View Full Version : My Thoughts on LE's and Tournaments
Hi everyone,
I first want to say that, I think it is a great idea for Wizkids to be providing prize support to tourniment winners. Kudos to them.
What I don't think is fair about LE's is that either you got to play cheesy teams to win them (Firelord, Wasp, etc) or be a PowerGamer (those players who are borderline unsportsmanlike) or have lots of money and buy them off eBay (has anyone seen the latest Doombot LE? I've seen them going for 61$+shipping!!)
I just don’t like the idea of not everyone having access to the same figures in a tournament. For myself, and I have noticed a few others around the realms, it is hard for some of us to make it to tournaments, because of either time or distance.
Also, I don't like the idea of some of these shops holding fake tournaments, and turning around and selling the LE's on eBay. In my area, there is a chain in Youngstown, OH that is currently doing this. A friend and I went to the store that they were supposedly holding it, and the person running the place said, "We don't run events here, we only run them at the main location." When asked why there was one posted for that specific location, he said, "I have no idea." That was 2 hours wasted in driving time (round trip). The next time we called ahead to another of his branches and it turned out it was just a Kiosk in a mall. How were they planning on holding events there??? Then about a month later my friend won an LE auction on eBay and it turned out to be the store that supposedly is holding these tournaments. Sounds pretty obvious what they are doing.
Any thoughts on this?
B5Garak
kronofear
03/03/2003, 17:07
I think it is great that Wikkids offers LE figures as prizes for winning a tournament. You SHOULD get something *special* for going in and winning against the competition, and if I ever make it to a tournament and win, I would like a LE as well. (admittedly I hate cheeseball players too, my friend is one of them, but I have beaten him several times, without being cheesy.) As for the shop owners "selling" LE's on EBAY, Wizkids cannot be held responsible for the unscrupolous people out there. They can only do thier best to put out a great game with incentivews to come to thier tournaments, which they do admirably.
Its alot of work to complete the set? Well, as in the aformentioned paragraph Wizkids is just rewarding those who do the hard work. What if when you won a tournament you only got a booster that had 4 thugs in it. Feel great about wasting your day on 4 thugs wouldn't you, no you be even more P'Od.
Take a step back and realize what you have here a great game that is fun and if you go to/win a tournament you get an cool figure. Do you really need every figure to enjoy the game? People who think that are the ones who drive the prices up outrageously, and then you stop having fun.
just my thoughts.
hornhead
03/03/2003, 17:27
I agree wholeheartedly with B5Garak.
I've played in a couple of tournaments - they're not that much fun. Even if you win, the 4 - 5 hours you spent driving, arguing rules with other players, playing against jerks and whinners, etc ... it isn't worth the time.
Personally, I would love to have a complete set of LE's, but I don't have the time or patience. I refuse to buy LE's for the exact reasons mentioned by B5Garak - it would be supporting a dysfunctional system.
I'd be willing to bet that only a small percentage of Heroclix players actually play in the tournament system (on a regular basis). It's the casual players (and collectors) that will keep this game selling (and selling well) long after 99% of the people have had their fill of tournaments.
Why not reward the collector who buys a case of each expansion (but can't make it to tournaments) instead of the guy who only collects the figures that will give him the best chances at winning an LE? Use "clix" points to let people "buy" LE figures.
b5garak:
Yeah, that's entirely uncool of a store to do and we have people here at WizKids that spend their days looking into fraud cases like that. We wish is didn't happen becuase it's a big problem for the fans and it hurts WizKids' rep.
We spend a lot of time trying to prevent things like you mentioned and hopefully we get better and better at it. Stores that do this are breaking the law, and more importantly in my view, doing a major disservice to the people that play the game.
Best,
Jon Leitheusser
HeroClix Game Designer
WizKids
Thanks, Jon. I hope now you can see how I was so frustrated. Oh one thing, where can I report activity like this to?
You have been really cool, more than I ever expected out of Wizkids. Keep up the great work man!
Thanks Again,
B5Garak
Specificly, how stringent is Whiz Kids about the fellowship prize?
There is a local venue that does not give out the fellowship prize at all. 1st and 2nd place gets prizes and that is it.
