Can old ATA feats still be used in golden age?

[XxDarkwingpuckxX]

For instance can the Old Thunderbolts card still give Avengers any team ability in place of the Avengers ability in Golden age rules?

Thanks.

[Quebbster]

No. The old versions of the ATAs are banned from tournament play.

[krusticlese]

For instance can the Old Thunderbolts card still give Avengers any team ability in place of the Avengers ability in Golden age rules?

Thanks.

No. The old versions of the ATAs are banned from tournament play.

<Nelson Muntz>

Ha ha!

[Questions]

No. The old versions of the ATAs are banned from tournament play.

And for anyone looking for rules support on that....

From the Player's Guide:
The following feat cards are banned as they have been replaced by an Alternate Team Ability card: Alpha Flight, Amazon, Checkmate, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, Guardians of the Galaxy, Justice League International, League of Assassins, Legionnaires, Monster Society of Evil, Runaways, The Society, Squadron Supreme, and Thunderbolts

[nivlac713]

But what about the new ones that just came out or were updated? Those are leagal in Modern right? Even though feats aren't aloud in modern, the current ATA's can be used. Right?

[lancelot]

But what about the new ones that just came out or were updated? Those are leagal in Modern right? Even though feats aren't aloud in modern, the current ATA's can be used. Right?

ATA's *are not* feats.

[Quebbster]

But what about the new ones that just came out or were updated? Those are leagal in Modern right? Even though feats aren't aloud in modern, the current ATA's can be used. Right?
Rule of thumb:
those with a black header are a-OK.
Those with an orange header are off limits.

[nivlac713]

Black heads good, gotcha.... Wait... :>

[RedDragon]

Black heads good, gotcha.... Wait... :>

WHATTTTT!!!!!!! LOL JK LOL

[rowdyoctopus]

Rule of thumb:
those with a black header are a-OK.
Those with an orange header are off limits.

The prize support ATAs for BatB (well my venue was giving them away as prizes) all have orange headers...

And it looks like those actual cards are not legal since they are still considered feats and the wordings have been changed. Wow.

[Quebbster]

The prize support ATAs for BatB (well my venue was giving them away as prizes) all have orange headers...

And it looks like those actual cards are not legal since they are still considered feats and the wordings have been changed. Wow.
Yup. Sad but true.

[tyroclix]

For instance can the Old Thunderbolts card still give Avengers any team ability in place of the Avengers ability in Golden age rules?

Thanks.

Golden Age and Modern Age follow the same rules. The only difference is Golden Age allows you to use any figures in your collection and you may use Feats, Bystander Tokens and Battlefield Conditions in addition to the Alternate Team Abilities and Figures allowed by Modern Age.

Some people get confused thinking there are 2 sets of rules. There aren't. 1 set for either Ages.

[tyroclix]

The prize support ATAs for BatB (well my venue was giving them away as prizes) all have orange headers...

And it looks like those actual cards are not legal since they are still considered feats and the wordings have been changed. Wow.

They have the correct script that an ATA requires. The only difference is the Orange Header. I don't see how that would make them "illegal"?

Plus WK has fallen asleep on the job by not producing any other versions.

You couldn't call them "feats" as they are now Alternate Team Abilities and must follow the rules as such. Here are the rules for Alternate Team Abilities (from Player's GUide pg 21):

General
 Alternate Team Abilities must be used and costed for all qualified team members on your force.
 Alternate Team Abilities cannot be used by a character during a free action granted by being successfully hit with Mind Control.
 Unless an Alternate Team Ability says otherwise, the team ability it grants is in addition to any other team ability the character can currently use.

Note, it does not say ATA's must have a black header and have their number begin with AT.

The BatB ATA's are all legal and do not need any change.

[Questions]

Golden Age and Modern Age follow the same rules. The only difference is Golden Age allows you to use any figures in your collection and you may use Feats, Bystander Tokens and Battlefield Conditions in addition to the Alternate Team Abilities and Figures allowed by Modern Age.

Bystanders from the appropriate sets are allowed in Modern Age. That would be from Avengers onward under the current scheme.

