to roll break away. I know when the Blackest Night PAC was being put together, there was a deliberate effort to move things like Leap/Climb and Phasing away from "ignores characters" in order to make sure that "ignores characters" would clearly communicate just that.

Short answer:
Nightcrawler does not need to roll break away
Nightcrawler is not impressed by the Hypertime team ability (i.e., he does not roll).

The breakaway, I get. The HT TA, I don't get. Sure he ignores characters, but since when is a TA a character?

[wonderboy8917]

What about the Fantastic Four Starter map with the Force Fields? Can Nightcrawler move through those since it says he ignores the effects of all terrain?

[Gentlegamer]

If you are ignoring characters for movement, then you do not need to roll break away. I know when the Blackest Night PAC was being put together, there was a deliberate effort to move things like Leap/Climb and Phasing away from "ignores characters" in order to make sure that "ignores characters" would clearly communicate just that.

Short answer:
Nightcrawler does not need to roll break away
Nightcrawler is not impressed by the Hypertime team ability (i.e., he does not roll).
Will a clarification be put in the Player's Guide? Not necessarily about Nightcrawler specifically, but about the meaning of "ignores characters" generally?

I just compared the FF and BN Phasing/Teleport wordings, I see the difference there. The BN definition of "ignores" ought also to make this clear, but it may still be a good idea to put an entry overtly explaining in the Player's Guide.

[Maraud]

The breakaway, I get. The HT TA, I don't get. Sure he ignores characters, but since when is a TA a character?

Nothing says he ignores characters.
it says he ignores the Effects of characters.
HT is an effect of a character, so is him not being able to move through a square that a character occupies.

[Questions]

I am sure that by the time WoS hits the street, we'll have an answer one way or the other. It's still 3-4 weeks away.

But isn't it nice when they do it as you're posting. :)

I don't know about the KC thing, but if he ignores characters for movement then isn't it just the samething as flight? Mabey they changed the wording for that, but if he's not using HSS wouldn't he still have to break away? I dun know, makes sense to me he shouldn't, but I can see it either way. A definative answer would rock.

EDIT: Shoulda waited another minute to post Haha. Thanks nbperp!

You now know about the KC thing. Extra-Dimensional Teleportation is different than Flight. Extra-Dimensional Teleportation ignores the effects of characters on movement. One of the effects of a character on movement is that normally a character must break away from an opposing character. This effect is ignored. Flight allows a character to move through squares adjacent to and occupied by opposing characters. This is very different. It doesn't ignore the effect of the opposing character, just allows the character to move through and around them. It's two very different effects.

What about the Fantastic Four Starter map with the Force Fields? Can Nightcrawler move through those since it says he ignores the effects of all terrain?

I would think no.

From the Player's Guide:
When determining if a line of fire is blocked, treat force fields as walls. However, force fields are not walls or blocking terrain; they can’t be destroyed and characters can’t move over or through them using any power, ability, or effect (such as Phasing/Teleport or the Flight ability). Characters on opposite sides of force fields are not adjacent.

It clearly says they are not walls or blocking terrain and never calls them any other terrain. Since they are not terrain (as considered by the rules), Nightcrawler should not be able to ignore them.

Will a clarification be put in the Player's Guide? Not necessarily about Nightcrawler specifically, but about the meaning of "ignores characters" generally?

I just compared the FF and BN Phasing/Teleport wordings, I see the difference there. The BN definition of "ignores" ought also to make this clear, but it may still be a good idea to put an entry overtly explaining in the Player's Guide.

Now you're going to get to see me argue against an errata. :) I don't think this one is necessary. The rules themselves establish a pretty clear difference between the two. Just because there is a rules change, doesn't mean that something needs to go into the Player's Guide. This would better be addressed through an article on the WizKid's website.

[Gentlegamer]

Now you're going to get to see me argue against an errata. :) I don't think this one is necessary. The rules themselves establish a pretty clear difference between the two. Just because there is a rules change, doesn't mean that something needs to go into the Player's Guide. This would better be addressed through an article on the WizKid's website.Not errata. A "frequently asked question" entry just pointing out what "ignores" means overtly. :cool:

[Maraud]

Not errata. A "frequently asked question" entry just pointing out what "ignores" means overtly. :cool:

You mean something like a glossary in the back of the Rule book that says:


IGNORES: Is not affected by or treats the stated property or effect as if it didn’t exist or happen.

