Wizkids Employees, Heres a Problem that should have never ceased to be

[Remy Lebeau]

In another topic on this message board I am reading more and more about underpowered characters in the game. I am reading about characters whose powers aren't being represented properly and I'm reading about a few other not so good things.

For example, like previously stated, Thanos is underpowered, Magneto is underpowered.. And I also believe Xavier is underpowered.

Like said earlier, If Thor gives off more clicks of damage than thanos we have a problem.

Lets not forget Thanos is the guy who devoured a few galaxies to make his girlfriend happy.

So, now, enough ranting, how could this have been solved?

Before Heroclix was ever produced you all, Wizkids reps, should have sat around and said..

" Lets say this game gets big, really big, what are all the feesable characters that we can possibly make? Big characters, small characters, everyone.."

THEN

They should have made a maximum and a minimum for clicks of damage, attack values, Shields, ect.. ect... And then had the most extreme of characters define it

For example

" We'll set a maximum of a 20 attack value...

Jubilee will have a 5, Wolverine will have a 10, Thor will have a 15 and Galactus will have a 20"

Ok... So when they decided to make a Cyclops figure they could say..

" Well Cyclops is as powerful as Jubilee, But probably not as powerful as Wolverine, lets give him an 8. "

And when Thanos was made they could say

" Hmm... Well, Thanos is as powerful as Thor and then some, but, ya know what, I think Galactus could still ring his ###... Thor is a 15, Galactus is a 20, Lets make thanos an 18."

(Now dont kill me because my numbers are off, I know there off, this is just for the sake of argument and idea. Im not saying these numbers are right, but bear with me.)

Now.

They should have gone through the ENTIRE Marvel Universe like this even before they made one clix piece, they should have mapped out all the values in the event the figures got made, which they mostly all did or are.

Why?

So things like this dont happen-

" Wow. We made are first set, Wolverine has an 12 attack value and Magneto has a 15.. We Made a big figure of Galactus for the game and gave him a 20 attack value. Great. Now its time for our second set, lets add Thor and Thanos. Well, Thor is stronger than Magneto, so we can give him a 17, And Thanos is Weaker than Galactus, so we can give him a 17 too. But wait. We just made Thor and Thanos the same attack value, while Thanos could clearly destroy Thor."

Why did this problem occur?

" Because we didn't plan ahead."

[sol]

Originally posted by Remy Lebeau
In another topic on this message board I am reading more and more about underpowered characters in the game. I am reading about characters whose powers aren't being represented properly and I'm reading about a few other not so good things.

For example, like previously stated, Thanos is underpowered, Magneto is underpowered.. And I also believe Xavier is underpowered.

Like said earlier, If Thor gives off more clicks of damage than thanos we have a problem.

Lets not forget Thanos is the guy who devoured a few galaxies to make his girlfriend happy.

So, now, enough ranting, how could this have been solved?

Before Heroclix was ever produced you all, Wizkids reps, should have sat around and said..

" Lets say this game gets big, really big, what are all the feesable characters that we can possibly make? Big characters, small characters, everyone.."

THEN

They should have made a maximum and a minimum for clicks of damage, attack values, Shields, ect.. ect... And then had the most extreme of characters define it

For example

" We'll set a maximum of a 20 attack value...

Jubilee will have a 5, Wolverine will have a 10, Thor will have a 15 and Galactus will have a 20"

Ok... So when they decided to make a Cyclops figure they could say..

" Well Cyclops is as powerful as Jubilee, But probably not as powerful as Wolverine, lets give him an 8. "

And when Thanos was made they could say

" Hmm... Well, Thanos is as powerful as Thor and then some, but, ya know what, I think Galactus could still ring his ###... Thor is a 15, Galactus is a 20, Lets make thanos an 18."

(Now dont kill me because my numbers are off, I know there off, this is just for the sake of argument and idea. Im not saying these numbers are right, but bear with me.)

Now.

They should have gone through the ENTIRE Marvel Universe like this even before they made one clix piece, they should have mapped out all the values in the event the figures got made, which they mostly all did or are.

Why?

So things like this dont happen-

" Wow. We made are first set, Wolverine has an 12 attack value and Magneto has a 15.. We Made a big figure of Galactus for the game and gave him a 20 attack value. Great. Now its time for our second set, lets add Thor and Thanos. Well, Thor is stronger than Magneto, so we can give him a 17, And Thanos is Weaker than Galactus, so we can give him a 17 too. But wait. We just made Thor and Thanos the same attack value, while Thanos could clearly destroy Thor."

Why did this problem occur?

" Because we didn't plan ahead."

Where are you basing these 'facts' from? The characters you named as underpowered are for the most part, well...not. Magneto maybe, but the others are fine. Why should Thor do as much as Thanos? Because he should. Now, granted...Thanos should concievably do more than one click of 4 damage, but this version isn't bad ( to me). He has a LUDICROUSLY high attack value, the highest in HeroClix: 15. Also, Thanos doesn't 'devour' galaxies. LOL.

Also, since when does 'power' translate to attackvalue?

[RabidFanboy1]

Right-o, sol.

