pulse wave/extended range/darkness within

[sebsee]

I have question about this combination. There's a clarification under Extended Range involving Pulse Wave that states:

When this feat is used with Pulse Wave (and multiple targets) first, halve the character’s range (as per the power). Next, increase
range based on the unmodified damage value (as per the feat). The damage value is then replaced to 1 (as per the power). Finally,
the damage value is then decreased by 1 (as per the feat), making the normal damage dealt 0. Other factors can come into play (e.g.,
critical hits, Darkness Within) to increase this.

Darkness Within states:

DARKNESS WITHIN (15 points)
Choose a character.
(Optional) Once per turn before this character makes an attack, deal 1 pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities to a
single target friendly character adjacent to the character; this is not an attack: The character gets +1 to its damage value for that attack.
• The pushing damage is dealt to the adjacent friendly

I understand that a critical hit would increase the damage but what is it about Darkness Within that would allow the damage value to be increased? And if so, what would prevent DW from increasing damage value of a normal pulse wave? How would adding Nova Blast to the mix affect things? I'm sure I'm missing something here. Any help would be appreciated.

[Maraud]

I have question about this combination. There's a clarification under Extended Range involving Pulse Wave that states:

When this feat is used with Pulse Wave (and multiple targets) first, halve the character’s range (as per the power). Next, increase
range based on the unmodified damage value (as per the feat). The damage value is then replaced to 1 (as per the power). Finally,
the damage value is then decreased by 1 (as per the feat), making the normal damage dealt 0. Other factors can come into play (e.g.,
critical hits, Darkness Within) to increase this.

Darkness Within states:

DARKNESS WITHIN (15 points)
Choose a character.
(Optional) Once per turn before this character makes an attack, deal 1 pushing damage that ignores Willpower and team abilities to a
single target friendly character adjacent to the character; this is not an attack: The character gets +1 to its damage value for that attack.
• The pushing damage is dealt to the adjacent friendly

I understand that a critical hit would increase the damage but what is it about Darkness Within that would allow the damage value to be increased? And if so, what would prevent DW from increasing damage value of a normal pulse wave? How would adding Nova Blast to the mix affect things? I'm sure I'm missing something here. Any help would be appreciated.

well PW when there are multiple characters in range makes your damage value 1 for the action(meaning it locked and can not be modified) so DW would have no effect.
With Nova Blast it use the unmodified damage value to once again DW has no effect.

[Captain Krueger]

This part of the PG is a relic of older times. In fact, Darkness Within is now useless on Pulse Wave, since the last PG clearly say that damage value becomes 1 and is locked if there is more than 1 character in range (and obviously in that case there is). Crit hit will work just fine (it increase damage dealt, not damage value).
The only time where the modified damage value will be used by a character using Pulse Wave is when he has only one character in range.
BTW, the combination of Extended Range + Pulse Wave won't work as noted anymore either : If there is only 1 target, then yes the damage value will be modified by Extended Range, but if there is more than one, since the damage value is locked to 1, it won't drop to 0 because of Extended Range. And yet range value will be modified by the feat just fine. Cool combo (especially with Nova Blast added to the mix)

[Harpua]

BTW, the combination of Extended Range + Pulse Wave won't work as noted anymore either : If there is only 1 target, then yes the damage value will be modified by Extended Range, but if there is more than one, since the damage value is locked to 1, it won't drop to 0 because of Extended Range. And yet range value will be modified by the feat just fine. Cool combo (especially with Nova Blast added to the mix)

Two things that I would like to point out here:
1) This was mentioned in the PG thread, so it should be addressed in the next PG.
2) If the entry is not change, it would still work the same as it says in the PG, regardless of the locking. Why? Because that would be how the PG says it works...'nuff said. All other evidence may point to it working otherwise, but the PG is the final authority. If it says that something works some way, then it works that way. We had the same thing with Pounce and objects for years.

[Questions]

When is the damage from Darkness Within applied during a Pulse Wave attack? Specifically, if the Pulse Waver is adjacent to a friendly character on its last click and there is only one other character (opposing) within range of the Pulse Wave, is the damage from Darkness Within applied before or after the Pulse Wave character’s damage value would become 1 and locked?

From the Player's Guide:
DARKNESS WITHIN
The pushing damage is dealt to the adjacent friendly character after the action is declared but before the attack is made. The characters must be adjacent at the time of the attack.

With a Pulse Wave attack, a lot happens between the time that the action is declared and the attack is made. So can the damage from Darkness Within be applied right after the action is given so there is only one character within range of the Pulse Wave?

[normalview]

When is the damage from Darkness Within applied during a Pulse Wave attack? Specifically, if the Pulse Waver is adjacent to a friendly character on its last click and there is only one other character (opposing) within range of the Pulse Wave, is the damage from Darkness Within applied before or after the Pulse Wave character’s damage value would become 1 and locked?

