Does anyone else think the stats on the new set are going to hurt the game?

[wooberhead1]

It all looks like a cheeselovers dream. We've got this one local guy who already abuses every cheesy thing he ever is allowed, and this is just a world of lame. 11 point hookers with perplex? And don't give me this "it's on the second click" ####. One pulse wave from a rookie Avalanche and problem solved.
I see this making a game that's already hard to keep fun on the tournament scene pretty much impossible to keep fun on said scene. Sure, I can keep things cool with my friends, but c'mon, most of us go to tournies. It's like Firelord recruited a bunch of losers.
I realize this gives all you "Firelord/Wasp/rookie Black Panther/exp Black Cat on EVERY team" people a big woody, but man, this takes the wind outta my sails.
Thoughts?
And what's with the massive perplex overcompensation?

[EnzoZero]

I don't think that the power distribution is a trend more than a comensation, remember this is an expansion. I think it adds depth to the game because your not only going to use the new ones. Sure some old ones will be phased out of temas, but still, it keeps it exciting and new. When someone cleans my clock with a Thanos\nightcrawler\firelord team, I'm just like, "yeah, you beat me, does that really prove anything?" I know it's not the same for tournements for some, but it's not really who you use but how you win.

[Veggiehater]

Woober,

The only 2 figs I forsee giving us any problems are the Paramedics and Con Artists. The rest look fine, and the stats are rather low actually which is the reason why we are seeing a heavy proliferation of perplex. At least that's what I think. ;)

The only thing that "ruins" this set is the existence of the pre-Jon L figs. This set + CT look like they'll work great together. I'm not sure I'm prepared to say the same thing about X-plosion and IC though... :(

VH

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by Veggiehater
Woober,

The only 2 figs I forsee giving us any problems are the Paramedics and Con Artists. The rest look fine, and the stats are rather low actually which is the reason why we are seeing a heavy proliferation of perplex. At least that's what I think. ;)

The only thing that "ruins" this set is the existence of the pre-Jon L figs. This set + CT look like they'll work great together. I'm not sure I'm prepared to say the same thing about X-plosion and IC though... :(

VH

I can agree, but that's sorta the prob. We dont allow Firelord at our venue, neither does a friend, and we'll probably axe Con Artists as well. The point is, I can already tell you what the average cheeseweasel is going to use. You'll see lots of Shadowcat, Psylocke, and as much cheap perplex as they can squeeze in. These are the same people who can't make a team without rookie Panther, or will use Firelord as much as possible. The same people who start on a corner or who huddle around rookie invisible girl. There's just too much room for abuse. Without IC you might be right, maybe it'd be fine. IC is there, I predict a lot of frustration.

[wanna-b-fanboy]

Hmmm. I have been a lil' leery about those Con Artists...

But I figure.. if your oppenent wants to throw 70+ points into these cheese Hoarders, let him/her. The way I look at it is, he sits there and uses rookie Blizzard to PW them onto their perplex clix... you just need to sacrifice one of yr rookie Blizzards to the cause of wiping them out. Boom! Kitty brings in rookie blizzard and he RS's to pulsewave them past their useful clix and into utter usefulness. Your opponent spends time trying to heal them up.. oh wait did you hit his Medic too? wow, he's SoL. Now take your team in and mop up. His team will most likely be depending on these lil' annoying harlots... yours doesn't.. the Linchpins(conartists) in his team are taken out, while you have the rest of your force to wade through the weakened Tarts and almost dead paramedics.
oh?! his Nightcrawler is only doing the 2dmg. he originally had? Too bad. Heeheehee!
I love to go against Cheese teams! Make the victory that much sweeter!!! Like the sweet taste of... Ambrosia!!! ok really... I'm tired.... really tired..

[TheDarkKnight]

Your going to have to be careful with the new combination of powers, things will get dangerous. The only fig i have a problem with is CHEESEBIRD (deathbird)

[PMMJ]

Also, indoor maps will make the perplex horde less viable as well.

I'm just not pleased there's so many new characters with Perplex. Especially since so many of them are, well, not very perplexing.

[Ghost_Rider]

What's the problem? In tournaments, everyone has access to the same figures, so it's not like somebody is coming with figures you haven't seen before. Nobody is at a disadvantage, everyone is on the same playing field.

And people can go ahead and pulse wave their con artists. Then when I mind control the pulse waver and hit everyone for another click, goodbye perplex. ;)

Ghost

[shin-goji]

I would love to see you Pulse Wave your own Con Artists, since that's not legal. If you Pulse Wave, an Enemy figure must be within range. Otherwise Pulse Wave is not a legal power to use. And if someone wants to push their Con Artists to their second click, that's an action on round one and two that they have wasted while you get into position.

I think your reactions are a natural knee jerk hasty reaction to change and new figures. Don't jump on the panic bandwagon.