Don't get me wrong, this idea is a cool idea if the AV was supposed to represent powers but what it represents is how well of a chance it has to hit a certain character. For example, if there was a superhero/villain who could kill any living thing by just whacking it in the head (including Thanos, Thor, Galactus, etc.) but the character was just too slow to get the attack through, he'd probably have like an attack of 5 or 6 but a damage value of like 12. Sure he'd be seen as a very powerful character, but certainly not what would be considered 20.

Did that make sense at all?

[Joe Kerr]

Everyone wants a high attack value to make up for a lack of stratedgy. No offense Remy. I'm not calling you out, just making an obversation from my experiences.

If Blizzard packed more than 1 damage with his 11 attack I'm sre he'd make it on to a few more armies.

Thanos is a good figure and he isn't cheap. I think that's most people's problems. They expect to field Thanos and be given the win. Sure in the comics he'd take out Bullseye and Elektra but not here.

One of the only rip off's I can think of is the Fantastic two, Thing and Human Torch. Sure Thing puts out a lot of damage but his attack should be a lil bit higher and Human Torch is a joke to what he should be. I don't like them scaling him down to fit on the team. They should have made the Fantastic Four playable for 300, 400, and 500 point games. The only Human Torch worth playing is the vet.

I personally don't think Wizkid's is doing a bad job with this game at all. I enjoy it a lot. It might suck that Darkseid isn't able to take down 300 point teams by himself but you get over it. If you play the game for fun and not to win prizes at tournaments then you really don't notice these small things. It's only when I go to tournaments I'm reminded of Firelord and every other argument on here.

[Ironman44]

I agree wtih remy. let's understand his point. he is not talking about giving higher attack values, he's talking about a pre determined mapped out point strategy before the fisrt clix was ever made.

he's 100% absolutely right!

[Batman1983]

& now JonL has to try to fix that? I think he is though. go jonL

[captainspud]

Except that as we've seen, Wizkids really didn't have a perfect grasp on what they were doing in the first set. In IC, they themselves were just getting used to the rules, and they ended up making characters with high stats and relatively few superpowers. Then when they made DC, they looked at what they had done in IC, and decided that perhaps their rules would work better with lower stats, but many more powers. And even then, when they got to CT, they realized that neither extreme of stats and powers works entirely well, and went for a middle ground between the two.

So there's no way that they could have effectively pre-planned the entire Marvel universe since their design philosophy is continually changing as they release more sets.

[Ghost_Rider]

I see the point that Remy is trying to make, but it is just a game. Furthermore, I think Wizkids has done a terrific job with the playability aspects. If Thanos was how he*should*be, then he would never be used. He would cost probably near 1000 points, and then people would whine, "why did they make Thanos's point cost so high? I can't even play him!"

Also, I think Human Torch is exactly how he should be. In most of the comics I've read, he isn't very powerful and he gets beaten up often.

I would like to see another more powerful Magneto, but the people who say he is a waste obviously haven't played with him often. I use him all the time and he is pretty wicked. Maybe he isn't as powerful as in the comics, but then again he would probably be around 500 points if he was.

What I'm trying to say is that complaints of this nature are pointless. What's done is done. The only thing we can hope for is new versions of such heroes, which is highly likely as we have already been blessed with a more improved and accurate Spiderman.

Ghost

[Remy Lebeau]

Originally posted by Ironman44
I agree wtih remy. let's understand his point. he is not talking about giving higher attack values, he's talking about a pre determined mapped out point strategy before the fisrt clix was ever made.

he's 100% absolutely right!

Thank You Iron Man.

Guys, listen...

I know the numbers were ####ed up, I know the attack values were ####ed up... You are missing my point, PLAN AHEAD!

Dont put yourself into a situation where your going to have underpowered and overpowered figures... Set it all down from the beginning so when the time comes for those figures to be made, nobody is standing there with a thumb up their ### because they've locked themselves into a corner.

I AM THE KING OF PRAISING WIZKIDS! I love wizkids, I love Wizkids more than cheese, I think they are unbelievable group of people.

But, they still can make errors, and I am pointing out a way which there would be no need for a few of them..

Thx for understanding Iron Man

[Remy Lebeau]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider


What I'm trying to say is that complaints of this nature are pointless. What's done is done. The only thing we can hope for is new versions of such heroes, which is highly likely as we have already been blessed with a more improved and accurate Spiderman.

Ghost

Its as pointless as complaining about a Firelord figure made too powerful or a Pyro figure in the Minions of Evil. I'm not expecting anything to change, just like I hope people on this board who rant abotu stats dont expect them to be changed either, at least if their not playtesters and are determining stats before hand.

[Rynth]

Its easy now to say"What if this game gets big," but back when wizkids was a very young(1 or 2 years at the time I believe) company that was taking a sizable risk making a superhero game.
What if they had planned everything out and Heroclix bombed? Then they would have spent a good deal of time and money researching stuff that they couldn't use. No company that wants to stay in business would do that.

[Doom]

I agree with Remy, they definatly should have thought things out a bit more. Although the game is amazing it does have its flaws. One thing though that I am wondering about is how you think Thanos is so much more powerful than Thor. You said that Thanos devoured a few galaxies to please his girlfriend, well thats not exactly accurate, he killed have the population of the galaxy, oh a yeah and remember he was wearing the INFINITY GAUNTLET at the time! Of course he was more powerful than Thor at THAT time, he was the most powerful being there could be. I thik without the gauntlet Thor would give him a run for his money.

