avengers question

[LurkMaster2000]

who among all the heroclix ever made have been a member of the avengers, but don't have a version with the avengers team ability (yet)?

e.g., i hear moondragon was in the avengers at one point...

[Badges2]

Spider-man was a reserve.

Beast was too, I think

[J.Zintel]

Mr.Fantastic ans the Invisible Woman were members for a short period. Thing was part of the West Coast team as well.

[jmarquis]

Moondragon was a Defender.

I think she was also in the Avengers at one point, but I don't remember (I have a great comic from the early 90s where Cap calls ALL the Avengers - that are living - to go out and battle in space).

Great ideas for customs, but I'll have to take a look at it.

Speaking of which - you think we'd ever see Wonder Man?

-J

[MarkFinn]

You can't count Reed Richards and Sue Richards as Avengers. They may have teamed up for short periods, but they were always first and foremost FF. It's kinda like calling Spidey, Wolverine, The Hulk, and Ghost Rider members of the FF because they were in that one three issue story...

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Badges2
Spider-man was a reserve.

Beast was too, I think

Spider-Man was never a reserve Avenger. There were several stories where he was considered, but he never joined. He never got security clearance, never got the ID Card, none of that. He is an Avengers ally, but never a reserve member.

The Beast, on the other hand, was a full-throttle Avenger for several years.

[jmarquis]

WHo was in the replacement FF when the FF apparently died?

[Thunderbolts]

Sand-Man was an Avenger for some ridiculous reason. Spider-man and Sand-man represent this on their Veteran versions, since they're wild cards.

Apart from that all the current releases have been covered. Xplosion only appears to add Iron Man.

Wonder Man? He'd probably end up too much like a Thor with Charge for them to add him any time soon, but who knows. The Avengers are certainly not short of high cost high damage beatsticks...

[Oldguynewbie]

LM2K: Moondragon was a provisional member during the period just prior to issue 150 (Beast and Hellcat were, too) when the team went to Squadron Supreme Earth, chasing the Serpent Crown. After the Avengers returned to their home Earth, Moondragon took Hellcat to Titan for additional training and Beast was made a full-fledged member (for Badges). circa 1976.

Spider-man WAS a reserve/provisional member for a few issues, about the same time Sandman came on board. He found himself overwhelmed by the awesome scope of what the Avengers routinely took on and decided it wasn't for him. Sandman stayed on. I'm a little fuzzy on the time frame in our world, but it's within the last ten years.

Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman DID become full-on Avengers for about 3 issues, I think this was around issue 400, but I could be wrong. It was during the time right after they "retired" and moved into a house in New Jersey, trying to live a "normal suburban life", but before they returned to the FF. I also think this was during the time when Ben Grimm was the Extra-rocky thing and Ms. Marvel (the wrestler) had become She-Thing. Ben was leading the FF at the time (Johnny and Crystal were the other two, IIRC), and Reed didn't want to step on his toes, so he and Sue offered to join one of Cap's incarnations of the Avengers.

Oh, and Reed and Sue were part of the main Avengers after Ben had joined and left the WCA.

I have way too much nonsense c*** in my head!

[sluggo]

Basically the shorter list is "who in the marvel universe hasn't been an Avenger"

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Oldguynewbie
LM2K: Moondragon was a provisional member during the period just prior to issue 150 (Beast and Hellcat were, too) when the team went to Squadron Supreme Earth, chasing the Serpent Crown. After the Avengers returned to their home Earth, Moondragon took Hellcat to Titan for additional training and Beast was made a full-fledged member (for Badges). circa 1976.

Maybe we should define some parameters here. Let's ignore continuity for a second here and talk about the metacontinuity. Moondragon never had her own book. She was always a bit player. However, she was a bit player who ran with the Avengers a lot. More than three issues. Off and on for a couple of years. I'd call her an Avenger.

Spider-man WAS a reserve/provisional member for a few issues, about the same time Sandman came on board. He found himself overwhelmed by the awesome scope of what the Avengers routinely took on and decided it wasn't for him. Sandman stayed on. I'm a little fuzzy on the time frame in our world, but it's within the last ten years.

Now, by my definition, a few issues doesn't REALLY, TECHNICALLY qualify Spider-Man as an Avenger. It's splitting hairs. Yeah, he might have ran with them for a couple of issues, but in my mind, that's a crossover, not a full-fledged team member. Or, more specifically, a sales gimmick. The writer never intended for Spidey to be an active Avenger. It was an attempt to get Spider-Man readers to pick up the book. Hence, no Avengers symbol (to return this to a Clix discussion).