They have the correct script that an ATA requires. The only difference is the Orange Header. I don't see how that would make them "illegal"?

They have been banned.

From the Player's Guide:
The following feat cards are banned as they have been replaced by an Alternate Team Ability card: Alpha Flight, Amazon, Checkmate, Fantastic Four, Green Lantern, Guardians of the Galaxy,Justice League International, League of Assassins, Legionnaires, Monster Society of Evil, Runaways, The Society, Squadron Supreme, and Thunderbolts

Plus WK has fallen asleep on the job by not producing any other versions.

While I don't think WizKids has provided us the tools that they should for Print and Play, they have provided these ATAs as black bordered ATAs. (Even if they haven't updated their own gallery.) Click here (http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2010/06/17/normal-distribution-players-guide-update-and-more/) to get all the DC ATAs.

Note, it does not say ATA's must have a black header and have their number begin with AT.

The BatB ATA's are all legal and do not need any change.

See above where the rules state that the orange bordered feat/ATAs are banned. (And the new black bordered ones don't list numbers since ATAs are not tied to a set anymore.)

[CFGuy]

Check with the judge at your venue.

Until Wizkids produces an actual real card to replace the old ATAs, we are still allowing the old orange ATAs to be used.

[Maraud]

Check with the judge at your venue.

Until Wizkids produces an actual real card to replace the old ATAs, we are still allowing the old orange ATAs to be used.

There has been. its at their website. You just got to print it out.

Edit: and if your to lazy to copy and past and everything else I believe mobilehorror has them scaled for print.

[rowdyoctopus]

Wizkids has yet to post any cards for print and play in their downloads section, including the new ATAs.

All they have is the player's guide. The PG lists the current wordings for everything, but is not considered a legal replacement for the cards. My venue allows it, but we are pretty casual.

[Maraud]

Wizkids has yet to post any cards for print and play in their downloads section, including the new ATAs.

All they have is the player's guide. The PG lists the current wordings for everything, but is not considered a legal replacement for the cards. My venue allows it, but we are pretty casual.

Just b/c its not in the download section does not make it illegal.
They do have them on the site here
http://heroclix.com/blog/2010/06/17/normal-distribution-players-guide-update-and-more/

[rowdyoctopus]

I never said they were illegal. The old cards ARE illegal per the player's guide. What I said was that the Player's Guide is not considered legal to use AS a feat card.

I also said specifically that they have yet to put the cards in their downloads section. Yeah, they have them on the site, but you have to search through their blog posts to find it.

[CFGuy]

There has been. its at their website. You just got to print it out.

Edit: and if your to lazy to copy and past and everything else I believe mobilehorror has them scaled for print.

It has nothing to do with being too lazy. I don't do print and play period.
If Wizkids is too cheap to produce the cards, then as far as I am concerned they don't exist.

Since it is up to the venue on how they handle print and play, we have chosen to allow the old cards. For the guys that don't mind doing Wizkids job for them, and printing the cards, we allow that as well.

[Questions]

All they have is the player's guide. The PG lists the current wordings for everything, but is not considered a legal replacement for the cards. My venue allows it, but we are pretty casual.

Actually, if you cut out the description from the Player's Guide, it should be legal.

From the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules:
1.2.11 Print and Play: Any Printed Element of a HeroClix game piece may be printed and used as if it were an official element. The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age. Printed elements include: Character cards (but not the figure itself), bystander tokens, feat cards, battlefield condition cards, special object cards (but not a 3D object itself).

Nothing in the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules says that the card must be from the WizKids website, only in the original version, or with the original artwork. There is one requirement as bolded above. A printed element that is directly from the Player's Guide would "not represent the game text differently than...how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." As such, it should be perfectly acceptable.

[Harpua]

Actually, if you cut out the description from the Player's Guide, it should be legal.

From the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules:


Nothing in the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules says that the card must be from the WizKids website, only in the original version, or with the original artwork. There is one requirement as bolded above. A printed element that is directly from the Player's Guide would "not represent the game text differently than...how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." As such, it should be perfectly acceptable.

As always it is going to be up to the judge of the event on how loosely they rule that.

