View Full Version : Dr. Manhattan (scenario) VS. Duo Attack
Well, I am looking forward to running the Dr. Manhattan scenario for my players on Sunday, but I do have one nagging question that I believe I already have the answer to. Can a Duo attack hit both times before taking a single retaliation from the scenario rules or would it be after each individual attack of the Duo Attack? When I first thought about it I was thinking that it would be both, but upon closer reading of the rules and ability I think Dr. Manhattan would get to attack each time he was hit by the duo attack.
Scenario rules:
Dr. Manhattan attacks only when he takes damage. Immediately after a power, ranged attack, or close combat action is resolved from which Dr. Manhattan takes damage, Dr. Manhattan takes an action.
Duo Attack:
Give this character a power action to make a duo attack. This character has :bolt: for this action. It makes a ranged or close combat attack as a free action. After the attack resolves, it may make an additional close or ranged combat attack as a free action with its damage value modified by -1 to a minimum of 1. If this character is defeated or loses Duo Attack as a result of the first attack, the second attack is not made.
The opening clause for the Scenario rules is what leads me to believe that if Dr. Manhattan is attacked by a Duo attack that he would retaliate on each attack. Now I could be wrong here as the next line does state that immediately after the power action is resolved is when that retaliation is performed. It’s been a long time sense I’ve played in a colossal scenario that I think I am making the right call on this. But I do have that nagging feeling in the back of my mind saying that I might be off. Any help would be great for my players so that I don’t give them a bad call.
Respectfully,
Ian “Hpred” Duncan
i don't know the answer to that, but different question came up when we played this Saturday. Does Invisible Woman's power allow her to escape retribution of Dr. M's counter attack? he doesn't ignore stealth, etc, so would he ignore IW? she has some power saying she can't be targetted for a ranged attacks or something.
Well, I am looking forward to running the Dr. Manhattan scenario for my players on Sunday, but I do have one nagging question that I believe I already have the answer to. Can a Duo attack hit both times before taking a single retaliation from the scenario rules or would it be after each individual attack of the Duo Attack? When I first thought about it I was thinking that it would be both, but upon closer reading of the rules and ability I think Dr. Manhattan would get to attack each time he was hit by the duo attack.
The opening clause for the Scenario rules is what leads me to believe that if Dr. Manhattan is attacked by a Duo attack that he would retaliate on each attack. Now I could be wrong here as the next line does state that immediately after the power action is resolved is when that retaliation is performed. It’s been a long time sense I’ve played in a colossal scenario that I think I am making the right call on this. But I do have that nagging feeling in the back of my mind saying that I might be off. Any help would be great for my players so that I don’t give them a bad call.
Respectfully,
Ian “Hpred” Duncan
I already brought this up to Norm for an answer.
I read it that you could get both attacks off before the good doctor retaliates, but the wording is wonky enough that I could see it being the other way. (That's not to mention that the older colossals retaliated after the attack, not the action.)
i don't know the answer to that, but different question came up when we played this Saturday. Does Invisible Woman's power allow her to escape retribution of Dr. M's counter attack? he doesn't ignore stealth, etc, so would he ignore IW? she has some power saying she can't be targetted for a ranged attacks or something.
Accually tyroman, the big Doc does ignore stealth.
Powers & Abilities (Scenario):
Dr. Manhattan ignores the Exploit Weakness, Force Blast, Incapacitate, Mind Control, Poison, Penetrating/Psychic Blast, Shape Change, and Stealth powers of opposing characters. As wells as any game effects that duplicate the effects of those powers.
i don't know the answer to that, but different question came up when we played this Saturday. Does Invisible Woman's power allow her to escape retribution of Dr. M's counter attack? he doesn't ignore stealth, etc, so would he ignore IW? she has some power saying she can't be targetted for a ranged attacks or something.
He would not ignore her power.
Thank you Harpua, I want my players to have fun on sunday so I want to get it strait as quickly as possable. Can't wait to see how it's ruled.
red king
08/24/2010, 14:17
I believe he would retaliate after each attack from the duo fig.
nivlac713
08/24/2010, 14:18
My imput doesn't matter, but here we go anyway: Doc Man says when an action resolves. Duo is a power action that grants other actions. They are all within the Duo action however and its that power action your waiting for to resolve before Doc Man can act. So I'd say you get both attacks from Duo just like you would get both attacks from Flurry. Again, thats just me and it means nothing, but there ya go anyway :>
duo attack is a power action that grants ranged attacks or close combat attacks. Doc retaliates after a power action, ranged attack, or cc attack. If you use ranged attack option of duo attack, I would think Doc get retaliation after each attack does damage. If you use close combat attacks, I think Doc would not be able to retaliate until both attacks resolve as they are not close combat actions.
fillonius
08/24/2010, 14:44
Using the quotes above, it sounds like the Doc would retaliate at the end of the Duo Attack. He retaliates to the resolution of a power, ranged combat, or close combat action (not attack). The Duo Attack is a power action granting two free attacks. That said, I know the official ruling could go either way...
