Xplosion Observations

[Manchine]

Some things that seem to be prevailing in Xplosion.

Is there a lot of Perplex in this Set?
There's more perplex it seems in this set then even in DC. Does it seem like this to everyone else or am I just loosing it?

Doesn't it seem to be as much Invulnerability?
At least compared to CT. What R/E/V's are there? Abonimation, Colossus, and Doc Samson. Uniques we dont know yet. Hulk of course maybe Mr. Sinsister.

What about Echelon Theory?
Is each set gonna be better then the last? Some people think this and a lot of games can have this happen. Do you think this is happening here?

[Painreliever]

There is a ton of perplex in this set...I think it will be the next big cheapness...when you can have a perplex for 11 points, Exp and Vet whirlwind are going to become power pack punchers. On the other side of things the abundance of perplex means your average joe middle class figure has a chance to hit and damage those Thors and Dr Dooms

I have been typing stats all night and I think compared to Clobbering time at first glance it seems to be less, but it may not be less just more spread around...can't think of a single fig with Invul for 4 clicks from the stats I have seen so far...

I don't think this is a set that will blow away all the other figs in other sets...there is a lot of variation. a lot of playability...and you'll find defenses on the whole are more DC esque than Clobberin Time or IC. I think the Strong figs here are appropriately strong for appropriate value...the mid figs have good range of abilities for the price...and some of the cheap figs are downright steals...There aren't any large additions to overpowering teams...Like Minions of Doom or Spiderman teams... I think this set will play very well...I can't wait to test it out and get them all!

[Xavier PhD]

so far i'd have to say

xplosion>>CT>>>>>>>IC

so i guess every set is going to get better... but hopefully it will plateau.


but look at it this way, if every set didn't have some kind of advantage over the new set, then they probably wouldn't sell as many new figures.... and that sucks because maybe 3-4 sets from now (if that many actually come out) IC will be obsolete.

[faricelli]

I agree. The problem is that the designers are feeling the heat from the gamers. They are trying to make up from their past mistakes without actually admiting them. Websites like this supply a lot of input in character design. At least I hope. I am not an avid comic book reader, but I do hear and read the discussions about figs that should have or should not have certain powers. Hopefully the designers are hearing this as well. I think the figs will progressively get better,meaning more comic book like or true to their abilities. So does this mean the game will change for the worst? I do not know, but look what happened to MTG. I hope that with the new additions, figs previously on playable will become more usable.

[AshenFang]

I'm overall happy with it.

And yes, there does seem to be a lot of perplex, but that comes with the figures they choose for the set I suppose.

For me, Xplosion finishes up my favourite team. (Well, the core group at least.) Which is Freedom Force,(As per my tag.) with Destiny and Mystque. And I'm really happy with Destiny.

Got the addition of Sauron, even though he's not Brotherhood, happy to see him.

Apart from me, a lot of favorites of other people have snuck their way in. The Spidie/Hulk/Wolverine fans of course got their fig.

Then there's Iron Man, not only a big fig in his own right, but also a high standing member within the Avengers.

Gambit(Though I don't like him myself.) a lot of people do like. He's a pretty popular character, and he made it in.

Apocalypse, a big enemy to the X Boy sand girls. Popular at that, and has been wanted for some time..

With the low cost figures like Con Artist, and Parametic, this seems to be a nice set overall.. ..like I said, I'm happy with it.:D

[Drashia]

Apocalypse vs Sauron, the match that should never be....


Sauron, hands down....

[Eric Qel-Droma]

I hate for my first post on this expansion to be a complaint, but WTF is up with Scorpion? ONE damage for most of his dial? This guy is significantly stronger than Spider-Man! Maybe give him some low attack values, but JEEZ, give the guy 2 damage most of the way down (if not all)!

Eric

[LuckyJ]

A good friend once told me that negative opinions are accepted more graciously if you preface them with three positive opinions. Let's see if it works.

Positive:

1) Characters' stats and powers seem to be very true for the most part and represent the characters well.

2) Some of the sculpts I've seen so far are just killer, like Iceman, Storm, Hulk, etc.

3) I'm happy that Wizkids has generally toned down the extremes of the stats and found better more game-friendly ways to represent major characters. Good job, guys!

Negative:

1) I risk life and limb saying this, but I think it's worth it. The characters seem to be undercosted. Flat out too cheap. I'll show you what I mean; bear with me, please and hear me out.