[Ghost_Rider]

It's easy to point fingers after the fact. What I'm trying to say is that Playtesting is a complex process. Most games are tested thoroughly, but no matter what there are always things that slip through the cracks. Look at Collectible Card Games. Some of these companies have been producing games for many years and STILL release over powerful or underpowered cards and mechanics. You can Playtest up the wazoo and problems will always arise. It's inevitable. So let's give them a little credit.

Ghost

[Veggiehater]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider
It's easy to point fingers after the fact. What I'm trying to say is that Playtesting is a complex process. Most games are tested thoroughly, but no matter what there are always things that slip through the cracks. Look at Collectible Card Games. Some of these companies have been producing games for many years and STILL release over powerful or underpowered cards and mechanics. You can Playtest up the wazoo and problems will always arise. It's inevitable. So let's give them a little credit.

Ghost

Yup Wizkids certainly did a wonderful job with HC, if not, then not too many of us would be here right?

But you bring up CCGs and playtesting. Of course things are bound to slip through playtesting in CCGs there are just too many variables and combinations to be taken into account. Both within the set itself and in conjuction with all the previous sets. It's beyond human capacity to foresee every single combination in a CCG.

HC is a bit different, there are far less variables involved simply because each fig essentialy does "the same thing" (move, attack, defense, damage and range). Problem combinations arise more in terms of "groups" of powers or team abilities rather than per individual character (such as stealth + ouwit, or charge + SS, or even taxi + Bane) so they should be much easier to fish out in playtesting.

One other difference is that for the most part, CCG companies devise rather quick and well thought out errata when problems do occur. As much as I hate to say it we haven't seen too much of this kind of support for HC (even just officially clarifying certain rules take weeks here). I just wish that this part of the value chain improves.

'Cause no doubt playtesting and character design have shown remarkable improvements over the course of each release with no signs of slowing down (again great job Jon L!). Unfortunately the FAQ isn't keeping up (8 entries took what, 3 months?). I'm pretty sure that over time this too will improve and then (almost) everyone will be happy, I know I would be. ;)

VH

Edit: fixed spelling, etc.

[dreadstar]

See, again, you guys are trying to apply comic-logic to this game, which DOESN'T WORK. Comics have plots, dramatic storylines, etc. that make them interesting stories. Clix has to incorporate this SPIRIT, which it does; but simply put, WizKids cannot make each character ALL of their potential. This potential is summed up in the "X" factor of the die roll....sometimes a hero or villian is brilliant, leveling buildings...and sometimes they'll fall into the easiest of traps.

THIS GAME IS NOT JUST TAXI/MOVE...SHOOT/CLOSE COMBAT. For all you people moaning about comic book mistranslations, you sure don't get into the spirit of this system. When in a comic book do two teams simply pace off ten steps and fire? The powers, stats, and randomness of die rolls all add up to parrying and fients, perhaps a distraction from a bystander in distress, or a lucky webswing that lands a severely injured Spiderman into a weakened Thanos for a KO hit. (translated, maybe he flurry attacked on his last hit...and someone beefed his damage with a little Perplex or four..could happen!!). Anyhow, to try and capture ALL of comics different nuances wouldn't work...they change too freakin' often. Heck, back in the sixties, ol' Daredevil was pretty much a simp, but his writers have changed that. Now public perception makes him a more powerful character in the Marvel Universe. And Cyclops LESS powerful than Wolverine? I see you starting reading comics in the late eighties...try some old Byrne-era X-Men to disabuse of that notion. See, it all depends on the perspective, and that perspective keeps changing in the comic industry....

Which brings me to my last point...if you really wanted to have Wizkids plan that much, they'd have to chart every Marvel character ever, just in case of course, and playtest each and every one against each other until their heads rolled loose. And you know what? YOU'D STILL BE WAITING FOR THE GAME!!! At least this way, we can play. By trends, you'll see more powerful versions of your favorites (what, Wolverine's on like 15 different figs now...) as well as less powerful. Hold on to your drawers and be patient...the game's ALWAYS evolving, just like its inspiration. It's easy to complain in hindsight, folks.

[trutildeth]

Apparently, the only thing anyone knows about Thanos is from what they read in "Infinity Gauntlet".

Let me explain something to you. All of that cosmic-destroying power belonged to the guantlet, not Thanos. Thanos is superpowered compared to humans (being from Titan), but he's WAAAAAYYYYYY below Thor's level. Drax the Destroyer has demolished him on a number of occasions. The only other time that Thanos was cosmically powered was when he had possession of the Skrull's cosmic cube.

Without something to modify his power, Thanos' only real threat is his scheming intellect which is typically incredible.

Now, if you read "Infinity Gauntlet" you would also realize that Thanos always supplies the method of his undoing subconciously. This means HE ALWAYS LOSES.

Addressing Human Torch: Johnny Storm is, was and will always be a complete jobber in comics. His click is overpowered if anything. Bucket of water + Human Torch = snotty brat

[captainspud]

I'd like to give a big "BOO-YEAH!" to Dreadstar and trutildeth-- you're both right on.

