object on roof edge for batmen = stealthed?

[lancelot]

i just got back from a tourney, a non-tourney actually, but i did play anyway...i had a major beef with one ruling...

i had asked about this before and was told it was legit but the house judge said it wasnt...

i put a light object on the very edge of the blocking terrain line on a roof (the roof edge), hereby making the object a roof object...i then moved Robin to the same square as the object, therefore stealthing him, but the judge said even tho he was stealthed, he can still be targeted by ground figures with enough range...i told him he couldnt! he says that it s possible because of the interpretation of the rulings of Batman Ally and grounded to elevated line of fire...

i really need this cleared up so i can tell the house judge he erred, not that it was a big of a deal, i won both games i played, but it was really a big beef since my team pretty much uses the objects on the roof as a major strategy, so i d like a straight answer, thanks!

[metzgarob]

as far as i know u are in the right bro

[Funky Jett]

The short and sweet of it, bud...

You were jobbed.

An object on the roof doesn't make it Elevated Blocking Terrain, so Robin would be able to use his Stealth. The house judge either doesn't understand Stealth or doesn't understand ground-to-elevated attacks, possibly both. Sorry dude, but Robin would have been in Stealth.

[LuckyJ]

a leap/climb figure on non-elevated terrain can still make a close combat attack against your elevated Robin at the roof's edge if they're in adjacent map squares. Don't forget that.

[lancelot]

it d be a different story for those with the superman team ability, but vet steel doesnt, and he was beating up on my robin, but like i said, i won both games anway, and i wanted this answered so i d print it out and bring it next week so he d know for future reference because my god, it s such sweetness for robin/batman/huntress to just campout on a roof corner ;-)

[theZehrung]

To detract from Lancelot's quote - "because of the interpretation of the rulings of Batman Ally and grounded to elevated line of fire... " - from what I have seen their perspective between him and the judge...Lancelot pointed out from PAC book saying that the Batman Ally's "Any line of fire drawn to this character that passes through hindering terrain, including the square that this figure occupies, is treated as though it has been drawn through BLOCKING terrain."

From the house judge's perspective - he followed up by using DC's Heroclix hypertime Complete Rules - page 18 - "A grounded character can make a ranged combat attack against an elevated figure if the only BLOCKING terrain the line of fire crosses is in the square the target occupies."

Steel has a line of fire drawn to Robin that passes through hindering, now BLOCKING, terrain (television). So Steel was the grounded character who can make a RCA against Robin, an elevated figure, even though television, a BLOCKING terrain, the line of fire crosses is in the square Robin occupies. So...

Looks like the judge was right. It's clear right there. So let's have a flame war on.

[lancelot]

theZehrung, you seem to make the same mistake that the judge made...

thinking putting a light/heavy object on a roof edge MAKES it blocking terrain...where does it say ANYWHERE that hindering terrain objects are considered blocking if on edge of blocking terrain lines, i.e. roofs?

it states in the rulebook that objects are to be considred hindering terrain UNTIL held by someone with super strength, so therefore, even on a roof's edge, it is STILL HINDERING TERRAIN, THEREFORE STEALTHING ROBIN!

although, a judge has yet to rule on this, let's see...

i did tell to the house judge he was correct as per se the INTERPRETATION of the rule, but i strongly felt that the object WAS NOT to be considered period...so lets see...flame war indeed...

[theZehrung]

"theZehrung, you seem to make the same mistake that the judge made..." - no, we do not make the mistake, we are just saying our perspective as per accordance to the PAC and Rules and it seems to me that the judge and I are in the agreement because we share the same perspective.

"thinking putting a light/heavy object on a roof edge MAKES it blocking terrain...where does it say ANYWHERE that hindering terrain objects are considered blocking if on edge of blocking terrain lines, i.e. roofs? " --- the PAC stated there out right there - "....Hindering terrain, including the square that this figure occupies, is TREATED as though it has been drawn through blocking terrain."

"it states in the rulebook that objects are to be considred hindering terrain UNTIL held by someone with super strength, so therefore, even on a roof's edge, it is STILL HINDERING TERRAIN, THEREFORE STEALTHING ROBIN!" --- Even though Robin is stealthing, he is TRANSFORMING the hindering terrain into a blocking terrain, which allowed Steel to inflict at elast three damage - "Characters CAN destroy a single square of blocking terrain by making an attack and inflicting at least three clicks in a single attack" - which he did - successfully destroyed the blocking terrain where Robin occupies the same square, thus the damage is inflicted upon Robin. (page 18 - DC's Complete Rules")

"although, a judge has yet to rule on this, let's see... " - oh boy, I agree! We have two different completely perspective from what we read from the rule book. I will need to check the FAQ to get more information.