They are not keeping the prizes. What they are doing is running tournements off schedule and using those prizes for those tournaments.
Does Whiz Kids mind something like this?
Also, is there a requirment on what level prize you get for each? As in 1st place has to be X level, 2nd place Y level. Fellowship Z level?
Also, is there LEs set aside for the Venue and Judge?
Originally posted by Dexceus
Specificly, how stringent is Whiz Kids about the fellowship prize?
There is a local venue that does not give out the fellowship prize at all. 1st and 2nd place gets prizes and that is it.
They are not keeping the prizes. What they are doing is running tournements off schedule and using those prizes for those tournaments.
Does Whiz Kids mind something like this?
Also, is there a requirment on what level prize you get for each? As in 1st place has to be X level, 2nd place Y level. Fellowship Z level?
Also, is there LEs set aside for the Venue and Judge?
Actually I have been to one place in Twinsburg, OH that the Judge/Owner/Player sets aside one for himself. I also don't think that the judge should be allowed to play & I think the Judge and Venue should be two diffrent people. Definately, the Judge should NOT be allowed to pocket one of the LEs
B5Garak
Originally posted by b5garak
Thanks, Jon. I hope now you can see how I was so frustrated. Oh one thing, where can I report activity like this to?
Send an email to Envoysupport@wizkidsgames.com and give them all the details. Stores like that must be dealt with as soon as possible.
heroclixguru
03/04/2003, 11:58
I feel like my venue filters the prizes because they are always the least valued prizes. Also, I've seen LEs for sale on EBAY from the same venue.
The problem with Clobbering Time is there is only about 1 or 2 months for prize support left. Afterwards it should be Xplosion. There are 20 LEs in Clobbering Time. This creates a cutthroat attitude for venues, collectors, and players. In my opinion the LEs would not be selling so high if wizkid supported CT prizes for an extended period of time.
:(
I also need to ask if the venue can play in the tournament or not.
In my opinion, i dont see a problem with the Venue (Owner or Operator) playing. Its when the Judge is playing; that creates the conflict of interest.
B5
scowlingone
03/04/2003, 20:33
Originally posted by b5garak
What I don't think is fair about LE's is that either you got to play cheesy teams to win them (Firelord, Wasp, etc)
Baloney.
My tournament record is in my .sig. I've used Firelord exactly twice in tournament play.
I took second place in a 200-point tourney without using a single flyer, leader, or free mover.
It's all about strategy. I am absolutely convinced that a skilled player playing a team of randomly-assorted models can consistently beat an average player with a finely-tuned tournament team.
Heck, I came in second in a 200-point tourney, playing a team that had no models with RCE or Invulnerability.
Originally posted by Dexceus
Also, is there a requirment on what level prize you get for each? As in 1st place has to be X level, 2nd place Y level. Fellowship Z level?
I don't know if it's "official" Wizkids policy or not, but what the judge in my area does is open all the LEs and place them on the table. 1st place gets his choice, 2nd place gets next pick, and fellowship gets whatever is left. Personally, I like this approach. At least you have a choice in what your getting and if you already have the "big" prize, you can choose something else that you don't have. This also allows those who consitently finish 2nd to get a biggie too.
AshenFang
03/04/2003, 20:54
I personally don't pass out a 'Fellowship' prize. As I find that choosing a person above others only tends to create problems. (And there are simply times that none of the players show that which is becoming of such a prize.)
All three of the LE's are added to the prize pot with the figures from the boosters which they are required to purchase for entry.
(Making the prize pot usually rather large, and also makes it so that everyone will walk away with something.)
If we have 'left over' LE's, they are eventually tossed into the Pot as well.. this last Week had Six LE's in it. ;)
I, myself don't care for them.. ..and the Venue doesn't get involved really. (And in truth, it seems our players actually prefer Uniques to the LEs.)
In any case, do I think it's right to keep them as a Judge? Not at all..
Do I think Judges kinda get the slimmer of the pickings? ..yeah..heh.. but we get other things I supppose. Though as many had mentioned, being able to turn points in for LEs wouldn't suck. =p And perhaps we'd have a few less 'corrupt judges'.
But I don't feel that just because YOU think somethings off , means they are automatically corrupt. Give them a chance before you go to burn the witches.