[VooDoo Child]

Personally I think Xplosion will cause people to think more, Firetards just got Outwitted. Yes it will change the dynamics of the game but for the better I think. People can’t just copy the same Cheesy teams and except to win anymore, there’s too much variety.

[Dr. Ramius]

Did you also notice Mandarin's veteran has a range of 12

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Ghost_Rider
What's the problem? In tournaments, everyone has access to the same figures, so it's not like somebody is coming with figures you haven't seen before. Nobody is at a disadvantage, everyone is on the same playing field.

And people can go ahead and pulse wave their con artists. Then when I mind control the pulse waver and hit everyone for another click, goodbye perplex. ;)

Ghost

for one: everybody has thesame figs in tournaments, how boring !
hmmm, If I would use the cheese perplex (11 point Con artists) I would use them in thesame turn to KO the opponents fig who could do that (MC/EE/PW).

we'll be seeing a lot of these Con perplexers, then you will change your mind !

[Noman]

Q: - Does anyone else think the stats on the new set are going to hurt the game?

A: - Can't speak for the others, but ... In my view ? No.

All the Best

Noman

[Thorgrin]

That is an incorrect assumption.

Per the PAC:

"PULSE WAVE. This character’s ranged combat attack can affect every figure within half his range value. (Optional) Give this character a ranged combat action. Reduce his range value by half. Draw lines of fire to every figure (friendly and opposing) within range in every direction. These lines of fire are never blocked by figure bases, but are affected normally by terrain. If clear lines of fire can be drawn to two or more figures within range, Energy Pulse will inflict 1 click of damage on each figure successfully hit. If there is only a clear line of fire to a single figure, Energy Pulse will deliver this character’s normal damage if the target is successfully hit."

No where does it mention that you have to target an enemy. In fact it says, "Draw lines of fire to every figure (friendly and opposing) withing range in every direction."

So it is a legal tactic.

Now if someone wants to do that, that's fine. I'll just tk my LE Annihilus up, running shot and pulse wave if I have to and then TK or fly Blizzard up and pulse wave again and now all those con artists are useless. Plus if there were any medics, they just took a total of 3 pulsewaves, so they're also useless. Thanks for playing and giving me an easy victory...

I heard the same argument when the Vampire Lackeys came out, yet it's pretty odd that I've never seen a tournament where someone had just a horde of lackeys. Coincidence? I think not.

Originally posted by shin-goji
I would love to see you Pulse Wave your own Con Artists, since that's not legal. If you Pulse Wave, an Enemy figure must be within range. Otherwise Pulse Wave is not a legal power to use. And if someone wants to push their Con Artists to their second click, that's an action on round one and two that they have wasted while you get into position.

I think your reactions are a natural knee jerk hasty reaction to change and new figures. Don't jump on the panic bandwagon.

[Thorgrin]

Have to agree with Noman here. They're pretty comparable/compatible with what came out in Clobbering Time.

Originally posted by Noman
Q: - Does anyone else think the stats on the new set are going to hurt the game?

A: - Can't speak for the others, but ... In my view ? No.

All the Best

Noman

[mulkabu]

Answer: No.

I can't explain the con artist, who just seems possibly very powerful in a team with lots of free move, so they can afford to push her at the start of the game.
But this set so far seems slightly weaker than CT and positively perfect compared to IC.

Brian

[Loganz]

Look, i don't see the point in this argument. The set is relised ( to a lucky few anywas). People are going to use the figs and that is that. I also don't belive in the practice of banning certain figs at tournys. I have been running tournys for 6 months now and i have never had a problem with ANY fig. No fig is broken, every one has a weekness, it is just a matter of coming up with the right stratagy to counter them. However you are intitaled to your own opinion.

[Darth Sabre]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
Have to agree with Noman here. They're pretty comparable/compatible with what came out in Clobbering Time.



I think that people cling to what we saw in IC.

The truth is, that was an appirition (sp?). A mistake/test in process type thing.

Once the DC set came out, I think that was the first of what we'll see from HC from now on.


All the figs from HT, CT, and now X, are all really comparable.

[WarUlt]

I admit I was a little enraged when I saw the cheapest perplexer, prob controller, and supporter, along with all the other perplex. But if you look closer the stats here are a lot lower. I don't remember anyone with an 18 natural defense, 15/14 DV and 8/9 AV seem to be common with XP's "heavier hitters/cheese". So perhaps all that perplex will be spent on AV. 10 damage won't do any good if you can't hit anyone. And it will be easier to take these figs out. That's what evens XP with IC. IC trades powers for stats, and XP is the other way around. Apologize for the length, I just needed to calm myself.

[Thorgrin]

Yep, HT as well. There's only a few guys in IC that I think they did correctly (if you compare with CT/Xplosion).

Ultron
Annihilus
Thanos
Spider-Man-Vet (18 defense against an avg of 9-10 is very, very good)
Hercules
Wasp

A few others, but in general there were a few that weren't done correctly at all.

