Reusing Super-Rare Sculpts in Fast Forces Packs - Yay or Nay?

[invisibo]

For those unfamiliar with the quick packs, here's the thread discussing them:

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=295812

While the consensus seems to be that the packs themselves are a good idea, there seems to be no consensus on reusing Super-Rare sculpts, so I thought I'd put it up as a poll so we can get a slightly clearer picture.

[ChiRocker]

nay

As much griping as people make amount the secondary market prices for SR's and chases, without them, the game would not be as successful. Collectible games retain their collectivity when people have to go out of their way to get the rarer figures. If everyone could get them easily, then no one would try to get the actual SR's, and people would be fine with just buying enough to get CUR's, and fewer boosters would be sold...........

[Herrbrane]

Honestly I don't care in the slightest what sculpts they use. Well that isn't intirerly accurate, I don't want to see the DC 75 superman made again...

[creator9000]

sure different dials same sculpts. the people saying that it would reduce the value of the figs need to consider that a different dial = a different piece so there is no reason to devalue the pieces even if they are better. the way i see it completionists will need both, those who don't like the first dial will have a second shot, and more options of characters for team building works for me.

[Ultim8 Avenger]

nay
filler

ditto. new dials deserve new sculpts in my opinion.

[Xuco]

Same sculpt does not equal same figure. If they must reuse sculpts (which they seem determined), at least reuse the good ones. Yes, even those SRs

[Xargon]

Any chance for a poll option of I don't care if they reuse SR sculpts so long as it's not from the last set? I mean who doesn't like the idea of old figures that no longer usable in modern age being redone which is still different of hey lets release the SR from the last marvel set we've done?

[T. Paul Stiles]

SRs seem to be the only real decent sculpts in the game anymore ;)

[comical]

I didn't vote, but would have if there was an option for Yes if they are repaints and new dials.

[comical]

sure different dials same sculpts. the people saying that it would reduce the value of the figs need to consider that a different dial = a different piece so there is no reason to devalue the pieces even if they are better. the way i see it completionists will need both, those who don't like the first dial will have a second shot, and more options of characters for team building works for me.

History tells us this isn't true, though. Alfred dropped by about $30 when the Alpha version came out, and that was a different dial also.

Bottom line, there are collectors who just care about the sculpt and/or paint job. Reprinting, even with a new dial, will put more of that "figure" on the market, so both supply and demand are affected and prices lower.

If Wizkids' costs are a factor in making new figures, then I'm for these sets, but would like a new paint job too, not just new dials.

[robedestroyer]

A good example if they used SR's...

Let's say they use the Sinestro from DC75th. Repaint him into his Green Lantern Corps uniform, give him the Green Lantern Corps keyword and a totally new dial, but don't give him Sinestro Corps keyword. This would make him an entirely different figure, but it wouldn't hurt the value of the DC75th SR since this new figure is NOT a SR, but rather a new figure using a SR sculpt.

[Prof. Aragorn]

If the dial was different, I'd be all for it.

I love the Chase Batman sculpt. If that was a re-tooled dial, I'd be all for that.

Much like the World's Finest sculpt . . . hinted hint.

Maybe even with a slight different paint scheme, too.

[invisibo]

If the dial was different, I'd be all for it.

I love the Chase Batman sculpt. If that was a re-tooled dial, I'd be all for that.

Much like the World's Finest sculpt . . . hinted hint.

Maybe even with a slight different paint scheme, too.

I believe they've already ruled out chases.

[jak7890]

sure different dials same sculpts. the people saying that it would reduce the value of the figs need to consider that a different dial = a different piece so there is no reason to devalue the pieces even if they are better. the way i see it completionists will need both, those who don't like the first dial will have a second shot, and more options of characters for team building works for me.

Your vision is terrible. Chase alfred no longer sells; even when an auction starts at $44 no one bids on him and this is even with a very low supply lately.

SRs seem to be the only real decent sculpts in the game anymore ;)

Yeah, I agree somewhat, and that makes me sad.

I didn't vote, but would have if there was an option for Yes if they are repaints and new dials.

I didn't vote for the exact same reasons.

History tells us this isn't true, though. Alfred dropped by about $30 when the Alpha version came out, and that was a different dial also.

Bottom line, there are collectors who just care about the sculpt and/or paint job. Reprinting, even with a new dial, will put more of that "figure" on the market, so both supply and demand are affected and prices lower.

If Wizkids' costs are a factor in making new figures, then I'm for these sets, but would like a new paint job too, not just new dials.

Yep, more words of wisdom here. Again, every auction for chase Alfred in the recent past (both of them) have ended without a single bid at $44.

I believe they've already ruled out chases.

They have.

[M.Drake]

If they had the old dial I would understand why people are against the reissue, but for me: New Dial = New Figure and since there are so many great Sculpts of great characters only available as SR I'm all in for redialed SRs

(I remember people upset about alphred, could not understand that either since the chase had a much better dial and if I remember the price of the chase did not drop that much)

Also this would be a great chance to get some characters' remakes wo the need to put them in new sets, esp figures who got the only SR-Treatment

i.e.:
U-Foes with greensmokechick (forgot her name)
Warriors 3 with volstagg
X-Force with Deadpool
Runaways with Gert
Barry Allen
Max Carnage with Doppelganger
Superfriends with Wonder Twins

[Myrik_Justiciar]

New dial = new figure to me. Repaints would be nice if it were an option to do so, like wolvie in the red and blue instead of x-force.

I wish they'd reconsider the chase thing though, really. I hate the idea of chases. Its costing us good ideas like a Zombie pack or Marvel Family Pack (with Wizard Shazam), etc.