Mr. Fantastic and Invisible Woman DID become full-on Avengers for about 3 issues, I think this was around issue 400, but I could be wrong. It was during the time right after they "retired" and moved into a house in New Jersey, trying to live a "normal suburban life", but before they returned to the FF. I also think this was during the time when Ben Grimm was the Extra-rocky thing and Ms. Marvel (the wrestler) had become She-Thing. Ben was leading the FF at the time (Johnny and Crystal were the other two, IIRC), and Reed didn't want to step on his toes, so he and Sue offered to join one of Cap's incarnations of the Avengers.

Oh, and Reed and Sue were part of the main Avengers after Ben had joined and left the WCA.

I have way too much nonsense c*** in my head!

See, I wouldn't qualify them as Avengers any more than I would qualify Spider-Man, Hulk, Ghost Rider, and Wolverine as Fantastic Four members. Do you remember that three issue series with the Art Adams artwork? It was great. But it was a crossover sales gimmick. Not an earnest team or roster change.

Since this discussion is ostensibly about who has been overlooked in Clix terms, the only real contenders by my accounting set out above are Moondragon (and I'd prefer her as a Defender) and The Beast (who I'd prefer as an Avenger). There are a lot of characters yet to be made, but nevertheless, I'm confident that we'll see a large Avenger contingent in the long run. You can't ignore certain characters like Ms. Marvel/Warbird, who would translate really well and very successfully into Clix terms. For my money, I'd rather see the "second stringer" Avengers made than trying to force Spidey, the FF, and other guest-stars into an already huge faction like the Avengers.

Here endeth the lesson.

[nasburado]

Definatly beast needs one!
I wanna see justice and firestar and warbird.

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by MarkFinn


See, I wouldn't qualify them as Avengers any more than I would qualify Spider-Man, Hulk, Ghost Rider, and Wolverine as Fantastic Four members. Do you remember that three issue series with the Art Adams artwork? It was great. But it was a crossover sales gimmick. Not an earnest team or roster change.

Since this discussion is ostensibly about who has been overlooked in Clix terms, the only real contenders by my accounting set out above are Moondragon (and I'd prefer her as a Defender) and The Beast (who I'd prefer as an Avenger). There are a lot of characters yet to be made, but nevertheless, I'm confident that we'll see a large Avenger contingent in the long run. You can't ignore certain characters like Ms. Marvel/Warbird, who would translate really well and very successfully into Clix terms. For my money, I'd rather see the "second stringer" Avengers made than trying to force Spidey, the FF, and other guest-stars into an already huge faction like the Avengers.

Here endeth the lesson.

You dont nitpick much, do you.

RESERVE AVENGER. KEY WORD: RESERVE. This does not mean that they are full fledged members. Just because they were only in a few issues doesnt undo the fact that they were considered part of the team, however short a period of time it may have been. In times when they are needed, they are called upon to help out.

Thats like saying that if you are in the Army reserve that you arent really affiliated with the Army since you dont take part in every single little drill.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by The Stinger


You dont nitpick much, do you.

RESERVE AVENGER. KEY WORD: RESERVE. This does not mean that they are full fledged members. Just because they were only in a few issues doesnt undo the fact that they were considered part of the team, however short a period of time it may have been. In times when they are needed, they are called upon to help out.

Thats like saying that if you are in the Army reserve that you arent really affiliated with the Army since you dont take part in every single little drill.

No, I don't think I nitpick very much, at all. With regards to this thread, the question was, is there anyone who should be an Avenger who maybe got overlooked? I weighed in on the whole Spider-Man debate and explained WHY I thought that way. Because what we're talking about is a game, not forty years of Marvel continuity. Do you have any IDEA how many people were at one time or another Avengers? Do you think that half of the figures in the Marvel line should be Avengers? Do you honestly think that the members of the FF should get an Avengers A based on three issues? How, in game terms, should the RESERVE Avengers status work?

Bottom line: with Heroclix, you need to be a little more cut and dried. Spidey got the wildcard. The Beast and Moondragon got the omission.

I wasn't picking a fight with my initial post; I was just explaining how I felt about it. No acrimony. Just a contrary way of thinking. Relax a little, will you?

[Badges2]

Calm down, children. Let's whip out the Webster's Dictionary. Webster, himself, through the cosmic power of complete colligate intellect will resolve this question once and for all.

