A resonable Plea to Heroclix Game Design team

[darklogos]

Hello,

I am Darklogos. I am not a big tourney champ. I was judge for almost 2 years under the old wizkids. I have been around and played in various areas. I've studied the game and memorized many pieces. I've been playing for over 5 years. Not as long as some but longer then many. I've talked tactics with various thinkers in the game. I put up tactical threads in the Strat forum on a decent basis.

I say this for a plea to rethink and tone down the direction heroclix is going. I'm going to cover 3 points that need to be addressed and fixed.

1.Generic Keywords overpowering nature in the game.
2. Over powering special powers that are overpowered due to low point cost.
3. The increase in statistical power creep. (purely the numbers)

1. Generic keywords are a mistake and need to be rethought or take the whole mechanic to the drawing board again. Please read my points in this (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289695) thread. I show that as of right now Scientist is the strongest of keywords to competitively play due to fact of figure spam. In a close second is mystical.

You might ask what figure spam is. It is the use of cheap figures to gain prob and pulls to map roll using theme team mechanic. Sub 20 pt figures with generic keywords is a problem. It allows one to force map control in a low point and high point games. In low point games it lets one pick games without handicap. The 2 key pieces that do this is Scarlet Witch and the newly created Researcher. Both pieces are very cheap and packing them in multiplicity does not hurt your theme team whatsoever. Three researchers cost 45pts. Two Scarlet Witches cost 70pts. You're look at less then a 3rd of your team. The theme player has A. little risk on being on a map that will hurt their team, and B. the amount of additional prob can bail them out in tight spots with little setbacks.

Seth, ironically, pulled a Scarlet Witch and said "No more Mutants." He stated that the fact that there are so many mutants that the mutant keyword would run crazy and ultimately dominate the meta. What we are seeing now is what Seth saw in Mutant that is going on in Mystical, Scientist, and to a lesser extent Spy, Solider, and Martial Artist. These keywords have triumphed over Monster, Police, and Brute in the areas of primary and secondary attacker, support figures, gimmicks, and taxis. Truthfully are we at a point in which we must say no more generic keywords? I would say that we are on the precipice of such decession unless generic keywords lose either plus to map roll or prob. One of them has to go. Its that or going through from this point on completely re-balancing the keywords. Sadly due to the nature of the game that would cause a great loss of authenticity to the characters. Bishop is a mutant he should have the keyword. But a mutant team should not be as strong in the realm of Keywords as Avengers, Brotherhood, JLA, and outsiders.

2. There are certain power combos that make certain roles viable. With the advent of special powers previous combos of powers that never came together made some monster pieces. The problem is that many of these powers are under costed. I believe that stealth and hss is an imbalanced combo due to how the game is played. The cost for having both at the same time is proven to be to low. For Skrull Ms. Marvel to be under 200pts for what she has is ludicrous. Its not the fact that its fun to play the figure. Its the fact is that existence of the figure greatly limits the meta into a pigeon hole. The proof of this combo being a mistake is the similataneous creation Dr. Strange, Skrull Kill crew, and followed up by HOT Cap America, Clark Ken LE, and Bullseye. It is the same thinking that was behind creating figures to deal with the SIF issues instead of errating SIF. The problem is that none of these figures that were built as counters would be what they are without the existence of this one piece. The problem is that in spite of the proven under cost of the combo the same thing is repeated with Nightcrawler. This is not a NC is broke and the game is over thread. But I really have to ask who outside of the Heroclix staff really tested this figure? Was having the yanking ability and hss for the same amount of points to weak? I doubt it. The NC would have to play more tactically and they had to wait for when they were going to attack.

One might say that I just have a problem with stealth/HSS combo. Well no Dopplegangers ubber flurry is another under costed power that was not thought out. In the realm of indomitable adding another token to a figure doesn't nessecarly do anything negative to the other player. Doppleganger has a high attack and damage values. Being able to do 4 attacks for 3-4 damage a pop is way stronger then Hercules charge/flurry dual object combo. For the pure fact that you pay a lot more Hercules and once you use those object they are gone. You can't do four attacks with Hercules.

I could go on about super perplex and other things. The cost for special powers has to be beyond winging it. A formula needs to be created. The middle ground between Avengers and Hot would be good. I think Crisis and Mutants and Monsters are better examples of well costed special powers. Is it perfect? No but its a lot more balanced while being creative.

3. The increase in the actual stats of figures is starting to become concerning. THe reason we had the SINISTER and Crisis sets come out the way they did because the stats and powers were off the chain. Things needed to be brought back down. What happened was in the transitioning out of powercreep we had to deal with 2 years of suffering. The old pieces were still legal and the new pieces had a hard time competing. We are hitting that stride once again. I think we are about to see a repeat of the past mistake of Legacy and Icons in the era of specia powers. WOS and BB is pointing to that truth. Look at how much Shazam costs of the Black Adam Shazam duo. At a 140 points he can do more damage then just about any other figure in is point category. Look at figures with 11 attack and 5 or greater damage and you find only one under 150pts.

Another example of 19 defenses we are seeing. In the past a 19 was unheard of. If it showed up it was really rare. Since HOT we have had 14 figures with 19 defense. To put it in perspective that is the same amount of 19's found from Avengers to AA. That says a lot.

The game is just getting back into full swing. I know it seems tempting to flood the market with a bunch of very powerful pieces to drive sales. But just like before it will back-fire. People will leave the game. People will complain about opening salvos and HSS+Range+4+ damage is default mechanic to lean towards. Making hard counter pieces will eventually frustrate people and will prove not to be effective in the long vision of the game. I'm not going to add in a pander for a job, nor to be a play tester or rules person. Those things are in place but it seems that Game Development needs to really sit back and think like a min-maxer and realize the effect that mentality will have on the game.

Thanks for reading and hopefully we can have some sound dialogue on this.

[songwriterz]

Hello,

I am Darklogos. <snip>
Thanks for reading and hopefully we can have some sound dialogue on this.