"flame war indeed..." ---- well, the only person who can put a halt to it is the moderator or the judge.... :)

[Badges2]

Originally posted by theZehrung
"Any line of fire drawn to this character that passes through hindering terrain, including the square that this figure occupies, is treated as though it has been drawn through BLOCKING terrain."

You said it yourself, Zehrung. It never says that that is BLOCKING terrain. The Line of Sight is blocked. It says to treat the LOS as blocked instead of hindered. It never says that the Hindering Terrain is now classified as Blocking Terrain. The Hindering Terrain is still just that, Hindering. Only LOS is blocked

Example: Superman Ally - "Characters on this team ignore the effects of hindering terrain (including team abilities that grant hindering terrain bonuses) on movement and combat."

It still says hindering, not blocked. Batman Ally only changes LOS. If it turned hindering into blocking, Superman Ally would have no effect on it, because it is no longer hindering.

[HeroComplex]

The idea that Stealth actually transforms hindering terrain into blocking terrain is probably the most common misconception about the power. In no way does Stealth actually alter the figure's surroundings---only LOF is affected by any aspect of the power. And the LOF is blocked if it is drawn through hindering terrain, but that does not mean that any one square has blocking terrain---it is an affect of LOF as a whole.

Also, theZehrung, could you elaborate what you posted above about Steel's damage and blocking terrain. The passage you quoted explains that 3 clicks are required to destroy blocking terrain, but the way you interpreted it...it seems you are using the blocking terrain to somehow enhance Steel's damage, as well as attempting to do damage to a figure by destroying terrain.

[theZehrung]

Ah...whew! much relieved! :) Thanks for the elaboration and clarification by Hero and Badges. Even though my English is not that good and my second language, I do sometimes get puzzled without explanation or any visual aids because it is much more complicated than reading and playing at the same time. Thanks! and I am sure that Lancelot will be very ecsastic once he finds out that he has been correct all along. *grin*

For Hero's question about Steel's inflicting damage of 3, since I read that in rule book saying that Steel or any character who has a superstrength can damage a blocking terrain if he has at least 3 clicks so I assume that once Steel uses the RCE with his superstrength (i.e. Steel hurls his hammer at the blocking terrain (and Robin is in it) thus damaging it). Did I make sense?

[lancelot]

theZehrung, thanks ;-) and yea, you didnt exactly make sense about that destroying the object...i remember reading somewhere that destroying objects doesnt inflict any damage to the person standing in the square of the object...oh whew, back to hiding on roofs :D

[scowlingone]

In the above example, if Robin is standing on an object, he is not targetable by a ranged attack (except by models with the Superman Ally team ability).

If someone destroys the object, the object is replaced by rubble.

This rubble is also hindering terrain. Robin is still Stealthed.

You can't destroy the rubble. Models don't take damage from being in the same square as an object the object is destroyed.

It all seems clear to me: the judge screwed up. Lancelot, you should print out this thread once enough judges have chimed in and pass it to the judge in question next time around.

[lancelot]

holy! i emailed the judge with the thread to the site itself, they're still overriding me, stating the rulebook over and over, even though they have HCRealms right in their face OVERRULING them...jeez, what do i do?!?

[HeroComplex]

Send the question to Chapeau for an official answer. Whichever way he rules, it is official as per the opening statement of the FAQ.

[Badges2]

I'm very pround of theZehrung for admitting he was incorrect. It takes a big man to step off his pedistool and admit he was wrong. Good job theZehrung.

Unfortunatly, I guess that some people *cough,judge,cough* can't admit when they are wrong. It sounds like somebody must have a stick up his butt or something. I think that HeroComplex and I made it clear and very easy to understand why he was wrong. It affects LOS, and nothing else. Hindering terrain is just that; it never becomes "blocking" hindering terrain.

Oh well. I'm glad that you won those games anyway. I just don't want to see anyone else get cheated for something so zanny. Good luck on winning him over, though.

All the best.
~BADGES~

[Doomtoy]

Wording is everything.

"A grounded character can make a ranged combat attack against an elevated figure if the only BLOCKING terrain the line of fire crosses is in the square the target occupies."

You realize this means that if you are standing DIRECTLY IN LINE with a guy on top of a building... and he's standing on the edge of the building... you CAN shoot him... but if you're off to one side or the other, you can't?

Imagine this:



..............R.................................
_________________________
.................................................
..................................................
..............B..................................

R is Robin. B is Bullseye. The line represents the edge of the building. Let's say Robin is on the edge, right behind that line. Bullseye is a few squares away, in the street. Can Bullseye shoot him? SURE he can! NO sweat!

BUT...