Avenger - (noun) (1.) - A character who is currently in the "Avengers" comic book. (2.) - A character who was in several consecutive "Avengers" comic books and completed at least one story-arc. This does not apply to the an arc which correlates to meeting the new character and then his/her leaving their ranks.

Reserve Avenger - (noun) (1.) - A character in the Marvel Universe who has met the "Avengers" was asked to join their ranks. If there is ever a full-fledged major battle, this character could possibly be contacted to help them when they are in need. (2.) - A member of the "Avengers" who has quit on friendly terms to pursue other goals in life and can be counted on to be an ally in great need.

[MidnigherApoll]

Actually MarkFinn, the question posed was who was an Avenger in the comics and wasn't in Clix, not who should have the Avengers Team Ability.

[Wyldstaar]

Avengers Members yet to be made-

Wonder Man
Tigra
Moon Knight
Mockingbird
Dr. Pym
Yellowjacket (current)
Giant Man
Swordsman
Mantis
Hellcat
Ms. Marvel
Falcon
Goliath
Jocasta
Firebird
Black Knight
Jack of Hearts
Crystal
Darkhawk
Deathcry
Demolision Man
Doctor Druid
Firestar
Justice
Gilgamesh
Human Torch I (not to be confused with Johnny Storm)
Living Lightning
Machine Man
Photon
Rage
Sersi
Silverclaw
Spider-Woman II
Starfox
Stingray
Sub-Mariner (Namor)
Thunderstrike
Triathalon
Two-Gun Kid
USAgent
War Machine

That complete enough for ya?

[Wyldstaar]

Almost forgot the Great Lakes Avengers!

Mr. Immortal
Big Bertha
Dinah Soar
Flatman
Doorman

[supergoblin]

Originally posted by Wyldstaar
Almost forgot the Great Lakes Avengers!

Mr. Immortal
Big Bertha
Dinah Soar
Flatman
Doorman

Big Bertha, Dinah Soar, Doorman?
These are actaul character?
How lame can you get?

[Jackalope]

Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman were Avengers. Not reserve, not part time but full time Avengers. It was a short period of time they were part of the team but they were full fledged team members. It was issue 300 I believe (It could have been 400 but it was one of the hundred issues, 300 seems closer to correct). If you check out the OHOTMU it also lists them as Avengers. Its not a matter of opinion its factual (as far as comics go).

[Wyldstaar]

Very true, they were Avengers. Thing was a member of the West Coast Avengers. I didn't bother including them since they've already had figures made, and the likelyhood of Avengers versions of them being made are slim to none.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Jackalope
Mr Fantastic and Invisible Woman were Avengers. Not reserve, not part time but full time Avengers. It was a short period of time they were part of the team but they were full fledged team members. It was issue 300 I believe (It could have been 400 but it was one of the hundred issues, 300 seems closer to correct). If you check out the OHOTMU it also lists them as Avengers. Its not a matter of opinion its factual (as far as comics go).

Your operative phrase here is "as far as comics go." Let me ask you this: do you think that, given the fact that Reed and Sue were running with the Avengers for a few issues, that they should be Avengers in Heroclix?

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by MidnigherApoll
Actually MarkFinn, the question posed was who was an Avenger in the comics and wasn't in Clix, not who should have the Avengers Team Ability.

No it wasn't. Here's the first post, reprinted for your consideration:
avengers question
who among all the heroclix ever made have been a member of the avengers, but don't have a version with the avengers team ability (yet)?

e.g., i hear moondragon was in the avengers at one point...

Nuff said.

[Jackalope]

Mark since you have a hard time understanding let me repeat. They were Avengers. They did not "run around with them for a few issues". They JOINED the Avengers. I'm sorry it flopped and they didn't stay for a long time but they were FULL FLEDGED Avengers. Not reserves. Not guest stars. Not a cross-over. Their faces were even in the upper left hand corner of the comic to show the "team members" that marvel use to do with all their issues.

The "factual (as far as comics go)" was simply to say that I understand comic books are not "Real". I have a hard time saying something is "Factual" when everything is fictional (We'll pause here while you go get a dictionary).