I think the stats in the new Xplosion are fine. There needs to be a few that are a cut above the rest (Thor, Hulk, etc), but the stats are fine. :)

Hypertime is very compatible with the last 2 expansions.

Originally posted by Darth Sabre


I think that people cling to what we saw in IC.

The truth is, that was an appirition (sp?). A mistake/test in process type thing.

Once the DC set came out, I think that was the first of what we'll see from HC from now on.


All the figs from HT, CT, and now X, are all really comparable.

[TheFallenOne]

gotta go with the "xplosion doesnt scare me" view point. yeah those "hookers" will be playable but not game winners in the way that firelord/roo panther are. now if they started with perplex id be spooked a little. Someone earlier referred to "deathbird" as comparable to firelord. WTF? ive seen that posted a few times before as well. firelord does 5 damage, death does 4 firelord has a 12 attack and a 12 movement. has super low defense with extra long dial to ensure healing. deathbird has 3 powers that dont play well with each other. bcf/rce/RS you cant use any of these at the same time. screw deathbird i want sauron. the set looks great. lots of very versatile characters. ironman/mandarin/elektra/sauron/Green goblin and i dont see any truly amazing powerhouses. im really amped to get my case and start playing. i cant wait to play the savage hulk he will be so dang fun in a friendly multiplayer game. or maybe just field 3 vet abominations, that guy is super beefy. great set. well balanced

[Deathlok23]

Originally posted by Thorgrin
That is an incorrect assumption.

Per the PAC:

"PULSE WAVE. This character’s ranged combat attack can affect every figure within half his range value. (Optional) Give this character a ranged combat action. Reduce his range value by half. Draw lines of fire to every figure (friendly and opposing) within range in every direction. These lines of fire are never blocked by figure bases, but are affected normally by terrain. If clear lines of fire can be drawn to two or more figures within range, Energy Pulse will inflict 1 click of damage on each figure successfully hit. If there is only a clear line of fire to a single figure, Energy Pulse will deliver this character’s normal damage if the target is successfully hit."

No where does it mention that you have to target an enemy. In fact it says, "Draw lines of fire to every figure (friendly and opposing) withing range in every direction."

So it is a legal tactic.

Now if someone wants to do that, that's fine. I'll just tk my LE Annihilus up, running shot and pulse wave if I have to and then TK or fly Blizzard up and pulse wave again and now all those con artists are useless. Plus if there were any medics, they just took a total of 3 pulsewaves, so they're also useless. Thanks for playing and giving me an easy victory...

I heard the same argument when the Vampire Lackeys came out, yet it's pretty odd that I've never seen a tournament where someone had just a horde of lackeys. Coincidence? I think not.


Sorry Thorgrin,

you are looking in the wrong place, look at this line from the rulebook:

Targeting Friendly Figures
You cannot target a friendly figure with a damaging attack. Additionally, a character may never target himself with any attack or super power—damaging or healing.


So for it to be "legal" to PW in the first place, there MUST be an opposing figure within range. Good argument on it not "borken" even if it was "legal".

[Perfectstorm]

Originally posted by wooberhead1
We dont allow Firelord at our venue, neither does a friend, and we'll probably axe Con Artists as well.

And you do this becuase they are bad peices, or you are just bad players.

I am all for devirstiy and playing differnet people, but really, if you have resorted to banning things bacause you can't figure out ways to stop them, then just quit the game. you obviously haven't been having fun with the rules. Counter alot of perplex, with alot of outwit, or counter firelord with so stealth, taxis )and my personal favorite) Mastermind. Nothing id better then letting firelord blow little 6 point thugs off the map while you poison him with red skull and use anyone with a attack of 10+ to get a good roll and take firelord completly out of the game.

and onto the topic. I think that some characters have decreased in usefullness but now alot more characters are equal in useability. Like Herc still is powerful, but he has lost some of his thunder to Doc and The Abominable Snow man.

[AZS]

WAAAAaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!

That's what I think when I see all the damm posts whining about this and that.

But to be more specific;
EVERYONE said the same thing about Harley when they saw the DC stats. It didn't happen. Now we have cheaper perplex with a twist. Sure, Pulse wave works on this (it does, we've had this conversation with Hulk, Hawk and Dove etc. Just accept it), but then what? Your opponent wants 3 con artists and an avalanche? Ok, they're spending 60+ pts on this just for support!!
(Besides, it would be worth it to me to see this combo a 100 times just to see that one time my opponent rolls a critical hit and clicks his ConA's past their perplex!!!)

I'll spend the same 60 pts on someone who can do damage and clean up. Go ahead and ban Con Artist at your venue Woober, ban Mandarin because someone else doesn't like the 12 range. Ban Elektra because you think dual MC is too powerful. The list goes on.

‘Banning’ is a whiners way out, and if you think using certain figures is "cheap," complaining it's broken and out and out banning them instead of bothering to try to come up with a better strategy isn't just cheap and cheesy, its a defeatist attitude too.
Let me know what venue that is so if I'm ever in town I can avoid it.

