0 range ranged attack

[mbauers]

Can someone with 0 range make a ranged attack if adjacent to shield members to boost range?

[thjimmy]

Can someone with 0 range make a ranged attack if adjacent to shield members to boost range?

NO.

Unless:

They are targeting someone on a different elevation.

I can't think of any other exceptions.

[Amora's_best_friend]

I've perplexed my Black Panther's range to 2 before to KO a bystander that was ruining all my plans -- I hope that was within the rules?

[nivlac713]

If you had also given them elite sniper to make them a sharpshooter. Thats a bit silly though... But you could do it! Just need super senses to qualify!

[W.I.T]

Can someone with 0 range make a ranged attack if adjacent to shield members to boost range?

NO.

Unless:

They are targeting someone on a different elevation.

I can't think of any other exceptions.

Assuming the SHIELD guys are friendly, yes they can. If they were opposing, they couldn't use the TA anyway...............

[nivlac713]

I've perplexed my Black Panther's range to 2 before to KO a bystander that was ruining all my plans -- I hope that was within the rules?

Totally. Its the adjacensy thing that is wrong. Unless you have sharp shooter yu can't range attack an adjacent figure.

[cambone]

I think the OP is mentioning adjacency to refer to the SHIELD members to boost his/her range. They're not adjacent to the target.

[Questions]

Can someone with 0 range make a ranged attack if adjacent to shield members to boost range?

I've perplexed my Black Panther's range to 2 before to KO a bystander that was ruining all my plans -- I hope that was within the rules?

Assuming the SHIELD guys are friendly, yes they can. If they were opposing, they couldn't use the TA anyway...............

So yes, friendly adjacent characters can use the S.H.I.E.L.D. team ability to increase the range value of a character with a 0 printed range value to allow that character to make a ranged combat attack. (Maximum range value is 3 due to the Rule of 3.) And what Amora's_best_friend did is within the rules.

[Puuka]

Also, the Zombie Spider-Man from Supernova has a 0 range and EE. The only other way to get it is with Mjolner.

[spike1138]

If you can carry objects, you can also throw them regardless of your range value... tends to be forgotten sometimes.

[Quebbster]

Sorry, gonna have to nix this combo.
Every character has a range value printed on its
base. This is the maximum number of squares that
a character’s ranged combat attack can reach. If
the range value is greater than 0 and your character
is not adjacent to an opposing character, then your
character can make a ranged combat attack. A
character can attack in any direction, regardless of
the direction it is facing.
The bolded condition is clearly not met with a 0 range figure, so a ranged combat attack cannot be initiated.

[Questions]

Also, the Zombie Spider-Man from Supernova has a 0 range and EE.

And Super Senses. He's just begging for Elite Sniper.

[thjimmy]

I've perplexed my Black Panther's range to 2 before to KO a bystander that was ruining all my plans -- I hope that was within the rules?

Well done. :grin:

The first time I saw this was with the old Solomon Grundy. He was on the ground next to a building on the "four corners" map. His range was Perplexed to 1 and he smoked the Robin that was taunting him. It was beautiful.

[Questions]

Sorry, gonna have to nix this combo.

The bolded condition is clearly not met with a 0 range figure, so a ranged combat attack cannot be initiated.

Is this because S.H.I.E.L.D. is activated when the character makes a ranged combat attack? But since the range was 0, no ranged combat attack can be made.

How about with Perplex? Can Perplex be used to increase 0 range to make a ranged combat attack?

[thjimmy]

Sorry, gonna have to nix this combo.


Quote : Originally Posted by Rulebook, page 9 Every character has a range value printed on its
base. This is the maximum number of squares that
a character’s ranged combat attack can reach. If
the range value is greater than 0 and your character
is not adjacent to an opposing character, then your
character can make a ranged combat attack. A
character can attack in any direction, regardless of
the direction it is facing.


The bolded condition is clearly not met with a 0 range figure, so a ranged combat attack cannot be initiated.

I see where you are coming from, but once you perplex/SHIELD to increase the range by 1, the range is 1. Since it is no longer 0 a ranged attack should be an option.