You can qualify things how you want. You can see things through your "MarkFinn" glasses. It does not matter. The fact is Reed and Sue were Avengers. Period. End of story. Bye-bye.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Jackalope
Mark since you have a hard time understanding let me repeat. They were Avengers. They did not "run around with them for a few issues". They JOINED the Avengers. I'm sorry it flopped and they didn't stay for a long time but they were FULL FLEDGED Avengers. Not reserves. Not guest stars. Not a cross-over. Their faces were even in the upper left hand corner of the comic to show the "team members" that marvel use to do with all their issues.

The "factual (as far as comics go)" was simply to say that I understand comic books are not "Real". I have a hard time saying something is "Factual" when everything is fictional (We'll pause here while you go get a dictionary).

You can qualify things how you want. You can see things through your "MarkFinn" glasses. It does not matter. The fact is Reed and Sue were Avengers. Period. End of story. Bye-bye.

I understood everything you said. And, with your previous statements being a given, I asked you a question. So, are you gonna answer that question, or are you going to get more and more shrill?

[Jackalope]

ok, "Quote-Boy",

I would like to see a Reed and Sue as Avengers. Will we see them? Probably not. If they decide to make more Reed and Sue's in the future then maybe we will see Uniques or one of the REV versions of them with the Avengers symbol on their base.

I hate responding to you since you don't understand things that you read apparently. You always like to use the quote and then keep asking questions that are already answered or that don't require an answer then you raise your hands like you 'won' something.

Maybe you should read your tag line there buddy.

[ontapmedia]

Okay now.... I read the first page and was getting frustrated by the context of what makes and doesnt make for "real" qualifiers for characters to belong to one team or another.

Spiderman has been an Avenger (it's not debatable) He did get an ID card that was only shown once or twice but mentioned quite a few times. He became a member in early 1990. He did not stay on for long and the Avengers announced thier main membership and a group of reserves including Spiderman and Sandman.

Invisible Girl, Mr. Fantastic and Thing were all Avengers as well.

Moondragon was an Avenger

Firelord was more or less in custody of Firelord but he was never a member after his battle with Spiderman in Amazing Spiderman 269-270 (great showdown)

Justice and Firestar of the New Warriors also gained membership after "Heroes Reborn"

Other Avengers yet to be made include about 10 variations of Hank Pym, Gilgamesh, Dr. Druid (please no!!! to these last two) Tigra, Mockingbird, Black Knight, Jocasta, Deathbird, War Machine, Captain Marvel, Warbird/Ms. Marvel, Falcon, Mantis, Clint Barton as Goliath, Wonderman, Beast(we'll see him Xplosion), USAgent, Spiderwoman, Crystal, Sersi, Triathalon, Machineman, Rage, Stingray, Darkhawk, D-man, Living Lightning, Namor, Starfox, the swordsman, and Rick Jones.
There's another female hispanic character who I cant recall the name of. I want to say her name was Esperanta but I know I'm wrong.

Anyway..... I do agree just because someone was an Avenger such as the FF members or Spidey that we do not need a whole new figure for that character. Although there should be exceptions such as The Beast. Yes we need more Defenders but Beast was a great Avenger and some people would really want him that way. - Terrence

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Jackalope
ok, "Quote-Boy",

I would like to see a Reed and Sue as Avengers. Will we see them? Probably not. If they decide to make more Reed and Sue's in the future then maybe we will see Uniques or one of the REV versions of them with the Avengers symbol on their base.

Yeah, that's what I thought you'd say.

I hate responding to you since you don't understand things that you read apparently. You always like to use the quote and then keep asking questions that are already answered or that don't require an answer then you raise your hands like you 'won' something.

Really? You think so? Huh. Is that why I had to ask you again if you thought that Reed and Sue should be Avengers clix? Because, you know, 35 years of comics history and three sets of Heroclix are totally different things. I just wondered if you thought that three issues out of 35 years of comics would justify a Clix figure. Now I know. Thanks for answering so succinctly.

Maybe you should read your tag line there buddy.

Maybe you should read my tag line there, chuckles, and substitute the word 'game' for 'comic.'

[Jackalope]

You don't even make sense man. Do you just like to argue because you live in your parent's basement and are a pathetic little man? I really liked how you told me to read your tag line after I told you to read it. WOW that was powerful stuff. Get a life and stop pestering people. I refer to you as "quote-boy" since you have a habit of quoting every word someone says so then you call me chuckles? Again, powerful I guess in your world.

How many issues did Spider-Man have 6 arms in? Was it a long story line? No. And yet they made a 6-armed Spider-Man heroclix figure.

How many issues was Scarlet Witch a villian for? Yet they have a version of her as a Brotherhood to reflect it.