................................R................
_________________________
..................................................
..................................................
.......................B.........................

Let's move Bullseye two squares to the left. This means that his LOF will have to go through the square NEXT to Robin on the rooftop... NOT through the square Robin is IN... which means that, according to the way the rules are worded, Bullseye can not shoot Robin now, even if the range is the same, and Robin is still there hanging his face out in plain view. The LOF will be crossing through the thick black line in a square Robin is NOT IN, and therefore, it's no longer a legal shot.

What the heck is up with THAT?

[HeroComplex]

Doomtoy, it's hard to tell the spacing right from the diagram, but if I'm reading it right, the attack is actually legal in that scenario.

But your reasoning is sound. An elevated figure on the roof edge essentially has a 90-degree arc of squares to which he has LOF, 45 degrees to each side: B
---
-----
-------
---------
-----------

[Tsannik]

Actually...
..............R.................................
.............xxx..................................
............xxxxx.................................
...........xxxBxxx...............................

You'd have to move more than just two squares...
Don't forget about the 'Perfect Diagonals'

Figure R would be targetable by Figure B and anywhere there is a 'x'.

Edited: ACK!!!! Am... dying..... Hero....Complex.... beat...me...to..the..ruling.........*gasp*

[HeroComplex]

Edited: ACK!!!! Am... dying..... Hero....Complex.... beat...me...to..the..ruling.........*gasp* At last---my Jedi powers!

[Doomtoy]

Ah, well. I might have been a bit off in my diagram. But I wasn't talking about R's line of fire... but B's! R has LOF anywhere on the he can see, from that position!

B, on the other hand... is in a position where if his LOF crosses ANY thick black building line OTHER THAN THE ONE BORDERING THE SQUARE R is in, he's screwed, according to the wording of the rule.

It was a hell of a thing to find out in mid-game...

[HeroComplex]

Jedi powers---activate! --------- .
-------
-----
---
BFollowing B's LOF, he can target any of the dash-ed squares on the roof, and figures in any of those dashed squares can target him. LOF between elevations is perfectly reciprocal unless there are figures or hindering terrain in the way.

[haraggan]

So, if a figure with stealth or the Batman team ability is on the edge of the roof, but without the television set/hot-dog stand or whatnot, is that figure not hidden? I was in a game recently in which an opponent camped Batman out on a rooftop corner and annoyingly outwitted my abilities left and right, while responding "you can't see him" to any attack. Are there any conditions in which the building edge alone is enough cover for stealth?

Thanks!

[lancelot]

wow such posts for a simple ruling that just got out of hand by one judge...how does one contact chapeau? PM him? i m still a newbie to HCR ...

doomtoy, i m thinking, bullseye has clear line of fire to robin as long as robin is on ANY edge of the roof since you just measure LOF from the middle of the square to the middle of the square he s on edge of, not to the "left/right" of robin, but the black line that he is actually bordering on...

[lancelot]

haraggan, you were robbed! UNLESS batman was inside an object (light/heavy/3D), he is visible LOF-wise from the ground!

[haraggan]

Oy veh! I demand a rematch! :mad:

[lancelot]

of course, given that batman was on edge of the roof, but it seems that he was given the fact that you said he was outwitting you left and right, so yeah he must ve been on the edge of the roof, clearly targetable unless inside something else...also EBT does not grant stealth, EBT being those objects inside thick black lines ON the roof. hope that clear things up

[haraggan]

Thanks! So, what does EBT stand for? Do they not grant stealth because they are blocking, and not hindering terrain (and so presumably Batman is tanding on top of them)? I don't remember a rule about them.

[HeroComplex]

Elevated Blocking Terrain, referring to the roof vents and AC units which populate some outdoor maps. And the rules for them are...complex...but you're right that they do not act as hindering terrain and therefore figures on them do not receive benefits from Stealth.

[haraggan]

Veddy interrresting! Many thanks.

So, forgive me for sounding like a bonehead, but just to be sure: Batman is not in stealth mode at the edge of the roof, vis a vis grounded characters with a line of sight. If he steps back a square from the roof's edge, he is hidden from figures on the ground, but so would be any character, right? And his LOS to grounded characters is likewise cut off.

Regarding flying characters, LOS is only blocked by the usual terrain/other figure factors and the rooftop/edge isn't even an issue.

[HeroComplex]

Right on the first paragraph.

The second, though---not sure what you're saying. If you're referring to soaring figures, then remember that a soaring figure may not directly affect any non-soaring figure, and hovering figures follow normal non-flying rules for establishing LOF.

[Funky Jett]

<Ed McMahon voice>

You are correct, sir!

</Ed McMahon voice>

(at least on the first issue)