Wow. I agree. On all points. Very well said. I hope someone at WK is listening.

[invisibo]

I'll second this--I don't think it's as big a problem now that theme team's bonuses have been reduced in modern age, (no BFC ignoring since there aren't BFCs).

You did overlook 'teen' though, which has consistently been a solid choice.

[hair10]

Wow. I agree. On all points. Very well said. I hope someone at WK is listening.

Ditto what songwriterz said. Some incoming rep for the OP in 3, 2, 1...

[darklogos]

I'll second this--I don't think it's as big a problem now that theme team's bonuses have been reduced in modern age, (no BFC ignoring since there aren't BFCs).

You did overlook 'teen' though, which has consistently been a solid choice.

To me Teen had its champion in modern age retired and that was Young Superman from the Legion starter. By far he was the best 300 pt format hitter for teen. Out teen now its real big solid hitters are Captain Marvel Jr. and Thor Girl. Most the teen figures pack 3 or less damage. Victor Mancha will help things out a ton but he will not be able to carry the keyword. Also they do not have one of the better spam figures anymore. Cukoos where the stuff for a long while but they where paired up with Jakeem Thunder to override their crappy defense.

Can teen make a come back? Yes it can but I don't see it happening for at least another year or 2.

[Puuka]

My thoughts:
Generic Keywords= one extra action at the beginning of each of your turns (like a free automatic leadership roll). Further leadership rolls can still be made.
Non Generic Keywords= Keep it at the current theme bonus.

This doesn't make the generic theme as strong, but, being that they are more likely a lot of smaller point figs, the extra action would help them. The non generic, would show that you are facing an experienced team that is used to working together (In general)

Maybe have it where if they have a "double" theme team where they have both the same generic and non generic keywords on all members of their team, they get both bonuses. Maybe word it so that it only works if there is no duplicated named figures, or at least Xnumber of figures with a unique name (Like the BFC Assembled was)

[invisibo]

To me Teen had its champion in modern age retired and that was Young Superman from the Legion starter. By far he was the best 300 pt format hitter for teen. Out teen now its real big solid hitters are Captain Marvel Jr. and Thor Girl. Most the teen figures pack 3 or less damage. Victor Mancha will help things out a ton but he will not be able to carry the keyword. Also they do not have one of the better spam figures anymore. Cukoos where the stuff for a long while but they where paired up with Jakeem Thunder to override their crappy defense.

Can teen make a come back? Yes it can but I don't see it happening for at least another year or 2.
general retirement of the LoSH has hurt it more than anything.

[wintremute]

I agree with Darklogos.

It seems at time the distant future of the game is not considered when making each set, just the near future.

[MattMinus]

Less QQ, moar pew pew

[ThePancakeMan]

@ Darklogos... THANK YOU!!!!!!

[lancelot]

Great, a well-thought out post that I agree with. Awesome.

[MangaFox]

1. I'm not sure that generic keywords are overpowering the game, but then again the only major tournament I've been to (wondercon) ran a non-generic theme team tourney. Are scientist theme teams really kicking-butt all over the place?

2. The only power combo I have real issues with is stealth+HSS. That combo should skyrocket the price of a figure imo.

3. Escalating stats are fine if the figures are costed appropriately. Legacy, Icons and HoT had high average stats because they were full of high pointed power pieces that deserved those stats. Sinister was full of mid point figures who could get away with having low stats.

If they were two use any set as a template for future sets I would have to say that Monsters & Mutations or Crisis would be my choice. Those were great, balanced (well, other than warbound) sets that were alot of fun to play.

[darklogos]

1. I'm not sure that generic keywords are overpowering the game, but then again the only major tournament I've been to (wondercon) ran a non-generic theme team tourney. Are scientist theme teams really kicking-butt all over the place?

2. The only power combo I have real issues with is stealth+HSS. That combo should skyrocket the price of a figure imo.

3. Escalating stats are fine if the figures are costed appropriately. Legacy, Icons and HoT had high average stats because they were full of high pointed power pieces that deserved those stats. Sinister was full of mid point figures who could get away with having low stats.

If they were two use any set as a template for future sets I would have to say that Monsters & Mutations or Crisis would be my choice. Those were great, balanced (well, other than warbound) sets that were alot of fun to play.

Its not the fact that Scientist is just running over everything automatically. It is now with the researcher that it shows me that theme map control firmly falls in the realm of scientist due to researcher. Also look at the enhancement power. It gives enhancement to any scientist. If you build a solid turret like team you can mow down anything that comes close to you. Scientist does not lack for outwit. YOu just need an Anti-Stealth cannon and its 6-7 damage being pumped out. Pick an open map like the new WOS map or the Arena and the Mystical main attackers will have major problems. You don't need tk. You just need to setup and shoot. Is this the only tactic Scientist has? No but it is a strong tactic.

The issue with Legacy is that their strength was so high by the time the balancing mechanisms kicked they tilted the meta toward them and made all new pieces look like trash because they were not viable in the meta. You could spend 200 points and get 2 ok pieces or you could put a stupid strong piece who could wipe both pieces no problem. That's a no brainer.

[frenchtbolt]

I think that you simply have to increase the rate in Generic and let the same rate for non-generic. 1 for each 50 or 75 points for generic and 1 for 150 for non generic. if you need four or six scientists to have the bonuses in 300 points games, you can't have some big guns...

[neutralmarkhot]

I thought this was going to be request for more play testing.

As a rebuttal to the OP, what is your response to generic/non-generic team playability and how it controls the meta game?

Generic armies can pull off some spamming, but they can also pull off a more well-balanced team, and have a more diverse pool of figs to choose from.

If we lose the generic themes, we might more or less go back to TA teams, or ar least see less variety in team builds at tourneys. Everyone will play Gotham City until everyone starts to play Ultimates or Avengers.

[oddjob1138]

I couldn't agree more. Especially with the generic theme team. They need to go. And personally I'd buff the non-generic theme team bonus slightly in some way.