How many issues was Wolverine in before he joined the X-Men? 1 page of 180, then he was in 181 then 1-2 pages of 182 and that was it. 1 comic and 3 pages? Yet his rookie is not X-Men.

How many issues was Elektra:Assassin? 8 issue limited series, very short but yet....we see an Eletra: Assassin figure.

The amount of time they were in the comics is not what the debate or question is here Finn-Head. Its "were they avengers?", "Will we see heroclix of them?" The answers are "Yes" and "Maybe". Until they release info every figure is a maybe. Some have a higher percentage than others but who would have thought or bet money that "nightmare" would make it to 'clix before Iron Man or Storm if you had to guess before seeing a list? Who would have guessed we'd have a 6-armed Spider-Man before Venom is even projected to be made?

Get off your high horse and admit you were wrong buddy and get a life.

[The Stinger]

Jackalope raises some Valid points here. Especially with the 6 arm Spiderman taking a UNIQUE slot in CT. Not a long story at all, and certainly not a mainstay of "The Past 35 years of comics"

And again with Elektra's newest installment, from only an 8 issue series.

Bottom line,

What EXACTLY would be wrong with clix of a few more people coming out with Versions that are part of the Avengers and can use a free move??

Variety IS cool you know. I think an Avenger team that Included Reed and Sue Richards would be pretty cool, and the team ability would be worlds more useful than that of the F4 team ability where one of your team has to die before it even works.

The avengers are probably the biggest, most famous team there has ever been over "The Past 35 Years of Comics" And so I think it wouldnt be out of the question at all to add more clix with avengers versions.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Jackalope
You don't even make sense man. Do you just like to argue because you live in your parent's basement and are a pathetic little man? I really liked how you told me to read your tag line after I told you to read it. WOW that was powerful stuff. Get a life and stop pestering people. I refer to you as "quote-boy" since you have a habit of quoting every word someone says so then you call me chuckles? Again, powerful I guess in your world.

I really don't understand where this hostility comes from, Jack. You jumped in on this talking about how it wasn't open to debate. I thought maybe a question or two would prove that it was open to debate, especially since you weren't taking sales gimmicks into account. So, if I stepped on toes by suggesting otherwise, I apologize.

I've been involved with comics for almost twenty years, and I'm very familiar with Marvel and DC comics...including their various sales gimmicks. Now, when I hear things like "Mr. Fantastic and The Invisible Woman have joined the Avengers" I tend to place it in the same category as "they killed Superman" or "they broke Batman's Back and he'll never walk again." It was a sales trick. A temporary situation. THAT'S what I'm talking about. There are exceptions with regard to Clix, see below.

How many issues did Spider-Man have 6 arms in? Was it a long story line? No. And yet they made a 6-armed Spider-Man heroclix figure. It was a multi-issue story. However, we're talking Spider-Man, which is a character that JonL said would be included in every set, in different configurations, because of character popularity. The Fantastic Four, while being Marvel's flagship comic, has never been as popular as Spider-Man. So, if they are going to do different Spideys for every set, they have to dig around to find unusual time-periods for Spidey. My guess is the Scarlet Spidey will be next. That book ran for almost two years. Title change, name change, the whole works. It wasn't very good, but if they are needing more Spider-Man figs, they are going to have to dig for them.

How many issues was Scarlet Witch a villian for? Yet they have a version of her as a Brotherhood to reflect it. 2-3 years. And their involvement in the Brotherhood was noteable, since that's the team they debuted in. It was a big deal for them to join the Avengers. But it was a big story that never got undone. They didn't join for a few issues and then go back. In other words, it was a permanent change.

How many issues was Wolverine in before he joined the X-Men? 1 page of 180, then he was in 181 then 1-2 pages of 182 and that was it. 1 comic and 3 pages? Yet his rookie is not X-Men. Sure, Wolverine appeared in two issues. But he has been forever associated with the X-Men. To the general public, he's never been anything BUT an X-Man. We'll see more of Wolvie, too, because they want him in every set.

How many issues was Elektra:Assassin? 8 issue limited series, very short but yet....we see an Eletra: Assassin figure. Yeah, but again, according to JonL, we're going to see Elektras in every set. So, again, there will be different time periods for her character. I expect the next Elektra will be her "reborn" fig.