Officially, this interpretation is wrong.

The "printed element" is the card...the whole card. There is more to the card than just the text.

If you showed up at GenCon with a sheet of paper that looked like a ransom note of PG text entries taped to it, and it was brought to the attention of the judge, then you would be DQed if you couldn't also produce a facsimile (or original) of the whole card.

[markrochip]

Are the updated ATAs (originally released from Golden Age sets) still considered Modern Age?

For example: if the ATA was originally released in Supernova, is it Golden Age? Or are all Black-Top ATA's now considered Modern Age? If so, are ATAs elements that will never "age"?

[Quebbster]

Are the updated ATAs (originally released from Golden Age sets) still considered Modern Age?

For example: if the ATA was originally released in Supernova, is it Golden Age? Or are all Black-Top ATA's now considered Modern Age? If so, are ATAs elements that will never "age"?
ATAs are not considered part of any set, so any ATA can be used in Modern Age games.

[Questions]

As always it is going to be up to the judge of the event on how loosely they rule that.

Officially, this interpretation is wrong.

The "printed element" is the card...the whole card. There is more to the card than just the text.

If you showed up at GenCon with a sheet of paper that looked like a ransom note of PG text entries taped to it, and it was brought to the attention of the judge, then you would be DQed if you couldn't also produce a facsimile (or original) of the whole card.

If that's going to be the rule, the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules should say that. They clearly do not. The HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules clearly give a choice. If that choice doesn't exist, the rules should reflect that. (Looking at current BFCs and Feats there isn't more to the card really than the text, point value, and set designation...the Player's Guide provides all that. There no longer is artwork.) Why have rules if they are not going to be followed? If the rules require a facsimile of the whole card, why not say that?

[Harpua]

If that's going to be the rule, the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules should say that. They clearly do not. The HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules clearly give a choice. If that choice doesn't exist, the rules should reflect that. (Looking at current BFCs and Feats there isn't more to the card really than the text, point value, and set designation...the Player's Guide provides all that. There no longer is artwork.) Why have rules if they are not going to be followed? If the rules require a facsimile of the whole card, why not say that?

The rules ARE followed. The rules DO clearly say that.

This "choice" you refer to is not a choice. It is there to cover the way we have things now. Cards that are printed but still have old text. Cards which have been updated via the PG.

[Questions]

The rules ARE followed. The rules DO clearly say that.

This "choice" you refer to is not a choice. It is there to cover the way we have things now. Cards that are printed but still have old text. Cards which have been updated via the PG.

Explain what you mean. Are you saying the rules are a contradiction? "The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." Are you saying that it's not a choice, but rather you are required to do both a and b? So the card can't be different than how it originally appeared and it must worded as per the Player's Guide? (Which is impossible to do with any printed element that has been errated.) Is that what the rules are saying?

[Harpua]

Explain what you mean. Are you saying the rules are a contradiction? "The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." Are you saying that it's not a choice, but rather you are required to do both a and b? So the card can't be different than how it originally appeared and it must worded as per the Player's Guide? (Which is impossible to do with any printed element that has been errated.) Is that what the rules are saying?

There's no contradiction, either.

First and foremost it says:
"1.2.11 Print and Play: Any Printed Element of a HeroClix game piece may be printed and used as if it were an official element."

The printed element, as I stated above is the ENTIRE card. That line right there is sufficiently clear to say that you can't bring just the text.

(Printed elements are defined below in the same entry. Please note that the definition doesn't say "just the text of..." those items.)

Now....
"The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age."
There is no choice there.

What this says is that the printed element (the whole card) must have the text which was originally printed on the card or if the card has been updated, it must have that text.

That's not a choice. It is a description of what must be on the printed element (the whole card) which is what you are required to have.




"Printed elements include: Character cards (but not the figure itself), bystander tokens, feat cards, battlefield condition cards, special object cards (but not a 3D object itself)."
As noted above, you may observe that this definition does not say "text only" or anything similar.

[Questions]

There's no contradiction, either.

First and foremost it says:
"1.2.11 Print and Play: Any Printed Element of a HeroClix game piece may be printed and used as if it were an official element."