I find that some people on these boards do nothing but complain about venues/judges/prizes.. ..not a single mention of the good things which are given to them.
That's all for now.
scowlingone
03/04/2003, 21:14
Originally posted by AshenFang
I personally don't pass out a 'Fellowship' prize. As I find that choosing a person above others only tends to create problems. (And there are simply times that none of the players show that which is becoming of such a prize.)
We put it up to a vote at the venues I play at. The Judge only picks one in the case of a tie.
Artie Deco
03/04/2003, 21:42
FWIW...
I was a volunteer tournament director for Decipher (Star Wars CCG). Decipher would send the "TD" prize support after the TD sent them results from their tournament, which included players' names, addresses, phone numbers and emails. That helped cut down on venues keeping prize support for themselves, and encouraged TDs to update tournament results as quickly as possible.
Recently Decipher has begun giving TDs three premium foil cards for their tournaments, one for first place, one for second, and one to give away randomly. I can not emphasize enough how important that random prize was. Players who are mediocre will still come to your tournament and play if there is just a chance that they will win a prize. When prizes only go to first, second and third place, players who continually place fourth or lower get discouraged and will stop coming. More often than not, we Decipher TDs tried to have something for everybody, even if it was just a single random booster pack.
Originally posted by scowlingone
We put it up to a vote at the venues I play at. The Judge only picks one in the case of a tie.
We do the same. In the event of a tie, everyone re-votes just on the players that tied the first time around. The judge stays completely out of it.
AshenFang
03/04/2003, 21:49
Well, that sounds good, but I'm a constant cynic. =p
What would you guys do if a decent sized group of friends come, and decide to all vote for the same guy in their group. So that he automatically wins? No matter the attitude of the player? (Of course revolving to a different player every week.)
Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think my players would do this.. I'm actually lucky and have a decent group of guys. ;)
scowlingone
03/04/2003, 21:53
Originally posted by AshenFang
What would you guys do if a decent sized group of friends come, and decide to all vote for the same guy in their group. So that he automatically wins? No matter the attitude of the player? (Of course revolving to a different player every week.)
Let them. If that doesn't encourage the rest of the players to bring their own friends, that's their lookout. Part of the goal of a tourney is to maximize player involvement and hence maximize customer flow-through for the venue, after all.
We get as many as a dozen people for each of the weekly tourneys in town. Very few people have won more than one Fellowship prize .I've won none, but only because I rarely place less than 2nd. ;)
AshenFang
03/04/2003, 21:56
We get about a Dozen as well, but I know at least three times that which play. Though at this time I'm lucky that they all don't come at once. ;) A dozen fills us nicely. (We could easily fit 16 or so.. but ya know.)
Originally posted by AshenFang
...I find that some people on these boards do nothing but complain about venues/judges/prizes.. ..not a single mention of the good things which are given to them.
For the record I would say 75% of the places I have been to have been decent honest venues with good judges. I just want to go on the record to say thanks to all those venues and judges.
I have just been frustrated lately because of that other 25% and we seem to have our share here in Northeast Ohio.
B5Garak
razz10555
03/05/2003, 00:22
at the store I go to they have the uniques in a display case, one day a kid traded his frank schlicting LE for some rev's they put the le in with the uniques, when the wizkids rep saw this when he was in the store one day, he threatened to take away prize support because he thought they were selling le's on a regular basis, what I'm getting at is if you know a store is selling prize support rather than giving it away to tourney wunners, turn them into wizkids
AshenFang
03/05/2003, 00:31
Originally posted by razz10555
at the store I go to they have the uniques in a display case, one day a kid traded his frank schlicting LE for some rev's they put the le in with the uniques, when the wizkids rep saw this when he was in the store one day, he threatened to take away prize support because he thought they were selling le's on a regular basis, what I'm getting at is if you know a store is selling prize support rather than giving it away to tourney wunners, turn them into wizkids
..tell me if I misread something..
A kid traded his property(The LE) for that of a Store's(Some REV).
And you think they should be turned in for selling the LE?:rolleyes:
And in reference to: The_Realest.
Don't see this guy sticking around for long.;)
Originally posted by AshenFang
..tell me if I misread something..
