X-Plosion = X-Crement

[thechuck]

After looking through the warriors section at the X-Plosion figures, I could not be more disappointed with this set. In fact, I'm giving Wizkids a month or two to come out with some sort of over-haul of the rules or something that will keep the game from being broken, otherwise, I will be sell of my collection and quitting.

Looking through the set, I have never seen so much cheese in my entire life. What's with every 3rd figure having perplex? I realize there wasn't alot of it in Marvel, but, can you say overcompensation? At this rate the next DC set will probably have probability control on half the figures.

From all my initial observations, I can see the 20-30% of clixers who cheese out and use firelord and rookie Black Panther on every team getting really excited over this set. For the rest of us how like to play, have fun, and not cheese out like worthless pieces of X-Crement, this is going to ruin the game.

Here's some cheese combinations I can already see our local Velveta heads using:

E Ultron 139
E Whirlwind 32
R Con Artist (who looks like a drag queen prostitute) X3 33

Now, for 204 points, you can perplex Whirlwind's damage to 5, taxi him up with ultron and have 2 attacks with 13 AV for 5 damage. WTF is up with that?

Or... Psycheese
How's this team?

139 E Ultron
34 E Boomerang
29 R Psycheese
15 R Vulture
38 V Doombot
33 E Wasp
12 R Hydra Medic

In the same round you can taxi up Tron, Boom and Cheese and do two mutlishot enhanced explosions. WTF is up with that? Like mutli-shot explosions really needed to be MORE powerful?

Did with need a free move, 20 point PB fig with super senses? Really? That's a 50% chance of not getting hit no matter what the opponants AV.

Do we really need a Stealth Perplexer for barely more than Harley Quinn?

Instead of admitting their mistakes with lamo characters like Firelord and Rookie Black Panther, they're just making more lamo characters to make them not stand out so badly as cheese.

I am a Judge and a die-hard player... for now at least. I run tournaments and try to run scenarios to keep things interesting and fun and keep the local cheese weasels from ruining other player's good time. However, WK is just making it harder and harder.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt... for now. Perhaps there might be some game mechanic changes soon that will help mitigate this stuff. However, I'm not holding my breath.

If someone doesn't change my mind soon I will sell off my collection and try to find someone else to take over my weekly tournaments to keep the 6-12 people who show up every week playing... provided they don't quit due to cheese as well.

To add insult to injury this is another 12 unique in a 96 figure set, which, is a BS money grubbing ploy by WK to sell more boosters.

[Mournblade]

:rolleyes:

[Veggiehater]

No cheese came out in X-plosion. The "cheese" you are pointing out actually came out in IC (Ultron).

Unless they change some of the IC figs, any set that comes out will just make them even stronger. It's not X-plosions fault it was ICs.

VH

[Deadpool91]

quit your whining, this set looks amazing. it's all in fun, if your worried about teams like that, maybe your not good enough to get around them. it's all equal, cause you have the power just like them to bring out any team you want.

[lukebuchanan]

I can see your point somewhat, but there are ways around it. If you see a con-artist on the board you know they have to push to get to that perplex. This is the snag WK instituted so that you wouldn't have endless Firelord combos. Just wait and play it, and if anyone puts that hooker on the same table as me then they'll taste Savage Hulk pain.


LUKE SMASH

[Dexceus]

Compare and contrast:

'Mommy I am going to hold my breeath until you give me what I want'

'If Whizkids doesn't change the rules to make the game the way I want it, I am going to sell my figs and stop playing'

I would say to post when you start selling your figs, but I am not too far from a complete set at the moment.

[AZS]

What, the other half a dozen whiney posts weren't good enough for you?

You couldn't just post to these complainers:

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28586

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29214

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29058

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29230



You had to start yet another one?

[de4dp00l]

Go away. Seriously. Sell your stuff and go, if it bothers you that much. I doubt anyone will miss your presence at game night or tournament time, considering your attitude. This set is full of potential, and if you can't see that, it's your loss.

Best wishes in whatever game you find yourself playing next.

[Funky Jett]

Hey Chuck... This will be the first time I have ever told someone this in all my years of playing competitive games...

Go ahead and quit. We won't even notice you're gone. In fact, we didn't even know you were here until now.

So go ahead and quit. Sell your figures and move to another game that you can complain about.

Go ahead and quit. WizKids has tested this set and all the sets. They won't be making any rules overhaul just because one whiney kid can't learn to adapt.

Go on... quit. You know you are going to anyway. Otherwise you wouldn't have made the threat. I've seen it too many times before. I've seen it here too many times, too. People will post "I'm leaving" when no one knew they were here. It's called an "inflated sense of importance". People see themselves as being more important than they really are. They want people to come and post, "Oh no... don't leave! It won't be the same without you!" I'm here to tell you Chuck, it will be EXACTLY the same without you.

Go ahead and quit.

[the itsy bit]

NIGHTCRAWLER ?

yep the Rookie Con artist is just asking for it !

the rest of the set isn't overpowered/broken though !!

[Mournblade]

Unmitigated hyperbole.

The increase in Perplex is going to add to the game. It'll press life into formerly forgotten figures (Juggernaut for one) and add more variation.

This is what is called the 'Straw Man' method of debate. You present a fallable example and then use that to base all your decisions. It is ignorant and juvenile, the grandstanding, 'I'm judge and cry cry cry me a ri-iii-ver as I sell all my Clix!' aside.