The printed element, as I stated above is the ENTIRE card. That line right there is sufficiently clear to say that you can't bring just the text.

(Printed elements are defined below in the same entry. Please note that the definition doesn't say "just the text of..." those items.)

Now that I see where you are coming from, I can see the argument for the entire card. It doesn't say the entire card, but I see your implication that the entire card would be required.

Now....
"The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age."
There is no choice there.

What this says is that the printed element (the whole card) must have the text which was originally printed on the card or if the card has been updated, it must have that text.

That's not a choice. It is a description of what must be on the printed element (the whole card) which is what you are required to have.

Here I disagree with you. There is a clear contradiction/impossibility in the rules.

If someone says to you: "Do not go in the kitchen or the cellar," that essentially means the following two things:

Do not go in the kitchen.
Do not go in the cellar.

Looking at the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules, they say: "The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." Broken down this means:

A. The printed element must not represent the game text differently than how the printed element originally appeared.

B. The printed element must not represent the game text differently than how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age.

As you've explained, there is no choice. You must do A and you must do B. Where an errata has been made, it is impossible to do A and to do B. To do A, you must have the printed element including the game text exactly how it originally appeared. To do B, you must have the the printed element with the game text as currently ruled/worded in the Heroclix Player's Guide: Golden Age. If there is an errata, you cannot possibly do that.

It does not say you can do A or you can do B (remember, there is no choice). It says you must do A AND B.

"Printed elements include: Character cards (but not the figure itself), bystander tokens, feat cards, battlefield condition cards, special object cards (but not a 3D object itself)."
As noted above, you may observe that this definition does not say "text only" or anything similar.

I've never disputed that the rules describe what qualifies as a printed element. It's silent about whether artwork, etc. are required, but again, I can see your argument that the artwork is required.

[Harpua]

Now that I see where you are coming from, I can see the argument for the entire card. It doesn't say the entire card, but I see your implication that the entire card would be required.



Here I disagree with you. There is a clear contradiction/impossibility in the rules.

If someone says to you: "Do not go in the kitchen or the cellar," that essentially means the following two things:

Do not go in the kitchen.
Do not go in the cellar.

Looking at the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules, they say: "The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age." Broken down this means:

A. The printed element must not represent the game text differently than how the printed element originally appeared.

B. The printed element must not represent the game text differently than how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age.

As you've explained, there is no choice. You must do A and you must do B. Where an errata has been made, it is impossible to do A and to do B. To do A, you must have the printed element including the game text exactly how it originally appeared. To do B, you must have the the printed element with the game text as currently ruled/worded in the Heroclix Player's Guide: Golden Age. If there is an errata, you cannot possibly do that.

It does not say you can do A or you can do B (remember, there is no choice). It says you must do A AND B.



I've never disputed that the rules describe what qualifies as a printed element. It's silent about whether artwork, etc. are required, but again, I can see your argument that the artwork is required.

There's NO choice, but there is no contradiction.

If there has been no change to the text of the card, then A applies.

OR

If there has been a change to the text via the player's guide, then B applies.

At the moment, B is a little tricky. The ultimate goal is that previously issued feats will be updated via PnP to include the most recent text. Until that happens, however, you have to use option A as there is no PnP version with the proper text. If you want to have the PnP version of the older feat and staple the PG text to it, that's fine, heck I'd even encourage it, but I can assure you that the official ruling is that you need to have a printout of the actual card, not just the text.

Moreover, you need a printed out copy for each instance of use.

[Questions]

There's NO choice, but there is no contradiction.

If there has been no change to the text of the card, then A applies.

OR

If there has been a change to the text via the player's guide, then B applies.

That's an extremely generous reading of what it says. It may be what's intended, but it in no way says that. (See my examples.)

At the moment, B is a little tricky. The ultimate goal is that previously issued feats will be updated via PnP to include the most recent text. Until that happens, however, you have to use option A as there is no PnP version with the proper text.

Where is that exception in the rules? If what you said above is true (I maintain it doesn't say that, but you've argued it does), then you must do B when there is an errata. The rules do not make an exception the way you're reading them.