From the Player's Guide:


With a Pulse Wave attack, a lot happens between the time that the action is declared and the attack is made. So can the damage from Darkness Within be applied right after the action is given so there is only one character within range of the Pulse Wave?

Pulse Wave
Give this character a ranged combat action; halve its range value until the action has been resolved. Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack. At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power. If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored. If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1 and is locked. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters.




So we see that LOF is drawn waaaaay back at the beginning of the whole deal, when the action is first declared. And then, if LOF is drawn to at least two characters, the damage is locked until the action resolves. Doesn't matter if suddenly, mid-action, there were no longer two or more characters; the damage value is already locked.

[Questions]

Pulse Wave
Give this character a ranged combat action; halve its range value until the action has been resolved.DARKNESS WITHIN Draw lines of fire to every character within range in every direction; these lines of fire are only blocked by walls, blocking and elevated terrain. All powers, abilities, traits and feats used by characters with a line of fire drawn to them are ignored until the action has been resolved, though wild cards using this power can use the team ability of a friendly character within range of this attack. At least one opposing character must have a line of fire drawn to it to activate this power. If ignoring a game effect would cause a character with a line of fire drawn to it to no longer have a line of fire drawn to it, then it is not ignored. If lines of fire can be drawn to two or more characters, this character’s damage value becomes 1 and is locked. Make a single attack roll and compare the result to the defense value of each character with a line of fire drawn to it (hindering terrain still increases character’s defense values by +1); each character hit is dealt damage. Attacks made with this power do not target characters.




So we see that LOF is drawn waaaaay back at the beginning of the whole deal, when the action is first declared. And then, if LOF is drawn to at least two characters, the damage is locked until the action resolves. Doesn't matter if suddenly, mid-action, there were no longer two or more characters; the damage value is already locked.

Any reason that Darkness Within couldn't be activated where included above?

[Harpua]

Any reason that Darkness Within couldn't be activated where included above?

It says "...before this character makes an attack..."

The attack isn't happening at that point yet.

The attack doesn't happen until all of the ignoring and other up front stuff.



(And no, it doesn't specify "immediately" before the attack but it is. Otherwise, I could just do it whenever and say that I plan to make an attack at some point in the future, so it's before that one whenever it should happen to occur.)

[Questions]

It says "...before this character makes an attack..."

The attack isn't happening at that point yet.

The attack doesn't happen until all of the ignoring and other up front stuff.



(And no, it doesn't specify "immediately" before the attack but it is. Otherwise, I could just do it whenever and say that I plan to make an attack at some point in the future, so it's before that one whenever it should happen to occur.)

I'm not sure that's fair. If it said immediately then I would completely agree. But it clearly says after the action is declared but before the attack is made. That leaves a lot of room when dealing with Pulse Wave. (Not so much with a regular ranged combat attack.) And it doesn't allow your example. It must happen after the action is declared so it can't be done whenever and say that you plan to make the attack at some point in the future. Since it has to happen after the action is declared, you must complete the action which means you must make the attack.

[normalview]

I'm not sure that's fair. If it said immediately then I would completely agree. But it clearly says after the action is declared but before the attack is made. That leaves a lot of room when dealing with Pulse Wave. (Not so much with a regular ranged combat attack.) And it doesn't allow your example. It must happen after the action is declared so it can't be done whenever and say that you plan to make the attack at some point in the future. Since it has to happen after the action is declared, you must complete the action which means you must make the attack.

Still doesn't change the fact that when the action was declared, you had to draw LOF.

And if you drew LOF to two or more characters, the damage value is locked.

[Questions]

Still doesn't change the fact that when the action was declared, you had to draw LOF.

And if you drew LOF to two or more characters, the damage value is locked.

But you don't draw LOF immediately. Darkness Within must be activated after the action is declared, before the attack is made. I ask again, using the rules as written, is there a reason that Darkness Within couldn't be activated right after the action is given before LOF is drawn? If it said Darkness Within is activated immediately before the attack is made, I would agree it could not. But it plainly does not say that. (It could. Immediately is used in other effects. It is a known concept in Heroclix. However this clarification does not use the word.) So why can't Darkness Within be activated after the action is declared, before LOF is drawn?

[normalview]

But you don't draw LOF immediately. Darkness Within must be activated after the action is declared, before the attack is made. I ask again, using the rules as written, is there a reason that Darkness Within couldn't be activated right after the action is given before LOF is drawn? If it said Darkness Within is activated immediately before the attack is made, I would agree it could not. But it plainly does not say that. (It could. Immediately is used in other effects. It is a known concept in Heroclix. However this clarification does not use the word.) So why can't Darkness Within be activated after the action is declared, before LOF is drawn?

Because part of using PW is drawing the LOF. If you can't draw LOF to at least one opposing character, you can't use this power.