[Ghost_Rider]

Originally posted by Veggiehater


But you bring up CCGs and playtesting. Of course things are bound to slip through playtesting in CCGs there are just too many variables and combinations to be taken into account. Both within the set itself and in conjuction with all the previous sets. It's beyond human capacity to foresee every single combination in a CCG.

HC is a bit different, there are far less variables involved simply because each fig essentialy does "the same thing" (move, attack, defense, damage and range). Problem combinations arise more in terms of "groups" of powers or team abilities rather than per individual character (such as stealth + ouwit, or charge + SS, or even taxi + Bane) so they should be much easier to fish out in playtesting.

One other difference is that for the most part, CCG companies devise rather quick and well thought out errata when problems do occur. As much as I hate to say it we haven't seen too much of this kind of support for HC (even just officially clarifying certain rules take weeks here). I just wish that this part of the value chain improves.

'Cause no doubt playtesting and character design have shown remarkable improvements over the course of each release with no signs of slowing down (again great job Jon L!). Unfortunately the FAQ isn't keeping up (8 entries took what, 3 months?). I'm pretty sure that over time this too will improve and then (almost) everyone will be happy, I know I would be. ;)

VH

Edit: fixed spelling, etc.

I agree with you on the FAQ standpoint, Wizkids really should get more on the ball with that.

However, I don't think that Heroclix is much different than a CCG. There are basically unlimited combos of characters for teams, and all can't be foreseen. Another thing is certain characters get tested a lot but because of the way the team is built, their strength or weakness can be masked. For example, a character might seem okay in testing, but when the set releases (and literally thousands of people put them through the test) it may become evident that it isn't.

Also with Collectible Card Games, usually the first set has the most errata because it's a brand-new game and all of the kinks aren't worked out. It's the same with Heroclix.

I've been a playtester of quite a few games, and I found them all to have the same problems which are:

1. Things always are overlooked, it can't be helped.
2. First sets always have kinks and the most errors.

Ghost

[Remy Lebeau]

People are making the point that it would take such a lot of time and money to playtest all the figures at the beginning. This is not true. First of all the research is at their finger tips which Marvel would provide, and playtesters work for free. And also, I dont mean take 3,000 marvel characters and playtest them.. I mean take the core, lets say, 400 characters, and have their stats ready from the get go.

Plan it out so it doesnt come back to bite you.

I know a lot about playtesting as well, as I playtest for many companies... and playtesting of course cannot catch EVERYTHING, but it sure does help.

Once again, please dont try to portray my view as putting Wizkids down, Im not, I'm just highlighting what would have been a smarter way to go about it at the beginning. All buisnesses have to be prepared for growth wether they like it or not.

[Remy Lebeau]

Oh, yeah, btw...

Thanos may be less powerful without the Infinity Gauntlet.. Ok, a lot less powerful but let's see how well Thor does without the powers of his hammer.

[Ghost_Rider]

Originally posted by Remy Lebeau
People are making the point that it would take such a lot of time and money to playtest all the figures at the beginning. This is not true. First of all the research is at their finger tips which Marvel would provide, and playtesters work for free. And also, I dont mean take 3,000 marvel characters and playtest them.. I mean take the core, lets say, 400 characters, and have their stats ready from the get go.

That is much easier said than done. First of all, Playtesting does take a lot of time, especially if you have a lot of figures in a set. Some people have to design the characters, and others have to do the testing. It's a long process so I don't agree with you there.

Also, Marvel does provide Wizkids with the information. If you look at most characters, they're pretty accurate. Some might be a little bit off, but that's bound to happen. The reason why some powers are left off is to keep them playable. Other versions in future sets will have different powers. This creates a variety and also enables you to have playable characters. It also allows for popular characters to be remade so newbies can have easy access to them.

Finally, having 400 characters stats ready from the get go is just plain crazy. Do you know how much work that would take? Heroclix wouldn't have been out until 2006.

We need to stop this complaining. All it is doing is souring the game for us who like it. If you have problems with it, then quit. Nobody is forcing you to play.

Ghost

[jolt]

People are making the point that it would take such a lot of time and money to playtest all the figures at the beginning. This is not true. First of all the research is at their finger tips which Marvel would provide, and playtesters work for free. And also, I dont mean take 3,000 marvel characters and playtest them.. I mean take the core, lets say, 400 characters, and have their stats ready from the get go

Firstly, the process of playtesting does cost money, the fact that most playtesters aren't being paid is meaningless. Every single day, every single one, that a game is in development costs money. A company like Wizards\Hasbro can afford to do years of playtesting for for something like 3rd edition D&D because a) Wizards of the Coast has a ton of money and b) D&D is an established product with a highly recognizable name that had been popular for almost 20 years. Unfortunately, Wizkids didn't have "a" and Heroclix isn't "b". Secondly, all the reseach wouldn't just be "at their fingertips". Even droppong down to a "mere" 400 characters, most of them have had numerous writers and crossovers over the past 30+ years, and with all the variations of those characters 400 becomes thousands. How quickly do you think all this takes? Marvel and DC can't even maintain their own internal consistancy but another comapny is going to come in and clean up over 30 years of comics? For free? Even if they did all of those things (and somehow doing it quickly without spending gobs of money) there would still be a thread like this one complaining that such and such character didn't have such and such super power that was used in such and such issue 15 years ago and why can't WizKids do more thorough research.