[mbauers]

I see where you are coming from, but once you perplex/SHIELD to increase the range by 1, the range is 1. Since it is no longer 0 a ranged attack should be an option.

This is what I was thinking. I guess the question is when does SHIELD kick in?

It seems like Quebbster is saying I need to have at least one range to initiate a ranged combat action, and then the SHIELD kicks in.

The reason I take issue with this is because what if I have 6 range and no enemies, walls, blocking terrain, or objects are within 6. There's an enemy 7 squares away and I have a SHIELD guy (friendly) next to me. We all agree that I can shoot that guy. But how did I initiate a ranged combat attack (before the shield +1 kicks in) when there is nothing within 6 that I can shoot?

Thanks for all the responses, btw!

[nivlac713]

Sorry, gonna have to nix this combo.

The bolded condition is clearly not met with a 0 range figure, so a ranged combat attack cannot be initiated.

But if your getting a range increase from shield then your range is not 0 its 1 or whatever, so why would it not work? It doesn't say anything about modifiers so if you get it up by one or more, shoulfn't range attacks now be possible?

[normalview]

But if your getting a range increase from shield then your range is not 0 its 1 or whatever, so why would it not work? It doesn't say anything about modifiers so if you get it up by one or more, shoulfn't range attacks now be possible?

The point is you can't make a character with a range of 0 perform a ranged combat attack, period. And without a ranged combat attack, SHIELD will not activate.

If other modifiers were involved, like some prior Perplexing, so that the range value was not actually 0 when checked, then the combo should be fine.

[nivlac713]

Hmmm so you can perplex the 0 range but can't shield a 0 range... Wierd but I think I got it! Thanks.

[Questions]

What about this part of the rules?

From p. 3 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:
MAKING A RANGED COMBAT ATTACK
Characters with a Range Value greater than 0 can make ranged attacks. When an opposing character is within the range of one of your characters, you can give your character an action to make a ranged attack.

Does this mean that if an opposing character is not within the range of one of your characters, then you cannot give your character an action to make a ranged attack?

[normalview]

What about this part of the rules?

From p. 3 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:


Does this mean that if an opposing character is not within the range of one of your characters, then you cannot give your character an action to make a ranged attack?

Those are part of the basic/quick start rules. Notice that nowhere does it really tell you about combat actions, power actions, and other stuff that is normally associated with attacking.

Anything on those first couple pages, before the Core Rules begin, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am not saying that it is incorrect, but when you actually check the ranged combat rules in the Core Rules section, that particular criteria for range combat is never mentioned (or, at least, it isn't phrased in that manner).

[Questions]

Those are part of the basic/quick start rules. Notice that nowhere does it really tell you about combat actions, power actions, and other stuff that is normally associated with attacking.

Anything on those first couple pages, before the Core Rules begin, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am not saying that it is incorrect, but when you actually check the ranged combat rules in the Core Rules section, that particular criteria for range combat is never mentioned (or, at least, it isn't phrased in that manner).

That's what I was wondering. Part 1: The Basics are...(not so much.)

By the way, whatever happened to the simplification of the rules? It seems that every rule has a complication to it.

[Puuka]

The point is you can't make a character with a range of 0 perform a ranged combat attack, period. And without a ranged combat attack, SHIELD will not activate.

If other modifiers were involved, like some prior Perplexing, so that the range value was not actually 0 when checked, then the combo should be fine.

I know you're just interpreting the rules as they are written, but this is lame. (Not directing this at you, more at the ruling as per the wording of the rule)

[normalview]

That's what I was wondering. Part 1: The Basics are...(not so much.)

By the way, whatever happened to the simplification of the rules? It seems that every rule has a complication to it.

I personally think that the are much more simple than they used to be, starting with FF and now into BN. Or, at least, much more organized and easier to follow.

By breaking the rules up into the various secitons (CORE, TACTICTS, etc), you can start with one section and play a few games to get the gist of that section and then move on to the next, adding layers of complexity as you go.