[thekingslayer]

My thoughts:
Generic Keywords= one extra action at the beginning of each of your turns (like a free automatic leadership roll). Further leadership rolls can still be made.
Non Generic Keywords= Keep it at the current theme bonus.

This doesn't make the generic theme as strong, but, being that they are more likely a lot of smaller point figs, the extra action would help them. The non generic, would show that you are facing an experienced team that is used to working together (In general)

Maybe have it where if they have a "double" theme team where they have both the same generic and non generic keywords on all members of their team, they get both bonuses. Maybe word it so that it only works if there is no duplicated named figures, or at least Xnumber of figures with a unique name (Like the BFC Assembled was)

I believe that is self sufficient in supporting a team with many members. I like this idea.

Overall, I can not find anything to disagree with, darklogos.

[Red and Blue Rocks]

I think Nightcrawler is ridiculous for the fact even if you hurt him he's likely to heal straight back up with X men TA. JL Flash (the uncommon) is NOTHING compared to the elf.

About your police keyword statement: With additions like Lt. Marcus Stone, it won't be long before we see lots of police teams kick butt.

[darklogos]

I thought this was going to be request for more play testing.

As a rebuttal to the OP, what is your response to generic/non-generic team playability and how it controls the meta game?

Generic armies can pull off some spamming, but they can also pull off a more well-balanced team, and have a more diverse pool of figs to choose from.

If we lose the generic themes, we might more or less go back to TA teams, or ar least see less variety in team builds at tourneys. Everyone will play Gotham City until everyone starts to play Ultimates or Avengers.

Thing is theme was supposed to give comic accurate teams a more balanced field. That was the original intent presented by Seth. It was the major complaint of the community that the comic element of the game was severely missing. The point was at that time for theme team bonus to cover up for the inefficiencies of a comic accurate team thus making the field even. In all honesty it could have been a balanced mechanic if not for one or two comic lineups. But that's JLA and Avengers.

Here is the problem. When the game designers realized that a lot of people would not use the keywords on a frequent basis. Think about it. How often are people are going to use the theme team mechanic if not for generics. Yes some big line-up teams Such as JLA, and Avengers can front this mechanic. But without generics it wasn't going to get the exposer it needed.

Look at the meta before keywords. You saw only the elite pieces played with each other to form very little differing team lineup. The only thing that has changed now and then is that the keywords with the best support pieces are now the basis of the team because the support can prop up a decent attacker and make them awesome. The problem is that all the elements of min-max are now in generic theme. This just forces a different type of min-max. You find out that the team made with generic keywords may have some setbacks. But those setbacks are overshadowed by theme team status. Now they exceed the efficiency of a min-maxed non-theme team.

If we loose generics we will go back to pure min-max teams. No doubt. Keywords will serve the purpose of bringing comic book accurate teams to the spotlight and we may be surprised what sacrifices and creativity would have to show up with the lineups. Worse thing that could happen is that Comic accurate teams disappear from the meta altogether.

[Owlman]

I agree with about 90% of what was said in the original post. I would love to see these changes made.

[oddjob1138]

Thing is theme was supposed to give comic accurate teams a more balanced field. That was the original intent presented by Seth. It was the major complaint of the community that the comic element of the game was severely missing. The point was at that time for theme team bonus to cover up for the inefficiencies of a comic accurate team thus making the field even. In all honesty it could have been a balanced mechanic if not for one or two comic lineups. But that's JLA and Avengers.

Here is the problem. When the game designers realized that a lot of people would not use the keywords on a frequent basis. Think about it. How often are people are going to use the theme team mechanic if not for generics. Yes some big line-up teams Such as JLA, and Avengers can front this mechanic. But without generics it wasn't going to get the exposer it needed.

Look at the meta before keywords. You saw only the elite pieces played with each other to form very little differing team lineup. The only thing that has changed now and then is that the keywords with the best support pieces are now the basis of the team because the support can prop up a decent attacker and make them awesome. The problem is that all the elements of min-max are now in generic theme. This just forces a different type of min-max. You find out that the team made with generic keywords may have some setbacks. But those setbacks are overshadowed by theme team status. Now they exceed the efficiency of a min-maxed non-theme team.

If we loose generics we will go back to pure min-max teams. No doubt. Keywords will serve the purpose of bringing comic book accurate teams to the spotlight and we may be surprised what sacrifices and creativity would have to show up with the lineups. Worse thing that could happen is that Comic accurate teams disappear from the meta altogether.

I disagree. Non-generic themed teams suffer the same now as it would in the picture you paint. Because the viabilty of non-generic theme teams in the meta game is the same with or without generic theme teams. They have a much more limited available roster than any non theme or generic team. So get rid of the advantage of the generic teams. And boost the non to keep them in the game.

[darklogos]

I disagree. Non-generic themed teams suffer the same now as it would in the picture you paint. Because the viabilty of non-generic theme teams in the meta game is the same with or without generic theme teams. They have a much more limited available roster than any non theme or generic team. So get rid of the advantage of the generic teams. And boost the non to keep them in the game.

I think that is a good idea. Like I said there are only 2 rosters right now that break that and its JLA and Avengers.

Thing is the comic accurate teams need the lifeblood not the generic. How that is done that is another issue. That is why I was clear in my opening post that Generic Keywords need to be rethought out.

Thing is for one to truly balance everything out we need to figure out what Comic accurate keyword teams need in the current meta. We have a 3 way team construction balance that needs to occur of non-theme, Generic Keyword, and Comic Keyword.

[Nightwing-fan]

I agree with the OP. Right now generics with all their bonus's are slowly ruining the tourney scene at my venue. We have had a few arguements at our venue concerning the cheesy teams that they generics bring and a few players have walked out.

