View Full Version : Should Super Strength automatically provide a Fastball Special option?
It doesn’t have to be called that, so don’t be hung up on Colossus and Logan having a patent on it.
I’m not going to get into all of the particulars of how it would work – that’ll be the job of a separate poll. All I’m asking here is if you believe that characters possessing Super Strength should be able to hurl teammates at opposing pieces.
I've set it up to allow for more than one choice, in case you have multiple reasons. I made the polling visible not so much that we can see who voted for which but so that we can see that it won't come immediately down to the percentages yea or nay, as some will have voted for multiple reasons for or against it. Yes, it makes the raw percentages almost meaningless, but it isn't as if this is a scientific poll. :)
Maybe a week from now, once this one closes (it's active for 7 days), I'll follow it up with a straight Yes or No poll on the topic, referring to this thread for the nuances.
Oddly, this is the first time I'm posting a poll despite being here for so long, so forgive my missteps. I've tried to cover a reasonable range of options. If I do it correctly, there should be seven options -- three Yes and four No. It took a few moments longer as I had to trim the length of four of my options.
DarkBlueAnt
10/15/2010, 16:25
Nah. It'll throw the point system out of whack. Giving every single super strength character a telekinesis-lite makes them all worth about 20 points more.
I would rather see a Huck of opposing figures then a Fastball for friendly figures.
The fastball requires particular durable and flexible teammates as well as team coordination....it still seems more rare of a move that really is more often for Colossus and perhaps, The Thing and Mr. Fantastic (in ball form).
I havent seen it too often by other super strong dudes like....
Superman
Hercules
Thor
Captain Marvel
Wonder Man
Gilgamesh
And almost never from Super Strong Villains like...
Abombination
Doomsday
Solomon Grundy
flatmatt
10/15/2010, 16:30
I'll go with no since it's not exactly a common occurrence in comics and because we don't need to make super strength more complicated.
nivlac713
10/15/2010, 16:31
SS as the new TK? It does make sense and I can see an arguement for it, but it doesn't make sense. Its a rarely done manuever in comics and while it sounds neat, it would be hard to make the transition. TK is there for this in game and for comic accuracy, it just isn't done enough to let every single Super Strength character in the game do it. Spidey never throws Mary Jane at an enemy, Thor isn't running around tossing Hawkeye left and right.
Simply put, I can see it, but really don't want it.
Nah. It'll throw the point system out of whack. Giving every single super strength character a telekinesis-lite makes them all worth about 20 points more.
Valid point, though I still tend to feel that Super Strength doesn't bring anything like what it should to the table, even after it was pumped up a little to allow even those without 3 Damage to punch holes in walls. Having seen how much it costs (well, at least how much it did prior to SPs and Traits granting it) I think that Super Strength as it stands feels a tad over-priced.
SS as the new TK? It does make sense and I can see an arguement for it, but it doesn't make sense. Its a rarely done manuever in comics and while it sounds neat, it would be hard to make the transition. TK is there for this in game and for comic accuracy, it just isn't done enough to let every single Super Strength character in the game do it. Spidey never throws Mary Jane at an enemy, Thor isn't running around tossing Hawkeye left and right.
Simply put, I can see it, but really don't want it.
Understood, though I suspect most of us who would like to see it would be choosing to insist on some damage-reducer on the thrown piece, so MJ definitely wouldn't make the cut.
This would (in part) make Super Strength the old TK, I hasten to clarify, as it requires adjacency for this move.
Too elaborate on what I would think would make a good Huck....
Super Strength (add-on)
KB distance from a Super Strength Attack (resulting from doubles) would be based on Damage Dealt (as opposed to Damage Taken).
Also KB from a Super Strength based attack that would be stopped by an indoor wall instead destroys the wall and the KBed figure is placed on the other side of the wall and takes 1 click of penetrating damage (instead of the Normal KB damage) and 1 action token (if he does not already have 2 action tokens).
I would rather see a Huck of opposing figures then a Fastball for friendly figures.
The fastball requires particular durable and flexible teammates as well as team coordination....it still seems more rare of a move that really is more often for Colossus and perhaps, The Thing and Mr. Fantastic (in ball form).
I havent seen it too often by other super strong dudes like....