Some counters: Con Artists need to be pushed, so enjoy while I take advantage of your spent actions. Use Pulse Wave and you've just made sure 1.) an enemy figure is nearby, 2.) all your figures are damage, and 3.) that I will probably be able to damage them all and get them dead or right past Perplex (my favorite). Whirlwind's dial is not deep and his defense isn't fantastic.

The second example loses me. An Enhancement added Energy Explosion is forcing you to leave the game? Then you should have left at Infinity Challenge because of the pushed Dr. Strange/Ultron teams.

Forget it, you're just a ranting child too fearful of change. The sky is not falling, water is still wet, the game is getting better. Take a deep breath, try decaf. Better yet, sell your Clix and stop posting, this is a forum for people that like and enjoy Heroclix.

In the words of Geoffrey Grabowski, "Sometimes it doesn't hurt to lose the sale."

[Deathlok23]

C'mon guys,


Give Chuck a break. WTF, he is entitled to his own opinions. It's total BS that your giving him such a hard time. Just because both his teams won't work the way he wants them to isn't a reason to call him a whiner. WTF? And most of all he never once said "SUCK"!:rolleyes:

[Vegeta1]

"Go away. Seriously. Sell your stuff and go, if it bothers you that much. I doubt anyone will miss your presence at game night or tournament time, considering your attitude. This set is full of potential, and if you can't see that, it's your loss."

Geez, what is it with some of you people????

The man has a right to his opinion. He hasn't insulted anyone and he's allowed to share his feelings whether they're pro or con for the game. Instead of trying to see his point of view and being civil about it, all you can say is "I doubt anybody will miss your presence"?????

Real smooth there, money.......

[Funky Jett]

WTF is borken! ;)

asz said it best... "What, the other half a dozen whiney posts weren't good enough for you?"

Deathlok23, it's not that his teams won't work... it's that he won't even TRY. That is whining at it's worst. He's giving up before the game has even started. Personally I think it's pathetic.

[Rynth]

Originally posted by Mournblade

Use Pulse Wave and you've just made sure 1.) an enemy figure is nearby[/i]

you can pulsewave as long as multiple figures(either enemy and/or friendly) are in range or a single enemy is in range. Pulsewave gets around the whole "can't target your own figures" rule by effecting, not targeting, when multiple figures are in range.

[Thorgrin]

Hey Chuck, I know where you're coming from, I'd just wait to see how it looks before jumping the band wagon. I think I heard some other people argue that vampire lackeys would rule the able and I hardly, if ever, saw that. The potential to abuse is there, but if it happens the first time, then people will start building teams to really beat that team down and so forth. The only problem with your scenario is this.

Ultron can only fly a range of 10. It takes much longer than that to get to the other side. The way to counter that is either put up a barrier or two or have people put a barrier behind ultron/whirlwind (thus cutting off LOS to the perplexers) and then ganging up on two figures that are cut from their support.

Hope that helps alleviate some concerns.

[Mournblade]

Originally posted by Vegeta1
The man has a right to his opinion. He hasn't insulted anyone and he's allowed to share his feelings whether they're pro or con for the game. Instead of trying to see his point of view and being civil about it, all you can say is "I doubt anybody will miss your presence"?

He has a right to his opinion, but people always forget that he also has a right to people's reactions. If announcing you're a bigot, don't expect equal treatment. If announcing I hate him, I'm not going to expect to be his best friend. He should expect the same when announcing 'X-Plosion = X-Crement'.

This is my reaction. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Insert opinion all you like.

He's insulting Jon and the people at Wizkids. Complain all you want, but can ya' hold back the feces comments? Start a topic with fecal in the title and you're going to get fecal in the posts. The dingleberry effect of posting, k?

Jon happens to be man that I think has it together. I look at Iron Man and love it. Destiny, primo work. Mystique, the man had enough strength of character to own up to the fact Shapeshifting wasn't good enough to represent Mystique. Love him or hate him (in which case why are you here) the man knows what he's doing and deserves a little more credit than 'X-Plosion = X-Crement'.

So, no, Vegeta. TheChuck doesn't deserve us to be nice to him no more than he was nice to the hours of work the man put in making each figure. Until that time, until people like theChuck start being nice, start showing a little respect, start NOT ACTING LIKE TWO YEAR OLDS, then all I want them to do is shut up and go somewhere else.

[Thunderbolts]

Now, for 204 points, you can perplex Whirlwind's damage to 5, taxi him up with ultron and have 2 attacks with 13 AV for 5 damage. WTF is up with that?

Shoot Whirlwind. Low defense, drops off quickly.

In the same round you can taxi up Tron, Boom and Cheese and do two mutlishot enhanced explosions. WTF is up with that? Like mutli-shot explosions really needed to be MORE powerful?

Nobody seriously bunches up if there's an Ultron in play, it's suicide. Barriers are your friend.

Did with need a free move, 20 point PB fig with super senses? Really? That's a 50% chance of not getting hit no matter what the opponants AV.

Destiny has a horrible defense rating and will never be able to fight. Even with Super Senses, she's not infallible. Sure, she can use PC to reroll her senses, but then she can't help her team-mates. One moderate hit is all it will take usually to make her useless.

Do we really need a Stealth Perplexer for barely more than Harley Quinn?

Mystique will be a powerful piece, sort of like Black Panther, a crucial power while stealthed. Hardly borken though, since Panther can be dealt with easily enough (hit her or block her LOF).