1) V Storm has very strong stats for her 51 points.
2) Sauron has a ridiculously powerful dial for a paltry 77 points.
3) Shadowcat has a 17 defense and Supersenses and Phasing for 33 points and under.
4) BCF and Stealth is found on a 17-point generic.
5) Prob control has dropped to the 20 point level.
6) Crimson Dynamo does 4-5 damage for 6 clix of a 9 clik dial weighing in at just 2 points more than Ultron
7) Mandarin, for almost 20 points less than Darkseid, is incredibly much better with higher defense (by 3 points at range), range that's 150% of Darkseid's, and the all-important flight for the 4-damage RCE clix.

Just my opinion. Anyone agree?

[EVIL CAP]

There doesnt look to be alot of super strong heavy hitter types in this set but it looks like there will be ALOT of great support figures especially with figures like Psylocke [the first cheap Enhancement figure] Mystique [a stealthed Perplexer not much more expensive than Harely] and Shadowcat a cheap phasing taxi with a better move than Dr.Strange

To think i actually got worried about the Con artist figure being an overly cheap perplexer but being forced to push them to those clicks makes a world of difference.Expect them to join Hawk Dove Colossus and Hulk as the recipiants of many a pulse wave

[The Stinger]

I think that the perplex was needed badly. Heck, the cheapest perplexer for Marvel I think was doc ock.

Iceman's stats are a little disappointing, but the sculp is killer.

With a modified dial on one of my extras, he will be a staple for my X-men teams around here.

[Xavier PhD]

Originally posted by LuckyJ



Negative:

1) I risk life and limb saying this, but I think it's worth it. The characters seem to be undercosted. Flat out too cheap. I'll show you what I mean; bear with me, please and hear me out.



actually i think lots of them are not undercosted... the main thing about a lot of these figures (elektra, mandarin) is while they are powerful they have glass jaws... a few good hits and they go down fast because they have no toughness and invuln.

also the attack values for power houses like samson, abom, crimson, mand, are all below 12 and ironman looks to have a low attack too. but when the cheap perplex that this set brings will fix that.

beast is 80 points but only 9 attack, colossus has about the same.

[WarHULK]

You know what? I'm pretty impressed with this set. Nice sculpts for alot of characters, new things still being done with figures.

I was going to complain about Apocolypse when I saw how low his Defense stays but then I looked at his dial again.. His stats really stay pretty reliable all the way though. Other than his less than stellar defense his lowest attack is an 8 which isn't bad at all. He'll get banged up alot, get phasing, rush to a medic and come back with more solid stats over and over again. He'll need a fair amount of support but I think it'll be fun to play him, and look at his sculpt!! The nice thing about him is that he was kept inexpensive enough to possibly use in a 200 point team and definately in a 300 + team. I think he'll be the most effective in the indoor maps so he can phase so he doesn't need to break away and he'll still be able to get on the other side of some blocking terrain to a well placed medic.

[AdamWarlock]

I'm finding some stat things I really don't care for in the set. Abilities too, actually.

There are too many guys who have Toughness (or invulnerability followed by toughness) all the way down their dials. Hulk, Abomination, Apocalypse, maybe Doc Samson warrant this. I don't feel that SCORPION does.

DEATHBIRD: Why is it that she has ranged combat expert, much less range; period? She's a close combat expert!! (hint, dammit, hint!)

Mystique is a SHAPESHIFTER (hint #2!!!!!!!)

Iron Man I feel, is USELESS for their points. Exp Iron man: 161 points for a figure with an AV of no more than 7 for most of his dial?!?!?!?!?!!!! Sure he's got a lot of nice abilities, but for any of them to work, he has to CONNECT with his opponent; and at 161 massive points, he's supposed to be your big gun against the likes of Thor & Doom of the 18 DV. Yeah, right. The variety of abilities is colorful and all; very pretty to the eye, sure... but he's a massive waste, I'm sorry to say. Originally I said Crimson Dynamo was the same boat, but it had just been too long since I'd checked the warriors section and I had been confusing this bad stat syndrome (BSS) with Doc Samson...

[Jean_genie]

At this point, I'm starting to think that HC is getting changed around so that it'll play better against Mage Knight. I mean, lower attack values, higher damage, and longer ranges (what the hell else are they thinking giving guys 12 range on the clix maps?!?!)