Scenario rules:
Dr. Manhattan attacks only when he takes damage. Immediately after a power, ranged attack, or close combat action is resolved from which Dr. Manhattan takes damage, Dr. Manhattan takes an action.
I based my answer on this quote from his scenario's rules.
Questions
08/24/2010, 15:25
i don't know the answer to that, but different question came up when we played this Saturday. Does Invisible Woman's power allow her to escape retribution of Dr. M's counter attack? he doesn't ignore stealth, etc, so would he ignore IW? she has some power saying she can't be targetted for a ranged attacks or something.
He would not ignore her power.
In other words, Susan Richards could escape retribution from Dr. Manhattan. (See hpred regarding Stealth.)
duo attack is a power action that grants ranged attacks or close combat attacks. Doc retaliates after a power action, ranged attack, or cc attack. If you use ranged attack option of duo attack, I would think Doc get retaliation after each attack does damage. If you use close combat attacks, I think Doc would not be able to retaliate until both attacks resolve as they are not close combat actions.
I based my answer on this quote from his scenario's rules.
The quote was actually incorrect.
From the Dr. Manhattan Scenario Rules:
Dr. Manhattan attacks only when he takes damage. Immediately after a power, ranged combat, or close combat action is resolved from which Dr. Manhattan takes damage, Dr. Manhattan takes an action.
As written, the scenario requires actions, not attacks.
ok, then I will now flip flop and change my answer to....
yes, doc manhattan will retaliate after each attack made by the duo figure in question.
edit: ugh, I can't believe I wrote this... Questions is correct (below this post)
Questions
08/24/2010, 15:41
ok, then I will now flip flop and change my answer to....
yes, doc manhattan will retaliate after each attack made by teh duo figure in question.
I would have thought you'd go the other way. Dr. Manhattan retaliates immediately after a power, ranged combat, or close combat action is resolved. Like you said earlier, Duo Attack is a power action that allows a close combat attack or a ranged combat attack as a free action (not power action, ranged combat action, or close combat action). It then allows another close combat attack or ranged combat attack as a free action (again, not a power action, ranged combat action, or close combat action.) Then the power action resolves. As written, this would seem to be when Dr. Manhattan would attack since it is the first time that a power, ranged combat, or close combat action has resolved. So as written, Dr. Manhattan should only retaliate once after the entire Duo Attack resolves.
Xer0Gravity
08/24/2010, 16:06
I played a scenario game with my group a few weeks back, and the way it was worded to me, it only specifies actions, and not attacks for retaliation ("Immediately after a power, ranged combat, or close combat action is resolved from which Dr. Manhattan takes damage, Dr. Manhattan takes an action.")
The KEY difference to me for that in comparison to past colossals, such as the Spectre, is Dr. Manhattan specifies Power, Close or Ranged Combat Actions, versus other colossals specifying ANY action, which would include free actions such as Poison, or the Free Actions that grant Close Combat Attacks in powers such as Flurry or Hypersonic Speed ("After the action that dealt The Spectre damage
resolves, The Spectre immediately takes an action")
So I ruled against the Dr. that way, but then he proceeded to get the tar beaten out of him by my group. Granted, there was a large point handicap going against Manhattan, but in past colossal games there have been handicaps and it was still a close game. This one was not... I'd imagine it'd have been much closer if he was able to retaliate after Free Actions as well.
Questions
08/24/2010, 16:21
The KEY difference to me for that in comparison to past colossals, such as the Spectre, is Dr. Manhattan specifies Power, Close or Ranged Combat Actions, versus other colossals specifying ANY action, which would include free actions such as Poison, or the Free Actions that grant Close Combat Attacks in powers such as Flurry or Hypersonic Speed ("After the action that dealt The Spectre damage
resolves, The Spectre immediately takes an action")
I don't think Flurry under the Blackest Night PAC would allow Spectre to retaliate after each attack, but it might let Spectre attack twice in a row.
From the Spectre Rules:
The Spectre attacks only when it takes damage. After the action that dealt The Spectre damage resolves, The Spectre immediately takes an action, either a close combat, ranged combat, or power action.