The amount of time they were in the comics is not what the debate or question is here Finn-Head. Its "were they avengers?", "Will we see heroclix of them?" The answers are "Yes" and "Maybe". Until they release info every figure is a maybe. Some have a higher percentage than others but who would have thought or bet money that "nightmare" would make it to 'clix before Iron Man or Storm if you had to guess before seeing a list? Who would have guessed we'd have a 6-armed Spider-Man before Venom is even projected to be made?

And my answers are, "I wouldn't consider them Avengers" and "it's very doubtful, for the reasons I stated above." These are just opinions. Mine opinions. I don't know why you're taking this so personally, Jack. I don't know why you started this shrill yelling. Maybe I somehow got cross with you on another thread and it's carrying over.

Get off your high horse and admit you were wrong buddy and get a life.

Not a high horse. Just a different way of looking at it than you. Not wrong, either. Just not the answer you wanted. And given the level of anger you're throwing my way, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop calling me 'buddy', Jack.

[Jackalope]

Again, its not open for debate buddy. They joined. Sorry it wasn't a long story line but thats not part of the requirements. Hulk was only an Avenger for 2 issues. Yet his rookie is Avenger. Why would you disqualify Reed and Sue when they were Avengers longer than Hulk?

Scarlet Witch's 1st appearance was X-Men #4 which came out in March of 1964 and Avengers 16 (where she joined) came out May of 1965. So less than a year and a half, NOT "2-3 years". Not a long time when talking about "35 years of comic history". And she was by no means in every issue between those dates. Again, citing the OHOTMU (Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe) it states:

"Unaware that he was their natural father, Magneto pressed them into service in his Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, costurned them, and named them the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver. For months they served Magneto out of a sense of obligation and fear of his reprisal."

I believe "costurned" was suppose to be "costumed" but thats how it was written. So again, it wasn’t that long of a time but everyone (including me) would be disappointed if we hadn’t seen a Brotherhood version of Scarlet and Quicksilver. Just like some of us would like to see Mr Fantastic, Invisible Woman and Thing heroclix showing the Avengers symbol.

And you say:

"Sure, Wolverine appeared in two issues. But he has been forever associated with the X-Men. To the general public, he's never been anything BUT an X-Man. We'll see more of Wolvie, too, because they want him in every set."

This backs up my case doesn't it? His rookie is not affiliated with the X-Men (or any other team) and yet it was only 2 issues that he wasn't an X-Men, yet they choose to show him at one point as not an X-Men.

My hostility comes from you just arguing just to argue. I don't know if you like to read your own posts or what. It is factual that Reed and Sue were members of the Avengers! Why do you keep questioning it except to make a pointless argument?

I just got out my Avengers #300. In the back they have "Avengers Membership" listed and shows every member up to that point. For Reed and Sue it lists that they are active from Issue 299.

Again, on the cover it says: "Presenting the NEW TEAM!" and lists "Mister Fantastic -- The Mighty Thor --- Invisible Woman --- Steve Rogers, The Captain --- and reintroducing ... Gilgamesh The Forgotten One!" that was the line up for the Avengers. It was when Steve Rogers was wearing the costume that would end up on US Agent. Was it a ####py line up? Yup. No argument there. Was Gilgamesh an Avenger? Yup. Was Thor an Avenger? Yup. Was The Captain an Avenger? Yup. Was Mister Fantastic an Avenger? Yup. Was Invisible Woman an Avenger? Yup.

Page 44, last 2 panel:

The Captain: You've got the team experience ... And the leadership qualities. Will you join us?
Mr Fantastic: We had thought to retire from the world for a while to watch our son.
The CaptainNo it hasn't worked has it, Reed?
unknown, off panel: The world's too small a place to hid in anymore.
Reed: I think you can speak for both of us, Sue.

Page 45, splash page:

Sue: For the sake of our child , and the world's safety, our answer is yes. But if anybody starts shouting "Avengers Assemble" and wakes up my baby he is going to be in big trouble!"

then others speak and confirm they are Avengers. They are over Franklin's bed while he is sleeping.

I'm not going to debate this anymore with you Finn-Head its pointless. You argue away that they weren't Avengers and live in your own little world and be happy in it buddy. Its not a different way of looking at it. It is the only way to look at it and yes you are wrong. I have the issues, I know my comic facts.

[admironheart]

hey guys,

both of you have your points and it is all symantics and generalized opinions. Are many of your points valid? Hell yes....whether they are cynical or factual...they all ring true to some level of some argument based on whatever parameters you decide to make the platform of the discussion.