That said, there are still some areas where I personally wish things were a bit different, but at the end of the day GD is the one calling the shots.

[W.I.T]

I personally think that the are much more simple than they used to be, starting with FF and now into BN. Or, at least, much more organized and easier to follow.

By breaking the rules up into the various secitons (CORE, TACTICTS, etc), you can start with one section and play a few games to get the gist of that section and then move on to the next, adding layers of complexity as you go.


That said, there are still some areas where I personally wish things were a bit different, but at the end of the day GD is the one calling the shots.

I am not going to argue with the ruling, as it's not that big a deal and that situation will come up rarely, but was this a change in the BN rulebook?

I remember a thread not that long ago (though I've searched for it and can't find it :confused:) about Zoom, and him being able to HSS up to 3 SHIELD figures to get the +3 to Range so he could make a Ranged attack with his HSS, and that if he did so, his Range would remain a 3, and not be a 2 (3 halved to 1 1/2 rounded back up to 2).

[mbauers]

The point is you can't make a character with a range of 0 perform a ranged combat attack, period. And without a ranged combat attack, SHIELD will not activate.

If other modifiers were involved, like some prior Perplexing, so that the range value was not actually 0 when checked, then the combo should be fine.

But what about my example I posted previously:

"The reason I take issue with this is because what if I have 6 range and no enemies, walls, blocking terrain, or objects are within 6. There's an enemy 7 squares away and I have a SHIELD guy (friendly) next to me. We all agree that I can shoot that guy. But how did I initiate a ranged combat attack (before the shield +1 kicks in) when there is nothing within 6 that I can shoot?"

If in my quoted example I can shoot the guy with shield, aren't we ruling that the +1 Shield modifier comes into effect before I shoot (or as part of the shot)? If I can't make a ranged combat attack unless a figure is in range (or unless I have greater than 0 range), then I shouldn't be able to shoot the figure 7 squares away in my example. If I can (and I believe we all agree that I can), then that should be applied to a zero range attack, IMO.

[Questions]

I personally think that the are much more simple than they used to be, starting with FF and now into BN. Or, at least, much more organized and easier to follow.

By breaking the rules up into the various secitons (CORE, TACTICTS, etc), you can start with one section and play a few games to get the gist of that section and then move on to the next, adding layers of complexity as you go.


That said, there are still some areas where I personally wish things were a bit different, but at the end of the day GD is the one calling the shots.

I agree that the organization of the rulebook is better. Personally, I think there were a number of changes in the Blackest Night Rulebook which make the rules more difficult to understand. (I think they were meant to clear things up, but they ultimately cause more confusion.)

It's the complexity of the game, though, which is the real problem. Every rule seems to have a slight compliation to it. For example, Replace then Modify was meant to simplify things. (In short hand, we're told that Perplex works the same as other modifiers now.) But then we still have exceptions like the one in this thread where Perplex is different than S.H.I.E.L.D. when a character with 0 range attempts to make a ranged combat attack. If it was just this thread, it wouldn't be such a big deal, but it seems every thread has a similar unnecessarily complex exception.

But this, of course, is a discussion for a different thread and a different forum.

[normalview]

But what about my example I posted previously:

"The reason I take issue with this is because what if I have 6 range and no enemies, walls, blocking terrain, or objects are within 6. There's an enemy 7 squares away and I have a SHIELD guy (friendly) next to me. We all agree that I can shoot that guy. But how did I initiate a ranged combat attack (before the shield +1 kicks in) when there is nothing within 6 that I can shoot?"

If in my quoted example I can shoot the guy with shield, aren't we ruling that the +1 Shield modifier comes into effect before I shoot (or as part of the shot)? If I can't make a ranged combat attack unless a figure is in range (or unless I have greater than 0 range), then I shouldn't be able to shoot the figure 7 squares away in my example. If I can (and I believe we all agree that I can), then that should be applied to a zero range attack, IMO.

In that case, the range value is greater than 0 and there are no adjacent opposing characters. So nothing specifically prevents a ranged combat attack. And thus nothing prevents SHIELD TA from being used.