Thanos may be less powerful without the Infinity Gauntlet.. Ok, a lot less powerful but let's see how well Thor does without the powers of his hammer.

But Thor's hammer is, and always has been, an integral part of his character. The Infinity Gauntlet was never a main part of Thanos' story. Spiderman had cosmic powers once, should we be complaining that in Heroclix Spidey isn't portrayed that way?


jolt

[PaxZRake]

Umm... Thor should never ever beat Thanos. Thanos beat him, Hercules, The Hulk, and The Thing down at the same time in Infinity War.

Thanos also beat Thor when Thor had the Power Gem and was going through a berserker rage which considerably ups his stats. Thanos then went on to stalemate Odin.

Thanos is being underrated... odd.

[Remy Lebeau]

Thanos is definatly being underated but thats besides the point.

Ghost Rider, Once again I am not complaing I am highlighting what should have been done differently.

You also are throwing in that it takes someone to "design" these characters, which calls for more money spent.

NO.

They need not design characters that aren't in the upcoming set, you missed the point of the post. The point was to plan ahead ALL the characters so there was no problems with the dials. Designing and even playtesting the characters to a degree can be done when they are decided on for an upcoming set.

[Remy Lebeau]

I think the simple point was " Plan Ahead" to avoid dial problems.

I dont see how so many people can complain about character stats and then disagree with what I just said.

[jedigeof]

If they got it right the first time, we wouldn't buy the "new" Daredevils, Spidermans, & Hulks now would we. Maybe we as consumers should pull our heads out of are @$$es. Oh wait that will never happen will it. Race you to the comic store.

[captainspud]

Ok, to settle the Thanos thing once and for all: Thanos is superhumanly powerful. He's very strong and very tough, and he can shoot energy blasts out of his hands. However, that's the extent of it. Someone like Thor could smash him to a pulp.

During the Infinity War, Thanos got the Gauntlet, which made him obscenely powerful. While thus empowered, he basically became a god and was able to do pretty much anything he wanted.

The Heroclix Thanos is NOT the version with the Gauntlet. How do we know this? THERE ARE NO GEMS ON HIS LEFT HAND. Without the Gems, he is not wearing the Gauntlet, and is therefore only "plain old Thanos". He's still really powerful this way, but he's NOT the version who snuffed out half the universe and beat down 95% of the heroes single-handedly.

And Remy: stop assuming that all that playtesting would be easy. It's not. To do a proper job of playtesting requires large investments of time and money. Playtesting 400 characters all at once is insane-- that would be like suddenly playtesting 16 expansions' worth of R/E/V characters all at one time. Such an endeavor would require years and a LOT of money, and it's just not worth it for Wizkids to do that. Ideally, it would be amazing if they could, but it just isn't practical.

[Kissoon]

Thank you Captain Obvious for explaining that the HC Thanos isn't the godlike Infinity Gauntlet Thanos...However, without the gauntlet, Thanos is still on par with the Silver Surfer and Thor. At the very least he deserves 4 damage for 3 clicks...

[captainspud]

If it was so obvious, then why were people citing his actions during the Infinity War as examples of his power level?

[Grinner]

Okay, from what I'm reading here (and I freely admit I may be misunderstanding various people's POV) it looks like Remy is both right and wrong.

What I believe he's saying here (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) is that they should have come up with a relatively universal scale to rate characters before they even started. Say something like the old Marvel RPG. That way you would have a basis for comparison from Aunt May to Galactus. There would be debate here and there to exact numbers, but you'd have a baseline to work from. And I do agree that this would be a good idea.

But there are a couple of problems with the idea, even before you get into playtesting (the side of the debate I'm not even going to touch). Figuring out just where some people fit on the scale, even before accounting for r/e/v changes, could be difficult. Figuring out just what each stat represents skews things even further. You see, attack value isn't just how well someone fights. Let's face it - Hulk & Juggernaut are not massively skilled fighters. But attack value isn't just power either - Bullseye isn't powerful but he doesn't miss. Professor Xavier would have a hard time punching anyone with some skill in a fist fight, but his mental powers are nearly invincible. The same issues apply to defense. I'm not sure anyone has ever actually taken a swing at Juggernaut and not hit him. But they don't hurt him. And that is represented by a high defense as well as his invulnerability.

The last problem is that the stats in IC are, um...wonky. IC as a whole has always felt rushed, and the fact that every set since has more balanced stats supports that idea. So even if they had done a scale, they'd have to re-adjust everything anyway.

[Kissoon]

To support Remy, X-plosion features a new benchmark in range attack...an unholy 12 range has surfaced on Phoenix and Vet. Mandarin...Of course money comes into it. Yes, we will all buy up the new figs. But, I think Wizkids would like to have a reputation of quality in their product. I'm more than certain that there are several figures that would've deserved 12 range in past sets. Some more planning would've been nice, that's all.

[trutildeth]

Originally posted by Kissoon
without the gauntlet, Thanos is still on par with the Silver Surfer and Thor

Nope. He's not. Thanos is not cosmic-level. He's on par with the rest of the eternals of Titan like Mentor, Starfox and Sui-San. A cosmic-level threat would not require an army of 100,000 space-pirates to conquer a single planetoid of 35,000.