That's my guess.

[Jean_genie]

Sampson actually looks really sweet to me - especially the Vet, on his first click. With some good positioning, you can get a 7 damage charge off! Or 6 damage, with an 11 attack!

[Sassmatic]

I can't believe that no one has picked up on this yet but has anyone noticed the incredibly low defence numbers? No one has ove a 17 on this set to date... Oh no look out for Apocolipse's big 15 defence. All the X-men stink for defensive values... Cool figs, Cool abilities, awful defence numbers... The end result is that medics are a must and he who striks first may very well have the upper hand. Characters such as Nightmare with an 18 defence are still far from obsolite.

I can just see my Brotherhood team taking a beating with only Destiny surviving.... Come on boxcars!

Bring the pain!

[DareDevil_13]

I'm sorry to say that their are some real problems with this set.

1) Perplex. It's going to be the next cheap thing, games will be won be these figures. Think 5 damage from a Firelord is bad?....

2) The fact that Iron Man (and several others) have really high damage scores is really stupid considering how low their attack scores are. 4 damage is nice, but an 8 attack? Perplexers are the only thing saving them.:(

good things:
1) good generic characters. X-men finally get some good, cheap figs that make the team better.

2)Mandarin looks to be very playable.

3)Great looking sculpts

that's just my 2 cents

[PsychoDBoy]

I dunno....theres jes somethin wrong when the U Elektra from this set could prolly take out Apocalypse...

[Manchine]

Oh wow.

Here I just wanted to start a discussion. :D I really didnt want to start a witchen session. I do see people concern about what can happen in Hero Klix.

It will be interesting if we can continue in a specific direction and I really hope JonL an crew can continue. I just want it to continue on one path so it wont make older sets obsolete.

[Sassmatic]

Oh I'm not complaining!

I'm looking forward to Xplosion more than ever! However as somebody said earlier, Electra is going to mop the floor with Apocalipse... Doesn't seem right does it? Seriously he's got a fifteen defence??

However, this means that a successful team will need to include figs from all three sets to function. I can't wait to Field my New Brotherhood team with Mystique and Destiny on board! And X-men teams should be a blast!

But seriously 15 Defence??!! Meh, the bigger they are...

[Manchine]

Does Apocalypse ever really dodge. All I ever seen him do is make a shield out of his arm and it hits it (invulnerability). If he doesnt dodge he is really not that hard to hit (low defense).

[WarHULK]

I'm sorry, but it's really bugging me... defense...

I'm still not happy with Apocolypse's defense, not by any means, but I'm pretty happy with how constant his other stats don't drop fast at all...

[Sassmatic]

Very true Machine, very true.

What I think that we may be seeing is Marvel's numbers going along the same vein as DC. Everyone claims that DC is a more "balanced" set. We can see the same trend here... Colourful dials and similar numbers.

[AshenFang]

Well, low Defence means a few things..

1.) Easier to heal.

2.) Lower Point cost which allows for better support.. ..like Rookie Invis. Girl. ;)

And as for the mention to the Brotherhood...heheh.

Pyro, Blob, Avalanche, Spiral, Mystique, and Destiny! The founding members of Freedom Force.

They are America's Heros..:D (Or were.. perhaps..)

[Manchine]

So how many times does he dodge. Like I said not to many. He usually just takes the hit. In most cases he doesnt dodge. Although his stats really dont drop fast. Like you said 8 attack after being hit how many times is good. His defense also doesnt drop to fast. Phasing that is just so nice at the end.

[Sassmatic]

It just hit me! Throw out a Sentenial or two, back him up with an Rookie Invisible Girl and maybe a Black Cat and and just simply walk off with some of those beasts for double points! Good luck fielding a team with so many of those bad boys! Of course every good Sentenial plan always ends in total ruin... But MAN! it sure would be fun to just pick up Apocalypse and say "see ya!"

S-W-E-E-T!

[WarHULK]

I just wish he held onto Inv. longer, however. He is really extremely hard to hurt in the comics. He does always return to his version of the "Laserous Pitt" (I know I didn't spell that right at all) to revitalize himself after getting beat upon... or apparently a field medic these days.. heh.