From the Blackest Night PAC:
FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. After the close combat attack resolves, it may make a second close combat attack as a free action. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.
Flurry is a close combat action that allows a close combat attack followed by a free action that allows a second close combat attack. So it would go something like this:
Close combat action begins (Flurry is activated)
Close combat attack begins
Close combat attack ends
Free action begins
Close combat attack begins
Close combat attack ends
Free action ends
Spectre retaliates
Close combat action ends
Spectre retaliates
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 16:27
i don't know the answer to that, but different question came up when we played this Saturday. Does Invisible Woman's power allow her to escape retribution of Dr. M's counter attack? he doesn't ignore stealth, etc, so would he ignore IW? she has some power saying she can't be targetted for a ranged attacks or something.
no he can't target her but if there is a legal target within his range he can target them. then use his SP clearing the skies to PW her off the map.
Questions
08/24/2010, 16:45
no he can't target her but if there is a legal target within his range he can target them. then use his SP clearing the skies to PW her off the map.
That's interesting. If Dr. Manhattan is 7 or more squares from Susan Richards, can he Pulse Wave her?
From the Player's Guide:
Invisible: Any character that is 7 or more squares from Susan Richards can’t draw a line of fire to her.
From the Player's Guide:
Give this character a ranged combat action; halve its range value until the action has been resolved. Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack. At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power. If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored. If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1and is locked. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters.
It's always been explained that Pulse Wave is done by essentially running down the power as a checklist so:
1) Give Dr. Manhattan a ranged combat action. Then halve his range value until the action has been resolved.
No problem so far.
2) Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
We know that a LOF to Susan Richards is not blocked; it simply cannot be drawn. (This is why HoT Captain America cannot draw a LOF to her.) So this would mean that if Susan Richards is 7 or more squares from Dr. Manhattan then LOF cannot be drawn to her.
3) All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack.
No LOF is drawn to her, so any of her powers, including Invisible, are not ignored.
4) At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power.
So there must be at least one opposing character with a LOF drawn to it. Susan Richards does not count.
5) If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored.
Doesn't apply since no LOF was drawn to her in the first place.
6) If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1and is locked.
Wouldn't apply to Susan Richards.
7) Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters.
Since no LOF was drawn to Susan Richards, she would not be hit.
Bat-Phreak
08/24/2010, 16:55
CLEAR THE SKIES: Dr. Manhattan can use Penetrating/Psychic Blast. After Dr. Manhattan uses Penetrating/Psychic Blast, he can immediately use Pulse Wave as a free action. When using Pulse Wave as a free action, Dr. Manhattan's range value is not halved, but only characters with any of the following symbols have lines of fire drawn to them: {flight},{flight-transport},{giant},{colossal}
Since his range is not halved, Susan Richards would be within Dr M's CLEAR THE SKIES range. All her Powers would be ignored for the attack.
nivlac713
08/24/2010, 17:15
I gotta say that she would be hit. Pulse wave ignores all powers, traits, exetera. By your explaination Question, pulse wave wouldn't work against Stealth either, but it most definately does. The only power, trait, TA, etc. that works through pulsewave to date is Uliks Defense ability, as far as I know. I would agree that you might not be able to target IW initially with Pulsewave, but if you are setting it off because of someone else and she is in the range, yeah, she's getting hit, just like all the little stealthers.
Questions
08/24/2010, 17:16
Since his range is not halved, Susan Richards would be within Dr M's CLEAR THE SKIES range. All her Powers would be ignored for the attack.
I don't think that would change much. Step 1 (in my explanation) would be explained different, but I still don't think Dr. Manhattan can draw a LOF to Susan Richards if she is 7 or more squares away and if LOF cannot be drawn to her, then her powers cannot be ignored.
Questions
08/24/2010, 17:22
I gotta say that she would be hit. Pulse wave ignores all powers, traits, exetera. By your explaination Question, pulse wave wouldn't work against Stealth either, but it most definately does. The only power, trait, TA, etc. that works through pulsewave to date is Uliks Defense ability, as far as I know. I would agree that you might not be able to target IW initially with Pulsewave, but if you are setting it of because off someone else and she is in the range, yeah, she's getting hit, just like all the little stealthers.
Stealth works differently and nbperp has explained this. Let's look at the example with Stealth using any Pulse Waver.
1) Give Pulse Waver a ranged combat action. Then halve its range value until the action has been resolved.
No problem so far.
2) Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
Here we draw a LOF to a character in Stealth since with Stealth, hindering terrain causes the LOF to be blocked. Since the LOF is only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain, hindering terrain will not block the LOF.