When he fought Thor, Thing, IronMan, Mar-vel he was using the magus projector and star gem.

[Dr. Von Doom]

Doom finds this to be a common problem with lesser figures. Thanos, of course, would have no chance against Doom even if he WERE represented correctly. Still, Doom has to disagree with your idea about attack values. Doom thinks the numbers on the characters are accurate enough. Of course, Doom hates Magneto, so Doom is prejudiced.

Nobody besides Doom is perfect, Remy. The Wizkids employees have established that with Thanos and Magneto. Doom thinks that we will probably be getting more version of Mags, but Thanos WAS(until Doom was released) the most powerful Marvel Heroclix figure around. Doom thinks that Wizkids is trying to produce characters which are as close to their actual powers as possible, but also as powerful as they were in the comics in relation to their fellow figures. Before Clobberin' Time, Thanos COULD devour entire galaxies of Heroclix without the slightest case of indigestion. Wizkids is probably trying to make the characters as powerful as they are in the comics in relation to each other, rather than in relation to the comic book characters. (Come on, if they had actually represented DOOM as he is, then we would all have to field 1000 point teams just to use him alone!)

SO SAYS DOOM!

Dr. Von Doom

[Kissoon]

Strength Level: The exact extent of Thanos's physical strength is not known, but he was able to engage both the Thing and Thor in hand-to-hand combat simultaneously for an extended period of time and hold his own. Presumably, then, Thanos possessed at least Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons.

Known Superhuman Powers: Thanos possessed incalculable superhuman power. By far the most powerful of the Titanian Eternals, Thanos was a mutant whose massive, heavy-bided body was born with the capacity to synthesize cosmic energy for certain personal uses. (This is a trait that Thanos shared with his father Alars and all Earthborn Eternals but not with Titan-born Eternals. Through still unknown bionic amplification, Thanos increased his physical strength and resilience to levels surpassing even the strongest of the Earth Eternals. Through meditation and certain mystical techniques, Thanos augmented his power in still other ways, enabling him to tap, transform, and direct vast quantities of cosmic energy for destructive force. His skin in nearly invulnerable, particularly against heat, cold, electricity, radiation, toxins, aging, and disease, and he can survive indefinitely without food or water even before his "curse" from Death left him immortal, unable to die. His mind is also invulnerable to most forms of psychic attack, and can project a psionic blast of energy as well as blasts of plasma/cosmic energy from his eyes and hands. He usually employs a hovering chair with additional offensive weapons and the ability to teleport fantastic distances. Deadliest of all Thanos's attributes, perhaps, was his mind, whose superhuman level of intellect was totally dedicated to the annihilation of life.

www.marveldirectory.com

[Shadowgt]

I'm sure Wizkids tried to plan as best they could. They've made some mistakes, but they will learn from experience.

When Magic: The Gathering came out back in the day you know how many OVERPOWERED/BROKEN cards there were?

Things fix and change with time. You are right to an extent, but what I think is really stupid is the whole Silver Surfer issue, saying he's too powerful. If they can tone down others into Heroclix, they can tone down the Surfer.

[Remy Lebeau]

HAHA, alright, This is frigging hysterical because this is exactly where I didnt want this thread to go.

I have started another Thanos debate, me personally? I think hes a kick a$$ characters who would level Thor, I could be wrong but quite frankly I dont care, thats not why I started this thread.

Another topic I dont care about, playtesting. I am a playtestor. Does it cost money? Yes. The time put into it alone costs the company money. Is it worth it to playtest a lot in the beginning? Thats your own opinion and once again somthing I dont care about, nor did I inspire to talk about when I created this thread.

The #### thread is about planning ahead so the stats dont look ridiculous. I see more and more people agreeing with me now, which is nice and I praise you for looking past the Thanos conversation. I dont care about the playtesting cost, will it cost money? Yes. Will it put Wizkids out of buisness? No.

Guys, lets leave Thanos and Playtesting at the door, its my fault for even saying the names.

This is about pre-determining stats for key characters, argue until the cows come home, the benefits out weigh the costs. If the figures ever come into production they'll have to be playtested anyway, they might as well do it in the beginning, put the money up front, and deliver a better product.

[captainspud]

Dude, playtesting IS the issue. They can't just write down 400 sets of stats and trust that they'll be balanced. The moment they write down the stats, they MUST try them out to make sure that they work out within the context of the game. So despite what you may think, pre-planning WOULD involve a ton of playtesting-- you can't skip this issue.

If they didn't playtest every single figure, then there's no way of knowing if the stats they've chosen for the figures actually work. Sure, it's fine to decide arbitrarily that Wolverine would have a higher Attack value than Cyclops, but unless you actually do a few trial runs, you run the risk of making a decision that's going to grossly imbalance the game.

Another possible situation: It's three weeks before the release of IC, all of the stats of the characters in that set are set in stone, and Jon L turns his attention to writing down the rest of the marvel universe's stats. The way Firelord was tested, his damage of 3 and RCE works really well when balanced off with a defense value drops like a stone. He decides that this should be the basis of all high-powered ranged fighters, and writes down the stats of thirty mainstream characters as having this combo. He doesn't playtest these characters because the combination worked so well on Firelord and he figures it will work on anybody else.