[Jean_genie]

If I start seeing Invisible Girl any more than I already do, I'm going to start bringing lighters to tournaments just so I can burn them all.

I thought she was awesome when she first came out, just like everybody else. But I can't bring myself to get real use out of a figure that is abused nearly every time it's played. Unfortunately, I suspect Psylocke will be the same.

[Sassmatic]

I can see it now!
A surge of teams featuring Invisible Girl with Psylocke, Con Artists, and ONE power Figure...

Originality is in jeporady!

[AshenFang]

Need to crowd your Con artists around your Rookie Blizzards.;)

[Painreliever]

Just so you know Sass...I mentioned the DC Esque defense values in the second post... :) Only prob I have with them is when they get played with the overpowered defenses from before. I think DC is more balanced but play it with IC and you get crushed. I would have liked to see the original marvels come out like what we have now...same with CT, because now we have the original high defense high attack marvels, the High defense, pretty decent attack CTs and now the low defense so so attack of XP. I prefer the heavy hitting charaters to have nicer Defenses...it hold more true to characters...And also forces you to use a heavy hitter at times to take out the other heavy hitters. But with so much perplex floating around attacking won't be an issue....defense will be...If only youcould perplex your own defense through the next persons turn...image....5 perplexes on R Invis Woman...share that out to everyone....almost untouchable

I still think this will be overall a pretty balanced set, combined with the older figs will make for plenty of game play...

[Dalmatio69]

Originally posted by Manchine
Does Apocalypse ever really dodge. All I ever seen him do is make a shield out of his arm and it hits it (invulnerability). If he doesnt dodge he is really not that hard to hit (low defense).

Missing an attack on defense doesnt exactly have to mean the defender dodged the attack. It can represent other things, such as an opponent landing the hit but just not doing any damage. Seeing how invulnerablitiy only protects up to 2 damage, extra defence can help represent this.

This apocalypse is underpowered in many ways. Im not so sure if Apocalypse was this weak at any time though. But at least hes cheap.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Jean_genie
If I start seeing Invisible Girl any more than I already do, I'm going to start bringing lighters to tournaments just so I can burn them all.

But I can't bring myself to get real use out of a figure that is abused nearly every time it's played. Unfortunately, I suspect Psylocke will be the same.

Destiny !
20 points for a PC with Spider Senses is very good.
people in tournaments are really boring, yep.


Awesome sculpts !
about the stats: hmmm, maybe I could better complain about them in another thread so this one can stay positive.:rolleyes:

[ludd_gang]

The Positive.....

Attack Values: I suspect the Perplex + low attack values is somewhat intentional- it requires more teamwork and puts an emphasis on board position. Infinitely more interesting than making a fig that "has it all" on its dial.

Defense Values: Similarly, the Super Senses, Defend ability, the Defender's team ability and cheap PC bolster the defensibility of the figs. Super senses is a spectacular counter to high attack values and is great for the approach. The other abilities require a player to utilize positioning, which makes the game interesting.

The negative.....

It is a pet peeve of mind to constantly hear players accuse WK of not playtesting enough, making figs too powerful or too weak, having bad rules, etc.

The fact of the matter is these people WORK on these games 40 hours a week and have YEARS of experience. They understand gaming to an extent which the average player cannot even begin to comprehend. I suspect many people griping don't even understand basic probability, much less the more subtle concepts of game design.

Yes, sometimes a detail will slip through the cracks (the Nameless One). Yes, sometimes a game designer will not fully understand the exact nature of a comic book character (Clayface III). Yes, cutthroat players will find a way to abuse the rules (Stalling with the Nameless One). But if people spent as much effort discovering the game as they do complaining about it, I believe they would find that HeroClix *IS* one of the best designed games in the history of modern gaming.

Ok, my rant is done. I still love yall.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by ludd_gang
The Positive.....

Attack Values: I suspect the Perplex + low attack values is somewhat intentional- it requires more teamwork and puts an emphasis on board position. Infinitely more interesting than making a fig that "has it all" on its dial.

Defense Values: Similarly, the Super Senses, Defend ability, the Defender's team ability and cheap PC bolster the defensibility of the figs. Super senses is a spectacular counter to high attack values and is great for the approach. The other abilities require a player to utilize positioning, which makes the game interesting.

The negative.....

It is a pet peeve of mind to constantly hear players accuse WK of not playtesting enough, making figs too powerful or too weak, having bad rules, etc.