A kid traded his property(The LE) for that of a Store's(Some REV).
And you think they should be turned in for selling the LE?:rolleyes:
And in reference to: The_Realest.
Don't see this guy sticking around for long.;)
I think you missed something. What I got from it, was the kid traded the LE for some REVs. The store owner put it in a display case. Whiz Kids rep came and saw it. Before the Whiz Kids rep got the full story, he got kind of upset.
I didn't read at all where the poster thought he should be reported.
As for The_Realest, we can hope he goes away soon.
AshenFang
03/05/2003, 00:42
Originally posted by razz10555
what I'm getting at is if you know a store is selling prize support rather than giving it away to tourney wunners, turn them into wizkids
Well, that's what I thought he was getting at, till I read this part, heh.. *shrug* ..either way.
Onward.
scowlingone
03/05/2003, 00:52
Originally posted by Dexceus
As for The_Realest, we can hope he goes away soon.
Sooner than any of us thought, I think. No warning level, just gone, poof. I love this place. :)
Originally posted by scowlingone
Sooner than any of us thought, I think. No warning level, just gone, poof. I love this place. :)
Well, I saw that his warning level had gone up and thought 'Yeah, I should report those'. I reported one of the posts and went to do the other post and it was gone. Now it looks like he is gone.
I wonder how long it will take for him to make a new account?
AshenFang
03/05/2003, 01:07
Well, figure either he won't, as he saw how quickly his behavior would not be tolerated.
Or will make another account, just to cause unrest.
*shrug*
Don't get me wrong, I can be rude.. but that was just uncalled for. =p
I think I missed something, who is the "The_Realest?"
Oldguynewbie
03/05/2003, 10:15
and on here more than is healthy. On the other hand, it sounds like all we missed was someone making a butt of hmself. That I don't mind missing.
Originally posted by scowlingone
It's all about strategy. I am absolutely convinced that a skilled player playing a team of randomly-assorted models can consistently beat an average player with a finely-tuned tournament team.
I disagree. If I give you a team of random models who have no attack value greater than say 8 and deal no more than 2 damage and have no special powers allowing them to inflict damage directly on invulernable characters then face you against an invulnerable 18 defense team, it won't matter how skilled you are if you can't even hit or damage your opponent. Thats not a factor of skill, thats a factor of being able to make high enough rolls to actually hit and/or actually being able to do damage. :P
I consider myself a good player, but I know I can't take a team of 50 rookiee thugs up against a veteran thor and an experienced she hulk team, and expect to win. No amount of skill can save an all thug team in that situation.
Yes if you're a good player you'll maximize the amount of damage you can do and try your best to really wallop on your opponent, but with the wrong pieces it doesn't matter how good you are unless you've got rigged dice ;p
* * *
I for one have never been happy seeing LEs constantly handed to the same people, and I also am from the decipher tradition of giving everyone a reasonable chance to get something even if they don't get first or second - it really does help.
As for venue abuse, well I hate it, and I've occassionally seen things that make me pause and wonder about my venues, but usually they're pretty good and I've been relatively satisfied with them. The witch hunt mentality does tend to make everyone edgy and part of it is because of the volume of LEs in the short time that people have to get them. That's not positive.... and not good for anyone.
* * *
I love seeing 20 LEs for a set, but not if we have less than no time to try to get them. Or if we have to travel halfway across the world to even have a half a chance of ever getting one for ourselves.. etc. Convention support and all is great, but um, a lot of areas are going to miss out on some cool pieces because of things like what happened at gencon with antman/yellowjacket - etc and bad LE distribution. I mean fine, you should have a chance to get something special, but its really irritating for everyone else to never even have an opprotunity - and that can rankle people, and make them want to stop playing.
Also, I don't like seeing venues constantly getting sent repeats of figs.... I've seen month after month after month where my venues have constantly gotten jervis tetch and mad hatter. We didn't even see a harley quinn here till last month... and we haven't Ever seen Laura brown. We've only seen 2 arthur currys as well. (between 2 venues and a lot of tournaments monthly) - and they just haven't gotten them, so we know its not the venue's fault.
