View Full Version : Too Perplexed??
MidnigherApoll
03/02/2003, 01:18
It seems since Perplex was added to the game, it's been THE hot power. Lots of characters have it, in my opinion too many, and it's hardly special anymore. I was ust looking at all the characters from Xplosion in the Warrirors section that have it, and was shocked at how many figures have it, and who some of them are. I understand why someone like Mystique would have Perplex, but she doesn't even have Shape Change!
I have to agree. XPlosion looks really great at first, but all this perplex seems to ruin its appeal. C'mon, 11pts. w/ perplex? So what if you have to push? And Mystique has it with stealth for 34 pts. And Gambit, and half the other characters. What's going on?
wonderboy8917
03/02/2003, 14:39
I realized this right off the bat. Plus with the now super cheap 11 pt Rookie Con Artist in play, all you gotta do is do a Pulse Wave and you got instant perplex.
V Dr. Octopus used to be unique and special for his powers in the Marvel universe but now I can take that 66 pts and substitue it with 6 Rookie Con Artists! Throw in the Doombot LE (who has Plus Wave!) and now you got 7 perplexers! Now you tell me, is that broken or what?
Completely agreed. FIrst, everyone wanted Outwit, now it's Perplex.
There are as many perplexers in Xplosion as in Hypertime and Clobberin' Time combined.
Thing is, having all the perplexers means that previously big hitters who are fading (Juggernaut springs to mind) remain useable in tourney play. Otherwise, we get into a situation where each expansion effectivly does away with the usefullness of half the pieces in the previous expansion...IMHO.
All the Best
Noman
Mongoose
03/02/2003, 16:29
I have a really bad feeling that perplex is gonna destroy the game's geometry. Everyone will just grab the con artists (Push them) and amplify some heavy hitters damage. I mean I don't wanna put Juggernaut in there to be killed in 1 round. That is just plain stupid.
Spiritual_Ex
03/02/2003, 17:26
First of all, you have to waste 2 actions to get the Con Artist to the Perplex level. 1 to do something, and then another to push. You field a bunch of these girls you'll have to really blow alot of actions on this. And they are really very ####py otherwise. They'll die easily in droves, just means there will be something for my characters who only do 1 or 2 damage to do (take out perplexers, and I think that can be done is rather short order).
I'm not worried about them, and I think you guys are over-reacting, lets see how they play, and how people deal with them. The first little while might suck, but I bet things will eventually even out and people will get used to playing agains them. I'd much rather invest 45 points in a Bullseye than in 4 perplexers, especially in small 200 point games where every point counts.
Mongoose
03/02/2003, 17:39
First of all, you have to waste 2 actions to get the Con Artist to the Perplex level. 1 to do something, and then another to push. You field a bunch of these girls you'll have to really blow alot of actions on this. And they are really very ####py otherwise. They'll die easily in droves, just means there will be something for my characters who only do 1 or 2 damage to do (take out perplexers, and I think that can be done is rather short order).
They have perplex for 2 clicks on their life dial. If you do multiple attacks, your damage is reduced to 1. I don't think that anyone will be stupi enough to group them together, seeing as to how perplex has a 10 range. I'm sure that people will find out, come tournament time. Luckily for us RCE can't be teamed with any powers (In short we won't have to worry about Firelord's damage being perplexed).
wonderboy8917
03/02/2003, 17:42
Originally posted by Spiritual_Ex
First of all, you have to waste 2 actions to get the Con Artist to the Perplex level. 1 to do something, and then another to push. You field a bunch of these girls you'll have to really blow alot of actions on this.
News Flash: You can PULSE WAVE your OWN FIGURES.
So, I spend ONE action to get all the CA to take one damage and now I've got mass perplex to use on whoever I want.
Plus, any smart player will just keep them in the background to up their heavy hitter so you'll have to come across the board to come after them and you'll be wasting actions on 11pt figures while I'll be stomping your 100+ figures.
I think the Con Artists are going to give those multi-arrow figures who don't have EE something to do ;)
The vet has 2 clicks, but the rookie only has 1. So you're getting 2 at 2 clicks for the cost of 3 with 1 click.
Wonderboy said Plus, any smart player will just keep them in the background to up their heavy hitter so you'll have to come across the board to come after them and you'll be wasting actions on 11pt figures while I'll be stomping your 100+ figures.
Yes, but since we pretty regularly go to the background to take out the Support figures anyway it's not that big a change.