[shin-goji]

Or they can take a ride on the WAAAAHHHH-mbulance!

[Thorgrin]

You would be correct IF there was only target in said range.

I now look at FAQ:

"1. Pulse Wave does not target characters. The Skrull team ability does not work against Pulse Wave.

2.When a only a single figure is in range of a Pulse Wave, that figure is the target, and that target may use Impervious or Super Senses to dodge it/reduce the damage. The Skrull team ability still will not work, as Pulse Wave doesn’t distinguish between friendly and opposing figures. : Nov 4,2002"

So per the first rule, Pulse Wave DOES NOT target characters. Period. Now you guys might have information or access to "rulings" that I have no time to really chase down, however, per that statement alone you aren't "targeting" a friendly figure. Theoretically there could be one figure, that figure could take all the damage:"If there is only a clear line of fire to a single figure, Energy Pulse will deliver this character’s normal damage if the target is successfully hit"

So a LE Annihilus could RS/Pulsewave and let's say Hulk is the only figure in his pulsewave range, he'd get it all because he isn't being "targeted".

Now is this a loophole? Yes. but until another FAQ/clarification is given, this is a perfectly viable tactic.....

Originally posted by Deathlok23


So for it to be "legal" to PW in the first place, there MUST be an opposing figure within range. Good argument on it not "borken" even if it was "legal".

[Deathlok23]

Originally posted by Deathlok23


So for it to be "legal" to PW in the first place, there MUST be an opposing figure within range. Good argument on it not "borken" even if it was "legal".

Well, did some rules searching on the Judges board and it looks like I'm the one who is mistaken. My apologizes Thorgrin. Got thrown by the whole targeted vs. non-targeted rules. It IS "legal" to PW your own figs as long as there are 2 or more in range. I still agree it isn't "borken". If it causes Sentinels to become playable in tournaments, I wouldn't mind that either. Every tactic has a counter I always say. I look forward to the challenge.

[Deathlok23]

Darn Thorgrin,

Here I'm all trying to be nice and admit I'm wrong. Then you go out and counter my counter argument and rub my nose in it. ;) lol The funny thing is we were working on them at almost the same time. :eek: Well I concede the floor to you my learned sir.

[Thorgrin]

Now that I would agree with. A diverse tournament is a good thing. After awhile, it gets kind of boring playing against the E Ultron/V Bullseye teams (or E Ultron + sinister syndicate).

No problem, it was entirely possible that you were correct. I know there are always "rulings" that haven't been put into the FAQ or isn't really accessible without searching through posts. I do have to admit, it's a weak, VERY weak loophole in the rules and I'm hoping that they'll change things in the future, but if not, I'm going to have fun trying to take these teams out. :)

Might even go with a b/c/f extravanganza. Heck, with con artists, I could put in a rookie elektra/logan and still do good. :) Add Spiral, a TKer and some vampire lackeys and then the fun is ON. lol.

Originally posted by Deathlok23


Well, did some rules searching on the Judges board and it looks like I'm the one who is mistaken. My apologizes Thorgrin. Got thrown by the whole targeted vs. non-targeted rules. It IS "legal" to PW your own figs as long as there are 2 or more in range. I still agree it isn't "borken". If it causes Sentinels to become playable in tournaments, I wouldn't mind that either. Every tactic has a counter I always say. I look forward to the challenge.

[Thorgrin]

DOH, sorry, didn't mean to rub anyone's nose in it. :) As I said, you judges have the latest rulings. I can only go by the PAC and FAQ because that's all that time (generally) allows me for. That and my eyes start drying up looking at a monitor when I'm concentrating on stuff. ugh.

Originally posted by Deathlok23
Darn Thorgrin,

Here I'm all trying to be nice and admit I'm wrong. Then you go out and counter my counter argument and rub my nose in it. ;) lol The funny thing is we were working on them at almost the same time. :eek: Well I concede the floor to you my learned sir.

[Deathlok23]

No apology necessary. The whole nose thing was in jest anyway. I checked the WK Judges board and saw the ruling from Chapeau himeself. So for now it stands. If it ends up really "borken", then maybe we will see a reversal. Until then, it should be interesting. Gotta go, need eye drops to restore my vision :rolleyes:

[webhead817]

The thing with Perplex is, it doesn't help your old school RCE'ers like Firelord or Bullseye, and it doesn't help Panther for that matter, because of the stealth. I think the bounty of Perplex is fine, it will find it's uses, but it's not a cure-all for bad strategy.

[RichieRich]

Who wants to see a She-Hulk do 9 pts of damage?!?!? :D

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by shin-goji
I would love to see you Pulse Wave your own Con Artists, since that's not legal. If you Pulse Wave, an Enemy figure must be within range. Otherwise Pulse Wave is not a legal power to use. And if someone wants to push their Con Artists to their second click, that's an action on round one and two that they have wasted while you get into position.