The fact of the matter is these people WORK on these games 40 hours a week and have YEARS of experience. They understand gaming to an extent which the average player cannot even begin to comprehend. I suspect many people griping don't even understand basic probability, much less the more subtle concepts of game design.

Yes, sometimes a detail will slip through the cracks (the Nameless One). Yes, sometimes a game designer will not fully understand the exact nature of a comic book character (Clayface III). Yes, cutthroat players will find a way to abuse the rules (Stalling with the Nameless One). But if people spent as much effort discovering the game as they do complaining about it, I believe they would find that HeroClix *IS* one of the best designed games in the history of modern gaming.

Ok, my rant is done. I still love yall.

1)AV's OK I understand them bringing down some of them (at thesame time bringing down some defences, BUT Colossus should have a 10 AV !! and a better defence value then a thug !!
a 10 AV for a melee fig with SS is the minimum for a fig like Colossus.


A bruiser with an 9 AV is laughable and that is putting it mildly !!

2)hmm, 18 defend is a really boring ability, I've played against it for many years (MK) and it blows !
turtling with 18 defence hurts even more, having bruisers with a 9 AV don't even have a slight chance of winning.

3)I play these sort of games often as well, so I know something aboot them I think.
having to work 40 hours a day on balancing does not mean other people (with a fresh perspective) couldn't ever do a better job on it.

4) I have no problem with the FL (NO duplicates) though he's hard to take down it's doable.
designer might not be aware of some characters nature they're making that's what the fans are for !
though they get 90% correct complaining aboot the other 10% might change something (look at Spidey and DD).

[whiteperegrine]

Colossus (E:95pts, xmen team)
Move: 6 8char 8char 8char 7 7 7 6 6
Att: 9 9ss 8ss 8ss 7ss 7ss 7ss 6 6
Def: 14 15inv 14inv 14inv14tou 13tou 13tou 13tou 12tou
Dam: 1 4 4 3 3 3 2 2

Doc Samson (E:91pts, no team)
Move: 8lc 8lc 8lc 7lc 7lc 6lc 6 6
Att: 10ss 9ss 8ss 8ss 7ss 7ss 6ss 6ss
Def: 16inv 15inv 15 14 14 13 13 12 Invul for 1st 2, Tough for next 5
Dam: 3per 3per 3 2 2 2 1 1

ok, I am not really into the whole moaning and groaning thing and this is really my first real post along these lines. I will attempt to keep the crying to a minimum and will try to keep it to comparison of these two 'bricks'.

Quick Comparison
Move: Tie
my reasoning here is that they have the same amount of movement and I think Leap/Climb is as good as Charge.
Attack: Doc Sampson
he wins...better attack down the dial and he keeps Super Strength all the way down where Colossus is missing it 3 times.
Defence: Doc Sampson
sampson has a slightly better defence down the dial. while he only has two 'clicks' of invuln, to peter's 3, he does not suffer that first 'normal' person click of no abilities.
Damage: Colossus
I gave this one to peter...just barely. compairing straight damage without powers gives him that edge. the key thing to remember is the power behind perplex though...this is something that is pretty tough.

so the end result? why would you field colossus over sampson? not sure the charge is enough, especially given that your opponent has the potential to 'zing' colossus on the first turn and before he has to push to get armored up. I am of the mind to say that I doubt I will ever field him and he's my favorite xman! the big reason for this is that there are to many figs out there that are cheaper, have a really good attack and damage that can 'shut him down' immediately...
sigh...why not more than 3 clicks of invuln? this is my biggest 'let down' for his powers...his armor never got 'weaker' and given his low defence not sure peter is going to last on the table in any protracted battles...

Other Observations
Like many others here I have noticed the lower values across the board. I actually do like this but I wish it would have been this way for all the sets...but hindsight is always 20/20. the problem we will see now is that using colossus (for example) in any games will almost be a waste of points if you are playing to win. the reason besing that the other sets have to many people with super high defences that he has small chance to hit and he in turn can get pegged pretty easily...heck, iirc, a thug has an even money chance to hit him, not that he would damage him but you see my point. assuming the values are pretty much inline with this across the board I don't think we will see many of these figures used in tournies...but I could be wrong.