We had an event at our venue a few weeks ago and the guy didnt make a theme team, but he used 5 generics with prob, enhancement, perplex and the PD TA. Along with two of the newest "tanks" in the game. Dr. Manhatten and Cosmic Spiderman. He had the little guys boxed up in a building and had Dr. Manhatten block the entrance. Every turn he raised his defense 3 and his damage 3. The building had another one close enough so no one could cleanly shoot it at a range. Anyone coming close got Blasted by Cosmic Spidey. When he did come out it seemed like every attack he made he only needed a 2 or a 3 to hit.

I know this sounds more like a battle report, but it seems like every week the same player shows up with a cheesy army build arround 1 or 2 attacks and the rest is cheap supporting figs. If not a tank then its a theme cheesy team that has like 4 barrier figures on it.

Last week was another team similar to that one. He had Cosmic Spiderman, 2-DEO agents, 1-Con Artist, 6-Alicia Masters Pogs and an Alfred Pennyworth pog.

About your posts, I totally agree about the JLA and Avengers theme team members. I've been griping about how they have been messed up since the keyword list have come out.

The way some of the numbers are going up, like the defenses you mentioned. Its to a point were if a older player tried to return to play a few times. Everything he owns is obsolete and he is forced to either commit a huge amount of money to buy new figures or just give up and quit altogether.

I can see a team of generic figs each under 40 points can take out Silver Surfer, Thor, Hulk, Superman or any of the powerhouses by themselves. They should not have that much power.

Maybe they should take out the theme bonus for any generic team. If not that, then make it harder to field a generic theme team. One for every 25 or 50 points, and also not allowing pogs to could toward any bonus. I also would love to see pogs being limited to one per named character, going with the highlander rule for named figures also being applied to "named pogs". If its a generic name like Professor or Newsboy or Policeman or something like that then I can see more than one being on the board.

[thetigerking83]

I have two main complaints.

High defenses: This makes games take longer, makes them more frustrating and random, and worst of all it drastically hurts older figures that lack high defenses.

Damage reducers and outwit: I feel damage reducers aren't as good as they used to be and aren't really worth the cost anymore. Outwit has become even more important and powerful with special powers to counter. I would like to see a change that damage reducers cannot be countered. Exploit weakness and psychic blast cover this well enough considering todays steady damage and attack values. I don't expect people to agree but that's how I feel on it.

Keywords and special tactics aren't as big for me since I'm a much more casual gamer, but I agree that it would be an issue for others.

[darklogos]

I agree with the OP. Right now generics with all their bonus's are slowly ruining the tourney scene at my venue. We have had a few arguements at our venue concerning the cheesy teams that they generics bring and a few players have walked out.

We had an event at our venue a few weeks ago and the guy didnt make a theme team, but he used 5 generics with prob, enhancement, perplex and the PD TA. Along with two of the newest "tanks" in the game. Dr. Manhatten and Cosmic Spiderman. He had the little guys boxed up in a building and had Dr. Manhatten block the entrance. Every turn he raised his defense 3 and his damage 3. The building had another one close enough so no one could cleanly shoot it at a range. Anyone coming close got Blasted by Cosmic Spidey. When he did come out it seemed like every attack he made he only needed a 2 or a 3 to hit.

I know this sounds more like a battle report, but it seems like every week the same player shows up with a cheesy army build arround 1 or 2 attacks and the rest is cheap supporting figs. If not a tank then its a theme cheesy team that has like 4 barrier figures on it.

Last week was another team similar to that one. He had Cosmic Spiderman, 2-DEO agents, 1-Con Artist, 6-Alicia Masters Pogs and an Alfred Pennyworth pog.

About your posts, I totally agree about the JLA and Avengers theme team members. I've been griping about how they have been messed up since the keyword list have come out.

The way some of the numbers are going up, like the defenses you mentioned. Its to a point were if a older player tried to return to play a few times. Everything he owns is obsolete and he is forced to either commit a huge amount of money to buy new figures or just give up and quit altogether.

I can see a team of generic figs each under 40 points can take out Silver Surfer, Thor, Hulk, Superman or any of the powerhouses by themselves. They should not have that much power.

Maybe they should take out the theme bonus for any generic team. If not that, then make it harder to field a generic theme team. One for every 25 or 50 points, and also not allowing pogs to could toward any bonus. I also would love to see pogs being limited to one per named character, going with the highlander rule for named figures also being applied to "named pogs". If its a generic name like Professor or Newsboy or Policeman or something like that then I can see more than one being on the board.

Play modern age games at 300 points. Its not impossible to cheese but its harder. Older support makes tent pole teams super easy. Its one of the reasons I hate to see things like the nurse and Researcher.

I'm almost at the point of saying UtraDrgN was right by saying outwit should lower your defense standard by 1 tier. But I'm not quite there yet. Outwit has proven to be to cheap and to easy to field.

[Prof. Aragorn]

I agree 100% with darklogos.

Remember Sinister where a 17 was hard to hit and slightly above average with 18s Really good and 19s unheard of?

Then comes Crisis, and Arkham, Mutations and Monsters, Secret Invasion - turns out 17 is just average.

Now with Hammer of Thor, Web of Spider-Man and Brave and the Bold, 17 is almost passe. 18s and 19s are now the new average/awesome.

[Puuka]

I agree 100% with darklogos.

Remember Sinister where a 17 was hard to hit and slightly above average with 18s Really good and 19s unheard of?

Then comes Crisis, and Arkham, Mutations and Monsters, Secret Invasion - turns out 17 is just average.

Now with Hammer of Thor, Web of Spider-Man and Brave and the Bold, 17 is almost passe. 18s and 19s are now the new average/awesome.

18 and higher Def by set (Not counting colossi)
IC=18
CT=10
CJ=1
CM=3
Unl=3
CoH/V=1
Leg=7
FF=3
Ico=3
AW=10
CD=11
Giants=1
Sin=4
GlC=4
SN=18
DoFP=1
2099=3
Or=23
LosH=3
Av=13
JL=20
M&M=22
Cri=28
SI=22
AA=14
HoT=30
B&B=25
BN=3
WoS=19


In total, there are 10 figures with a Def of 20, 2 being the most figures in any set with it.
35 of them had a 19 def.