3) All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack.
Since a LOF has been drawn, we now ignore all powers used by the character including Stealth.
The rest will happen as you expect because a successful LOF has been drawn and Stealth has thereby been ignored. The same does not happen wih Susan Richards.
Look at my explanation earlier and tell me which step you think has the error.
nivlac713
08/24/2010, 17:29
Hmmm... well I guess that makes sense... Still seems wrong to me though. Prolly more from a makes no sense place then a rules place, but there ya go. Guess it would flow around her as it nails everyone else in an all encompasing ball o' death :>
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 17:51
sorry question, but you are wrong. PW doesn't need LOF it even ignores other characters. anyone with its ranges is hit. unless blocked by blocking terrain or being off the rim of elevated terrain.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 17:54
2) Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
you added this part sorry. read the PAC again please.
Questions
08/24/2010, 18:07
sorry question, but you are wrong. PW doesn't need LOF....
I'm not sure why you think Pulse Wave does not need a LOF.
From the Player's Guide:
Give this character a ranged combat action; halve its range value until the action has been resolved. Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack. At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power. If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored. If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1and is locked. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters.
It clearly says it above. (Bolded).
... it even ignores other characters.
The reason that characters do not block the LOF is because Pulse Wave says so. (Marked in red above.) Pulse Wave says that the lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. If characters was listed there, then characters would block the LOF. Since characters are not listed there, characters do not block the LOF.
anyone with its ranges is hit.
It doesn't say that. It says anyone with a LOF drawn to it can be hit. (See the bolded part above.)
unless blocked by blocking terrain or being off the rim of elevated terrain.
Or by walls. But that's because it specifically says that walls, blocking and elevated terrain don't block the LOF. (See the red section above.) It doesn't deal with Susan Richards. Keep in mind that the LOF to Susan Richards is not being blocked. Rather, the LOF to Susan Richards simply cannot be drawn. These are two very different concepts.
2) Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
you added this part sorry. read the PAC again please.
I'm not sure what you are trying to point out.
From the Player's Guide:
Invisible: Any character that is 7 or more squares from Susan Richards can’t draw a line of fire to her.
By the way, one way around this would be for "can" (Pulse Wave) to triumph over "can't" (Susan Richards). I'm not sure if we'll get such a ruling, though.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:22
these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
you just answered your own question here. is she a wall? no. is she blocking terrain? no.
from the rules book/ BLOCKING TERRAIN: terrain that prevents movement & an attacker from drawing a clear line of fire. squares within a brown border are blocking terrain.
her SP says wait let me paste it here.
INVISIBLE:#Any character that is 7 or more spaces from Susan Richards can't draw a line of fire to her.
doesn't anything about blocked or blocking terrain. just can't fraw a line of fire.
Questions
08/24/2010, 18:24
these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
you just answered your own question here. is she a wall? no. is she blocking terrain? no.
from the rules book/ BLOCKING TERRAIN: terrain that prevents movement & an attacker from drawing a clear line of fire. squares within a brown border are blocking terrain.
her SP says wait let me paste it here.
RedDragon: Does her power (Invisible) block LOF?
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:27
i'm sorry. i'm not trying to upset you. sometimes my words don't come out as i intend them. so but accept my apology.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:28
RedDragon: Does her power (Invisible) block LOF?
no sir it doesn't. it just prevents you from drawing a line of fire to her. if it did then she could draw a LOF away from herself also or either.
Questions
08/24/2010, 18:29
i'm sorry. i'm not trying to upset you. sometimes my words don't come out as i intend them. so but accept my apology.
I'm not upset (and no apology needed.) I was trying to dialogue with you to explain why I think Susan Richards will not be affected by Pulse Wave when she is 7 or more squares from the Pulse Waver. (Using your name before was part of the dialogue attempt which can be somewhat difficult to do in a public forum.)
Questions
08/24/2010, 18:33
no sir it doesn't.
And that's why I don't think she can be hit by a Pulse Wave when she is 7 or more squares from Dr. Manhattan. Her power isn't blocking LOF; rather LOF simply cannot be drawn to her. If LOF can't be drawn to her, then the rest of Pulse Wave never affects her. Her powers aren't ignored (that requires that a LOF be drawn to her) and she can't be hit by the Pulse Wave (because that too requires that a LOF be drawn to her).