[mbauers]

In that case, the range value is greater than 0 and there are no adjacent opposing characters. So nothing specifically prevents a ranged combat attack. And thus nothing prevents SHIELD TA from being used.

Right, but I'm referring to the excerpt from the rulebook that was quoted, specifically this part:

"When an opposing character is within the range of one of your characters, you can give your character an action to make a ranged attack."

An opposing character is not within the range of my character in my (6 range) example until SHIELD is taken into account. You're ruling against my 0-range example is based on the fact that I need greater than 0 range to initiate a ranged combat attack, and that the SHIELD ta doesn't come into account until AFTER the action is initiated.

According to the quoted text above, I can't give my (6 range example) character a ranged combat action unless an opposing character is within range. Since I can't initiate the RC action, the SHIELD TA doesn't kick in so I can't shoot.

But we know that's not true (as it would make the free action aspect of SHIELD worthless), so SHIELD must be activated BEFORE I initiate the RC action. See?

[normalview]

"When an opposing character is within the range of one of your characters, you can give your character an action to make a ranged attack."

An opposing character is not within the range of my character in my (6 range) example until SHIELD is taken into account. You're ruling against my 0-range example is based on the fact that I need greater than 0 range to initiate a ranged combat attack, and that the SHIELD ta doesn't come into account until AFTER the action is initiated.

According to the quoted text above, I can't give my (6 range example) character a ranged combat action unless an opposing character is within range. Since I can't initiate the RC action, the SHIELD TA doesn't kick in so I can't shoot.

But we know that's not true (as it would make the free action aspect of SHIELD worthless), so SHIELD must be activated BEFORE I initiate the RC action. See?

Already covered when Questions brought it up.

Those are part of the basic/quick start rules. Notice that nowhere does it really tell you about combat actions, power actions, and other stuff that is normally associated with attacking.

Anything on those first couple pages, before the Core Rules begin, should be taken with a grain of salt.

I am not saying that it is incorrect, but when you actually check the ranged combat rules in the Core Rules section, that particular criteria for range combat is never mentioned (or, at least, it isn't phrased in that manner).

[Raistwalker]

Right, but I'm referring to the excerpt from the rulebook that was quoted, specifically this part:

"When an opposing character is within the range of one of your characters, you can give your character an action to make a ranged attack."

An opposing character is not within the range of my character in my (6 range) example until SHIELD is taken into account. You're ruling against my 0-range example is based on the fact that I need greater than 0 range to initiate a ranged combat attack, and that the SHIELD ta doesn't come into account until AFTER the action is initiated.

According to the quoted text above, I can't give my (6 range example) character a ranged combat action unless an opposing character is within range. Since I can't initiate the RC action, the SHIELD TA doesn't kick in so I can't shoot.

But we know that's not true (as it would make the free action aspect of SHIELD worthless), so SHIELD must be activated BEFORE I initiate the RC action. See?

Another way to think about it is similar to OotS Batman:

1) I declare a ranged action with no one in range.
2) OotS kicks in because of the non-free action.

OUT OF THE SHADOWS: Once per turn, when Batman occupies hindering terrain and is given any action that is not a free action, before the action you may place Batman in any square of hindering terrain 6 or fewer squares away to which he has a clear line of fire.

3) I place Batman in hindering terrain 6 or few squares away in hindering.
4) The ranged action then checks and sees there is a figure within my range.
5) I proceed to make the ranged attack as normal.

The Shield TA would activate in step 2 above, similar to OotS.

[Clixjunkie]

The point is you can't make a character with a range of 0 perform a ranged combat attack, period. And without a ranged combat attack, SHIELD will not activate.

If other modifiers were involved, like some prior Perplexing, so that the range value was not actually 0 when checked, then the combo should be fine.

I thought you were unable to perplex a 0 range value?

[nivlac713]

I thought you were unable to perplex a 0 range value?

Why not? Is there anything anywhere saying a 0 cannot be perplexed? There shouldn't be, range is just the only 0 value you usually ever see.