[c-jyd]

On point #1, I definitely agree. I'd very much like to see the point of keywords being focused as much as possible on encouraging comic-accurate teams. I'd even be ok with the benefits for non-generic keywords being increased. I'm alright with some benefit for generic keyword teams, since it is more restrictive than having no limit, but it should be more limited.

Combos of powers definitely need to be considered. For the most part I /really/ like the special powers we're seeing. Having them adds more options to the game and lets some figures really be more accurately represented. Some of them are overcosted - self-perplex doesn't seem to be much of a break from perplex, for example. The Stealth+HSS combo should definitely cost more though, or not be used. The combo immediately takes the figures who have it to being borderline broken.
For this, really, I'd just say more playtesting is probably needed with figures using combinations of powers.

For the last - I have to disagree, actually. HoT had a lot of figures who were high cost, and should be high cost, and tough to take down. They should have the numbers that go with those costs.
I don't mind the increases to defense either. As we saw with, say, KC Green Lantern, a high defense by itself can be a viable defense. Those types of figures being more common forces people to make decisions in their team-building. One type of team won't necessarily dominate every other type. Sure, your poison figure might not be much good against the team with 16-17 DV and damage reducers, but could be gold against Nightcrawler. Psychic Blast is great for getting past the impervious tentpoles, but are they as good at sharpshooting? Swarm teams have usually beaten tentpoles by sheer virtue of out-actioning them. With some of the newer figures, I've seen viable tentpole teams of greater variety hold their own against swarms. They still got out-actioned, but the swarm team had to either get lucky hits, or really think about their TA bonuses to try and get that first hit or two in. On the other hand, an early lucky hit or the like has also decimated some of those tentpole teams.
I'm all for a 2-3 figure 300 or even 400 point team playing like its worth 300 or 400 points against larger teams.

What I do hate is seeing the same team with the same tactic week after week winning all the games. I always like seeing those figures who are tough to get to for some reason different than before and force people to have more variable teams. What will get past KC GL isn't as effective against Ares, and Nightcrawler is yet a different problem.

I would much rather have sets that look like the last couple than the early sets with numbers falling off to useless rapidly.

[MattMinus]

Play modern age games at 300 points. Its not impossible to cheese but its harder. Older support makes tent pole teams super easy. Its one of the reasons I hate to see things like the nurse and Researcher.

I'm almost at the point of saying UtraDrgN was right by saying outwit should lower your defense standard by 1 tier. But I'm not quite there yet. Outwit has proven to be to cheap and to easy to field.

I do agree that it sounds like the problem is with the format rather than the rules. If you want to be able to use the older stuff and lots of it, add rules like "no figs over 300 points". The more open your format is, the more open to abuse it is.

Where is this cheap outwit I keep hearing about? I think Checkmate White Kight, Quentin Turnbull, and Bruce Wayne are the cheapest legal outwitters, running from 29 - 48. 2 of them don't have front loaded outwit. They're all one-shottable. It seems pretty balanced to me. Any of these figures represent a not insignificant percentage of your team build.

[hair10]

Play modern age games at 300 points.

I hate hate hate answers like this. Does anyone enjoy 300 point restricted format over and over again? It's the same line that the pro-BenCrawler folk have... "he's not bad in 300 point modern age". Ugh.

I've more than a couple thousand figs. I like to be able to vary what I play and playing 300 point restricted games don't allow for that.

"Play 300 point modern age" isn't a viable answer for anything IMO.

[sol]

I hate hate hate answers like this. Does anyone enjoy 300 point restricted format over and over again? It's the same line that the pro-BenCrawler folk have... "he's not bad in 300 point modern age". Ugh.

I've more than a couple thousand figs. I like to be able to vary what I play and playing 300 point restricted games don't allow for that.

"Play 300 point modern age" isn't a viable answer for anything IMO.

At a recent tournament Norm stated (somewhat rudely IMO) that the game isn't tested above 300pts when discussing the viability of CSM in sealed (or period, i guess). I think something like that made it to the realms, and now, that's the default thing everybody wants to say...:cheeky:

[csi]

18 and higher Def by set (Not counting colossi)
IC=18
CT=10
CJ=1
CM=3
Unl=3
CoH/V=1
Leg=7
FF=3
Ico=3
AW=10
CD=11
Giants=1
Sin=4
GlC=4
SN=18
DoFP=1
2099=3
Or=23
LosH=3
Av=13
JL=20
M&M=22
Cri=28
SI=22
AA=14
HoT=30
B&B=25
BN=3
WoS=19


In total, there are 10 figures with a Def of 20, 2 being the most figures in any set with it.
35 of them had a 19 def.

if you divide those numbers by the number of figures in the sets your percentages would show an even greater increase over the last few sets.

[MangaFox]

I would have loved it if keywords were non-generic from the get go, but I'm not sure that drastic changes to the mechanic are viable at this point in the game (drastic meaning changes like getting rid of non-generic theme teams altogether) as it's too deeply vested now.

Also, when we talk about differentiating between generic and non-generic keywords how would this officially be done? A list?

I think ultimately all we can hope for is that they start phasing out most, if not all, of the generic keywords like they did with mutant. Things like scientist, mystical, soldier, spy and teen are probably a bit too broad, much like mutant was, so maybe the same case could be made. However, a change like this would take a couple of sets before having an impact.

[hair10]

At a recent tournament Norm stated (somewhat rudely IMO) that the game isn't tested above 300pts when discussing the viability of CSM in sealed (or period, i guess).
Back when I was RA and involved in playtesting, 300 point was the default but we certainly looked at how a fig performed at higher levels.

In the beginning of Seth's tenure, he often wanted to use a similar 'excuse' when it came to rulings of feats/BFC and the like. Basically, "we don't support unrestricted so there's no need to make a ruling on it". More than once I remember telling him (in my always oh-so tactful ways) that it was a bunch of bunk. WK was putting unrestricted tourneys on the docket so those questions needed to be answered.