I agree they look good, but personally I'd still rather take Harley. At least she can defend herself.
RavenProject
03/02/2003, 19:07
Originally posted by wonderboy8917
News Flash: You can PULSE WAVE your OWN FIGURES.
So, I spend ONE action to get all the CA to take one damage and now I've got mass perplex to use on whoever I want.
Plus, any smart player will just keep them in the background to up their heavy hitter so you'll have to come across the board to come after them and you'll be wasting actions on 11pt figures while I'll be stomping your 100+ figures.
1) You can only Pulse Wave your own figures if your opponent also has a character within range. So if you've got your Rookie Blizzard sitting there ready to PW your Con Artist army into action, there's no way in hell I'm putting anyone within five squares of him. I'll pick off your PW character first from range, then your Con Army.
2) I can have Pulse Wave too. If you *have* somehow managed to use your R Blizzard to amp up your army, my next trick si to drop in my own PW character and turn them all into X x 11 points of wasted team.
3) If you've got your Con Army in place for the PW boost, then that mean they're all concentrated in one area. That tells me either I should stay the heck away from there, or I've got a nice little killing field ripe for plucking.
-J
panther_king
03/02/2003, 19:39
Well... YOU take a team full of perplexers, and I'll take a team full of peopke with out wit, and we will se who wins (can't perplex if ya' dont have it)
the itsy bit
03/02/2003, 19:52
JonL didn't want more taxi to medic.
and there were medics in CT and now there is 1 for 8 points in Xplosion.:rolleyes:
this is the next bug an X number of Perple figs to do some real damage.
hmmm, that double attack with the sentinel looks really good aboot now !
I can KO 4 figs in 1 turn in like a 500 points game !
wonderboy8917
03/02/2003, 19:53
Originally posted by RavenProject
1) You can only Pulse Wave your own figures if your opponent also has a character within range. So if you've got your Rookie Blizzard sitting there ready to PW your Con Artist army into action, there's no way in hell I'm putting anyone within five squares of him. I'll pick off your PW character first from range, then your Con Army.
I think you've got to take a look at the FAQ. Pulse Wave does not distinguish between friendly and opposing if more than one target is involved.
Sooooo.... that means I can start right off as my first action Pulse Waving my own guys so long as it's hitting more than one character. I don't need to target an opponent, I just need to target more than one figure.
As for using Pulse Wave against me, I'll see that coming and spread out by then or just take out your PW guy or use outwit.
If you think about it, I don't even have to keep them all adjacent.
I could set up like this:
CXCXBXCXC
C = Con Artist
B = Blizzard
X = empty space
Blizzard has a range of 8. When you use PW you half the range to 4. PW also goes through characters so even the outside CAs will get hit. Now I don't have to worry about an EE attack.
Of course if I didn't care about that, here's another possiblity:
CCCCCCCCC
CCCCBCCCC
imagine that in the starting area. 17 CAs all get hit by Blizzard for 1 action. Ok, maybe that's taking it to the extreme, but you get the idea.
wonderboy8917
03/02/2003, 19:57
Originally posted by panther_king
Well... YOU take a team full of perplexers, and I'll take a team full of peopke with out wit, and we will se who wins (can't perplex if ya' dont have it)
The problem with that statement is currently the cheapest outwitter is 27 points. The cheapest Perplexer is 11.
I think I'll out number your rookie black panthers.
Plus, if you loose outwit, I get perplex back.
dolemite199
03/02/2003, 20:22
I am not sure why so many figures in Xplosion got perplex. These 11pt Con Artists are going to severly cripple tournament play. As an example, you use your Blizzard to PW and knock all your Con Artists to the Perplex click. If properly setup you could perplex the damage on, say, She-Hulk or Doc Samnson to around ten. These two figures have a good attack value and can be taxied. You can basically KO any figure in one hit (Sentinel/Senestro on 100pt level) with those two if they can grab an object during their charge. Not to mention the implications of a figure with running shot doing this from range. Abusive use of the Con Artists will lead to a no dupe rule eventually. There is really nothing that you can do to stop this short of KO'ing the brick or massive range attacker before this combo goes of. I am already looking at trying this type of team out to see how broken it can be.