DC LEs are reasonably priced, and are about the right rarity for what they are - and really cool to boot, problem is - the number vs/ amount of time they've been out has hurt them a bit. A smaller LE set is much nicer and better for everyone concerned, especially when the next expansion is due out shortly afterwards. On the other hand if there's going to be a huge lull between sets than a larger LE set is merited... *shrug*
I want to quickly share with all of you what happened today at a tournament that I attended, before I am off to play some Warcraft III Expansion Beta.
Another player and I got to the finals and we both had pretty good teams. In the end I lost, partly because we had a Lady run in in the middle of the tournament with her son who had slipped outside and broke a tooth and was threatening to sue the place, which distracted me. (In this case I had to stick up for the venue)
But ok cool I came in second.
The prizes were: Doombot LE, Electra LE & Paibok LE (spelling?)
The guy who won, which I will say was a nice guy, (not a powergamer or anything) and he already had a Doombot LE but needed a Paibok LE. However he chose the Doombot, cause "I can always sell it on ebay and get $50+" Now, not that I blame him, but this is getting ridicious that instead of picking one he didn’t already own, he picked the one that was artificially inflated in value on ###### ebay.
Any thoughts?
B5Garak
scowlingone
03/05/2003, 22:57
Garak:
The value of LE Doom on EBay is not due to any artificial inflation. Don't be silly.
That said, why does it matter why he picked Doom? How could you begrudge him picking it for whatever reason?
I would have done the same thing if I wanted Paibok -- I'd have taken Doom, sold him, then bought Paibok and pocketed the extra $30.
I've won ten LEs in tournament play, and have sold all but two of them. Is this somehow morally wrong? I decided that I'd rather have the cash to spend on Xplosion that to have the LEs. But in the final analysis, isn't what someone does with a tournament prize their own business?
Aron:
The odds of a random team being unable to damage an 18 Def Invulnerable character is so small as to be statistically close to zero. I don't need models that can do more than 2 damage. Incapacitate, Hypersonic, Super Strength, Force Blast, Mind Control, Probability Control -- all have the potential to cause damage to such models.
50 rookie thugs isn't a random assortment of models.
heroclixguru
03/05/2003, 23:16
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by scowlingone
It's all about strategy. I am absolutely convinced that a skilled player playing a team of randomly-assorted models can consistently beat an average player with a finely-tuned tournament team.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree. If I give you a team of random models who have no attack value greater than say 8 and deal no more than 2 damage and have no special powers allowing them to inflict damage directly on invulernable characters then face you against an invulnerable 18 defense team, it won't matter how skilled you are if you can't even hit or damage your opponent. Thats not a factor of skill, thats a factor of being able to make high enough rolls to actually hit and/or actually being able to do damage. :P
I consider myself a good player, but I know I can't take a team of 50 rookiee thugs up against a veteran thor and an experienced she hulk team, and expect to win. No amount of skill can save an all thug team in that situation.
Yes if you're a good player you'll maximize the amount of damage you can do and try your best to really wallop on your opponent, but with the wrong pieces it doesn't matter how good you are unless you've got rigged dice ;p
I agree with Scowling One even though I am not Canadian. JK...
I think the premise is correct. Strategy is the most important key to winning, then the team. Also, average pull would produce at least one figure with an attack greater than 8. And 50 rookie thugs is hardly random, eh? Personally I've played a ton more than scowlingone and bet I could beat his best head to head team. But I have to agree with him here.
dolemite199
03/06/2003, 00:06
Aron wrote,
I disagree. If I give you a team of random models who have no attack value greater than say 8 and deal no more than 2 damage and have no special powers allowing them to inflict damage directly on invulernable characters then face you against an invulnerable 18 defense team, it won't matter how skilled you are if you can't even hit or damage your opponent. Thats not a factor of skill, thats a factor of being able to make high enough rolls to actually hit and/or actually being able to do damage. :P
In defense of scowlingone I must defuct your argument. Scowlingone ment completely random. Your example is not random by any means. You have selected figures that are, in fact, not able to handle a powerhouse tournament team. Therefore, you have skewed the prospect of randomly drawing a team with only the figures you choose. We all know that a week attack will have a hard time hitting an 18 defense. Well all know that a character with only 2 damage will be unable to hurt an invulnerable character. This is not new news. However, I can bet money that if you were to pool one of every HC figure made to date (LE's excluded) and had a skilled player randomly draw eight figures from that pool to create a 200pt force, he/she could definately give a preconstructed tournament team a run for its money. That is what Scowlingone ment. Strategy is one of the most important parts of this game. But sometimes people forget that and powergame there way through tournaments. One thing they forget is that powergaming will lead you into making costly mistakes. I see it all the time with people. I am not flaming you. I was just pointing out that your example was flawed. If I have offended you, then please accept my condolences.