I think your reactions are a natural knee jerk hasty reaction to change and new figures. Don't jump on the panic bandwagon.

Why do people not read the FAQ? Ask Magister. It's perfectly legal to pulse wave without an enemy around.

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by Deathlok23


So for it to be "legal" to PW in the first place, there MUST be an opposing figure within range. Good argument on it not "borken" even if it was "legal".

Grr. I had a "judge" at our event the other day, arguing rule book stuff, PLUS stuff from the FAQ, for one big ruling. People need to understand the FAQ supercedes the rule book... that's why its there; for rulings and clarification.

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by Perfectstorm


And you do this becuase they are bad peices, or you are just bad players.

I am all for devirstiy and playing differnet people, but really, if you have resorted to banning things bacause you can't figure out ways to stop them, then just quit the game. you obviously haven't been having fun with the rules. Counter alot of perplex, with alot of outwit, or counter firelord with so stealth, taxis )and my personal favorite) Mastermind. Nothing id better then letting firelord blow little 6 point thugs off the map while you poison him with red skull and use anyone with a attack of 10+ to get a good roll and take firelord completly out of the game.

and onto the topic. I think that some characters have decreased in usefullness but now alot more characters are equal in useability. Like Herc still is powerful, but he has lost some of his thunder to Doc and The Abominable Snow man.

Ok, beating Firelord is not the issue. I've beat Firelord lots of times. I don't want to go to tournaments to beat Firelord. I want to go with as interesting or creative a team as I want and not have to worry about someone playing rooke Panther and Firelord. Most of my players agree. You can call it whining if you want, but my events get 8-12 people a week, who tend to be happy. That's what I like: happy players, myself included.

[proditor]

Maybe I'm missing something here....

But don't you need two perplexers just to compensate for Firelord's loss of RCE? So sure, you could throw 5 con artists down to get him to a net +3, but those same 5 con artists on someone with the damage of 3 already and no RCE is lot scarier. If for no other reason than they didn't spend points on RCE, so they probably make up for it elsewhere.

[Azrael0626]

Personally, I think that increasing range to 12 is a problem. Phoenix now has a 12 range. I think there are characters from previous sets that can shoot farther than Phoenix. Does that mean that characters in future expansions should get a 13 or above range? With the exception of LE Thomas Oscar Morrow there is no DC character with a range greater than 8. From what I have seen Superman can shoot just as far as Cyclops. Now characters are getting even greater ranges. If stats keep increasing it will make earlier expansions obsolete.

[Agentofthebat]

I've read multiple post about how folks hate cheesers and how they forbid the use of Firelord in their tourneys. Folks is it that serious?
I played in a tourney last Sat with a guy using 2 harleys and he perplex the heck out of his damages and he won. Big whip. Was it cheese? I don't think so.
What about the folks who actually like Firelord? I'm sure there are at least one or two of them out there. And T' Challa/Black Panther is one of my favorite comic characters...so I like to play him just because. Do I build armies around him? No.
Lest we forget people, part of tourneys are to win the LEs. Having fun is part of it also, but the truth is none of us like to lose and those who can't seem to get past the Firelords and the Panthers and then cry about it all the time are the real cheesers. I'll play any team, if I lose...I'll try harder next time. It's a game, have fun with it.

[dolemite199]

wooberhead1,

I am happy that you have happy players. Did you ask all of your players if banning Firelord was acceptable, because you have just limited the figure selection of your players for Marvel tournaments. There will always be individuals who disagree with or dislike a certin character. But banning them is a very selfish thing to do. Banning a figure at tournaments is like child A telling child B that child B must play with child A's toys and no one elses because child A said so. I have no idea who you are or where you live, but I do know that I will never play in anyones HC tournaments who decides to ban a figure because he sees fit to do so. This is not because I like Firelord, or because I am defending his clix. I would say the same thing if someone had a stick up their ### about Jean Grey. It is simply ignorant to ban HC figures when there is not substantial reason to do so. If you feel that Firelord is played to much than institute a "NO DUPES" rule to limit him to one per team. One Firelord is not a threat by any means. Its the multiple Firelords that are ridiculous. But do not penilize players who want to play with a figure that you have deemed unfair. Thats all I have to say about that.

Azrael0626,

Vet and LE Booster Gold have a ten range. So does Vet Wheather Wizard.

Guy who started this thread,

Xplosion looks pretty balanced. The amount of Perplex is a little suspicious though. I think the rok. Con Artist is insane, but abusing cheap perplex on a team can be avoided if Judges where to implement a "NO DUPES" rule at tournaments. Limiting the amount of 11pt perplex will generally change things.

[shin-goji]

Whine whine whine. Crybabies. wooberhead1, maybe you should take up stamp collecting.