Vet. Annihlis (129pts)
Vet. Wasp (37pts)
Rok. Blizzard (35pts)
Rok. Con Artist X9 (99pts)
300pts exactly. Annihilis can now deal 12 clicks of damage to a figure up to fourteen squares away with his running shot. This distance icreases by eight if Wasp taxis him. This is just my two cents on Xplosions cheap perplexers.
wonderboy8917
03/02/2003, 20:27
Great example dolemite!
This is what I've been saying. The combos are ridiculous if you learn how to play it right. What was Wizkids thinking?
Originally posted by dolemite199
I am already looking at trying this type of team out to see how broken it can be.
Vet. Annihlis (129pts)
Vet. Wasp (37pts)
Rok. Blizzard (35pts)
Rok. Con Artist X9 (99pts)
300pts exactly. Annihilis can now deal 12 clicks of damage to a figure up to fourteen squares away with his running shot. This distance icreases by eight if Wasp taxis him. This is just my two cents on Xplosions cheap perplexers.
Okay, maybe that would be nasty. So he obliterates one figure totally and is now out of range of all his perplex. Outwit him, smack him with your other figures, and Annihlus is dead or mauled. What then of the uber perplex stratagy? I guess perplexing Wasp and Blizzard could make them dangerous...for a short time...maybe. Oooh, or how about if he's fighting...a team with Batman Team/stealth powers (we know how rare those are)! Guess you'll regret not brining in a charger and perplexing him. But wait, I guess this team was unbalanced and not too realistic to begin with.
Sure, I think I agree that the point cost is very *very* cheap for the perplex. But you have to push/pulsewave yourself to the clicks, and those wenches are darn near useless for anything else. (A simple energy explosion could render a handful of rookie Con Artist's useless)
Do I think this is going to change the way teams are built?
Yes!
But tell me, did you really expect the new set to *not* change the way teams were built. I honestly doubt there will be talk of "borken" teams with twenty perplexing Con Artists as the team seems flat out a one trick pony with little real strength. I'll withhold final judgement till the set is out and we can see how teams are being built but I wager that the game will still be playable and fun and that lots of people won't bother with Con Artists in their teams at all.
My thoughts,
Thor.
Perplex is an over rated ability. All you have to do is a couple of clicks of damage and then it is gone. And with perplex as the hot ability....why not use outwit and get rid of it? Players need to suck it up and accept there are ways around perplex other than complaining about it!
Well, I'm going to chime in on this issue because I have a theory.
IC: RCE heavy, BCF heavy, high stat tendency. High attack values.
HT: Leap/Climb heavy, Outwit heavy, CCE heavy, moderate to low stat tendency. High damage values on CCE figs.
CT: Invulnerability heavy, Mind Control Heavy, SuperStrength/Charge/RunningShot heavy, high to moderate stat tendency. High defense values thanks to R Invisible Girl (except for her, there's no glaring stat extremes).
XP: Perplex heavy, EnergyShield/Deflection heavy, Toughness heavy, BCF heavy. Moderate stats pretty much across the board. High damage values.
All that to say this: Every set is power-centric. It hasn't hurt the game before, and it won't hurt it how. Remember when DC came out and people were #####in about the Superman Enemy ability being too-cheap outwit? It's the same thing as the Con artists. No matter how you slice it, they're super-easy to take down, just like Intergang. Trust me! It won't affect the game much!
It has been proven time and time again that little dinky cheepo armies that focus on one strategy (have a few characters and then have 1,000,000 perplexers, etc.) have always failed. Armies of little guys are just not a sound gameplay choice over a solid character with good stats and playability. That's how it's always been, and I don't think this will be any different. ESPECIALLY because they don't start with Perplex. (if they did, I'd gripe my fair share)
RavenProject
03/02/2003, 22:39
I think you've got to take a look at the FAQ. Pulse Wave does not distinguish between friendly and opposing if more than one target is involved.
Sooooo.... that means I can start right off as my first action Pulse Waving my own guys so long as it's hitting more than one character. I don't need to target an opponent, I just need to target more than one figure.
Hm, I stand corrected. I'd thought there was a ruling out there which required at least one of the figures in range to be an opponent's.
As for using Pulse Wave against me, I'll see that coming and spread out by then or just take out your PW guy or use outwit.
How are you going to spread out, though? Your Con Army doesn't have free movement, and their move rates are only 5. You could give them each a free-move taxi, I suppose, but the cheapest option there (R Doombot with a free-mover to copy) is 27 pts each plus the free-mover.