The thing is neither of you are arguing in the 'same' agenda.

what a waste...

but hey
I have :
WonderMan
Tigra/Greer Nelson
Hellcat/ Patsy Walker
WarBird/Ms Marvel
FireBird/Espirita
Moon Knight
Falcon

enjoy your arguments....it did bring back memories to an old collector ;)

So I have almost half of the unmade heroclix all on legal clix dials
check out this link...

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/tracymace1229/lst?.dir=/Heroclix&.view=t

WarBird will be posted on Monday!
wes

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by Jackalope
Again, its not open for debate buddy. They joined. Sorry it wasn't a long story line but thats not part of the requirements. Hulk was only an Avenger for 2 issues. Yet his rookie is Avenger. Why would you disqualify Reed and Sue when they were Avengers longer than Hulk?

I'm not going to debate this anymore with you Finn-Head its pointless. You argue away that they weren't Avengers and live in your own little world and be happy in it buddy. Its not a different way of looking at it. It is the only way to look at it and yes you are wrong. I have the issues, I know my comic facts.

Wow, Jack, you did a great job looking all of that stuff up in your collection. I just pulled my information off the top of my head. Not too shabby for not having the books at hand. And now I see where the crossed lines of communication are coming from. Let me start over.
Ahem.
Okay, you're right. Reed and Sue were Avengers, according to Marvel's continuity (and really, who hasn't been an Avenger? For that matter, for a group with the number 4 in their name, the FF have had more members than Spinal Tap has had drummers). But they didn't stay Avengers. They aren't known as Avengers. Most people with only a passing comics knowledge wouldn't consider them Avengers. If you asked people who called themselves comics fans the following question, "To what team does Mister Fantastic, the Invisible Girl, and the Thing belong?" They will all ring in with the answer, The Fantastic Four. Not the Avengers.

I'm sorry if you thought that I was saying that according to Marvel Comics, it never happened. That wasn't the intention of my post. The intention of my post was to say, "yeah, so?" Meaning, they broke Batman's Back, and they killed Superman, Robin, and Phoenix. None of it stuck. Several members of the FF were Avengers, but it never stuck. Yeah, it happened in the comics, for a second or two.

It's my personal opinion that given the oddness of Marvel's flagship heroes spending a few months of continuity in the Avengers, Heroclix shouldn't make Reed and Sue with an A on the dial. Obviously, you don't see it that way. Cool beans. This is an open forum, and I came to this thread with no agenda, and not wishing to argue, just present my viewpoint. In the grand scheme of things, it's pointless speculation, anyway. I would never have guessed that CT would have a 6-armed Spidey in it. You could have knocked me over with a feather (not in a good way) when I saw it. Until it happens, or doesn't happen, neither one of us will be vindicated.

So, are we friends again? Can I have my roller skates back?

[sluggo]

"they killed Superman, Robin, and Phoenix" - ABout Robin I assume your taking about Jason Todd, and yes it did "stick".

[LurkMaster2000]

jeez, sorry i missed the rest of what the thread said. i pretty much got what i needed from all who answered. thanks to all who participated. :p

whoever said that the question should be, "who wasn't in the avengers" sounds right now that i've seen all the answers.

[Jackalope]

/em gives MarkFinn his roller skates back.

[ontapmedia]

I was never a Clix figure or an Avenger. But I do have an Avenger ID card that came with a Wizard Special once. I have no superpowers but I do have an uncanny knowledge of unimportant things. I can handle myself in a fight against zombies, drunks, old people and even children as long as they come in managable numbers of less then 10 at a time. I will not fight maidgets or dwarves due to a personal oath I took some time ago.
I will also only fight on the side of good if I am feeling regular which requires that I get a shot of Metamucil twice a day otherwise I become irritable and cranky.

You wouldn't like me when I'm cranky....

Or irregular for that matter. It makes me gassy and then you might say I have a rather pronounced super power in my pants and I'm not talking about my swizzel stick either.

I think this thread got really nasty and was very unpleasent to read so I thought I might write a lil' about my shame of not being an Avenger but being a rather ordinary man with an extrodinaryly strange code of ethics involving little people and my own foul essence that perpetulates from within.
I hope this didnt utterly bore you but instead reminded you that it is far more fun to use your imagination rather then beat each other over the head with your inflated sense of self importance and self righteousness.

With that said I do wish you all a pleasent day and hope we may chat again some day. - T.