Instead of admitting their mistakes with lamo characters like Firelord and Rookie Black Panther, they're just making more lamo characters to make them not stand out so badly as cheese.

You seem to be just blaming the Ic set figures and not the others... so why complain about XP?

Will Perplex on every third fig mess up the game? Unknown. On nearly every figure who brings it to the table, it doesn't last for many clicks and is easy to get rid of. Con Artists have pathetic stats, Destiny stands a chance of hitting them (ok, maybe not) and need to be pushed.

Where one player brings in a ton of Perplex, the other brings solid stat figures to smack the 'plexers around. Seems balanced to me.

[Noman]

Every new figure improves the game environment.

No stratagy is unbeatable.

I played Firelord/Panther/Witch/Medic in a sanctioned tourney and came third (winner used Rogue/Wolverine/Sheild Sniper, second used Darkseid and DeSaad). I'm a reasonably good player, but I was beaten by good play - not by uberfigs - nor did my uberfigs rule the day.

Yes, I can see the glowing John Stewart Green Lantern taxiing in 8 Perplexers, and facing Crimson Dynamo, Unique Electra and Deathbird, and going HA !

...and it's all part of the fun !

In a community-development game like a ccg or cmg, the same figs do not dominate, cos every two months, something new comes along and goes SPLAT ! on your supposed Uber plan/team/fig/stratagy.

Please God may it be every two months forever !!!

(...and if you do quit, send me your figs ??? )

LoL

All the Best

Noman

[sluggo]

thechuck - Let me know which figures you have, I may want to buy some from you.

[Vegeta1]

"He has a right to his opinion, but people always forget that he also has a right to people's reactions. If announcing you're a bigot, don't expect equal treatment."

You're comparing his opinion on the game to bigotry? Apples and oranges, my man.




"He's insulting Jon and the people at Wizkids."

Where did he insult Jon? I sure don't see it. He simply expressed his dislike of the new set. That HARDLY qualifies as an insult.



"So, no, Vegeta. TheChuck doesn't deserve us to be nice to him"

So far, most others on this board ARE trying to see his point of view and are giving counter-strategies to help him out. You are in the minority here as far as treating him disrespectfully.

Again, he has a RIGHT to his opinion without you being so disrespectful to your fellow poster on this board.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Vegeta1
Again, he has a RIGHT to his opinion without you being so disrespectful to your fellow poster on this board.

The fact that he is being disrespectful of WizKids is ok? No, I don't think so.

He doesn't even want to try to do anything about it... and the set isn't even out yet! He just wants to quit.

Well, wahhhhhhhh... He can take his toy figures and go home as far as I'm concerned.

[sunchaser]

I think it's safe to say that calling anything excrement is insulting.

[k0rnkid15]

dude r u stupid? this expansion kicks ace! IC was kind of a let down, but it was ok. i dont see y u gotta whine about something that is actualy good. :mad:

[falcarrion]

Is disapointing for a judge to start a thread like this. before you start bashing the set play it first.
Or is this how you Judge?
If you don't like firelords do you judge against the player that uses one.

There is an old saying:

Don't judge a book by its cover.

[Vegeta1]

"He doesn't even want to try to do anything about it... and the set isn't even out yet! He just wants to quit."

Ok, so why don't you try and see his point of view and give alternate strategies in order to help a fellow gamer stay in the game.

[Mournblade]

Originally posted by Vegeta1
Where did he insult Jon? I sure don't see it. He simply expressed his dislike of the new set. That HARDLY qualifies as an insult.

Originally posted by thechuck
X-Plosion = X-Crement

Looking through the set, I have never seen so much cheese in my entire life.

not cheese out like worthless pieces of X-Crement

Instead of admitting their mistakes with lamo characters like Firelord and Rookie Black Panther, they're just making more lamo characters to make them not stand out so badly as cheese.

a BS money grubbing ploy by WK to sell more boosters.

k?

[Vegeta1]

To a certain degree...I agree with him.

But by NO MEANS did he insult Jon, saying anything like "he sucks" or "he's an idiot" or somesuch.

He just doesn't like the new set.

There's a difference.

Is it really THAT difficult to show some compassion to a frustrated fellow gamer??????

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Vegeta1
Ok, so why don't you try and see his point of view and give alternate strategies in order to help a fellow gamer stay in the game.

I don't have any strategy for figures I don't have yet. Besides, he said he was going to quit if they didn't overhaul the rules. WK won't, so by his own words, he is already gone.

I find it interesting that he posted this and remained online for quite some time, but hasn't replied to anyone's post (so far). I take that as proof that he has already quit the game.

[Remy Lebeau]

The Chuck- I'd like to point somthing out to you.

Heroclix, as far as I'm concerned is a game of strategy. I also believe it's composed of two things within that.

1- The mental- Having a good Strategy

2- Luck- rolling what you need to execute that Strategy

Now, your complaining that there's all these "NEW" and "Overpowered" figures in the game. Thats fine, thats your opinion. I may even be inclined to agree with you that some figures are overpowered.

You chose to do this-
" If I cant have everything my way, I quit."

Which is childish to say the least.

What you should have done is this-
" If I cant have everything my way, I'll think or a new strategy to beat overpowered figures....

or...

use overpowered figures to my advantage."

Think about it

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Mournblade
I look at Iron Man and love it.