Everyone,
I like the current prize support structure for HC. There are some issues with dishonest venue/judges in areas, but it is not an epidemic. Wizkids has established that this type of fraudulent behavior is frowned upon. It is even illegal to do. Theft is still a crime. The prize support is given to judges/venues with the caveat that it will be distributed to the winners and best sportsman of tournaments. We can only report situations of judge/venue malfesence to Wizkids who will then handle the issue appropiately. Complaining about it does not help. If you feel that a judge/venue is scamming then investigate it. If you find that your assumptions are correct then make sure you document your findings and send the stuff to Wizkids. Eventually some judge/venue will become the proverbial "EXAMPLE" and this incredulous con will be stopped. Thats all I have to say about that.
P.S. I have not siad it before, so I will know. Duane, my local judge for HC, does an outstanding job of running tournaments, providing prizes, and ensuring that everyone who attends his events has a happy time clixing. And thanks to all of the other judges that voluteer their time so we can come together and play a fantastic game.
The End,
Originally posted by scowlingone
Garak:
The value of LE Doom on EBay is not due to any artificial inflation. Don't be silly.
When I say artificial inflation, i mean it is priced so high because of the spoiled rich kids and people who have more money then sense. And no I would never presume to say what you should do with your own property.
I am saying that I think it is wrong to be able to make $50+ off of someone's good intentions, in this case a Venue, the Judge, and Wizkids!
B5Garak
Yes Incapcitate, super strength (hypersonic and force blast when its available, and mind control all have the potential to be useful and helpful in defeating a team with invulnerablity, however thats not my point. And "any random team" doesn't necessarily include Any of those powers, or models with useful stats that have those powers.
I agree that 50 rookie thugs isn't a random assortment of models, however its an example of a team that doesn't stand a chance, and there are quite a few models that simply wouldn't stand a chance against specific other figs, even if you're a good player. No amount of strategy will be able to help a team that's not even remotely capable of inflicting damage, and that includes HSS, force blast, yadda yadda.
A lot of it has to do with how you build your team and if you don't factor in the typical powers that one sees, you're not going to stand a chance. For example, a current Aim/hydra team, while it might not have too much trouble hitting an 18 defense will have serious problems damaging it because they lack, 3 damage, incapacitate, mind control, super strength, blades claws. etc. A shield team on the other hand might do all right, if they can roll high enough to hit and only attempt shots with 9 attack value characters or higher till the DV drops to a 16 or so.
A team with a max 6 range will not pose a serious threat to a ten range character if your team has no fliers, etc. A team of all super strength characters or big close combat characters without charge, a flier, tker or some other way to get into combat will get ripped apart by a ranged team, etc.
If I gave you a team of say rookiee Puppet master, aim agent E, Skrull commando V, Knuckles LE, U Medusa, Rookiee Shield agent, rookiee quicksilver and an Experienced constrictor then told you to take on a Vet Thor say, you'd tell me you could beat him easily with Pure Strategy?
There Are combinations of characters who simply won't stand a chance against certain configurations, no matter How brilliant a player you are Unless you get very lucky, unless of course your opponent makes glaring errors.
heroclixguru
03/06/2003, 01:04
Originally posted by Aron
Yes Incapcitate, super strength (hypersonic and force blast when its available, and mind control all have the potential to be useful and helpful in defeating a team with invulnerablity, however thats not my point. And "any random team" doesn't necessarily include Any of those powers, or models with useful stats that have those powers.
I agree that 50 rookie thugs isn't a random assortment of models, however its an example of a team that doesn't stand a chance, and there are quite a few models that simply wouldn't stand a chance against specific other figs, even if you're a good player. No amount of strategy will be able to help a team that's not even remotely capable of inflicting damage, and that includes HSS, force blast, yadda yadda.