Regarding the point values...umm...I am wondering whether they have 'multiple' programs to determine the cost of figs...we have to many instances of characters being more 'effective' for the same amount of points as another figure. this is assuming there is a program and they don't just run with a 'guideline' for the creaters of the characters. I dunno...just seems a little weird to me...

I am sure there will be quite a few 'gems' in this set and I will get it with everyone else but the frustration is bit high at the moment. keep up the good work WK. :)

[Xavier PhD]

Originally posted by whiteperegrine

Regarding the point values...umm...I am wondering whether they have 'multiple' programs to determine the cost of figs...we have to many instances of characters being more 'effective' for the same amount of points as another figure. this is assuming there is a program and they don't just run with a 'guideline' for the creaters of the characters. I dunno...just seems a little weird to me...

I am sure there will be quite a few 'gems' in this set and I will get it with everyone else but the frustration is bit high at the moment. keep up the good work WK. :)



actually i don't think its multiple programs... if you play around with the point generators some people have put together (and are VERY accurate by the way... usually only about 3-4 pts off) the problem is within the formula itself. there are many ways you can make a super powered character and have the points be very, very low and there are manny ways you can have a really weak character and have the points end up very high. thats why i guess they need a lot of play testing and it takes them a while to come out with sets that are hopefully balanced.

[Legacy]

how do you guts know all this about xplosion? I have only seen pictures. if you know a good website or somthing tell me

[ludd_gang]

Itsy-

1. Designers often times make a component geared towards early game and late game. Collosus is a finisher. Exp. version can do 7 damage with a heavy object for 95 points. Comic rationale: He has never flown solo and needs someone to set him up for the kill. That's why he always "Fastball Specialed" Wolverine in then cleaned up the rest.

2. That's why superheroes use teams- to make them versatile and able to address specific issues. Again, Collosus can't handle 18 DV so he Fastballs Wolvie. .(Edit: Oh carp, I came up with an example that will really draw heat, didn't I? I was being metaphorical. Yeah, that's the ticket....)

3. Dude, I don't know how much you play. But the great thing about a good game is there is always a higher level to them. I've been designing games for 20 years and I still learn new concepts REGULARLY. The extent of gaming concepts is unimaginable to most people, even those that play them often. There's nothing wrong with that, but keep in mind that there may be something you don't understand that someone else will.

4. I agree with you 100%. I think it's great how WK DOES respond to fan comments. Sometimes people do get nit picky, which is the OCD nature of "fans".....

[whiteperegrine]

Originally posted by Legacy
how do you guts know all this about xplosion? I have only seen pictures. if you know a good website or somthing tell me

my information comes from here on hcrealms....xplosions stats...

unfortunately, I do not have any of the figs yet...but I will, I can wait.

[whiteperegrine]

Originally posted by ludd_gang
1. Designers often times make a component geared towards early game and late game. Collosus is a finisher. Exp. version can do 7 damage with a heavy object for 95 points. Comic rationale: He has never flown solo and needs someone to set him up for the kill. That's why he always "Fastball Specialed" Wolverine in then cleaned up the rest.
agreed. peter always was a defensive fighter. the down side being that this finisher will be finished before he gets to sweep up as the distance experts will pick him apart. his lack of invuln deeper down the dial is my concern here, in combination to the "normal" mode first click. ....has anyone seen the veteran stat line yet???

2. That's why superheroes use teams- to make them versatile and able to address specific issues. Again, Collosus can't handle 18 DV so he Fastballs Wolvie.
agreed. peter was never the 'true' fighter of the xmen...that's what wolvie was for. as I mentioned earlier, peter was a defensive player...

3. Dude, I don't know how much you play. But the great thing about a good game is there is always a higher level to them. I've been designing games for 20 years and I still learn new concepts REGULARLY. The extent of gaming concepts is unimaginable to most people, even those that play them often. There's nothing wrong with that but keep in mind that there will always be something you don't understand that someone else will.
agreed. there are many aspect to designing a game...but careful on your wording there...comes across with presumptions on your part...

what I was questioning was the process itself. through questioning the system we are able to improve said system. given my questioning the point "program" I am wondering whether it needs a major review or overhaul to strike a better balance...


4. I agree with you 100%. I think it's great how WK DOES respond to fan comments. Sometimes people do get nit picky, which is the OCD nature of "fans".....

yuppers, WK is by far the best company that I do buisness with in regards to responding to their customers needs and wants. sure they can't do everything but they sure do a lot for the customer...especially when compaired to other, larger companies who are an absolute nightmare to work with....