[JoFo]

I'm not worried, the sets all balance out, IMO. IC doesn't have as many cool powers, but the stats (AV and DV) are generally higher and sometimes that extra AV can win a game for you. Xplosion has lots of Perplex, 12 range and cool power combos, but stats are lower (IM is awesome, but can he reliably hit a V Spidey? No.). CT is somewhere in between the two.

[shin-goji]

I think what is going to hurt the game is the most vocal whiners complaining about how they're not smart enough to play with collectable figures which are, in actuallity, worth about $2 in plastic and paint.

[Aron]

Originally posted by Azrael0626
Personally, I think that increasing range to 12 is a problem. Phoenix now has a 12 range. I think there are characters from previous sets that can shoot farther than Phoenix. Does that mean that characters in future expansions should get a 13 or above range? With the exception of LE Thomas Oscar Morrow there is no DC character with a range greater than 8. From what I have seen Superman can shoot just as far as Cyclops. Now characters are getting even greater ranges. If stats keep increasing it will make earlier expansions obsolete.

Actually DC has Booster Gold Vet and LE also with 10 range and Sinestro.

[MTyree]

just my 2 cents, but I've been pretty pleased with the changes in the game's feel as it grows. IC was a good start, but still showed alot (ALOT) of room to improve. HT was a nice peek at what could be done, and CT was great. So far, this one looks pretty good as well. Take Spiderman, for instance. He gets a redo, much more representative of his comic, imho. New powers here and there, not really that big of a deal, and as far as IC goes, maybe we'll see more figures get redone, and that's a good thing.

By the way, what's the difference between losing to a so-called 'cheese' team and just getting creamed from bad luck or one bad move? Losing is losing, it happens to all of us, don't get so worked up over it. :p

[shin-goji]

I agree, MTyree. With every expansion there must be change and growth. Change is not easy nor is it always accepted. But for the game to retain its flavor, risks must be taken, and monkeys must be spanked. Spanked, I tell you.

[MTyree]

oooh, don't know bout that one, SpanxClix. While no doubt there are a few who may be better served doing that than wasting valuable game time ranting, just think of the unsightly tournaments....<shudder> I need to go poke out my minds eye now....

[brendanbrown]

first of all, you're all missing the complexities of perplex, everyone thinks it can and should only be used fordamage boosting, i say, why not get a bunch of cheep pplxers and give everyone on the other team 5 attack? or give someone like hulk range? (unless hes on his battle furry click) or increase someone with ten range ( or when mandarin comes out ) a bunch of range so he can hit the other team from his starting position. long complaint short, perplex was made to boost any stats, not just damage, although thats the easy and boring way out. does anyone else think it would be interesting to see the hulk smashing targets from 6 squares away?

[Comte]

Alright well lets see I've just got done reading an army of people complaining about the whole prostitute thing. I've seen that smae army discussing the usage of pulsewave to get thier prostitutes in line. I haven't considered this tactic, it's neat. So I have one quesion to ask of all of you? When you do that whole pulsewave prostitute thing what is stoping me from taxing someone with EE and killing them all? I mean lets see who dosn't have EE in Explosion? The amount of pyrotechnics that the x-men can throw around is staggering. Heck exp iron man has running shot with move of 10 and 10 range and energy explosion. He could take out a whole block of prostitutes all by himself. Yeah so anyway my point is that it's called energy explosion.

[MTyree]

wow, the vice squad implications are staggering! Keep Stark outta Las Vegas, baby! :D

[Lonehawk]

I'm coming in late here so I apologise if its already been said...

Who needs to worry about FL anymore. Just perplex up your ATTACK and you can hit him easily. And we all no how quickly he falls down.

If anything the new figures can be used to weaken some of the cheese combos.

Just my 2p worth...

[Lonehawk]

Sorry - no proofreading!

I meant to say how quickly he falls down off his danagerous clicks.

[wooberhead1]

I am happy that you have happy players. Did you ask all of your players if banning Firelord was acceptable, because you have just limited the figure selection of your players for Marvel tournaments.

THE NEEDS OF THE MANY OUTWEIGH THE NEEDS OF THE FEW.
Most agree, some don't, some are indifferent. People continue to show up and have a good time, so I don't see too much trouble. We already have a no named dupes rule. Seems to help a lot as well.
I find that scenarios are one of the better ways to keep things mixed up.
I also find things in my pockets that I don't remember putting there.

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by MTyree
just my 2 cents, but I've been pretty pleased with the changes in the game's feel as it grows. IC was a good start, but still showed alot (ALOT) of room to improve. HT was a nice peek at what could be done, and CT was great. So far, this one looks pretty good as well. Take Spiderman, for instance. He gets a redo, much more representative of his comic, imho. New powers here and there, not really that big of a deal, and as far as IC goes, maybe we'll see more figures get redone, and that's a good thing.