I feel the same about the "300 point modern age format" lame ### excuse too.

[Hellboy]

Reasonable OP

I sign your petition.

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[JDKenada]

if you divide those numbers by the number of figures in the sets your percentages would show an even greater increase over the last few sets.

More importantly, is that I'd prefer to know how many clicks per figure per set have those values. Sure, there were 18 in the old days, but after two clicks of damage, they'd be closer to 13. Now...there's some figures where their dial never drops below 16.

To the original post, this was very well put. You hit several points, all of which I concur on, and you did it in an intelligent manner (often unheard of in the interwebz).

[tyroclix]

Regarding generic keywords, I'll disagree that they should be removed. They can be quite valuable in both scenarios, feats, and ATA's (among other things). I love them.

I think the whole Theme Team bonus should be rethought for all keywords.

Probability Control in a dice game is just too powerful. Gaining an extra action per 4 figures, I think, could be a better use of this mechanic.

A team of 16 SHIELD Troopers could certainly benefit from more than 3 actions and would promote the use of that team.

The + to map roll is a good thing to keep and the cancellation of a BFC remains useful, but the Probability Control was always awful and more so now that the odds of successfully hitting anything continues to go down.

[NeoShazam]

1.Generic Keywords overpowering nature in the game.

Kinda agree. The problem is the team keywords are already limited in characters and the average character cost seems to keep going up so its hard to fit certain teams at certain point levels. Different levels of bonuses for generic or comic theme teams would be neat. Also agree that continuing to release generics such as Nurse and Scientist is lame.


2. Over powering special powers that are overpowered due to low point cost.

Agreed. Originally there was the "no feats could be used with special powers fulfilling the pre-reqs. Also agree on the HSS/Stealth, compare Ms. Skrullvel's 168 to Batman TA Superman's 211.


3. The increase in statistical power creep. (purely the numbers)

Agreed. Bullseye , Nightcrawler , Black Cat , Wolfsbane , Ben Reilly are tough to hit and quite affordable. Also add Amazon and Asguardian Warrior. Shaz/dam is good but 6 clicks can go quick ( particularly around a shield disruptor ) , and he isn't really pushable so I don't see them as much of a problem.


The game is just getting back into full swing. I know it seems tempting to flood the market with a bunch of very powerful pieces to drive sales. But just like before it will back-fire. People will leave the game. People will complain about opening salvos and HSS+Range+4+ damage is default mechanic to lean towards. Making hard counter pieces will eventually frustrate people and will prove not to be effective in the long vision of the game. I'm not going to add in a pander for a job, nor to be a play tester or rules person. Those things are in place but it seems that Game Development needs to really sit back and think like a min-maxer and realize the effect that mentality will have on the game.

Thanks for reading and hopefully we can have some sound dialogue on this.

Agree as well. Great point here.

[darklogos]

I hate hate hate answers like this. Does anyone enjoy 300 point restricted format over and over again? It's the same line that the pro-BenCrawler folk have... "he's not bad in 300 point modern age". Ugh.

I've more than a couple thousand figs. I like to be able to vary what I play and playing 300 point restricted games don't allow for that.

"Play 300 point modern age" isn't a viable answer for anything IMO.

I've talked about NC to the point of being tired when it comes to his execution. I'll deal with everything else.

The thing is you either create a ban list or you make it so you have scenarios where those old support figures are crap. If you play Golden age then you have to deal with all the stuff that comes out of the woodwork.
The way the other poster sounded it seem like they played unrestricted every week.

I would really look at the scenario end because its more fun and it causes people to think differently. It does create new cheese pieces mind you not just the same old ones.

[darklogos]

Also, when we talk about differentiating between generic and non-generic keywords how would this officially be done? A list?



Actually right now we know that a generic keyword is a keyword that doesn't deal with a comic book team or lineup. For example, warriors 3 is not the same as warrior. Teen and Teen Titans are not the same. We know if it is an occupation, skill-set, or mindset instead of a title (ruler excluded) then its a generic keyword.

[T. Paul Stiles]

Psst Darklogos... You forgot to ask for a Modern Age Hellboy...

[Neff]

Although I agree with the OP's plea for sensible game design, I will say this:

You can have my scientist theme teams when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

[WakandaMan]

Totally agree, especially about generic keywords and the power creep.

At least drop the Teen, Future, Past, Mystical and Cosmic keywords. Those ones are far too broad and apply to far too many comic book characters. Probably Martial Artist as well.

Phasing out keywords a la 'Mutants' would be great. Start with Teen please.

Also, the ridiculous number of 18 and 19 DV is getting beyond a joke.

[T. Paul Stiles]

Although I agree with the OP's plea for sensible game design, I will say this:

You can have my scientist theme teams when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

What is this fabled Scientist team you speak of?

At least drop the Teen, Future, Past, Mystical and Cosmic keywords. Those ones are far too broad and apply to far too many comic book characters. Probably Martial Artist as well.

Phasing out keywords a la 'Mutants' would be great. Start with Teen please.

What? Dost mine ears deceive me? Mustical? How else am I supposed to make Hellboy effective?

[herohunter]

I agree with what Darklogos pointed and specified in this post but I wish they will do the adjustments after the DC 75th Anniversary Set, that is if Wizkids/NECA is going to listen to Darklogos' points and suggestions.

[hair10]

Although I agree with the OP's plea for sensible game design, I will say this:

You can have my scientist theme teams when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

*BLAM!!*


Now then, on to the next point of discussion...

[darklogos]

I would say that a generic theme team should get just plus 2 to roll and lose prob control. For the trade off of and additional action for every 1 unit for every 150pts. This will allow a 300 pt swarm team work a lot better while keeping the average team on par with min-max non theme.

For Comic theme I think a change would be 1 prob per game but getting a +1 attack being adjacent to team member with the keyword max +1 attack. Have it work like a permanent assembled bfc without the name limitation on your team.