Soon, IC is released, Firelord is discovered by the masses, and he gets used to systematically rape every other figure in the game.

Jon desperately looks over his list, and sees to his horror that the Marvel Universe contains three dozen Firelords destined to be released in the coming years. However, the list is down, and has already been balanced in such a way that every character is proportional to every other. Removing the Firelord clones would upset the balance of the game.

Scenario 1: Jon decides to leave things as they are, and releases the characters as they are. The "fun factor" of the game is destroyed as it degenerates into a never-ending arms race of who can make the best use of the uber-powerful figures.

Scenario 2: Jon changes the Firelords to another combination of powers, and releases them. However, another combination of powers he had originally planned as a defense against the Firelord combo, let's say the Bane Combo, is now free to run rampant in the game. Dozens of figures are designed with this combo, and they destroy all other figures in the game with ease.

Scenario 2b: Jon catches the Bane Combo, and nerfs it in some way. Suddenly, the Dr. Octopus combo emerges as the dominating factor in the game. Etc etc etc until Jon DOESN'T catch a combo, and it takes over.

Scenario 3: Jon looks at the list, says "Screw it", tosses it in the garbage, and begins anew. Hence, there was no point in making the list to begin with.

The only way to have these situations NOT come to pass is for the game to have perfect balance before the figures are released, and the only way to get that is to playtest every single one of the 400 figures beforehand. And as we've already established, that isn't practical.

Come on, try to refute this. I dare you.

[Remy Lebeau]

You dare me? Really no reason for dares, lets be adults right?

Well, I know for a fact certain companies playtest in advance and though I am not allowed to say which, you'd be surprised. Enough talk about playtesting, if Wizkids didnt have the money we wouldnt be seeing them in department stores like Toys R us, thats the truth.

I personally believe playtesting or at least making a character guide, like I wrote in my first post ( Jubilee, Logan, Thor, Galactus ) is a good idea.

If you disagree its fine, Im just expressing my opinion.

[Shazam13244]

Remy, i've read every post I was inclined to agree with everything you said....someone compared the stats out of the RPG, another guy actually copies an excerpt from the Marvel universe, and I thought these guys are one to something...a scale of 30 figs in move, another 30 in attack, another 30 in defense and lastly 30 in damage. with these 30 fig you could grab a guy like say Silver Surfer, and select his stats easily....it would take me no more than a weekend to create to scale myself and anyfigure you handed me, i could rate and tell you his points in minutes....

Then here's what happened...Thanos (sorry I had to bring him up again) Had the highest move (teleport), the Highest Attack (no one in marvel can withstand him), the highest Defense (totally invulernable....not even psy blast works on him), and his damage was the highest too (yes he destroys thor, and I am a Thor lover!!) And He had all sorts of powers and ended up 400+ points and wizkids thinks to them selves "no one is gonna want this guy" thus no money made, sure a few of us would get him to say "he kicks butt" WHY BOTHER MAKING HIM..or let's even go as far as making him R/E/V....HERE'S WHERE I DISAGREED WITH YOU...the number crushers who are hurting the game now, would just play the 200 pt THANOS everytime, already knowing that there is no possible way any 200 pt army could take him and every tournament would be 200pt Thanos vs. 200 pt THANOS....so remember it's like a movie "based on the book" not "the book itself" It's a game, based on the comics, but set in a world that Black Panther, scarlet witch, electra, blade and wolverine could KO our 200 pt Thanos in one round.

[GroovyBoy]

Originally posted by Remy Lebeau
Oh, yeah, btw...

Thanos may be less powerful without the Infinity Gauntlet.. Ok, a lot less powerful but let's see how well Thor does without the powers of his hammer.

Okay, does Thanos' figure show him holding the Infinity Gauntlet or the Cosmic Cube? Um....no. Does Thor's show him holding Mjoolscandithingie? Um...yes. Notice the difference?

[captainspud]

And even beyond that-- Thor IS the hammer. The hammer IS Thor. In Marvel Comics, the two have always been pretty much one and the same. Whereas Thanos only ever had the Gauntlet and the Cube for very, very short periods of time. They are not essential to Thanos' character in the same way that the hammer is to Thor's.

[Badges2]

Here is the summary of what I have to say to Wizkids. If you read no other posts of mine that I have ever made, please read these bold words.

Don't be afraid to make large-costing figures.

Wizkids is so afraid of making an over-200 pt character. All we've got so far is LE Supes. (yeah, i'm sure gl will be high, but that's not the point) I want to see a Phoenix that will exterminate the board with one blow. I want an Infinity Gaunlet Thanos. I want to see the Man of Steel, not Boy of Aluminum. I want a Doomsday who can really kill that Man of Steel.

The reason most games are between 200-400pts. is because that is the general range of an army. Making a 275pts. figure won't make us quit buying your products. It will just make us play 300-600pts. games. There will be the people who don't want that 358pts. figure because they like playing smaller point games. Therefore they won't want to collect him, or will trade him away cheaply. So what? I can't stand my Key. Exp. White Queen can whip his @ss in her sleep. I want him to collect. Some want him to play. Others don't want him at all. But, that never made us quit buying boosters. I have never ever heard anyone say "I don't want to buy any more boosters, because I'm afraid of getting another d@mn _____." Never. We all say "God D@mn It! Why did I buy this? I knew that I'd get this stupid _______ again. I've already got 12. Arrgh. Oh, well. Give me another booster, and let's hope I don't do it again."