[Puuka]

Also, the Zombie Spider-Man from Supernova has a 0 range and EE. The only other way to get it is with Mjolner.

Just realized you weren't asking about the "Orange Attack", it was "0 Range Attack"

[thjimmy]

Just realized you weren't asking about the "Orange Attack", it was "0 Range Attack"

That's actually why I got into this thread. I had to see what he was talking about. :grin:

[Quebbster]

The Orange attack was errata'd years ago. :)

[thanoson]

So, how far can Zombie Spidey shoot his 0 range energy explosion?

[normalview]

So, how far can Zombie Spidey shoot his 0 range energy explosion?

Barring some game effect that replaces range values, 3 squares max due to the Rule of 3.

[Questions]

So, how far can Zombie Spidey shoot his 0 range energy explosion?

Barring some game effect that replaces range values, 3 squares max due to the Rule of 3.

And that's only if you Perplex his range or increase it some other way. (We know S.H.I.E.L.D. won't work.) And if you only increase it by 1, he would need to be able to use the Sharpshooter ability to use it on an adjacent opposing character. (Although it would work fine against a character at a different elevation one square over.)

[thjimmy]

And that's only if you Perplex his range or increase it some other way. (We know S.H.I.E.L.D. won't work.)

Did we get an official ruling on this? It sounds like our interpretations, so far.

[Questions]

Did we get an official ruling on this? It sounds like our interpretations, so far.

Quebbster said it in post 11 and normalview has been backing it up throughout. (Official enough for me. :))

[spideyguy51]

I thought this said orange attack. Silly me.

[thjimmy]

Quebbster said it in post 11 and normalview has been backing it up throughout. (Official enough for me. :))

Thanks. I didn't think Quebbster's post 11 was difinitive, but looking back through normalview's post, I found this one again:

The point is you can't make a character with a range of 0 perform a ranged combat attack, period. And without a ranged combat attack, SHIELD will not activate.

And that seems to make sense. I was being lazy and not re-reading the whole thread. :nervous:

[Questions]

Thanks. I didn't think Quebbster's post 11 was difinitive....

And I thought my standards for a definitive post were high. :)

[kuthell]

When oranges attack. At 0 range.

On topic, I learn something new everyday. I tough I had my SHEILD rules pretty tight

[rowdyoctopus]

And that's only if you Perplex his range or increase it some other way. (We know S.H.I.E.L.D. won't work.) And if you only increase it by 1, he would need to be able to use the Sharpshooter ability to use it on an adjacent opposing character. (Although it would work fine against a character at a different elevation one square over.)

S.H.I.E.L.D. will work if you perplex the range ahead of time.

[charlesx]

So, how far can Zombie Spidey shoot his 0 range energy explosion?

I'm not even gonna get going on this Tuttleism. The EE on Zombie Spidey was probably meant to be red (B/C/F), but instead of admitting the mistake WK under Tuttle insisted that no, they meant it that way.

Sigh...

So glad that we have fresh leadership/new brand management these days.

[thjimmy]

I'm not even gonna get going on this Tuttleism. The EE on Zombie Spidey was probably meant to be red (B/C/F), but instead of admitting the mistake WK under Tuttle insisted that no, they meant it that way.

Sigh...

So glad that we have fresh leadership/new brand management these days.

Rep for you!

[IceHot]

Sorry, gonna have to nix this combo.

The bolded condition is clearly not met with a 0 range figure, so a ranged combat attack cannot be initiated.

I think you are taking that rule out of context.

Do you not count the rule on the opposide of the page....

BN Same Exact Page 10 other side of the book...

LINE OF FIRE
Before making a ranged combat attack, you must determine if the attacker can draw a line of fire to the target and if the target is within range.

So how could Range be bumped after the attack is declared, if range is determined before the attack is made?

I think boosts in range from 0 to 1 or more are not what these rules are refering to and doing so would be a valid exception to the rules.

Also the PG indicates that the SHIELD TA is part of the declaration of the Ranged Combat Action, so I dont see why it wouldnt be allowed.