You had a point until you got to here.

I don't think putting a thug in Iron Man's armor quite represents the character. This character is going to be the biggest disappointment in the set. How do I know? Look at the AV on the Iron Man - E and compare it to the Human Torch - E. How many players love using the Human Torch - E? At least Human Torch - E only costs 59 points.

Other than that, I like the set, especially the mix of X-Characters to field an old or new team, and I don't think all of the perplex is going to hurt the game. The same argument is being made about HT and outwit and that isn't true either.

[Vegeta1]

"I don't have any strategy for figures I don't have yet."

Just read Remy Lebeau's comment. His post was perfect. He obviously has a different opinion YET gave counter-strategies and ideas so that a fellow gamer would stay in the game.

[MarkStewart]

This is a great set, let's have some fun with. If you don't like cheesy teams then don't use one. I beat the cheesy Firelord teams all the time just by using characters that I like.

[Remy Lebeau]

thank you friend

[thechuck]

Originally posted by Mournblade

He's insulting Jon and the people at Wizkids. Complain all you want, but can ya' hold back the feces comments? Start a topic with fecal in the title and you're going to get fecal in the posts. The dingleberry effect of posting, k?

Well, I certainly didn't expect people not to fire back at me. That's fine. However, the difference between me and Jon and the people at WK is that they get PAID to make the game and I PAY to play it. That being said, people can flame on...

I probably stated things a little harshly... perhaps more than I should have. However, that's because I do (or did) have a passion for this game. I have invested a considerable amount of time, energy and money into this game just like the rest of you. I work hard to try and keep the game fun and interesting with various scenarios for ALL players who come to my tournaments, not just the ones willing to cheese out. As of late, we have had one of the best draws in the Portland area (1.6 million people)

However, when I see a set come out with so much potential for abuse, it's a little deflating. Maybe I was spitting out more venom than was needed or warrented, but, that's only because I care.

The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

I guess I'll have to wait and see on how this set works out and hope that the new DC set doesn't have 15 people with probability control. We'll see.

[stylinsid]

sell it all to me for a dollar since there will be no rules revamp

[Vegeta1]

Mark S: "This is a great set, let's have some fun with. If you don't like cheesy teams then don't use one. I beat the cheesy Firelord teams all the time just by using characters that I like."

Well said, my friend.



Remy: "thank you friend"

You're more than welcome.

[Vegeta1]

"However, when I see a set come out with so much potential for abuse, it's a little deflating. Maybe I was spitting out more venom than was needed or warrented, but, that's only because I care."

Hey man, most of us realize this. I'm feelin' you.

You're more than welcome to state you're opinion as long as you don't insult anyone. Just give the game a chance.:D

[Remy Lebeau]

i sure wish Mr. Rogers was here to see this.

Good people solving problems, together, using effective means to do so.

i sure miss Mr. Rogers :(

[LuckyJ]

This thread is the greatest laugh I've had in...well...since I saw Iron Man's attack value....But that's beside the matter at hand.

Mournblade: I totally agree with you. You're my favorite poster on HC realms. I particularly like the ":rolleyes: " at the beginning of the thread. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Vegeta, Peaceniks, et al.: You're also right on the fact that the people on this board have stated their anger rudely and immaturely. There are better ways to communicate the same things, most of the time, but this is not one of them.

My own opinion: Everyone has a right to their opinion. Everyone has the right to express their opinion (well...most of the time, that is). BUT...DUDE! What's with all these people thinking they can tell the future? It was tired and old to gripe about a set before it came out back with DC! It was still tired and old when CT came out! What the hell is different now?

Now I have just one question that I want answered:

If you spend the points, shouldn't you have the ability to use them?

5 perplexers = at least 55 points = 5 additional damage to an attacking fig.

Don't you think you could find a character(s) who could do 5 damage for 55 points otherwise?? I mean, with U Elektra and a few other characters, these perplexers look INEFFICIENT in game play!

So answer my question...if you spend the points shouldn't you be able to use them?

Thanks for the time and...I'll up the bid on Chuck's collection to $1.50

[Spinebreaker]

TheChuck is entirely entitled to ANY opinion he wants to voice...

However if he comes into the forum and says things along the lines of...

>>>For the rest of us how like to play, have fun, and not cheese out like worthless pieces of X-Crement, this is going to ruin the game.<<<

He should expect reactions.

If you can't deal with a reaction don't say anything inflamatory.

That said, there does seem to be an incredible abundance of perplex in the set. However, like Firelord, and Black Panther. A lot of people whine about non existant problems.

Firelord has never been broken, he never will. neither is Ultron. Neither is Black Panther.

There are NO characters in this game that 'ruin' it, or that can't be defeated with relative ease. I doubt X-plosion will change that.

[LuckyJ]

"the opposite of love is not hate its apathy."

Ummm...sure. Never heard that one, and I'm pretty sure why.

[Vegeta1]

"i sure wish Mr. Rogers was here to see this.

Good people solving problems, together, using effective means to do so."

I wish more fans thought this way.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Funky Jett


I don't have any strategy for figures I don't have yet.



I already have strategies about every fig posted on the Warriors section !

OK, maybe some of them won't be right after playing with them. But I already have.


11 points perplex figs are too good/cheese, I don't have to play to figure that out !!:rolleyes:

[Spinebreaker]

Hope I didn't sound too nasty there.

I expected TheChuck's post to get reactions, but not quite so much hate inspired tetchiness...