By the way, what's the difference between losing to a so-called 'cheese' team and just getting creamed from bad luck or one bad move? Losing is losing, it happens to all of us, don't get so worked up over it. :p

Whats with the general mentality that its all about losing? I don't have any problems making an Ultron team to beat Firelord, or vice versa, I just don't want to, and I don't want that to be the focus of my games or events.
Lets say, oh, we'll call him BARK. Lets say Bark begins showing up with teams of 3 or more rookie Harleys, or always shows up with a Firelord/rookie Panther team, and the other players are playing fun or creative teams. Now, lets say BARK is a decent player, on par with the better players on most levels. BARK is easily going to win with his "cheese" army, and continue to win. THe other players, tired of playing BARKS stupid team and losing all the time, construct anti-Firelord, and strangely similar teams to beat BARK with. Now we've got a tournament with 8 people using nearly the same 2 or 3 teams, and most of them having a bummed out look on their face. Without judge intervention, this continues until people quit, or move on to other venues.
Fun! Or... not.

[MTyree]

wooberhead, you have a perfectly valid point. All joking aside, that does seem to be a tournament issue. However, I have always felt that tournaments will create this by their very nature. It attracts a fair number of, shall we say, zealous players who have one goal in mind. It ain't having fun, it's to win that almighty LE. Combine that with the number of articles about 'the winning team' or WAY more number crunching than is necessary for a kids game, and tournaments are rarely fun. I did enjoy playing a few games last year at Origins because the judges kept it cool and everyone got something, albeit not alot. Most tourneys I've been exposed to don't have that atmosphere, though. As long as winning at all cost, fun be ####ed, is the pervasive mentality, there will be an abundance of these 'cheese' teams.

alright, now I'm in for alot more than my 2 cents ;)

[Batman1983]

NO! They won't hurt only make it better. (end thread)

[Aron]

Personally i'm more bothered by the low DV values this set than by anything else. There's so many 13s and 14s its scary.

[Manchine]

Low stats nope not gonna bother it one bit.

wooberhead1

As for your thoughts on the game. You must play a lot of power gamers. Not all places are likie that. Since most places have a no dup's policy. I dont see how you can get 3 harleys unless someone is playing for blood.

Poor poor people. The win is more important then having fun.

[TychesCoin]

I like the perplex in Xplosion. Think it fits in nicely with the set. My impression is there is a fair number of guys with good damage but bit lower attack and defense values. So there's a push to perplex other things than damage, especially when playing against IC figs. Strictly within xp, go ahead and perplex damage, most characters seem pretty comparable stat wise. Also there's iron man, pretty much all the super powers you could want but less than impressive attack values. Thanks to perplex you can add to stats; you can't give people powers they don't have.

As far as people using perplexers with older characters to perplex up their stats, I don't think its a big deal. I could be wrong, but I think alot of older characters would need +1 or so just be on par with xplosion's natural damage values. No reason to use perplexers to up the attack numbers (does ultron actually need a +1 to hit colossus?) Plus the perplexed damage won't stack with everyone's two favorite attack powers: RCE and EE.

[Thorgrin]

Generally speaking, the no-dupes rule generally takes out the firelord equation. Also, scenarios can weed this out as well.

Last night we had a 10 figure max, 1000 point game, 5 actions max (6 w/leadership). Mixing allowed and team abilities mixed. I had a probably "cheese" group by your standards, but I didn't have a lot of time to develop something wild and crazy and went with figures I knew how to play.

1. Vet Firelord (oooohhhhh cheesy)
2. Rookie Scarlet Witch
3. Unique Wasp (underappreciated figure *cough*)
4. Exp Ultron (ditto, *cough*)
5. Vet Annihilus
6. Exp Dr. Doom
7. Rookie Steel
8. Vet Nightwing
9. Unique Darkseid
10. Exp She-Hulk

Unfortunately we only had 5 people playing, but the other teams did not have specific "firelord" killing teams. Some had Super Skrull, most had Thors, one had Moondragon and Logan, one even had a LE Superman, etc. There were teams that were made for fun AND everyone was having fun. In fact, I think there were 2 firelords total for the night. So what. I actually put him up as a sacrifical lamb. Can't get into detailed specifics, but we had a random roll (I think it's Mind Switch?) and I got to give Firelord and Darkseid the Mystics team ability, so I threw him out there, let him hit some people and had 2-3 guys take one point of damage each to take him out. I didn't mind, I was planning on it. Unfortunately I had some bad dice rolls on my end and ended up losing via points and the time limit. My opponent and I still had fun and he wasn't geared to just take out a firelord. With 10 figures max, I wasn't going to put in a medic or Jean Grey vet because to me, I'd rather have a little more power in my group and take the chance.

If your players don't mind it, then no biggie, but to resort to banning is pretty weak, IMHO.