Also, if you're scurrying your Con Army out of my attack range, then you're using actions for that instead of attacking your opponent. You've left yourself in a position where you can get off one big hit, but from there you're reacting to his moves.
Imagine you're facing a swarm army. You've got one big hit on it courtesy of your Con Army. So okay, you take out one of their team members in a first-turn kill. Next round, they deploy their team to ruin your LOS and take out your Con Army in a hurry. With the Con Artist's whopping 12 Defense, even R Henchman is going to make the shot most of the time. You could protect them with R Invisible Girl, but that means you're never going to get more than three to have LOS at a given moment and you're going to have the devil's own time moving them together.
(That said, I will concede a certain appeal to a 70-point triple-Perplex pillbox... it's horrible for maneuvering, but if you can get the combat in position you're going to deal out some real damage.)
Don't get me wrong, I think the Con Artist and all the other Perplex figures in XP will defeinitely cause people to rethink the way they play. However, I think that the cries of doom and gloom are definitely premature. Once we start seeing them in actual play, strategies and counter-strategies will emerge quickly, and we'll gradually see the early abuse drowned out as everyone adjusts.
-J
Spiritual_Ex
03/02/2003, 23:07
Pulse wave: I honestly hadn't thought of that, a bit lame, but I see your point.
I still don't think they will be as unbalancing as you seem to think, I'd honestly rather spend my points elsewhere, sure one or two of them might be nice I suppose.
A massive Perplex army can be countered with a long range one in my mind (Mandarin & Pheonix perhaps), which will force you to come out and play or get brutalized from range. You might be better off in a indoor map, but at the same time it will be harder to utilize your perplexers.
I dunno, just a thought.
MidnigherApoll
03/02/2003, 23:53
I think Firestorm, Scarlet Witch, Blank Panther, Wasp, and a medic's team just got a new addition. However, people have been able to beat this team creatively, so I'm not too worried about the Con Artist.
I started the thread mainly to gripe that there is too much Perplex in the expansion. If a character tricked someone once, it seems the have. The only problem I ahve with this is that I may have mroe Perplex on my team than I need. I understand that circumstances liek that will probablly be rare, but there are a lor of characters i would just want a straight representation of, ie no outwit, no perplex, if it's iffy if they should have it. I'd rathe save the points if I don't want Perplex. I thought Les were for givign characters powers that were a little bit of a stretch.
MidnigherApoll
03/02/2003, 23:54
And by "Firestorm" I mean "Firelord." Sorry if I got anyone excited over a nonexistent figure. :)
Beastchylde
03/03/2003, 00:14
I agree that there is too much Perplex in this set. I'm not really worried though. When HT came out I griped that there was too much outwit. I still think that, but it hasn't ruined the game as far as I can tell. Alot of the characters that got perplex in X deserved it. One thing I am confused about though. The reason I initially thought the Con Artist was being added was because Marvel had very little perplex and DC had a good amount. Seeing as how a lot of characters have perplex though, I don't really see the point of the CA. Just my thoughts.
dolemite199
03/03/2003, 00:30
Thor665,
I know that my example is a one trick pony. However, that example does not mean using multiple Con Srtists is not a viable strategy. I was just elaborating on the fact that these little 11pt Con Artists can, and will, be abused excessively. Used in moderation they can severly trun the tables on a HC game. Hell, even five of the little suckers can greatly augment your attack strategy. Yes, I know they must be pushed/PW'ed into the perplex click, but it can be done.
But tell me, did you really expect the new set to *not* change the way teams were built. I honestly doubt there will be talk of "borken" teams with twenty perplexing Con Artists as the team seems flat out a one trick pony with little real strength. I'll withhold final judgement till the set is out and we can see how teams are being built but I wager that the game will still be playable and fun and that lots of people won't bother with Con Artists in their teams at all.
I agree that new sets will change the way teams are built, and strategies are created. But an 11pt perplexer really pushes the envelope. I am sure HC will still remain fun and playable as well. I am sure their will be people who never use a Con Artist at all. But there will be an equal amount of people who abuse the snot out of them. I know that the "NO DUPES" topic is very touchy, but this type of power gaming, i.e. multiple Con Artist abuse, can be avoided if Wizkids would disallow the use of duplicate figures in constructed games/tournaments. Regardless of flaws or handicaps from creating a team that relys on multiple Con Artists, Wizkids should still look at this as a game play imbalance issue. Thats all I am saying.