So you must draw LOF first.

[Questions]

Because part of using PW is drawing the LOF. If you can't draw LOF to at least one opposing character, you can't use this power.

So you must draw LOF first.

That check isn't made until much later in the power.

[normalview]

That check isn't made until much later in the power.

But it is part of the power.


If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, go right ahead. But both Harpua and I have given you an answer, so at this point I don't really see what your goal is.

[Questions]

But it is part of the power.


If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, go right ahead. But both Harpua and I have given you an answer, so at this point I don't really see what your goal is.

I actually believe you are both wrong. I think you are applying how you want it to work, rather than how it is actually worded. Personally, I don't care how this works, but I do care that rules are applied properly. I don't think that is being done here.

First, in response to your response, making the attack is part of the power. In fact, everything in the text of Pulse Wave is part of the power. If "it is part of the power" was the problem, then Darkness Within would actually activate after the attack was made since the attack is part of the power. We know that is not the case. When you use Darkness Within, the use of Darkness Within must go somewhere in the power description. It must go after the action is declared, but before the attack is made (per the Player's Guide). So far you have given no reason why it cannot go right after the action is declared before LOF is drawn. Activating it then is completely consistent with the Player's Guide and the feat itself.

As for Harpua's agument, if it should work the way Harpua suggested, then the word immediately could easily be added to the clarification in the Player's Guide.

Example:
The pushing damage is dealt to the adjacent friendly character after the action is declared but immediately before the attack is made. The characters must be adjacent at the time of the attack.

This wouldn't even make the Player's Guide longer since the text already takes up 2 lines and one word (3 lines total). This would make it 2 lines and two words (still 3 lines total). It could even be made shorter.

Example:
The pushing damage is dealt to the adjacent friendly character after the action is declared but immediately before the attack is made. The characters must be adjacent at the time of the attack.

That would cut it down to two lines.

Of course, you'll tell me no change to the Player's Guide is necessary. But I think if the effect is to work as you have described, a change to the Player's Guide is necessary.

[Harpua]

...so at this point I don't really see what your goal is.

Heroclix anarchy, same as always. :tired:



:grin:

[Questions]

...so at this point I don't really see what your goal is.

Heroclix anarchy, same as always. :tired:



:grin:

Update to the Player's Guide so the rules match the way you want it to work. Nah. That can't happen. (I'm pretty sure if that happened anarchy would reign.)

[vlad3theimpaler]

Heroclix anarchy, same as always. :tired:



:grin:

Personally, I prefer Heroclix Anarky, but maybe that's just me.
And as to the matter at hand, I see it as being like Lunge, the word immediately isn't necessary for the wording of the card, but it would add clarity.
Out of curiosity, are there any effects in the game that start with "before an attack" or something along those lines that DON'T have to take place immediately before the attack?

[Questions]

And as to the matter at hand, I see it as being like Lunge, the word immediately isn't necessary for the wording of the card, but it would add clarity.

Lunge, of course, does say immediately and in fact, that was considered a necessary addition to the card. It only says immediately because of an errata.

[vlad3theimpaler]

Lunge, of course, does say immediately and in fact, that was considered a necessary addition to the card. It only says immediately because of an errata.

My point was that the word "immediately" was added as a clarification, even thought I don't think it was strictly needed. But then again, your particular interpretation of how lunge would work without the word "immediately" included may differ from mine.

[Questions]

My point was that the word "immediately" was added as a clarification, even thought I don't think it was strictly needed. But then again, your particular interpretation of how lunge would work without the word "immediately" included may differ from mine.

Without it, I could see it working interestingly with Charge. I wonder if that was part of the conversation ever. I really don't know what caused the errata. I do think it's a good one, though.

[sebsee]

My original question still remains as the entry I noted in the initial post still is in the updated players guide. The discussion got a bit derailed, but it was never really explained to me how darkness within would increase the damage (or at least at one time it did).

Can I get clarification on this? thanks as always

[normalview]

My original question still remains as the entry I noted in the initial post still is in the updated players guide. The discussion got a bit derailed, but it was never really explained to me how darkness within would increase the damage (or at least at one time it did).

Can I get clarification on this? thanks as always

The only time Darkness Within can have any real effect on PW is when there is only a single character in range.

If there are two or more characters, PW locks its damage value at 1 (and Darkness Within can't change that).


And please note that PW can't be used if the only character in range is a friendly character... and since Darkness Within requires a friendly adjacent character for the effect to work, there will always be at least two characters in PW range if you try to use Darkness Within. Basically, with the locking of the damage value, the only thing PW combo'd with Darkness Within is really good for these days is dealing extra damage to your friendly adjacent character (which might be useful if you are trying to get to a specific mid-dial click).

Otherwise, this is just a relic from old rulings.

[sebsee]

ok, got it, thanks much for the reply