Chuck, I'd recomend getting a look at the set first, see how it plays... There's a few things about the set that are making me a little wary, **Apocalypse*** but I thought the same about some CT stuff and it was fine...

Get a look at the set and if you don't like it when it's out, don't buy it...

Remember all the stuff before CT about Vampire Lackeys and Doombots. Do we see armies of Doombots and Lackeys storming every tourney???

[Kid Zemo]

I am a (retired . . . sigh) judge and player in the Portland area. I play at games that 'thechuck' judges or plays in quite often. He is one of the best players in the area and judges at one of the most active venues.

The games he judges have a great mix of veterans and novices in attendance - often including kids - and the atmosphere is almost always fun and light hearted (the venue deserves a lot of credit for this. Things From Another World in Hollywood does a great job of creating an inviting atmosphere and encouraging younger or newer players to show up for events.)

Thechuck has always been a staunch opponent of cheese - many of his posts on this board have had that in common - and for good reason. We here in Portland have endured a long run of unfun players bringing cut throat armies. Some players have abandoned the scene because of it. That said, while some venues in the area have banned Firelord - thechuck's tournaments still allow him.

The scenario run this weekend was fun and different and I won the touney with a Mojo + Spiral combo team. He goes the extra mile for this game - working to make it fun for everyone and limiting cheese so that people who play uncommon teams can have fun and maybe even win. There is no question in my mind that he is a friend to this game.

I can understand some of his frustration even if I disagree on the main point (I'm REALLY looking forward to XPlosion) and his choice of original wording. Every time an expansion is released some folks get concerned that the game as they know it is dead. It happened with Hypertime. It happened with Clobberin' Time. It will continue to happen with each new expansion.

I hope you all can try and take is comments as they were intended (and not as stated) - a player and judge who is quite committed to this game venting frustration over what he sees as a trend that will make it even harder for him to limit cheese in his games and the tournaments he attends. I know it is frustrating to hear someone hating on something you are eagerly anticipating but know before you flame that the man behind the screen name is one of this area's best HC envoys. Everyone forgets to self-edit once in a while. Give him a break.

Kid Zemo

[AruthaEvanstil]

Vegeta1, my hat's off to ya! I been surfin the realms for months, and I finally see someone that wants to show people how to resolve, not add to problems. It's great to see someone that respects everyone's opinion and has an open mind to how other's play. I see other "popular" members of the realms adding to the problem at times........I'm glad someone has an open mind towards misunderstanding and solution.

Azs sure jetted outta this convo after he flamed chuck......

[razz10555]

I personally like Xplosion I've got a few & I can't wait until I can get the whole set. If you don't like it oh well, but what do you expect from someone who wrote "I will be sell of my collection and quitting"






haha it filters out the #### in #### grayson hahahah ####

[NateTG]

This is only my theory, but suspect that:

One reason that you see so much perplex in this set is to deal with the large stat disparities in the game. This set shows a large number of figures with "low" attack values. By putting cheap perplexers in the game, WK is trying to level the playing field somewhat.

Another reason that you see so much perplex is that WK is trying to reduce the power of Outwit and increase the power of Invulnerability. Against defensive powers other than Invulnerability and Mastermind, especially Stealth, Peplex is preferable to Outwit, so, by making Perplex available WK is making figures with Invulnerability stronger agaist the field.

Perplex is also an excellent way to deal with figures that have a small number of powerful clicks. If they can be taken from their useful clicks in one solid hit, they become much weaker.

Consider the following matching:
V Blizzard & 4 R Con Men (97 Points)
or
V Firelord (97 Points)

IIRC Blizzard is typically considered a weak figure, and Firelord one of the best in the game.

In general, perplex most favors the type of figure that is relatively unpopular right now: No RCE, no BCF, and average attack values.

Regardless, look to Storm to be this set's Firelord.

[Agentofthebat]

Well folks I feel everyone has the right to speak their mind. Yes even flamers...So reading this post, while mildly entertaining is about 20 minutes or so of my life I'll never get back. No biggie though
My advice for the folks that hate cheese? Don't eat pizza. One man's cheese is another man's strategy. The tournaments, although meant for fun, are contests with prizes. Some folks actually want to win the prizes. So all's fair in love, war, and heroclix.
I'm a judge and I've lost many a game to the imfamous firelord...so what. I've also beaten firelord done, I try to take on any challenge. Whatever doesn't break your figures makes you stronger.

[Remy Lebeau]

Originally posted by Vegeta1
"i sure wish Mr. Rogers was here to see this.

Good people solving problems, together, using effective means to do so."

I wish more fans thought this way.

Mr. Rogers hopes so too.

[StormMaster]

Whoever is saying this set is broken because of perplex...look at why there are so many that have it.

1. It suits the character
2. The average AV of certain characters is about 9 (just using the x-men and related chars as an example) A lot of people wouldn't be happy with that, however since the fact Beast and gambit have perplex, it makes the low AVs and numbers justified...thence balacing the game.

This set is in no way broken, I doubt any of you have even played it yet (unless you went to megacon), so how can you call a whole set x-crement or broken when you haven't even laid a finger on a booster yet??!!

[Zaymac25]

The only thing I see wrong with X-Plosion so far is that they didn't make a cheaper version of Firelord with 14 range, 4 bolts, ranged combat and perplex on the same dial, EE, Impervious with a Def. of 20 or higher and no KO slot's. But besides that X-plosion looks pretty good to me.