Griping and discourse only vary in tone and the amount of thought involved. I'm not saying all objections are out the window- I think your post and several others here are good examples of how ideas can be portrayed without sounding gripey. :) Others are not.
agreed...but some people are not as eloquent at putting forth their displeasures in a civil format and so the rant. the goal is to read between the lines and try and filter out their 'actual meaning'...sometimes it just 'flamebait' stuff, other times they have a legit complaint or concern. we need to becareful not to discount a person out of hand because their writing style is not up to our personal standards....

just some thoughts :)


<edit>dropped a misread on my part...

[ludd_gang]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whiteperegrine
[B][so the end result? why would you field colossus over sampson? not sure the charge is enough, especially given that your opponent has the potential to 'zing' colossus on the first turn and before he has to push to get armored up. I am of the mind to say that I doubt I will ever field him and he's my favorite xman! the big reason for this is that there are to many figs out there that are cheaper, have a really good attack and damage that can 'shut him down' immediately...
[QUOTE]

Use Collosus end game. Like Wolfsbane, he's a clean up fig. Trade the dead click off to an X-man- yeah it costs him an action, but your saving him for clean-up duty anyway, right?

Low DV is dangerous early game, but not a threat late game when Invulnerability can be inpenetrable (once Outwit and damage over 2 is off the table). Plus it can be good for Medics.

Charge + Superstrength is always good. With an 8 speed taxi, its like having a 12 range attacker that hits for 4-7 damage. Late game when all the taxis are toast he'll always have the jump on other brawlers.

He has one extra click, granted you need to donate it to a fellow X-Man. If you maximize though, a single click is substantial.

[Drashia]

Why would a rookie Ninja not have 2 dmg to start while the exp has 2, 2 dmg clicks... does this make sense?

[whiteperegrine]

Originally posted by ludd_gang
Use Collosus end game. Like Wolfsbane, he's a clean up fig. Trade the dead click off to an X-man- yeah it costs him an action, but your saving him for clean-up duty anyway, right?

Low DV is dangerous early game, but not a threat late game when Invulnerability can be inpenetrable (once Outwit and damage over 2 is off the table). Plus it can be good for Medics.

Charge + Superstrength is always good. With an 8 speed taxi, its like having a 12 range attacker that hits for 4-7 damage. Late game when all the taxis are toast he'll always have the jump on other brawlers.

He has one extra click, granted you need to donate it to a fellow X-Man. If you maximize though, a single click is substantial. [/B]

so hold him back...let the rest of the team take it's lumps while this high priced fig awaits in the wings? also, using this same logic shouldn't all characters with Charge be held in reserve for clean up?

personally, I am not for keeping any figures in reserve...you are weakening your team against you opponent, especially if he/she is coming in full force. in addition, keeping peter back is a big chunk of points that will really be missing on the front lines if he is held in reserve...

[the itsy bit]

20 years, umm no I didn't play that long.

the point of my story/rant is this: I must play Colossus.
I don't care aboot the other bruisers (unless if we're comparing).
Why?
because he's one of my favourite characters of my favourite X-teams.
15 defence is extremely low ! INV is good for cleaning up, but by that I'm handicapping myself for 79+ points (I'm still wanting to see the V Colossus).

Colossus in the X-men was a "defencive" fighter (I don't really like that term for a bruiser), he was always in the front taking the blows/shots for the team.
I can't do that with this Colossus, every fig of all sets have a chance of hitting him and doing even 1 damage (after Inv.) hurts him.
I'd rather charge in with him and go out in a blaze of glory then having to wait for the rest of the team to damage all the other figs to 2 damage/no outwit etc. so he can "clean up".
Hero's don't do that !

[ludd_gang]

Originally posted by whiteperegrine


so hold him back...let the rest of the team take it's lumps while this high priced fig awaits in the wings? also, using this same logic shouldn't all characters with Charge be held in reserve for clean up?

personally, I am not for keeping any figures in reserve...you are weakening your team against you opponent, especially if he/she is coming in full force. in addition, keeping peter back is a big chunk of points that will really be missing on the front lines if he is held in reserve...