Superman
Hercules
Thor
Captain Marvel
Wonder Man
Gilgamesh
And almost never from Super Strong Villains like...
Abombination
Doomsday
Solomon Grundy
Understood (and thanks for the later elaboration on "Huck," as I have never seen the term before and had no idea what you were referring to.)
I guess I'm seeing this more as a case of an available option, and I'm all about reasonable options. For me, someone with Super Strength should be able to do this, making it largely a matter of whether or not the would-be projectile agrees with the idea. I'm fine with having it work by believing that where it wouldn't be a case of a "throw me at him" request it would be the super strong character just deciding to do it to a surprised teammate.
HSS allows many characters to hit and run who would never do that in comics, yet I'd rather have the option be there than to restrict it just because I didn't want others to use it with characters I don't believe would do that. Heroclix powers allow many tactics that don't befit the personality/fighting style/moral restraint of the characters who are represented, but as this isn't an RPG I'm comfortable with leaving such decisions to the players as the alternative is either ludicrously complex rules or not allowing anyone to do something.
Either way, Rep to you (and the others in this thread) for taking the time to chime in.
I think Wolverine and/or Colossus should get a special power like Mammoth/Shimmer or Crisis Blue Beetle where it says Wolverine can be thrown by Colossus or Colossus can throw Wolverine. M&M was close giving Colossus a psudo TK power, but I think giving a new Colossus with a trait saying he can throw any character named Wolverine (And Wolverine can make a free attack) or, A Wolverine with a trait that can be thrown by any figure named Colossus as a power action and then can make an attack for free.
I don't think it should be an "Anyone can do it" kind of thing. I think the old card would have been much better if it had removed the Toughness restriction and just had a "Thrown figure is dealt one damage" sort of rule.
How I would have done it:
Prerequisites: Super Strength
Choose a character
Give this character a power action when it is adjacent to a friendly character it shares a keyword with and has the :m-boot: movement symbol, the :g-starburst: damage symbol and a damage value of 3 or less. The character this card is attached to makes a ranged combat attack against a single opposing target within 6 squares. Place the friendly adjacent character in any square adjacent to the target to which this first character has clear line of fire. If the attack succeeds, use the damage value of the friendly character that was moved by this attack. Place a token on both figures used for this attack and deal one damage to the moved friendly figure. Remove the Fastball Special from the game after the attack resolves.
lensnart
10/15/2010, 17:19
It does make sense that these characters can throw other characters but I have to agree with those that are saying it doesn't make sense for the most part thematically to have them throwing friendly characters.
Usually in comic books strong characters are throwing unfriendly characters to try to hurt them. I think the best way to represent this isn't some kind of TK-lite but a kind of knockback-lite. Perhaps if a SS figure made a successful close combat attack it could knockback that character an amount of space equal to half of the damage dealt. That would be I think a reasonable representation of times when Bane tosses Batman or Superman punches Parasite into a wall etc.
kujonomore
10/15/2010, 17:30
I vote the comic accurate no..... it's something I've only seen with Colossus and it would make a need for super strength to be re-costed, and then it would suddenly make some cheap carp figs much more uber and boorken
konasavage
10/15/2010, 17:30
I'd lean more towards super strength being able to carry others or an object.
I'll go one step farther and suggest you should be able to throw target enemies too. So yeah, close range TK.
nivlac713
10/15/2010, 17:51
Understood, though I suspect most of us who would like to see it would be choosing to insist on some damage-reducer on the thrown piece, so MJ definitely wouldn't make the cut.
This would (in part) make Super Strength the old TK, I hasten to clarify, as it requires adjacency for this move.
By NEW TK I just ment people would start using SSers instead of TKers to get around the board. Why use a squishy TKer when you can load up on cheap SSers that might have more damage reducers?
I think it would make a really interesting scenario, Super Hero Tossing or something, but overall, I kinda fear a change like this. Might be unfounded, specially if they make it really specific, like you said, only people with damage reducers get chucked, or mabey just a 2 damage if you toss someone, so people without reducers get hurt.
Ohh but with that we would then have a super activater manuever... Hmm, man this would be hard to do right...