[DCFan#1]

I'll back up Azs here, why didn't this guy just post in any of the other ridiculous threads that have popped up? Why? Because he wants attention. He isn't getting it elsewhere, so he does this, and we post for pages and pages. It partially our fault.

So answer this, Portland area players...If you don't play with "cheese" and everythink seems to be "cheese" to you two, then what figures do you play with? I can't imagine the boring games you guys have..."my rookie Blizzard shoots your Hydra operative...again." Or is the Hydra ability "cheese."

One question for the guys who wants to sell all his figures and leave the game: Have you actually played with any of the X-Plosion figures yet? I didn't think so. Someone mentioned this earlier, but wasn't the world going to end when we all saw the Vampire Lackey with BCF? I seem to remember a lot of people worried about that. And where are the Vampire Lackey's now? Not in the games I play. Are they in yours?

Wait, that BCF might be cheese...

-Rich

[AruthaEvanstil]

This guy doesn't want attention, he wants to express his opinion and have that opnion responded too. I don't think he was looking for people to analyze him and act rudely about WHY he posted......maybe some shouldn't look at why he posted but HOW to help him.....

[tipplej]

Great thread!
Flames always make such interesting reading. With this thread you can really feel the strength of opinion and passion about the game. Let's be honest - I think we are all freinds really and if we were all in the same room, we would have a heated debate with the originator of the thread over a beer. That's what makes the game great. Just look at the number of threads here on this site. It's great!

Over in the UK, there are next to no tournaments, but my view is this.

Certainly if I entered one, I would use the nastiest, dirtiest team I could. I would want those LE's definitely!!! I dislike the word cheese, becuase is suggest almost cheating, which is unfair on the player who is just picking figures for points.

I can understand the originator's problem in that if he is running a tourney, and veteran players use very tough teams then the rookies may not enjoy it. But this displays the different player abilitys. Give them the same team and the rookie will still probably lose.

For me, the game is all about fun. The matches I play with my friend involve picking who you fancy using. I have a full set and get on well with a couple of perplexes, but I dont always want to use Riddler. I use figures that are not that good, like Kang or Klaw, because I enjoy he variety.

If my friend picks up two Firelords, I will do my best to beat him. I won't mind losing at all because he won't use them again and again. He likes variety. He loves using Scarlet Witch to be fair, which I often moan at, but we all have some preferences for figures. Every figure released helps give an infite combo of team choices, and that's what makes the game.

By definition I think your US tourneys are going to get these so-called teams. Competitive tourneys with people who are relentlessley after prizes will never be as much fun as palying at home where you pick whoever you fancy and dont mind losing.

You have to accept that the nature of the beast is that you may get 10 identical "cheese" teams in a tourney. That's the way it goes.

You play both games - for fun using anyone and killer teams for a tourney. If you can run a tourney with restrictions on certain figures, then do so. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree that Heroclix should have more variety. How rare is enhancement and probability? How common is ranged expertise?
The variety is coming though. High point version of Elektra!

I think it is commendable that the originator is trying to run his tournaments with variety and fun in mind, with scenarious etc.
It seems a big task though, becasue you are almost trying to play both games, which I imagine is hard to do.

Can you imagine, say the Superbowl, where the teams are asked to field their rookie players to give them some experience. They will save that for the friendly match!

Good luck on delivering both games in the tourney, but don't blame yourself if people play competitively and use the teams you hate. They are bound to want as many wins as possible. Ill bet they dont use cheese at home when they play.

Everyone has their criticisms of Heroclix, but we love it. I think the R/E/V set is a con and they should all be like Sentinels, with an R, E and V start point on the basic dial. That is how they make their money though.

X-plosion will add another load of figs the massive and growing list, and maybe the next one will be more to your taste.

Thanks for listening dudes!

Jason
England

[Tarnish]

I swear if there is ever a HC expansion that comes out without 10 threads claiming it's "broken" or "cheese" 2 weeks BEFORE THE RELEASE DATE then I'll sell all my figs and quit. That being said I expect to be playing a long while :rolleyes:
Tarnish

[de4dp00l]

I think the funniest part of this whole thread is that thechuck opened up the thread with an incredibly belligerent post about how Wizkids needs to fix the rules or he's leaving, because they're nothing but a money grubbing corporation that doesn't care about the players.

But me and azs and a couple of others are the bad guys, because we didn't give him a big hug and advice about how to use the figures that none of us have even played with yet. He wasn't asking for advice, he wasn't being constructive, he was whining and making ridiculous demands, and we called him on it. I have no problem with people voicing complaints, or people who are dissappointed with the new set. Heck, I'm a little dissappointed with some of the figures, but whatever. If you want a constructive thread, don't open up with "X-Plosion = X-Crement". There's my friendly, constructive advice for the night. And thechuck, I honestly hope you can give the new set a chance before you decide that it's ruined the game. You're really jumping the gun.

