WoS Iron Man/War Machine vs Thor and Loki

[HeraldOfNova]

I was thinking which is the better duo. I know thorki is 62 points more but i would picture it like this. I/W would push to pulse wave. Hopefully get the running pulse wave off leaving thorki on click four with battle fury.

I would outwit his indomitable so either he had to push and take the damage to base or stay at range. Afterward i would attempt to running pulse again leaving him on his second to last click.

But here lies the problem i would have to outwit his outwit leaving his duo attack and indomitable. if he misses or i hit my imprev i could try to running wave for the kill or duo to finish. This is all depending on my first pulse wave hitting and me getting the first hit or thorki missing his first shot.

Does anyone else have an opinion on which is the better duo or who would win in a 2 on 2 battle?

[konasavage]

The Mystic TA alone puts Thorki ahead in my opinion. That and the trait for invulnerability.

[maddragon13]

HA!!!! I was just about to start a thread about this very subject but you beat me to it. So rep to HeraldOfNova for being just a little quicker than myself!!! ;)

At first glance, I'd think Thor/Loki is more powerful and would win but I'll wait and see how well Iron Man/War Machine play before I make my choice on who is the better duo beat stick.

[b11a2]

That duo attack Psychic Blast would be scary against Thor/Loki. Also: instead of pushing to pulse wave, you can attack them for Mystics instead.

[Neff]

Barring freakishly one-sided dice rolls and assuming equal skill between players, Thor and Loki take Iron Man and War Machine 100% of the time.

Of course, comparing the two of them one-on-one is meaningless anyway.

[happyoptimistic88]

I was thinking which is the better duo. I know thorki is 62 points more but i would picture it like this. I/W would push to pulse wave. Hopefully get the running pulse wave off leaving thorki on click four with battle fury.

I would outwit his indomitable so either he had to push and take the damage to base or stay at range. Afterward i would attempt to running pulse again leaving him on his second to last click.

But here lies the problem i would have to outwit his outwit leaving his duo attack and indomitable. if he misses or i hit my imprev i could try to running wave for the kill or duo to finish. This is all depending on my first pulse wave hitting and me getting the first hit or thorki missing his first shot.

Does anyone else have an opinion on which is the better duo or who would win in a 2 on 2 battle?

I vote Thor/Loki.

[HeraldOfNova]

That duo attack Psychic Blast would be scary against Thor/Loki. Also: instead of pushing to pulse wave, you can attack them for Mystics instead.

In doing so you would be in range for thorki to duo attack unless you outwit it. Thorki getting the first hit in and I/W missing imprev could spell defeat for them.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I was thinking which is the better duo. I know thorki is 62 points more but i would picture it like this. I/W would push to pulse wave. Hopefully get the running pulse wave off leaving thorki on click four with battle fury.

I would outwit his indomitable so either he had to push and take the damage to base or stay at range. Afterward i would attempt to running pulse again leaving him on his second to last click.

But here lies the problem i would have to outwit his outwit leaving his duo attack and indomitable. if he misses or i hit my imprev i could try to running wave for the kill or duo to finish. This is all depending on my first pulse wave hitting and me getting the first hit or thorki missing his first shot.

Does anyone else have an opinion on which is the better duo or who would win in a 2 on 2 battle?

Would be a good battle! I will have to add this to my list of one vs. one battles I have lined up to test out.

But first comes the Clobberin' Time R-E-V set of Human of Torches vs. just the HoT Venom... which I'll try to get played this weekend.

It will be one action per turn... since Venom is outnumbered.. but I'm guessing he'll wipe all three of them (just to prove their is no point formula)...

but I digress...

Iron Man/War Machine vs. Thor and Loki - The Dynamic Duos Battle. Let's compare the dials:

ha057 E Thor and Loki
Team: Mystics and Avengers
Range: 10 :bolt::bolt:
Points: 362
Keywords: Asgardian, Deity, Mystical, Warrior
m-winga-duod-indomitableg-starburst121218510111841011174810174810174810173810163810164611164612175KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
(Special) Invulnerability: Thor and Loki can use Invulnerability

(Speed) Hammer and Glamer: Thor and Loki can use Running Shot and Shape Change

(Attack) Brawn and Brains: Thor and Loki can use Super Strength and Perplex

(Defense) Might and Mischief: (non-optional) Thor and Loki uses Battle Fury and can use Exploit Weakness

ws059 U Iron Man/War Machine
Team: Avengers
Range: 8 :bolt::bolt::bolt:
Points: 300
Keywords: Armor, Avengers, Force Works, West Coast Avengers
m-winga-duod-indomitableg-starburst12121841211184101118410111831010183101018310101839917399173KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
(Attack) Adaptive Response Armor: When Iron Man/War Machine uses the Duo Attack ability, they may choose Incapacitate, Penetrating/Psychic Blast, or Ranged Combat Expert and use that instead of one or both ranged combat attacks.