I must have 50 thugs, henchman, hydra, yellowjackets, etc. But, everytime I got one I'd only curse my luck and not Wizkids. Usually you figure that since you had such bad luck, if you buy another instead of lunch, you'll get better figures.

Moral of the story - sucky figures make Wizkids more money. ie - Wizkids should make more sucky figures.

....wait....that...doesn't..sound...right....???

[GroovyBoy]

Hey Badges, IF Wizkids makes a 400+ point Infinity Gauntlet-wearing Thanos, although I'll probably never get the chance to play it, I won't complain about it and I'll still try to collect it. Heck, if they wanna make 300-point figures, I say go for it. Paint the town red, rename it Hell, and make the town midget the sheriff. Having that figure be your only piece on the board in a 300-point game may not be the wisest decision in the world, but more power to the player who wants to give it a shot...

[Badges2]

I'm not saying make 1/3 of the figures cost an insane amount. I'm saying that make them true to comic-dom. There are only about 4-5 clix in each set that people call underpowered. If the set contains 96 figures, make only 4-5 over 200. One REV that's like 190 - 210 - 230 and one or two U that are 283 and 341. I'd be happy with just one figure over the mark in each set.

[Jean_genie]

Originally posted by captainspud
Ok, to settle the Thanos thing once and for all....

And this is why you should never utter that phrase to fanboys: because it never stops there, and you look like a tard. Not like I'm trying to call anyone names ..... I'm just ..... y'know ..... sayin'.

As far as Thanos goes (in as few words as possible), I feel he's off, but not too far. He should have a high attack, but not that high. I'd drop his attack a hair, drop the third arrow, and then probably use the points to put RCE somewhere down the dial. It's really a shame that even though the guy can regenerate, he can't go back into 3 damage. So in other words, he'd NEVER beat Hulk. But his figure is close in my mind.

I pretty much agree with Remy as far as the guide goes, but it's tough, ya know? Like Grinner said, sometimes high stats mean different things, and it's tough to work that into a scale. Puppet Master could have had a higher attack to mind control, but then he'd be able to fight just as well as Daredevil, with 1 damage as opposed to 2. I agree totally with the fact that it's not powers that are broken, but the combinations of them. However, I don't agree that the L man needs to nip all these in the bud OR ignore them totally.

Many people(and especially gamers and young people, who - and let's be honest here - aren't known for their social skills) are very prone to arguing things using two main arguments. The "ad absurdum" argument(if I didn't just screw up my Latin) basically takes everything to such an extreme that it's stupid, or breaks it down to make it look stupid. Which is kinda' worthless, seeing as we're arguing about little plastic figures. I mean, we're not exactly spending our time wisely to begin with.

The other most common agument is "the slippery slope" argument, which captainspud used. This argument basically assumes that something worse will always follow, and that it can only go downhill. To be honest, this argument really cheeses me off. I mean, to make any sense out of it, you have to be totally clairvoyant! "Oh, you mean you know exactly what will happen next? And it can ONLY get worse? And you DARE me to say you're wrong?!"

Anyway, this little digression has a wonderfully important point, looming somewhere on the distant horizon. And that is that if you think about it long enough, you can come up with an ad absurdum or slippery slope argument for literally anything. Which is why to be honest, you're wasting your breath in telling us that errata (or anything else) can only get worse; I can just as easily explain why NOT having errata (or anything else, again) can have the same effect.

A little something to dote on next time you think you have the answer.

And no Spudman, I'm not trying to pick on you or ridicule you .... you just happen to be the only name I can remember of all the people who have done the same thing on this board. It's not an easy name to forget :)

[Remy Lebeau]

Thanks to those supporting the idea of the pre-determined power values.. Forget about Thanos and playtesting, to predetermine a range of stats is a great Idea, especially with powerful figures.

[Drashia]

Didn't WK change designers somewhere along the line?

[trutildeth]

Originally posted by Kissoon
[B]Strength Level: The exact extent of Thanos's physical strength is not known, but he was able to engage both the Thing and Thor in hand-to-hand combat simultaneously for an extended period of time and hold his own. Presumably, then, Thanos possessed at least Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons.

While his power was augmented.

Thanos possessed incalculable superhuman power.

Through still unknown bionic amplification

Thanos augmented his power in still other ways

Deadliest of all Thanos's attributes, perhaps, was his mind

So the click represents Thanos without augmentation such as the star, the magus, the cosmic cube and the infinity gauntlet.

BTW, most of the stuff at Marvel Directory is from the "Official Handbook" which has been retconned.

[Remy Lebeau]

Yeah, but we're trying to steer this conversation away from a Thanos debate. His name was only used as an example.

[Remy Lebeau]

Originally posted by Drashia
Didn't WK change designers somewhere along the line?

Not sure. I dont know if they changed game designers, but as far as sculptors go the CT and XP clix look a lot better than the IC.