If you want to have the PnP version of the older feat and staple the PG text to it, that's fine, heck I'd even encourage it, but I can assure you that the official ruling is that you need to have a printout of the actual card, not just the text.

I'm willing to agree that artwork is required. Since there is an obvious contradiction in the rules, I didn't read it the way you did. I originally read to remove a contradiction which basically made "The printed element must not represent the game text differently than (a) how the printed element originally appeared or (b) how the printed element is currently ruled/worded as per the HeroClix Player’s Guide: Golden Age," the only requirement. In other words, I read that as only requiring text. I can see your argument requiring artwork.

Moreover, you need a printed out copy for each instance of use.

Because of the Player's Guide, not the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules. (I don't think the HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules address that issue one way or the other.)

[Surfer13]

Well, please do whatever you can to inform Wizkids that they should give all players an official Print and Play source on their website.

They keep telling us what we need to do but do not give us the tools to make it happen. If they want us to have printed feats, up to date and in their entirety, then shouldn't they have the responsibility to provide an image of the feat for us to print?

The ATAs are only found by searching through old posts on their site, and I am not even sure that the Marvel ATAs were ever even made. I am not saying that they weren't, just that I do not recall seeing them and if I did I certainly do not remember where and have no clues just by looking at the post headers. Nothing like "The Marvel ATAs are here!" to be found.

[Questions]

Well, please do whatever you can to inform Wizkids that they should give all players an official Print and Play source on their website.

They keep telling us what we need to do but do not give us the tools to make it happen. If they want us to have printed feats, up to date and in their entirety, then shouldn't they have the responsibility to provide an image of the feat for us to print?

The ATAs are only found by searching through old posts on their site, and I am not even sure that the Marvel ATAs were ever even made. I am not saying that they weren't, just that I do not recall seeing them and if I did I certainly do not remember where and have no clues just by looking at the post headers. Nothing like "The Marvel ATAs are here!" to be found.

First, complete agreement with your sentiment. (The Marvel ATAs were made. They are in the easy to find article titled "Normal Distribution – GenCon Update! (http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2010/07/23/normal-distribution-gencon-update/)" because what announces the Marvel TAs better than that?)

On a side note, even the WizKids gallery includes now banned feat versions of some of the ATAs. If WizKids wants to create rules, they should be willing to play by them.

[Harpua]

If WizKids wants to create rules, they should be willing to play by them.

And harping on it like this will get that done as easy as 1, 2, 3, 4.:rolleyes:


But really, how are they not "playing by the rules" here?

They've published everything which is only available via print and play. It may not be directly accessible, but it is there.

The old versions are still there. So what? They're presence doesn't change the fact that they're not usable.

[Questions]

And harping on it like this will get that done as easy as 1, 2, 3, 4.:rolleyes:

It might get WizKids to change the rules. The rules possee (deputies and arbitrator) do read most of the threads in this rules forum (you included) and has the best contact with WizKids and could get a change to the rules. (Although I'll say with dismay that it's near impossible to get a change to the rules. We've seen that opposition time after time.)

But really, how are they not "playing by the rules" here?

They've published everything which is only available via print and play. It may not be directly accessible, but it is there.

I disagree that the rules say this, but you said that when the text of a feat or BFC has been changed via the player's guide, then the printed element must include that wording. You've also acknowledged that doing that is extremely difficult because WizKids hasn't made updated feats/BFCs available. Creating a rule when you don't provide the tools for people to follow those rules is not playing by your own rules.

WizKids also hasn't made the older feats/BFCs available on their own site, nor have they organized the ATAs in an easy to find manner. (It really shouldn't be that difficult to put the corrected ATAs in the gallery. It should be as easy as 1, 2, 3, 4.) I don't think a player should be required to go to an outside source (something other than WizKids' website) to participate in Print and Play.

Print and Play should actually be as easy as cutting from the Player's Guide. What is the rationale for not making this the rule?

The old versions are still there. So what? They're presence doesn't change the fact that they're not usable.

Why list a banned element? How does that enhance the game? How does it not confuse a new player who goes to the WizKids' website?