I vote the comic accurate no..... it's something I've only seen with Colossus and it would make a need for super strength to be re-costed, and then it would suddenly make some cheap carp figs much more uber and boorken
As cool as it would be I completely agree we don't need KC CR Superman with power to carry two objects and throw two charactors that's just BROKEN beyond measure
I vote the comic accurate no..... it's something I've only seen with Colossus and it would make a need for super strength to be re-costed, and then it would suddenly make some cheap carp figs much more uber and boorken
Understood, if not necessarily agreed with.
As mentioned I'm generally in favor of going for what a character could do, and I remain unimpressed with what Super Strength currently brings, feeling it remains over-costed.
All that said, I know it's far from an easy change to just flatly agree with. The question's there mostly to play with the possibilities.
obesesniper93
10/15/2010, 18:00
i'm saying no, because it would throw the game out of balance. i can imagine people who'd put R crystal from sinister, or R thunderbird from AW on every team, just to get that "DIET TK" for around 30 points...
the only thing that would make SS better without tipping the scales ALOT is letting them pick up objects adjacent to them, without moving... and even THAT'S a pretty big deal...
i'm saying no, because it would throw the game out of balance. i can imagine people who'd put R crystal from sinister, or R thunderbird from AW on every team, just to get that "DIET TK" for around 30 points...
Sure, but they'd still be paying the points for it and it really wouldn't even be as bad as the old Mandroid pieces were, whose TK players used to launch strikes. With the proposed SS toss maneuver the initial attack would be dependent on the tosser's (apologies to those across the pond) AV and the character thrown would almost certainly be guaranteed to take damage -- really, I'd insist on a single click taken by anyone who was thrown.
Again, just something to mull over.
Nickel97
10/15/2010, 18:07
No, for some other reason, namely this: Leave the standard powers alone! I'm tired of relearning the rules.
No, for some other reason, namely this: Leave the standard powers alone! I'm tired of relearning the rules.
Heh. Well, it's tough to argue with that. I doubt there's any of us who haven't had at least a few moments of wishing the tinkering would end so we didn't have to feel as if another update was going to change something fundamental on us. (Rep to you, too.)
Still, in the past eight years one of the complaints I've heard again and again from new players I was explaining the game to (all of whom were coming at it from the comics side of things) was how disappointing Super Strength was. It's one of those basic, primal super powers yet it's so narrow within this game. In fact, I think the only things I've heard complained about more is the ease and sweeping nature of Outwit and some aspects of Stealth.
sstralkowski
10/15/2010, 18:26
I'd ok with it having a limited range like 3 or 4 squares as well as the inability to throw characters over a certain point value. Maybe 100 or so.
robedestroyer
10/15/2010, 18:39
Oddly, this is the first time I'm posting a poll despite being here for so long, so forgive my missteps. I've tried to cover a reasonable range of options. If I do it correctly, there should be seven options -- three Yes and four No. It took a few moments longer as I had to trim the length of four of my options.
Don't worry about any missteps. There are always a few annoying people who are never happy with a poll no matter how many possible choices there are. This is a great poll asking a great question.
I chose "No, because I'm a stickler for comic accuracy..." I could have just as easily have just chose "No, it will devolve into silliness," but it's really hard to say. If they were going to make one change to Super Strength, I'd love it if they would allow you to drop an object. Are all objects covered in crazy glue so they can never be dropped?
mccordlarsen
10/15/2010, 19:22
I agree with most of you. It's really just a collosus/wolverine thing. I don't really remember anyone else doing it.
mccordlarsen
10/15/2010, 19:27
No, for some other reason, namely this: Leave the standard powers alone! I'm tired of relearning the rules.
I also agree with this with one exception. I don't understand why leap and climb can move across water....maybe alter it so that if you start on land then you can move full spaces (as if they were leaping) but if you're in the water, you should still be restrained to movement in my opinion. but that's a little off the subject...
I'd rather see Super Strength have a carry option (I'd actually like to see fliers lose the ability and have it be a part of Super Strength, probably not a popular idea though) I would like a cheap feat that gives a TK light ability that allows team mates to be thrown, and then make their own attack, make it like 4/6 square range and can be used in place of close combat attack so you can charge and throw. IE.
Hurl into Battle
Prerequisites :a-fist: or :a-duo: & Super Strength
When this character is given a close combat action, it may use Telekinesis option 2 to move an adjacent friendly character up to 4/6 spaces in any direction. The target friendly unit will only be allowed to take Free or Close Combat actions until the start of your next turn. (Neither Target Nor Initiator may be carrying an object at the start or end of this action.)