Oh yeah its all ready there.:eek:

[Questions]

Not errata. A "frequently asked question" entry just pointing out what "ignores" means overtly. :cool:

If there ever was a FAQ again, I'd prefer it was a separate document.

[as_bat]

EXTRA-DIMENSIONAL TELEPORTATION: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of terrain and characters on movement.


regarding the bolded part.

It has been discussed here what happens when nightcrawler moves.
But what happens when he is being moved?
What about knockback and Tk?
Any other effect somebody else remembers?

[normalview]

regarding the bolded part.

It has been discussed here what happens when nightcrawler moves.
But what happens when he is being moved?
What about knockback and Tk?
Any other effect somebody else remembers?

If Nightcrawler is moved, period, he ignores the effects of terrain.

Unlike, say, Phasing/Teleport (which requires an action to use), this trait will function anytime Nightcrawler moves... whether under his own power or not.

[as_bat]

If Nightcrawler is moved, period, he ignores the effects of terrain.

Unlike, say, Phasing/Teleport (which requires an action to use), this trait will function anytime Nightcrawler moves... whether under his own power or not.


tkvm, I appreciate your opinion regarding this matter.

[Questions]

It wasn't until you mentioned it that I realized that Nightcrawler will be knocked back through characters.

[TheVagrantKing]

So, would Nightcrawler ignore Iceman's 'Slippery' SP?

SLIPPERY: Iceman can use Toughness. When an opposing character moves and becomes adjacent to Iceman, roll a d6. On a result of 1-3, the character is immediately knocked back from Iceman a number of squares equal to the result, in a direction of your choosing.

[normalview]

So, would Nightcrawler ignore Iceman's 'Slippery' SP?

SLIPPERY: Iceman can use Toughness. When an opposing character moves and becomes adjacent to Iceman, roll a d6. On a result of 1-3, the character is immediately knocked back from Iceman a number of squares equal to the result, in a direction of your choosing.

Technically, yes.

Stuff like this is one of the reasons Leap/Climb, Phasing/Teleport, Flight, etc. were all reworded to drop any reference to ignoring characters. Mostly it comes up with KC/Hypertime TA (a L/C character still has to roll to move adjacent to a character with that TA), but Slippery works just as well as a good example.

The few characters that still ignore characters (Nightcrawler, Kid Flash, one of the other Flashes I think), would technically ignore KC/Hypertime, Slippery, and any other effect on movement caused by another character. These are rare execeptions that GD was comfortable with having, since most any other character wouldn't ignore them.

[hpred]

It wasn't until you mentioned it that I realized that Nightcrawler will be knocked back through characters.

I can't wait to TK or FB Nightcrawler in the Prison Map. Look your ability just KO'ed him because he ignores the effects of terrain and has been placed in a square of blocking terrain. But I know that an Orange will probably say that you can't do that. Thou I would like to see what would happen if Nightcrawler is FB'ed thanks to his trait?

Force Blast: Give this character a power action and roll a d6; a single adjacent opposing character is knocked back from this character a number of squares equal to the result.

Nightcrawler: Extra-Dimensional Teleportation: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of terrain and characters on movement.

[Questions]

I can't wait to TK or FB Nightcrawler in the Prison Map. Look your ability just KO'ed him because he ignores the effects of terrain and has been placed in a square of blocking terrain. But I know that an Orange will probably say that you can't do that. Thou I would like to see what would happen if Nightcrawler is FB'ed thanks to his trait?

It cannot happen. He will stop in the last possible square that does not have a character or blocking terrain.

From p. 6 of the 2010 Core Rulebook:
3) THE RULE OF OCCUPANCY
Any game effect resulting in two or more characters occupying the same square, or characters or objects occupying a square of blocking terrain, is prohibited. If part of a game effect would cause this to happen, that part of the game effect is ignored. If moving or placing a character or object would cause this, then the character or object must instead move to or be placed in a different square. Characters with certain powers and abilities may freely travel through other characters and/or blocking terrain, but if it will end its movement in the same square as another character or blocking terrain, the moving character must end its movement before entering the occupied square.

[normalview]

But I know that an Orange will probably say that you can't do that. Thou I would like to see what would happen if Nightcrawler is FB'ed thanks to his trait?