I think you misunderstood me. Its not the charge that makes him an effective mid to late game piece. Its that he is kept relatively inexpensive because of his low AV's. However, in a 300+ pt game, a clean up fig capable of finishing huge contenders in a single blow (think Firelord) is usable, even at 1/3 of your points.

In short, Colossus has one particular role that he is very good at. Is a first wave attacker? No. Does he fit on every team? No. But he is usable if you understand his concept.

[Xian]

Colossus (E:95pts, xmen team)
MV: 6 8CH 8CH 8CH 7 7 7 6 6
AV: 9 9SS 8SS 8SS 7SS 7SS 7SS 6 6
DV: 14 15IV 14IV 14IV 14T 13T 13T 13T 12T
DM: 1 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2

Doc Samson (E:91pts, no team)
MV: 8LC 8LC 8LC 7LC 7LC 6LC 6 6
AV: 10SS 9SS 8SS 8SS 7SS 7SS 6SS 6SS
DV: 16IV 15IV 15T 14T 14T 13T 13T 12
DM: 3PX 3PX 3 2 2 2 1 1


Before I go any further, these two are definitely good to contrast with each other. Nearly the same points, and similar purposes. Colossus has one more click of life, but it's one of those "human" clicks. This is highly useful on the X-Men team, though, allowing someone else to push on the second turn (Jean Grey?), and Colossus can heal them while getting on his good click.

Originally posted by whiteperegrine
Move: Tie
my reasoning here is that they have the same amount of movement and I think Leap/Climb is as good as Charge.

Leap/Climb is good, but no way is it anywhere near as good as Charge. Charge allows melee characters to move in, pick up an object (assuming SS) and hit, all in one action. Heroclix is all about getting your shots in before the enemy gets a chance. I'd give this one to Colossus. Doc Samson comes close for keeping Leap/Climb longer, but 8 Charge with Super Strength is really good.


Attack: Doc Sampson
he wins...better attack down the dial and he keeps Super Strength all the way down where Colossus is missing it 3 times.

Agreed.


Defence: Doc Sampson
sampson has a slightly better defence down the dial. while he only has two 'clicks' of invuln, to peter's 3, he does not suffer that first 'normal' person click of no abilities.

I'd call this one a tie, as the stat values aren't that major, and Colossus does keep both Invulnerability and Toughness longer (including on his last click). I don't really think the first "human" click is really that big a hindrance for the X-Men.


Damage: Colossus
I gave this one to peter...just barely. compairing straight damage without powers gives him that edge. the key thing to remember is the power behind perplex though...this is something that is pretty tough.

Perplex is nice, and versatile, but it can be Outwitted, while Colossus' damage doesn't fade.


so the end result? why would you field colossus over sampson? not sure the charge is enough, especially given that your opponent has the potential to 'zing' colossus on the first turn and before he has to push to get armored up.

Of course, you're also forgetting that Colossus is paying for the X-men team ability, so he's going to lose out somewhere to a similarly priced figure, while the Doc isn't paying for a team at all.

Sure, Colossus can be hurt early, though you can avoid that with proper positioning.

[quote]why not more than 3 clicks of invuln? this is my biggest 'let down' for his powers...his armor never got 'weaker'[quote]

True. Still, I don't want to think about how expensive he would be if he was Invulnerable all the way down.



Xian

[the itsy bit]

Heroclix is a fan-based game.
Colossus is 1 of my favourite X-men of my favourite X-teams, so I really don't have a choice I MUST field him.

second his first "normal" click can be handled with pushing or a good use for the X-men team ability (although it takes an action to use :( ), I don't have a serious problem with that.

where I'm having a problem with is this:

only the V version is playable

15 defence is WAY too low for a bruiser of 111 points ! (and dropping fast).

the Rookie and Exp. version are totally not cost efficient enough to even consider !!:rolleyes:

I can live with the 10 AV.

4 damage ! nothing wrong with that.

Awesome sculpt !!


the bottom line is: JonL wanted to make Colossus different from the other bruisers (by giving him the "power up" click), OK.
But then he goes on making him have thesame basic Inv,Inv,Tou,tou clicks (like all the other bruisers).

I say (and have said long before), only give Colossus Inv. just give him less clicks of "life" with it.
Colossus doesn't get fatigued in his steel body armour (he can go on without air,food, etc.) so NO toughness clicks for him !