A lot of it has to do with how you build your team and if you don't factor in the typical powers that one sees, you're not going to stand a chance. For example, a current Aim/hydra team, while it might not have too much trouble hitting an 18 defense will have serious problems damaging it because they lack, 3 damage, incapacitate, mind control, super strength, blades claws. etc. A shield team on the other hand might do all right, if they can roll high enough to hit and only attempt shots with 9 attack value characters or higher till the DV drops to a 16 or so.
A team with a max 6 range will not pose a serious threat to a ten range character if your team has no fliers, etc. A team of all super strength characters or big close combat characters without charge, a flier, tker or some other way to get into combat will get ripped apart by a ranged team, etc.
If I gave you a team of say rookiee Puppet master, aim agent E, Skrull commando V, Knuckles LE, U Medusa, Rookiee Shield agent, rookiee quicksilver and an Experienced constrictor then told you to take on a Vet Thor say, you'd tell me you could beat him easily with Pure Strategy?
There Are combinations of characters who simply won't stand a chance against certain configurations, no matter How brilliant a player you are Unless you get very lucky, unless of course your opponent makes glaring errors.
ok, i give up... you can't be reasoned with. the point is a good player can beat most players with a random pull. No one except you is talking about the worst combination of figures. There is a website that produces random draws like this:
ic034 R Wasp 24
ic050 E Jean Grey 39
ic041 E Boomerang 34
ic036 V Wasp 37
ic035 E Wasp 33
ic060 V Hulk 147
ic042 V Boomerang 44
ic037 R Constrictor 37
ic052 R Hobgoblin 34
ic066 V Annihilus 129
ic072 V Spider-Man 110
ic028 R Wolfsbane 28
A good player could use this to build a 300 point team to demolish you. PERIOD!!!!
You ever watch South Park the movie. There's a song in the movie that's great.
scowlingone
03/06/2003, 01:14
Originally posted by Aron
"any random team" doesn't necessarily include Any of those powers, or models with useful stats that have those powers.
And the odds of me not getting any of these power, *and* not getting a 3-damage model, *and* not getting a taxi are how slim?
Remember, I said "consistently", not "every time."
If I gave you a team of say rookiee Puppet master, aim agent E, Skrull commando V, Knuckles LE, U Medusa, Rookiee Shield agent, rookiee quicksilver and an Experienced constrictor then told you to take on a Vet Thor say, you'd tell me you could beat him easily with Pure Strategy?
Oh, very much so. This is a good example, too. Quicksilver can easily get B2B with Thor. Thor will not be able to kill him in one shot. Thor thus is rendered unable to attack the rest of my team.
Three Incapacitate shots in that team? I'm going to take Thor apart like a jigsaw puzzle much of the time, and most of the time against an *average* player (which, again, is the crux of the argument).
Sorry; you have yet to construct a viable rebuttal of my thesis.
Originally posted by heroclixguru
...You ever watch South Park the movie. There's a song in the movie that's great.
If its the song I'm thinking of, thats not very nice guru :(
B5Garak
My point is, if you're not building your team to include those abilities and/or stats it doesn't matter how good a player you are. Team building is half the strategy for crying out loud!
Your assertions make it seem like there's no strategy at all involved in the team building!
Your thesis is based on the concept that a "great" player can take any random models and play against any average opponent's team and is practically guaranteed a win. You've admitted that it can be done consistently but not Every time, and certainly not if you're given useless models for a given situation, and that there are such models and such situations that actually exist! That is my point. I'm not trying to refute your "thesis" I'm trying to dispute the generalization which neglects half the fundamentals of the game.
At Least, HALF of the strategy to the game is choosing the most effective pieces you can for your play style, and Then playing effectively with those pieces. I'm not denying that people can play "weak" teams effectively if they have play know how, I'm saying there are some teams where it doesn't matter how skilled you are, against the wrong team you can only expect to lose, Even before you roll the dice, unless your opponent has no clue what they're doing. Examples: A mind control team will have a hard time against a battle fury team (Thats why half the mind controllers have been given incapacitate). A team without range will have a hard time against one with range. A team without the ability to inflict harm in any way will have a hard time against a toughness/invulnerable team. You can't dispute that.