RIP Jason Todd ....still dead after all these years. Never has one been beaten with a crow bar more savagely and entertained me so deeply at the same time. You'll be missed boy wonder.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by ontapmedia


RIP Jason Todd ....still dead after all these years. Never has one been beaten with a crow bar more savagely and entertained me so deeply at the same time. You'll be missed boy wonder.

Yeah, Jason Todd is still dead, but Robin continues as a character without missing a beat. In fact, one could argue that the Death of Robin storyline was the first real gimmick cheat on the fans. For months after the distasteful (and really unsatisfying) story ran, the editorial staff made a lot of noise at the conventions about Batman going solo forever. Too bad they hadn't counted on the various corporations that had licensed Robin toys and other nonsensical stuff. It's become a specialty of DC comics, now: kill the secret identity, but the super hero endures.

[ontapmedia]

Finn,
You seem abnormally angry. I mean the whole point of Lonely Place of Dying the story that brought us Tim Drake the current Robin was to say that Robin was more then any one character he was a symbol. He was an important part of the Dark Knight. Batman was solo for quite some time before Tim showed up and even after Tim was there it was a couple of years before he got the Suit. He had to do duty in the Cave for Bruce to proove his dedication.
Jason Todd was a bad character pre Crisis and Post and readers wanted him dead. DC did use a gimmick with the phone in but it was a great gimmick in a sense because it gave many readers the chance to decide the direction of an Icon's story.

It also created great drama between Nightwing and Batman that has only been firmly dealth with in terms of consequence in recent years. Namely The official adoption of #### Grayson who was always a ward versus Jason's official adopted status. It may not mean much to clix players but it was great story. - T/

[sluggo]

"Death of Robin storyline was the first real gimmick cheat on the fans" - When it was the fans that voted to kill of that Robin? Fans hated that character (Jason Todd) and love the new on (Tim Drake). And you are wrong, Jason Todd has never come back to life, he stayed dead. The fact that he was the second Robin showed before he died that the Robin character was tied to only ONE person.

"Wow, Jack, you did a great job looking all of that stuff up in your collection. I just pulled my information off the top of my head" - Maybe you should look thinks up, you'll be wrong less often.

[MarkFinn]

Originally posted by ontapmedia
Finn,
You seem abnormally angry. I mean the whole point of Lonely Place of Dying the story that brought us Tim Drake the current Robin was to say that Robin was more then any one character he was a symbol. He was an important part of the Dark Knight. Batman was solo for quite some time before Tim showed up and even after Tim was there it was a couple of years before he got the Suit. He had to do duty in the Cave for Bruce to proove his dedication.
Jason Todd was a bad character pre Crisis and Post and readers wanted him dead. DC did use a gimmick with the phone in but it was a great gimmick in a sense because it gave many readers the chance to decide the direction of an Icon's story.

It also created great drama between Nightwing and Batman that has only been firmly dealth with in terms of consequence in recent years. Namely The official adoption of #### Grayson who was always a ward versus Jason's official adopted status. It may not mean much to clix players but it was great story. - T/

Oh no, I'm not angry. I love the current Robin. He's great---far better than the Jason Todd character. The new outfit works, too. Overall, it's a tremendous improvement over what was then the status quo. But that Starlin story was terrible. Joker bludgeons Robin to near death with a crowbar and then blows him and his mother up? Nice. And completely gets away with it, too. The ending is the cheesiest, most irritating cop-out I'd seen at that time. Joker gets Diplomatic Immunity, Superman steps in to try and stop Batman from killing Joker, and then in the end, the boat blows up leaving no trace of the Clown Prince. Neat. Tidy. Horrible. It was a raspberry to Batman's character motivation, Superman and Batman's relationship, and reader credibility.

Look, I'm not saying what we got as a result was bad. It fixed nearly everything. But at the time, it seemed like a cheeseball way to tangentially connect with Miller's Dark Knight Returns (remember that line about Jason in the story?) My point is, if they wanted to replace Jason Todd, there were a hundred different ways to do it without some gladiatorial 1-900 number. All they had to do was do it. Have him run away. Go bad. Take off in search of his mother and disappear. By having the Joker kill Jason, it really limited what Batman could do. He couldn't kill the Joker (see the reasons above about marketing), and so the Joker had to get away. Not satisfying, at all. Anyway, it's water under the bridge, now. The new Robin is heaps better. I think that story is an ugly bump over what is otherwise a smooth stretch of cool Batman stories for that time period.