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:33
its okay. i understand that i think. but i'm still interested in what you have to say. so please continue.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:36
And that's why I don't think she can be hit by a Pulse Wave when she is 7 or more squares from Dr. Manhattan. Her power isn't blocking LOF; rather LOF simply cannot be drawn to her. If LOF can't be drawn to her, then the rest of Pulse Wave never affects her. Her powers aren't ingored (that requires that a LOF be drawn to her) and she can't be hit by the Pulse Wave (because that too requires that a LOF be drawn to her).
that all sounds good until this.. these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain.
the rules have always been other SP. when game mechanics are in question.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:38
so if none if these three are there. then your LOF isn't blocked.
Questions
08/24/2010, 18:48
so if none if these three are there. then your LOF isn't blocked.
And like I said earlier, the LOF isn't being blocked. The LOF simply cannot be drawn. There is a difference between the two.
Let me ask from this direction, do you agree that a LOF is necessary to ignore powers and to hit Susan Richards?
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 18:57
And like I said earlier, the LOF isn't being blocked. The LOF simply cannot be drawn. There is a difference between the two.
Let me ask from this direction, do you agree that a LOF is necessary to ignore powers and to hit Susan Richards?
ok i'm sorry let me reword this then. if those three are not there then LOF is clear. as i understand the rules.
nivlac713
08/24/2010, 19:04
She does not BLOCK line of fire, so the part of pulse wave that talks about "Only blocked by" simply do not matter. Lines to her outside of 7 squares simply can't be made. There is nothing in PW (Or anything else as far as I know) that addresses this, and so it affects everything. If you cannot draw a line on a piece of paper, even if your line drawing abilities cannot be blocked, how would you conect dots a and b? The line can't be made.
Questions
08/24/2010, 19:10
ok i'm sorry let me reword this then. if those three are not there then LOF is clear. as i understand the rules.
I understand what you are saying, but I want to come back to it.
Do we agree that a LOF is necessary for Pulse Wave to ignore powers and for Pulse Wave to hit Susan Richards? i.e., if there is no LOF then her powers would not be ignored and Susan Richards cannot be hit by the Pulse Wave.
RedDragon
08/24/2010, 19:11
i could be wrong here. i think i'm right but i understand what you both are saying. so i quess we'll have to wait on mr. orange.
I understand what you are saying, but I want to come back to it.
Do we agree that a LOF is necessary for Pulse Wave to ignore powers and for Pulse Wave to hit Susan Richards? i.e., if there is no LOF then her powers would not be ignored and Susan Richards cannot be hit by the Pulse Wave.
It's no different than a PW against one Stealthed figure. If ignoring the power would open up LoF, then LoF can be drawn.
Questions
08/24/2010, 21:55
It's no different than a PW against one Stealthed figure. If ignoring the power would open up LoF, then LoF can be drawn.
So you disagree with nbperp's description of why PW ignores Stealth?
So you disagree with nbperp's description of why PW ignores Stealth?
Refresh my memory on that one, please.
Questions
08/24/2010, 22:04
Refresh my memory on that one, please.
He goes through a long explanation breaking Pulse Wave down into steps. You can find one example here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4837670) and another example here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4827950). If it was as easy as...ignore all powers...he's putting way too much work into his answers.
He goes through a long explanation breaking Pulse Wave down into steps. You can find one example here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4837670) and another example here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4827950). If it was as easy as...ignore all powers...he's putting way too much work into his answers.
Ok, as I understand it, his explanation is basically what I said.
Questions
08/24/2010, 22:11
Ok, as I understand it, his explanation is basically what I said.
Explain.
As I read his answer, he seems to be saying that LOF must be drawn first. And in the case of Stealth, hindering terrain has no effect on that LOF. Then after the LOF is drawn, all powers all ignored.
Are you seeing something different?
Umm...Questions, could you please take this talk about Chase Susan off of this thread. I opened this thread with the direct intent for Duo vs. Dr. Manhattan. There are already three different threads for Pulse Wave vs. Invisibility that got back from when Secret Invasion first came out.
hellboy82
08/24/2010, 22:32
Thread hogger you!
Questions
08/24/2010, 22:35
Thread hogger you!
I am. I'm bad.
Umm...Questions, could you please take this talk about Chase Susan off of this thread. I opened this thread with the direct intent for Duo vs. Dr. Manhattan. There are already three different threads for Pulse Wave vs. Invisibility that got back from when Secret Invasion first came out.
No problem. For anyone who wants to have the Susan Richards conversation, click here (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285945). (Didn't know there were so many threads about it when she came out...although I'm not sure anyone had the range to make it matter. hpred, if you could, could you maybe link some of those in my new thread?)
vBulletin® v3.7.0, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.