(Special) All-Out Assault: Once per game, give Iron Man/War Machine a power action that places two action tokens on them. Iron Man/War Machine possess [1 range] for this action. They can make up to 4 close and/or ranged combat attacks as free actions. An opposing character may only be targeted once during this action. After resolving this action, Iron Man/War Machine are dealt 1 unavoidable damage.

*********************

As much as I love Iron Man, I have to give the fight to Thor and Loki.

Thor and Loki are going to make some Shape Change roles. They have Perplex... and later on Outwit. There Invulnerability Trait cannot be countered.

Sure.. the Pulse Wave is awesome.. and would ignore all powers, abilities, and traits... so if using Pulsewave... if they don't get hit first... can do some serious damage. But it can't be used with the Duo Attack ability.

And Thor and Loki's damage output is much higher. Just like in the Civil War.... Iron Man would get a slobber knocker from Thor, sending him over buildings.

Even with Adaptive Response Armor... they are simply outgunned. But I'll definitely play it... and post the results.

And if if Thor and Loki are smart... they would jump right up on IM/WM... so that would nerf Penetrating / Psychic Blast, Pulse Wave, and RCE and give Thor and Loki Exploit Weakness up close with Perplex... and still have Shape Change.

However....on the flip side.. IM/WM's defensive numbers and powers are far superior... so if he can soak up some hits from Thor and Loki... their defense drops... I gotta give it to IM/WM... that is if they can somehow miraculously stay healthy... because their attack value drops while Thor and Loki's remain constant and high!

[b11a2]

In doing so you would be in range for thorki to duo attack unless you outwit it. Thorki getting the first hit in and I/W missing imprev could spell defeat for them.

To counter that you could outwit either their duo or indom. Yes leaving them with duo instead of indom can be scary, but if they push after the initial 4 dmg running shot, they hit their battle fury, and that would make things interesting.

It's a close fight, IMO.

[Renard]

To counter that you could outwit either their duo or indom. Yes leaving them with duo instead of indom can be scary, but if they push after the initial 4 dmg running shot, they hit their battle fury, and that would make things interesting.

It's a close fight, IMO.

yea that battle fury is doing no favors to Thor and Loki.

[comicbookman]

I understand that the point is to see which Duo is better, but Iron Man/War Machine are a little outgunned. Why not let them have 62 points of support figures to even things out?

[W.I.T]

IM/WM only hope is to make their Impervious roll. Thor and Loki get the first shot in, due to having the longer Range. If it hit's, and sticks, IM/WM can't even get a shot in on Thor and Loki.

Love both figures, but Thor and Loki should take this (as they should in the comics too), especially with the 62 point difference.

[comicbookman]

I/W would push to pulse wave. Hopefully get the running pulse wave off leaving thorki on click four with battle fury.

I may be a noob, but doesn't Pulse Wave get reduced to 1 damage that ignores powers? How does I/W do 4 damage with Pulse Wave?

[Quebbster]

I may be a noob, but doesn't Pulse Wave get reduced to 1 damage that ignores powers? How does I/W do 4 damage with Pulse Wave?
The damage only becomes 1 if there are multiple figures in range. If a single figure is in the blast radius you deal your damage value.

[Rurouni KJS]

IM/WM only hope is to make their Impervious roll. Thor and Loki get the first shot in, due to having the longer Range. If it hit's, and sticks, IM/WM can't even get a shot in on Thor and Loki.

T&L don't necessarily get first shot. Depends on positioning, first turn and which map. An indoor map or one with plenty of blocking evens out the swing advantage a bit.