Page 6 of the rules:

3) THE RULE OF OCCUPANCY
Any game effect resulting in two or more characters occupying the same square, or characters or objects occupying a square of blocking terrain, is prohibited. If part of a game effect would cause this to happen, that part of the game effect is ignored. If moving or placing a character or object would cause this, then the character or object must instead move to or be placed in a different square. Characters with certain powers and abilities may freely travel through other characters and/or blocking terrain, but if it will end its movement in the same square as another character or blocking terrain, the moving character must end its movement before entering the occupied square.


So if knock back was not of sufficient distance to move Nightcrawler completely through the blocking terrain, he'd be forced to stop before entering the terrain.

The real question then becomes, "Does he then take knock back damage since he was forced to stop?"

So, from page 9:

KNOCK BACK DAMAGE
A character’s knock back path can’t continue beyond a square that blocks movement. If it would do so, the character’s knock back path ends in the square before its path would cross into any of these areas, and the character is dealt 1 damage, as shown in Figure 9. This damage dealt is called knock back damage. It can be reduced as normal and is applied separately and after damage dealt by the attacker. Knock back into a terrain feature does not destroy it.

Since Nightcrawler can't continue moving and his knock back path ends, he'd be dealt damage.

[Suttkus]

*scratches head*

Okay, the rule of occupancy says, "If part of a game effect would cause this to happen, that part of the game effect is ignored." What does "part of a game effect" mean here?

Example time!

. . . . . .
S N . . B B
. . . . . .

S is Superman, N is Nightcrawler and B is blocking terrain. Superman punches Nightcrawler for three, and deals knock back.

If I was asked to rule on this situation, I would have said that knock back, combined with Nightcrawler's trait, would produce an illegal situation per the rule of occupancy, so the knock back is ignored. Your post suggests that only his last square of knock back would be ignored.

Just how are we defining "part of a game effect"?

Edit:

I can see three readings of "Part of a game effect" in this situation.


You treat knock back as a single game effect (Nightcrawler remains in his place and does not take knock back damage).
Treat the movement portion of the knock back as "part of a game effect" (Nightcrawler remains where he is, but takes the knock back damage as he was stopped from moving by the blocking terrain)
The individual squares of knock back are treated as separate game effects (Nightcrawler is knocked back, but the knock back is truncated when it reaches the blocking terrain)

Now, the third is the most "realistic", but the game's never been a great source of realism. I can't read the knock back rules and see them saying that each square you're knocked through constitute a separate effect. The first or second seem far more reasonable to me.

Edit the second:

I suppose you could be reading it as, Nightcrawler's game effect that is causing problems and needs to be ignored. That would result in NV's description happening... but that begs the question, which problematic game effect are we ignoring here? Is this one of those "active player gets to decide simultaneous occurrences" issues?

[normalview]

*scratches head*

Okay, the rule of occupancy says, "If part of a game effect would cause this to happen, that part of the game effect is ignored." What does "part of a game effect" mean here?

Example time!

. . . . . .
S N . . B B
. . . . . .

S is Superman, N is Nightcrawler and B is blocking terrain. Superman punches Nightcrawler for three, and deals knock back.

If I was asked to rule on this situation, I would have said that knock back, combined with Nightcrawler's trait, would produce an illegal situation per the rule of occupancy, so the knock back is ignored. Your post suggests that only his last square of knock back would be ignored.

Just how are we defining "part of a game effect"?

You're reading the wrong part. Since Nightcrawler is moving, the part I bolded is what matters.

The part you are referring to has to do with stuff like Element Lad's SP that can return a debris token back to its blocking terrain state, or the Damage Control BFC... stuff like that. In those cases, the occupied square just couldn't be repaired; that part of the effect would be ignored.

[Suttkus]

*rereads...*

Yes, clearly I was. Hey, my brain dead moment of the day waited until after 6 p.m., that's pretty good. : - )

[Metal Santa]

I've been reading through this thread and seen a lot of good info, so i figured i would share what i thought.

Extra Dimensional Teleportation: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of characters and terrain on movement.

My understanding of the rules tells me that a break away roll is required BEFORE movement unless you have some power indicating otherwise.

So that means if Nightcrawler is not currently moving, then he cannot ignore the effects of characters.

And for clarification it is my knowledge that you make a breakaway roll before declaring/making other actions when you declare breakaway.

This means you can't be enacting a movement until after breakaway has been declared.