[Kid Zemo]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
So answer this, Portland area players...If you don't play with "cheese" and everythink seems to be "cheese" to you two, then what figures do you play with? I can't imagine the boring games you guys have..."my rookie Blizzard shoots your Hydra operative...again." Or is the Hydra ability "cheese."
I see from your .sig where you stand on the issue of 'cheese' and in truth I am philosophically closer to your side of the argument than thechuck's - in fact in my post I lauded him for not banning Firelord (I have never supported banning specific figures) I have also fairly vocally argued with those on these boards who bemoan the 'death of the game' based on Invisible Girl and Wildcard use so I hope you will resist the temptation to futher paint me as a 'reformer.' I certainliy am not one who believes that 'everythink (sic) is cheese'

That said, I understand why judges have issues with these types of teams. WizKids states (and thechuck is known to repeat) that the first rule of Heroclix tournaments is that everyone should have fun. If a judge sees that as their primary obligation, then whatever they perceive to be counter-productive to that aim must be addressed. I personally believe, however, that that has less to do with team construction than with player behavior. This Saturday I played a friendly, fun game vs. a player using E Firelord. There is also a player here locally who can make me regret having attended a Tourney if I have to play him regardless of what he plays. His attitude and approach to the game are just that disagreeable.

I should also say that I understand where you are coming from on the 'cheese' issue. It seems from your dripping sarcasm and confrontational .sig that you strongly resent the use of the word 'cheese' and feel that conveys negative character judgements. I would tend to agree. When I used that word in my original post, I was certainly not attempting to invoke the stigmatizing quality of the word - it is largely just shorthand and most understand that. I hope you know that I was not trying to label anyone and that I was just trying to point out thechuck's previously stated positions and how they relate to the current conversation.

Three points I hope you can take from this -all of which run counter to statements made in this thread:

I think that thechuck is primarily concerned with his ability to provide a fun gaming environment for his players.

Thechuck is in fact a good judge and a good friend to the HC community.

He would in fact be sorely missed if he left the game entirely.

Kid Zemo

[Magneto666]

Originally posted by Noman

No strategy is unbeatable.




Quite possibly the best line of any post in this thread so far.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by thechuck
The opposite of love isn't hate, it's apathy.

Not to be technical, but the opposite of love is hate. Apathy is the opposite of passion, which love and hate are both forms of.

[Deadpool91]

i can't believe this thread is still going on. what don't you brainsurgeon's understand. your allowed a certain amount of points...you build your team within that limit. if you don't build as good of a team as your opponent that's your own fault. if you can't beat 'em join 'em. i'm not a cheese player, but if someone brought out firelord on me everytime, i'd find ways to win. i don't understand the big firelord dispute, he's beatable. get over your fear of cheese and move on. stop defending people, i'm sure "thechuck" is a big boy and can defend himself. i have no problems with him, just tired of all the b*tching. i'm out...

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by AruthaEvanstil
This guy doesn't want attention, he wants to express his opinion and have that opnion responded too. I don't think he was looking for people to analyze him and act rudely about WHY he posted......maybe some shouldn't look at why he posted but HOW to help him.....

AE... EVERYONE who posts here wants attention. We each have a specific point of view that we want to express. We want everyone else to know it too. Deep down, we want everyone else to comform to our belief.

You felt it necessary to tell us that we shouldn't have acted rudely about why he posted. Between you and Vegs, you want everyone to apologize for our 'nasty' posts. Well, I will not. He is a judge. He might be fair in his rulings, but he is not being fair to WK or the new set. That sounds stupid, but it's true. He should try it first. And just because he thinks it's 'cheese' doesn't make it so. One man's cheese is another's gormet snack. I love a good snack.

[checkeredman]

boo hoo

I'm glad you're getting out of the game.

[Kid Zemo]

Originally posted by Remy Lebeau
Heroclix, as far as I'm concerned is a game of strategy. I also believe it's composed of two things within that.

1- The mental- Having a good Strategy

2- Luck- rolling what you need to execute that Strategy

Well, this kind of meta discussion might belong elsewhere, but WTH. I actually agree except that I think there are three elements:

Strategy (Team Construction) - having lots of figures available / knowing how to combine figures for good effect and knowing ahead of time what you will be doing with them

Tactical - Knowing how to move your pieces around the board to good effect (which square on a roof edge is best, positioning just out of Firelord's range, etc)

Luck - The great equalizer. The best constructed team cannot win with bad luck. The worst strategic and tactical player in the game can win with good luck

I feel this breaks it down a little better. People who are better at strategy than tactics are at a disadvantage in Sealed games. There is a local player who regularly shows up with killer armies with flashes of strategic ingenuity and often wins constructed tourneys but I have never seen him do well, much less win, in a sealed format.

Kid Zemo

[scowlingone]

I've been working on a strategy article that I'd like to send to WizKids on what I see as the basic strategy of Heroclix: minimizing the effect of luck.

It is interesting to note that most methods of minimizing the effect of luck on the game are described as "cheesy" by some people. IMHO, those people usually don't take it both ways: they're unhappy when they lose to a well-crafted team (they'll label it 'cheesy'), and they're unhappy when they lose based on the die rolls.

Perplex? Cheese. High attack values? Cheese. Stealth? Cheese. Probability Control? Cheese. Wildcards? Cheese. Outwit? Cheese. High defense values and/or Invisible Girl? Cheese.

There's no pleasing some people.

[DCFan#1]

Kid Zemo wrote:

People who are better at strategy than tactics are at a disadvantage in Sealed games.

Absolutely not. I play with guys who thrive on sealed tournaments because we've played with all the figures in other games. It's knowing the figures ahead of time, and using them to the max potential. Skill is skill, plain and simple.