Xavier PhD
03/03/2003, 00:43
Originally posted by wonderboy8917
I think you've got to take a look at the FAQ. Pulse Wave does not distinguish between friendly and opposing if more than one target is involved.
Sooooo.... that means I can start right off as my first action Pulse Waving my own guys so long as it's hitting more than one character. I don't need to target an opponent, I just need to target more than one figure.
ummm i think YOU need to take a look at the rules... you can't pulse wave your own characters unless you have enemies within your range.
but as far as the conartists go... i think we won't know how it really works until we play the game... BUT the way i have it imagined in my head, multiple con artists are a force to be feared.
:eek:
Athanassi
03/03/2003, 00:44
Perplex STILL has to have LOF.. and isn't the range only 10???
This will really only help the cheesy defensive teams I already hate playing.
wonderboy8917
03/03/2003, 01:12
Originally posted by Xavier PhD
ummm i think YOU need to take a look at the rules... you can't pulse wave your own characters unless you have enemies within your range.
but as far as the conartists go... i think we won't know how it really works until we play the game... BUT the way i have it imagined in my head, multiple con artists are a force to be feared.
:eek:
Hey buddy, I have read the rules, and I've even had many people agree with my statement being true.
From the FAQ:
"When a only a single figure is in range of a Pulse Wave, that figure is the target, and that target may use Impervious or Super Senses to dodge it/reduce the damage. The Skrull team ability still will not work, as Pulse Wave doesn’t distinguish between friendly and opposing figures. : Nov 4,2002 "
So long as more than one figure is in range of Pulse Wave it is no longer "targeting" the characters and does NOT distinguish between friendly and opposing figures. So it will work on whoever.
Unless you can show me some statement in the rules where it says you must have an opponent in range to use pulse wave, I'm sticking to my statement.
Xavier PhD
03/03/2003, 01:19
i stand corrected wonderboy
Persoanlly, I think you give WK too little credit. Believe it or not, they DO playtest, and there is some kind of balance in the set. What we haven't seen is pretty big (and remember, you can't perplex up CCE or RCE, or SS I think. And for BCF it doesn't matter). So what if perplex gets really big. Run a 5pt lackey in the middle of LOS and they're screwed. We'll wait to see what kind of strategies are around to block this.
I think that they gave Gambit perplex because of his charm, that is the best I can think of. Also, because he has a 9 punch so his charm could either give him a 10 punch or 3 clicks of damage. Now this will be an awsome figure!!!!
Well pulsewave isn't useless anymore..
Beastchylde
03/03/2003, 20:46
FYI, you can't Perplex Pulse Wave. Perplex allows you to add 1 to damage, Pulse Wave reduces whatever damage you do to 1. You would have to Perplex their damage after the attack began and you can't perform an action in the middle of another one. Too Bad huh. Now Enhancement and Shield team can add to Pulse Wave, Explosion, multiple attacks etc. Psylocke is gonna be really helpful.
Spinebreaker
03/03/2003, 21:17
Aron :
>>>Well pulsewave isn't useless anymore..<<<
When you've seen 2 Blizzards DECIMATE Superman just because they only need a 6 and they COMPLETELY ignore impervious, Pulse Wave doesn't seem so useless...
Knocking a group of 4 medics off their support clicks is nice too.
Remember before Clobberin' Time came out, and EVERYONE was running round the forums saying how 'broken' the set would be with Spiral, Doombots and Vampire Lackeys???
How broken are they now we have come to see them???
I know I've never been destroyed by a Vampire/Doombot army.
In mixed games pulse is alright, pretty good against stealth
in marvel only, there's so many characters with toughness or invulnerability that pulse wave wasn't really worthwhile. Yea it could hit medics, but you had to get your blizzard all the way across the map and into range so he could hit them... with an 8 range and running shot that means you have to taxi him 12 - 14 squares min before he can hope to do anything
as for psylocke with pulse wave, well she'll get hit by the pulse herself so that may not be too helpful...
shin-goji
03/03/2003, 23:45
Originally posted by MidnigherApoll
It seems since Perplex was added to the game, it's been THE hot power. Lots of characters have it, in my opinion too many, and it's hardly special anymore. I was ust looking at all the characters from Xplosion in the Warrirors section that have it, and was shocked at how many figures have it, and who some of them are. I understand why someone like Mystique would have Perplex, but she doesn't even have Shape Change!
Shapechange is a useless power though. I love her stats and think they are representative of her quick mind.
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