As for the person who brought up the South Park song... I'm trying to bring up a point about the way vague generalizations having been made as if team building has little strategy to it. If you chose not to or are unable to see that point, thats not my fault, and resorting to an insulting attitude is not likely to get me to change my opinion or encourage a positive response towards your ideas. I have the right to disagree with a point of view that I feel is misrepresentational.
MCalamari
03/06/2003, 12:17
Originally posted by Aron
* * *
I for one have never been happy seeing LEs constantly handed to the same people, and I also am from the decipher tradition of giving everyone a reasonable chance to get something even if they don't get first or second - it really does help.
* * *
I love seeing 20 LEs for a set, but not if we have less than no time to try to get them.
I tend to agree with much of what you've said. While I've only played in one tournament (and didn't come close to first or second place), I've seen a tournament were a third place figure was awarded on the basis of good sportsmanship. Every player would nominate one player they played against (which means even if you voted for your buddy, you at least had to play against him/her). The player with the most votes got the third LE given out that day.
And I too totally agree that more diversity in the LEs is a good thing, but I'd hate to think the few CT LEs that I am really interested in will soon be impossible to find. Just how long are LEs being given out?
Originally posted by heroclixguru
There is a website that produces random draws like this:
ic034 R Wasp 24
ic050 E Jean Grey 39
ic041 E Boomerang 34
ic036 V Wasp 37
ic035 E Wasp 33
ic060 V Hulk 147
ic042 V Boomerang 44
ic037 R Constrictor 37
ic052 R Hobgoblin 34
ic066 V Annihilus 129
ic072 V Spider-Man 110
ic028 R Wolfsbane 28
What website is that?
heroclixguru
03/06/2003, 18:49
I'll answer on my behalf.
My point is, if you're not building your team to include those abilities and/or stats it doesn't matter how good a player you are. Team building is half the strategy for crying out loud!
I disagree it's only 1/3 percent of the strategy.
Your assertions make it seem like there's no strategy at all involved in the team building!
This was probably directed at ScowlingOne, which said its all about strategy. Picking a team is a skill that takes strategy. If you had only blasted him for this, then I would not of blasted you.
I'm not trying to refute your "thesis" I'm trying to dispute the generalization which neglects half the fundamentals of the game.
Like I said it's not HALF the fundamentals of the game. Strategy and ability to see the best move are the fundamentals not figure selection.
At Least, HALF of the strategy to the game is choosing the most effective pieces you can for your play style, Disagree and Then playing effectively with those pieces.Other way around! I'm not denying that people can play "weak" teams effectively if they have play know how, I'm saying there are some teams where it doesn't matter how skilled you are, against the wrong team you can only expect to loseDUH!!! , Even before you roll the dice, unless your opponent has no clue what they're doing. Examples: A mind control team will have a hard time against a battle fury team (Thats why half the mind controllers have been given incapacitate). A team without range will have a hard time against one with range. A team without the ability to inflict harm in any way will have a hard time against a toughness/invulnerable team. You can't dispute that. That was INSIGHTFUL, I must write this down!
As for the person who brought up the South Park song LOL!!! Take a joke... I'm trying to bring up a point about the way vague generalizations having been made as if team building has little strategy to it.Another assumption, I stated skill is more important. This quote is from someone else, or you made it up! If you chose not to or are unable to see that pointWhat are you talking about? You're dispute is not the issue. The issue is you don't understand what RANDOM means. You used an example in previous posts with 50 thugs as an example. You got flamed for overstating your point., thats not my fault, and resorting to an insulting attitude is not likely to get me to change my opinion or encourage a positive response towards your ideas. I have the right to disagree with a point of view that I feel is misrepresentational.At first you stated No one can beat a HTH team with 50 thugs(no kidding), and your other non-random pick of characters. The issue of your original posts is RANDOM does not mean 50 thugs or that other silly list you had! Understand?! Stating that the ability to pick teams is at least half the skill, is not the reason you got flamed. Although I contest it is NOT the most important SKILL in the game. All this other stuff is your big assumptions, lack of understanding, or stating obvious points to back your point up. You lose any credibility in your points because of exagerations.
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