-Rich

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by thechuck
After looking through the warriors section at the X-Plosion figures, I could not be more disappointed with this set. In fact, I'm giving Wizkids a month or two to come out with some sort of over-haul of the rules or something that will keep the game from being broken, otherwise, I will be sell of my collection and quitting.


Good arse, bye!

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by azs
What, the other half a dozen whiney posts weren't good enough for you?

You couldn't just post to these complainers:

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28586

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29214

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29058

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29230



You had to start yet another one?

Azs, this is amazing...

[DCFan#1]

Only if you mean amazingly stupid, Shin-goji. I can only assume you're on the side with those of us that are level-headed and excited about X-Plosion?

-Rich

[gaidin]

But he is not entitled to state it in public...

As a judge he is supposed to support the game. he is also not supposed to publically be negative as per the agreement he signed!

I am glad he has an opinon and he has a right to it but he also has an obligation to keep it to himself.

Are there broken figures NO Just ones that are easy to play and win with. There are figures that are easy to take the fun out of the game as well but for everything a figure can do there is another that can beat it.
I have lost to a Firelord team as well and then I creamed it two times in a row ( Only two people at the tournament so we played best two out of three I lost a very close game and then won two games that were not even close at all in fact in one I lost not a fig in demolishing his team)

Play in fun and the cheese is just for dipping your chips play with a I MUST WIN attitude and the cheese will drip out your ears in frustration. (And I must add that where I play the ones that play with a I want to have fun attitude beat the few I must win people most of the time:) )
Gaidin

[Drashia]

I think Azs missed a few post about Xplosion griping, the perplex ones.

This expansion is not perfect, and none shall ever be "perfect". This is merely the simple fact of the matter. I didn't like Psylocke's fig or her powers. I don't recall her standing beside Cyclops and he suddenly does more damage. However, the more I look at her stats, I'm actually quite happy. Sure I would like to see a lady mandarin with a psychic knife in one hand and an actual katana in the other, but for now, I must do with what's out there.

As for the other point, whether you like it on toast, in a omelette or just spead it over Heroclix, cheese and cheesy players will always exist.

btw, the title seems very harsh, and not inviting to constructive criticism, but more axed towards flaming, which defeats the purpose of the boards.

I do hope you stick around, maybe you could make your playing area a better place, instead of bowing out.

[Vegeta1]

"Vegeta1, my hat's off to ya!"

Thanks a lot.



"I been surfin the realms for months, and I finally see someone that wants to show people how to resolve, not add to problems. It's great to see someone that respects everyone's opinion and has an open mind to how other's play. I see other "popular" members of the realms adding to the problem at times........I'm glad someone has an open mind towards misunderstanding and solution."

Again, thanks for the kind comments.

[Vegeta1]

"My advice for the folks that hate cheese? Don't eat pizza. One man's cheese is another man's strategy."

Well said.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by DCFan#1
Only if you mean amazingly stupid, Shin-goji. I can only assume you're on the side with those of us that are level-headed and excited about X-Plosion?

-Rich
You #### straight DCFan.

[wooberhead1]

Originally posted by Kid Zemo
I am a (retired . . . sigh) judge and player in the Portland area. I play at games that 'thechuck' judges or plays in quite often. He is one of the best players in the area and judges at one of the most active venues.

The games he judges have a great mix of veterans and novices in attendance - often including kids - and the atmosphere is almost always fun and light hearted (the venue deserves a lot of credit for this. Things From Another World in Hollywood does a great job of creating an inviting atmosphere and encouraging younger or newer players to show up for events.)

Thechuck has always been a staunch opponent of cheese - many of his posts on this board have had that in common - and for good reason. We here in Portland have endured a long run of unfun players bringing cut throat armies. Some players have abandoned the scene because of it. That said, while some venues in the area have banned Firelord - thechuck's tournaments still allow him.

The scenario run this weekend was fun and different and I won the touney with a Mojo + Spiral combo team. He goes the extra mile for this game - working to make it fun for everyone and limiting cheese so that people who play uncommon teams can have fun and maybe even win. There is no question in my mind that he is a friend to this game.

I can understand some of his frustration even if I disagree on the main point (I'm REALLY looking forward to XPlosion) and his choice of original wording. Every time an expansion is released some folks get concerned that the game as they know it is dead. It happened with Hypertime. It happened with Clobberin' Time. It will continue to happen with each new expansion.

I hope you all can try and take is comments as they were intended (and not as stated) - a player and judge who is quite committed to this game venting frustration over what he sees as a trend that will make it even harder for him to limit cheese in his games and the tournaments he attends. I know it is frustrating to hear someone hating on something you are eagerly anticipating but know before you flame that the man behind the screen name is one of this area's best HC envoys. Everyone forgets to self-edit once in a while. Give him a break.

Kid Zemo

Actually, we don't allow Firelord. The guy that showed with him said "he didn't see it" on the posting.

[wooberhead1]

As a judge he is supposed to support the game. he is also not supposed to publically be negative as per the agreement he signed!

Last I checked, none of us had sold our souls to the HeroClix gods.

[shin-goji]

Shiznick, I did!

[wooberhead1]

n1k pHurY 0wnz j00 n00b.

[Kid Zemo]

Originally posted by wooberhead1
Actually, we don't allow Firelord. The guy that showed with him said "he didn't see it" on the posting.
Oh, well that changes things - Flame on guys! j/k

Kid Zemo

[Doctor Strange]

Con artists are overrated.. trust me.