Regarding the incident of the judge saying otherwise, I agree that house rules will always trump global rules.

Regarding the Feat, the first half of the feat is the same as the trait in regards to characters, but it still has an extra requirement to the feats actions.

"The character must end their movement adjacent to an opposing character." (paraphrased)
It would be understandable to errata in a free breakaway since the Feat character will always be based and was broken having to roll breakaway every action. It was still the errata that changed the use of this feat, so until otherwise Nightcrawler's trait should behave the same way as the feat before the errata.

Also keep in mind that Breakaway is a constant game effect. Breakaway is always "checked" when it could apply and like I said before you check for breakaway before you are allowed to make actions.

That means you would acknowledge that break away is required then check for abilities that the breaking character possesses that would ignore or change the breakaway.

Then after succeeding in a breakaway the character may now make move actions and gains all of the benefits associated with a successful breakaway.

Once moving, the character can use all powers and abilities associated with their movement.

that's been my take.

[Questions]

I've been reading through this thread and seen a lot of good info, so i figured i would share what i thought.

Extra Dimensional Teleportation: Nightcrawler ignores the effects of characters and terrain on movement.

My understanding of the rules tells me that a break away roll is required BEFORE movement unless you have some power indicating otherwise.

So that means if Nightcrawler is not currently moving, then he cannot ignore the effects of characters.

And for clarification it is my knowledge that you make a breakaway roll before declaring/making other actions when you declare breakaway.

This means you can't be enacting a movement until after breakaway has been declared.

Regarding the incident of the judge saying otherwise, I agree that house rules will always trump global rules.

Regarding the Feat, the first half of the feat is the same as the trait in regards to characters, but it still has an extra requirement to the feats actions.

"The character must end their movement adjacent to an opposing character." (paraphrased)
It would be understandable to errata in a free breakaway since the Feat character will always be based and was broken having to roll breakaway every action. It was still the errata that changed the use of this feat, so until otherwise Nightcrawler's trait should behave the same way as the feat before the errata.

Also keep in mind that Breakaway is a constant game effect. Breakaway is always "checked" when it could apply and like I said before you check for breakaway before you are allowed to make actions.

That means you would acknowledge that break away is required then check for abilities that the breaking character possesses that would ignore or change the breakaway.

Then after succeeding in a breakaway the character may now make move actions and gains all of the benefits associated with a successful breakaway.

Once moving, the character can use all powers and abilities associated with their movement.

that's been my take.

You just raised that same argument in this thread (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284310). In fact, it's almost a cut and paste of the original post with additional things added in. See the other thread for follow ups to your post.

It isn't really helpful to raise the exact same argument in multiple threads. Keeping it to one makes it much easier to discuss.

[Metal Santa]

I saw this thread second, and it had more information.

I was going to delete it

[robedestroyer]

Since Nightcrawler can't continue moving and his knock back path ends, he'd be dealt damage.

So are you saying that Nightcrawler can't be knocked back through a wall? So regardless of the knockback roll and where a wall is, he would stop at the wall and take 1 damage?

If this is the case, are we to understand that when knocked back, it isn't really considered being moved because if it was, then I'd imagine he wouldn't take the damage and he'd move through the wall instead (assuming the roll is high enough, placement of wall, etc.).

[Maraud]

So are you saying that Nightcrawler can't be knocked back through a wall? So regardless of the knockback roll and where a wall is, he would stop at the wall and take 1 damage?

If this is the case, are we to understand that when knocked back, it isn't really considered being moved because if it was, then I'd imagine he wouldn't take the damage and he'd move through the wall instead (assuming the roll is high enough, placement of wall, etc.).

No what he said is if he was knocked back through blocking terrain and he does not make it out the other side then he would stop on the other side and take the 1 click.

[Thunderclese]

What about Nightcrawler getting hit with knockback off of elevated terrain? Does he still take the 2 damage from 'falling'? Or does his ability to ignore terrain prevent him from taking damage? God I hate this piece.

[mbstoner]

What about Nightcrawler getting hit with knockback off of elevated terrain? Does he still take the 2 damage from 'falling'? Or does his ability to ignore terrain prevent him from taking damage? God I hate this piece.

Yes, he does. Since he has the :m-boot: speed symbol and he only ignores terrain for movement, which knock back is not, he would take the 2 for falling off of elevated.