Cost 12 (more/less not sure.)
Or allow options 1 or 2 @ adjacency with a 4/6 range and no restriction of action to non friendly targets and must follow the option 1 rules of engagement for a minimum cost of 20.
I voted no on account of inevitable silliness (abuse).
Those percentages add up to 128.7%
Code error somewhere
webhead76
10/15/2010, 22:49
I'd have to say no to this idea, Fastball Special is only for Colossus and Wolverine. I haven't seen it much in comics. I wouldn't say I'm a stickler about comic accuracy, but Fastball Special is just Colossus and Wolverine. Period.
sparks4289
10/15/2010, 23:14
I'd have to say no to this idea, Fastball Special is only for Colossus and Wolverine. I haven't seen it much in comics. I wouldn't say I'm a stickler about comic accuracy, but Fastball Special is just Colossus and Wolverine. Period.
It's already a feat that can be assigned to characters that are not colossus and wolverine, so your logic doesn't really play out.
commandercool
10/16/2010, 00:05
No. Fastball Special was fairly expensive as a feat and apparently extremely expensive on Colossus, so simply tacking it on to a huge number of characters without adjusting their point costs is a bad idea.
I wouldn't be at all opposed to seeing it as a fairly common special power, though. A power that gives a character Super Strength and the ability to use the old version of Telekinesis as a power action seems about right to me.
KillerSavage
10/16/2010, 00:20
I said yes with some details worked out. I could see maybe an old school TK type of thing. Maybe moving the figure 5 instead of 10. It's worth looking into.
crazymike2501
10/16/2010, 01:59
i know you dont like duos and seeing the possible colossus and wolverine duo i wonder what you are trying to imply with this poll...
No, I’m a stickler for comics accuracy as I see it and this isn’t a common maneuver.
That was the option that fit my idea the best, though it's not 100% true for me. I think it should just be a SP on some figures, not a sweeping change as a whole to Super Strength.
i know you dont like duos and seeing the possible colossus and wolverine duo i wonder what you are trying to imply with this poll...
I'm not trying to imply anything other than that Super Strength may currently be over-costed and that it may make sense to allow a character with Super Strength to be able to lob a teammate at a target opponent. Its main intent is to get people thinking about it.
The only relationship (for me) between the presumed appearance of a Colossus & Wolverine Duo and this issue is that it revived the point of how best to handle a Fastball Special maneuver. That's the whole of the connection.
Yes, I don't like Duos. For me, most of them are wastes of characters, regardless of how playable the designers may make them. None of that has anything to do with this poll topic, though, beyond my not seeing the answer being a trick aspect worked into a Duo.
Thusfar the game's seen two attempts at the problem:
The first was a clunky, terrible Feat that a follow-up ruling (as best I can recall) made even worse.
The second was built into the Mutations and Monsters Colossus, which was much closer to achieving the goal. Still, it was undermined by the piece being too many points for the package and, perhaps, by automatically
giving a -2 to AV and Damage for the tossed character for any attack they make that same turn.
Since the Modern Age model eliminates Feats from play the remaining paths to bring this mechanic into the game are Special Powers built into particular pieces or - as is being looked at here - bringing it in via a boost to a PAC ability.
anonym0use
10/16/2010, 18:45
It's not a common maneuver. Maybe limit it to Colossus or Wolverine AND any Keyword X-men. Maybe.
IMO & on another note: Super Strength should allow you to ignore hindering terrain (but not water) for movement purposes. Colossus should not be hindered by a mere shrub, and neither should Juggernaut.
Crazy Bee
10/18/2010, 20:01
I went with the comic accuracy answer. It's just not common in most comics. But I'm all for seeing this as a trait for appropriate characters.
First Lensman
10/19/2010, 10:03
No. It should be a TRAIT put on specific characters that are known to do this maneuver like:
Colossus
The Thing
Mr. Incredible (The Incredibles)
Molly Hayes
Rogue (I think she too tossed Wolverine a couple of times)
Hulk (He tosses everyone -- most recently in What If? he tosses Caiera into the atmosphere to save her from a bomb)
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