Originally posted by wooberhead1


Whats with the general mentality that its all about losing? I don't have any problems making an Ultron team to beat Firelord, or vice versa, I just don't want to, and I don't want that to be the focus of my games or events.
Lets say, oh, we'll call him BARK. Lets say Bark begins showing up with teams of 3 or more rookie Harleys, or always shows up with a Firelord/rookie Panther team, and the other players are playing fun or creative teams. Now, lets say BARK is a decent player, on par with the better players on most levels. BARK is easily going to win with his "cheese" army, and continue to win. THe other players, tired of playing BARKS stupid team and losing all the time, construct anti-Firelord, and strangely similar teams to beat BARK with. Now we've got a tournament with 8 people using nearly the same 2 or 3 teams, and most of them having a bummed out look on their face. Without judge intervention, this continues until people quit, or move on to other venues.
Fun! Or... not.

[Homo Arachne]

At my venue (which I will not name, as I do not want any repercussions to happen to the Primary Judge), we used to have a bit of a problem with "cheese" teams. Many people would play fun teams, one or two of us (myself included) would play or modify theme-based teams (I have over 1000 points of Spider-Man based mods), and so forth. There always were a few people who'd show up with multiple firelord teams, however.

This really wasn't a problem for most people. Heck, I won more first places than anyone else there with my biggest ranged character being a Klaw or Nightwing (Punisher or Moonknight, respectively). However, it really does hurt the "fun" aspect of the game to see people show up with the same, unimaginative teams, and several people quit showing up altogether.

The Presiding Judge figured out a solution: in all our events, the LEs are given out as "door prizes." Yes, the cheese players (who tended to place well quite often) whined, but everyone else was happy. Our tournaments are now non-competitive and, although the cheeseballs in question still field multiple-firelord armies on occasion, nobody cares nearly as much.

As for me, I just make and showcase my mods and repaints. I'm still debating whether or not to use "Captain Canada" (my character in an RPG we're all playing) at the tourney or not.

Drongol

[Nickel97]

Xplosion

41 figures have a defense of 16 or higher, of those
13 figures have a defense of 17 (2 are experienced, 3 are uniques, the rest vets)

less than half of the figures have defense values 16 or over.

In IC there were 16 figures with a Defense of 18 or more, in CT there were 8, in Xp there are 0.

IC AV 10+ = 61, 11+ (37), 12+ (19)
CT av 10+= 28, 11+ (12), 12+( 3)
XP av 10+= 23, 11+ (8), 12+ (3)

Defense values are going down, but so are attack values.
(granted, there were more total figures in IC)

please note, my counts may be off by 1 or 2, but you get the rough idea

[MarkStewart]

Originally posted by wooberhead1

I realize this gives all you "Firelord/Wasp/rookie Black Panther/exp Black Cat on EVERY team" people a big woody, but man, this takes the wind outta my sails.
Thoughts?
And what's with the massive perplex overcompensation?


The cheese factor is actually why I don't go to tournaments. I have much more fun just playing with my friends at home.

[Spinebreaker]

>>>Does anyone else think the stats on the new set are going to hurt the game?<<<

No

[k0rnkid15]

it seems like alot of people have to piss and moan about an actualy good looking set. i dont understand. we dont even know the stats of any character and people r already judging 'waah this is gonna suck'. i think people should judge the set once they see the characters dials or know there powers. i disagree w/ anyone who thinks this set is gonna blow just cuz they feel the set is 'cheesy' or 'not distributed right'. it seems like they're jealous as if they dont have any characters w/ good stats at a low cost of points. maybe these sets r supposed to show how they realy should be, like U spidey from CT, lower points w/ better, more updated powers for him to have. and on top of that the newer one seems to be even more like the spidey we know and love. so some of the characters r more or less created correctly wen u think about it, maybe a few flaws along the way.

[Cabbage]

What Xplosion will allow is for more variation when using 400+ point teams. Previously, if you wanted big hitters, there was a limited number of those type of figures to use. I think Xplosion is definitely an excellent addition to Heroclix.

[sol]

Originally posted by Nickel97
Xplosion

41 figures have a defense of 16 or higher, of those
13 figures have a defense of 17 (2 are experienced, 3 are uniques, the rest vets)

less than half of the figures have defense values 16 or over.

In IC there were 16 figures with a Defense of 18 or more, in CT there were 8, in Xp there are 0.

IC AV 10+ = 61, 11+ (37), 12+ (19)
CT av 10+= 28, 11+ (12), 12+( 3)
XP av 10+= 23, 11+ (8), 12+ (3)

Defense values are going down, but so are attack values.
(granted, there were more total figures in IC)

please note, my counts may be off by 1 or 2, but you get the rough idea

So what?
This mix of characters simply doesn't have anyone that rates an 18 or higher defense, or super high attack values. Despite the Fan-Favoritism of the X-Men, the characters represented by them aren't super-powerhouses (in most cases), and the other more powerful characters aren't exactly cosmic, either. The Hulk, being the most powerful has roughly the same numbers as before, but for more clicks.

I think the numbers are fine for the most part, and if anything, some of the attack values are too high, but survivable.