[Owlman]

Although I agree with the OP's plea for sensible game design, I will say this:

You can have my scientist theme teams when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

Your proposal is acceptable.

[oddjob1138]

For Comic theme I think a change would be 1 prob per game but getting a +1 attack being adjacent to team member with the keyword max +1 attack. Have it work like a permanent assembled bfc without the name limitation on your team.

THIS I like. Give comic theme teams the Assembled bonus permanently. Take the prob control from generic theme teams. No other changes necessary.

[thekingslayer]

I would say that a generic theme team should get just plus 2 to roll and lose prob control. For the trade off of and additional action for every 1 unit for every 150pts. This will allow a 300 pt swarm team work a lot better while keeping the average team on par with min-max non theme.

For Comic theme I think a change would be 1 prob per game but getting a +1 attack being adjacent to team member with the keyword max +1 attack. Have it work like a permanent assembled bfc without the name limitation on your team.

I like this.

I think damage reducers are too expensive for what you get- which is often nothing. As for the power of Outwit against damage reducers, I think it would be suiting to have a tier system for damage reducers. Example, if your opponent uses outwit against your Juggernaut's impervious, it becomes invulnerability. If he then outwits his defense again, it then becomes toughness. If he has a third outwitter and chooses to use that outwit on Juggernaut's damage reducing power again, then he finally has removed all armor from Juggernaut.

[WakandaMan]

I must admit there are a handful of generic keywords I enjoy using. 'Animal' is a regular for me, and is the only way to do 'Pet Avengers' and other fun teams. Police is a great one too, and Soldier can be good for WWII teams (although this one has been too broadly applied really).

But the really broad keywords are a waste of time.

[invisibo]

assuming that something was done (and now that there's a thread on the subject, they won't out of spite, like so many other things), doesn't this just mean avengers, JLA, and Gotham move up to the top (depending on the next few sets, Thunderbolts may be aces too). Is this necessarily better? is it more fun?

On an aside, I do think the change to the 60 figure set has made theme teams more controlled by the game designers, as the REV system allowed far more viability of some theme teams based on the ability to have the same figure with similar keywords available at various point costs.

[darklogos]

assuming that something was done (and now that there's a thread on the subject, they won't out of spite, like so many other things), doesn't this just mean avengers, JLA, and Gotham move up to the top (depending on the next few sets, Thunderbolts may be aces too). Is this necessarily better? is it more fun?

On an aside, I do think the change to the 60 figure set has made theme teams more controlled by the game designers, as the REV system allowed far more viability of some theme teams based on the ability to have the same figure with similar keywords available at various point costs.

If it happened right now then yes Avengers and JLA would be really strong. If it happened at next retirement then no everything would be fine.

[Faster Than Flash]

I would like to add three more points to the OP.

4. Team abilities. Please remake/fix the ones that plain suck (I am talking specifically about every team ability which says something along the lines of "give him an action, this does not count towards your total actions for the turn"). And please price them accordingly. - While you're at it, please adjust leadership. It would be nice for it to do something more than give me one more action.

5. Front Dial Ownage - This topic covers the Shazam/Black Adam, the Ms Marvel and most other power figures. The problem is that a lot of figures are front loaded. They have all these great powers right up front with awesome stats. The problem arises when that one figure never leaves click #1. Ms Marvel is toast after being hit for just a few clicks, same with shazam. But hitting them, before they own you, is another story. Just tone down that first click for me. You can give them all the powers and stuff, even longer dials, but I can't even touch some figures.

6. 8's and 9's. When I play, I don't touch a piece unless the defense is and 17 with a defensive power, or 18+. The same goes for attack, it's 10+. This is on the starting click of course. Stop giving me figures with 8 and 9 attack values. When their starting attack value is an 8 or 9, it's only downhill from there. And with the front loaded dial problem, you will never hit some pieces. I had this sad sad problem with power girl. She has 10 attack, 17 def with imperv, I thought she was a winner. 1 outwit and 1 hit later, she was down to 9 attack - desperately trying to hit an 18 defense (they didn't even use perplex on their defense and i needed to roll a 9). She got hit again, and went to an 8. Forget it! At 199 pts... I expect some power.

/rant

[Puuka]

I would like to add three more points to the OP.

4. Team abilities. Please remake/fix the ones that plain suck (I am talking specifically about every team ability which says something along the lines of "give him an action, this does not count towards your total actions for the turn"). And please price them accordingly. - While you're at it, please adjust leadership. It would be nice for it to do something more than give me one more action.

5. Front Dial Ownage - This topic covers the Shazam/Black Adam, the Ms Marvel and most other power figures. The problem is that a lot of figures are front loaded. They have all these great powers right up front with awesome stats. The problem arises when that one figure never leaves click #1. Ms Marvel is toast after being hit for just a few clicks, same with shazam. But hitting them, before they own you, is another story. Just tone down that first click for me. You can give them all the powers and stuff, even longer dials, but I can't even touch some figures.

6. 8's and 9's. When I play, I don't touch a piece unless the defense is and 17 with a defensive power, or 18+. The same goes for attack, it's 10+. This is on the starting click of course. Stop giving me figures with 8 and 9 attack values. When their starting attack value is an 8 or 9, it's only downhill from there. And with the front loaded dial problem, you will never hit some pieces. I had this sad sad problem with power girl. She has 10 attack, 17 def with imperv, I thought she was a winner. 1 outwit and 1 hit later, she was down to 9 attack - desperately trying to hit an 18 defense (they didn't even use perplex on their defense and i needed to roll a 9). She got hit again, and went to an 8. Forget it! At 199 pts... I expect some power.

/rant

Oh, and I want a pony.

[thekingslayer]

I like this.