Assuming all attacks hit and all defenses fail, if IMWM get first shot, here's how it goes:

First Round: I+W blast T+L for 2 and take 1 Mystics. They counter Duo Attack. 1 action token.
T+L hit back for 4 (Perplexed :g-starburst:) after Imperv. 1 action token.
2nd Round: I+W Super-Duo Attack first with Penetrating Blast for 3 ( and take 1 Mystics), then follow with Incap. 2 action tokens.
T+L can only clear their 2 action tokens.
3rd Round: I+W can only clear their 2 action tokens.
T+L, on Battle Fury, must now base I+W to have any chance of winning. They counter FB to prevent I+W's deadly range attacks. 1 action token.
4th Round: I+W Super Duo first for 1 ( and take 1 Mystics), then Incap T+L. 1 action token.
T+L counter FB. Clear 2 action tokens.
5th Round: I+W Super-Duo just like the past few turns, dealing 1 actual damage, taking 1 Mystics and Incapping T+L. 2 action tokens.
T+L counter FB and clear.
6th Round: I+W clear 2 action tokens.
T+L counter Invulnerability and Duo Attack, KOing I+W with the first hit.

This game ends sooner if, in Round 1, T+L Running Shot back out of I+W's range. But, as this is a dice game too, one failed attack by the Asgardians could prove disastrous for them.

[W.I.T]

T&L don't necessarily get first shot. Depends on positioning, first turn and which map. An indoor map or one with plenty of blocking evens out the swing advantage a bit.

Assuming all attacks hit and all defenses fail, if IMWM get first shot, here's how it goes:

First Round: I+W blast T+L for 2 and take 1 Mystics. They counter Duo Attack. 1 action token.
T+L hit back for 4 (Perplexed :g-starburst:) after Imperv. 1 action token.
2nd Round: I+W Super-Duo Attack first with Penetrating Blast for 3 ( and take 1 Mystics), then follow with Incap. 2 action tokens.
T+L can only clear their 2 action tokens.
3rd Round: I+W can only clear their 2 action tokens.
T+L, on Battle Fury, must now base I+W to have any chance of winning. They counter FB to prevent I+W's deadly range attacks. 1 action token.
4th Round: I+W Super Duo first for 1 ( and take 1 Mystics), then Incap T+L. 1 action token.
T+L counter FB. Clear 2 action tokens.
5th Round: I+W Super-Duo just like the past few turns, dealing 1 actual damage, taking 1 Mystics and Incapping T+L. 2 action tokens.
T+L counter FB and clear.
6th Round: I+W clear 2 action tokens.
T+L counter Invulnerability and Duo Attack, KOing I+W with the first hit.

This game ends sooner if, in Round 1, T+L Running Shot back out of I+W's range. But, as this is a dice game too, one failed attack by the Asgardians could prove disastrous for them.

One 'problem' I have with your scenario, is that IM/WM can't use PB and Incap. on the same turn when they use their SP. If they use PB, they can either use PB again for the second attack (which is probably better anyway), or they can make a regular attack. See this thread here 'Adaptive Response Armor (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287721)' for details.

And yeah, if IM/WM had countered the duo attack, there is no reason for T&L to simply sit there in range to wait for IM/WM to hit them back next turn. Once T&L can get IM/WM off of Running Shot, they can simply pick them apart at range.

Also, an indoor map, or one with blocking, hinders IM/WM the same as it hinders T&L, so I'm not seeing any advantage there. T&L should get the first attack much more often than not.

[Rurouni KJS]

One 'problem' I have with your scenario, is that IM/WM can't use PB and Incap. on the same turn when they use their SP. If they use PB, they can either use PB again for the second attack (which is probably better anyway), or they can make a regular attack.

I figured that out as I wrote it. But at that point, I just decided to finish my analysis anyway. :cheeky:

Also, an indoor map, or one with blocking, hinders IM/WM the same as it hinders T&L, so I'm not seeing any advantage there. T&L should get the first attack much more often than not.

My point is that some maps nerf superior range just by virtue of offering fewer long-ranged firing zones. Thus it comes down to Running Shot speed more that actual range value. (And here Thor & Loki still hold the advantage with Perplex able to boost the power's speed to 7 over the Stark duo's 6.)

Anyway, no matter how you look at this matchup, if both duos never miss (or make Impervious or Shape Change rolls), Iron Man/War Machine lose this one-on-one.

As part of a pair of 400-point teams, OTOH? Much less lopsided.