I think damage reducers are too expensive for what you get- which is often nothing. As for the power of Outwit against damage reducers, I think it would be suiting to have a tier system for damage reducers. Example: if your opponent uses outwit against your Juggernaut's impervious, it becomes invulnerability. If he then outwits his defense again, it then becomes toughness. If he has a third outwitter and chooses to use that outwit on Juggernaut's damage reducing power again, then he finally has removed all armor from Juggernaut.

Erhem. Cough!

[Puuka]

4. Team abilities. Please remake/fix the ones that plain suck (I am talking specifically about every team ability which says something along the lines of "give him an action, this does not count towards your total actions for the turn"). And please price them accordingly. - While you're at it, please adjust leadership. It would be nice for it to do something more than give me one more action.

The only team ability that I can think of that isn't that great is the Injustice League.

I personally liked it back when it could have been interpreted to allow a ranged combat attack in adjacency (Like Sharpshooter)
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=262020&highlight=Injustice+League

The reason I liked this is a number of the more powerful IL members have Psi Blast, RCE, or Pulse Wave. It's also a nice way to work around ESD or Combat Reflexes in a close combat situation. Considering two of their strongest hitters are a psychic gorilla and a highly adaptive robot, I think they deserve it.

[darklogos]

Pulled this up to show my mom. Just noticed just about everything I pointed out got addressed. Thanks Wizkids!

[Renard]

1. Martial Artist is no.1 generic keyword. Scarlet Witch is retired now.

2. a) Stealth + HSS is on what, two figs? One broken (NC) and one that's hard to theme or be flat-out unstoppable (Ms. Marvel). Plus Ms. Marvel WK admitted they costed her without Indomitable.

b) Stealth busters like Dr. Strange, Green Lantern SR, and Bullseye or other ranged Tbolts have to exist simply because there are only a few Superman Ally figs at any given Modern time (and the ones that are Modern are fair at best now), and Ultimates TA seems to have been KO'd ever since Jeph Loeb KO'd the Ultimates series. Plus stealthbusters sort out the a) problem. Skrull Kill Krew no one plays BFCs anyway, and Clark Kent is appropriately costed for being easy to KO and he has to power action his sp. Bullseye is good for his points, and so is HoT Cap. Neither are broken. For every 2 figs that are good for their points, there are 5 that are fair and 13 that are poor to bad. Bullseye and Cap aren't gamebusters like NC, they are efficient. Bullseye has to exist because he is the only fig who can reliably ruin NC in one shot.
Doppelganger is good but is costed appropriately. He has no move and attack, and he's not indomitable. He's very shootable, and will always be a priority target before he gets in close. Just shoot his TK, problem solved.
Super perplex costs a ton for the figs that have it. Look at the new LE Wonder Woman, she's terrible for 190 pts, and she only has weak super perplex. The only sure thing you want to perplex on Amazons is damage.

3. Not counting colossal or giants (300 Modern), there are 8 figs (<300) with an upfront 19 defense which is all that matters. There are only two true really good figs in 300 with 19 upfront in that pool, NC (19 + hss/stealth + shapechange + super super senses + kid flash movement) and Molly Hayes (cheap).
This is nowhere near a problem except for the most obvious broken fig in the game today. In the old days, there were outright 20 defenses on power pieces like KC Flash and KC Green Lantern, and there was a lot more abusable high defense like Yellowjacket Tbolt sharing his 20 defense and Sue Storm with her 19.
You can argue power creep but I'd argue better balance. It's not like the old days where there were only a few competitive top pieces at any time; now there are quite a few. Honestly if NC was removed as a tournament playable piece (one can still hope), this would be the most balanced era of Heroclix. The most broken aspect of today's game isn't even about numbers, it's about abusing the mechanics of the game (mainly through SPs and/or traits, or 5x PC for example (smart, not broken), or SIF (was broken, dirty outright cheating the game)).
I'm more concerned these days about figs being given shorter dials with big point costs.
Yes SPs and traits are hard to cost, and even worse when the GD doesn't anticipate for example how Cypher could be broken if he could steal enemy Tbolts and then turn around and decide to Tbolt his whole team to Mystics (the rules people are still debating this Cypher issue). But SPs and traits are the single best thing to happen to Heroclix since BFCs and Feats were done away with, they make the figs much more comics accurate and fun to play.

[Renard]

I know this sounds more like a battle report, but it seems like every week the same player shows up with a cheesy army build arround 1 or 2 attacks and the rest is cheap supporting figs. If not a tank then its a theme cheesy team that has like 4 barrier figures on it.


How is this different than at any other time in Heroclix history? And that's not even counting mechanics-broken teams (SIF, LAMP, etc.)...

[thanosstar]

rep to the op...agree on all points

[Quip]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it would solve a lot of it if you took away theme team bonuses for any team with multiples of non-generic figures.

This way, you can still break the Highlander rule, but you don't get rewarded for it. Any special circumstances can be decided by your judge.

[theavengerthor]

I've mentioned this before, but I think it would solve a lot of it if you took away theme team bonuses for any team with multiples of non-generic figures.

This way, you can still break the Highlander rule, but you don't get rewarded for it. Any special circumstances can be decided by your judge.

That would be too hard to enforce, leaving things too difficult to rule on and left completely up to interpretation. It would be fine for a house rule, but has no place in competitive play.

[DKJedi]

I think that generic keywords should get no bonus at all. Still put them on characters so that players and judges can use them for special tourneys or other things but you don't get any bonus from building a team with them.

[darklogos]

I'm working on a way to hinder nightcrawler. Everyone is working the problem backward which is to hinder nightcrawler instead of looking at the rest of the equation.

[lancelot]

I'm working on a way to hinder nightcrawler. Everyone is working the problem backward which is to hinder nightcrawler instead of looking at the rest of the equation.

Give NC the freakin' ban hammer. Just the WoS NC. I'd love to see the CT NC come back into vogue. Hell, even the FF NC set was great.

I'd have to say, after last night, the generic keyword as a theme team on the whole has totally been reined in. The bonuses a non-generic team gets in terms of PC is just insane that it tends to lead oneself to lean towards building a non-generic team.