[Dr.HellCustom]

it's the players that kept this game alive. Market value should never be an issue. Sculpt and dial quality is m0re important. I wouldn't mind if they reuse good ones

[Wade Wilson]

I think the question is really...why do you buy or go after the Super rares? Is it the dial, the sculpt, or the character? If it's the sculpt I guess you would answer no to reusing, any of the others I would guess it wouldn't matter as they would have different dials and would still be a character you like...

[Sharkbite]

If we don't include Super-Rares, what teams can we actually make from Modern Age sets (Avengers being the definition of when Super-Rares began)?

Well, we can have the Runaways... minus Gert & Old Lace.
We can have the Dark Avengers... minus Ares and Sentry.
We can have the U-Foes... minus Vapor (who most needs redialed of the batch)
We can have the Sinestro Corps... minus Sinestro, of course.
We can get the Legion of Super Villains... minus Saturn Queen.
Our Sinister Syndicate... well, at least half of them weren't SRs.

Color me underwhelmed. Isn't retirement bad enough for splitting up team rosters; do we really want to have another reason why we can only put together half-teams?

Super-Rares are essential in order to complete team rosters. As long as members of teams are placed in the SR slots, we will need SRs in order to get full teams. And these packs are designed to be full-teams.

[Sharkbite]

Your vision is terrible. Chase alfred no longer sells; even when an auction starts at $44 no one bids on him and this is even with a very low supply lately.

I believe that has more to do than the release of Alphred. He does not sell now because he was previously desired for his highly playable dial: up front perplex plus the cheapest source of Batman team ability for wild cards that was tournament legal at the time. With Icons getting retired and taking out the 22 point starter Robin (who did not contribute anywhere near what Alfred's perplex brought), Alfred was highly desired as a playable chase, not merely a collectable.

During the lapse in Heroclix, chases fell in price. People started giving up and selling off their collections. That's when I picked up many of my chases, and all of them were going at pretty well half what they used to. I got my KC Supes and Green Lantern for $20 a pop on ebay, and my Legacy Ares ran $30. Everything fell in price because people were stopping playing. Supply increased and demand decreased.

When NecKids took over, they launched the Modern Age/Golden Age format and Alfred was sent to the retirement home with the rest of Origins. That's why his price only partially recovered and now he doesn't sell. He fetched a high price for being playable, and now he cannot be played in the competitive tournament scene.

Don't believe me? Lois Lane and Queen Hippolyta have never been remade and they've both got $40 buy-it-nows too. Wizard Shazam was re-released with a new sculpt in B&B, and he too fetches that same $40 price tag. Origins chases fell altogether, not Alfred exclusively. The release of Batman Alpha did not kill all four of them; it was the retirement and loss of playability.

Zombie Wolverine retained most of his price through the release of his Powers Cosmic M&M counterpart, just like the rest of the zombies. Why? Almost nobody actually played the zombies; they only wanted them to collect.

Release of Black Lantern Kal-L didn't budge E-2 Superman's price a cent. He remains a tournament legal figure and incredible butt-kicker. When Crisis gets retired, though, you will see him finally drop $30-$40.

[I Am The Game]

I'm up for SR remakes as long as:

1) they wait at least a year before releasing them

2) the dial on the SR should be superior to the re-release

[Wombatboy]

I'm up for SR remakes as long as:

1) they wait at least a year before releasing them

2) the dial on the SR should be superior to the re-release

I don't think it needs to be superior - a shorter dial or lower abilities with a cheaper point cost in some cases would also be acceptable. Just make it DIFFERENT.

Heck, go ahead and reuse old sculpts. In fact, pick the best sculpts out of the oldest sets and reissue those with new dials to make them competitive again. Give us a better Hellboy! Give us a competent Bat Sentry that isn't unique! Or a Hypertime Batman sculpt with a special power like the Kryptonite Man's! You could reissue the entire Legacy set with new dials and I wouldn't complain.

In fact if you're going to reuse old sculpts, why not reissue all the Horrorclix figures with Heroclix dials? Or does WizKids not want my money?

[Thrumble Funk]

All for re-dialing SR sculpts.

Example I used in another thread:

I have WoS Green Goblin, a great figure with a great sculpt.

Were WK to release a reissued Green Goblin without SPs/AE mechanic, standard powers, and the SinSyn TA, I'd want him as well.

Different dial = different figure = different roles to fill = more versatility for team building/play.

THAT is what I care about, not some silly notion that Clix should be high-priced commodities in perpetuity.

[Thrumble Funk]

I believe that has more to do than the release of Alphred. He does not sell now because he was previously desired for his highly playable dial: up front perplex plus the cheapest source of Batman team ability for wild cards that was tournament legal at the time. With Icons getting retired and taking out the 22 point starter Robin (who did not contribute anywhere near what Alfred's perplex brought), Alfred was highly desired as a playable chase, not merely a collectable.

Yep. I'd go as far as to say half of Alpha Alfred's appeal was his munchkin-friendly dial. Retirement = decreased munchkin appeal = decreased interest as a whole.

Not to say that people just looking for the sculpt didn't just snag an Alpha Alfred.

[Miraclo]

Go ahead.

The new dials would make them unique (and keep the earlier usages as SRs unique) and that is good enough for both.

As others have noted, Wizkids has ruled out using chase sculpts, so for now that's a non-issue. However, I'd be for them using them, too, for the same reason.

[jak7890]

I believe that has more to do than the release of Alphred. He does not sell now because he was previously desired for his highly playable dial: up front perplex plus the cheapest source of Batman team ability for wild cards that was tournament legal at the time. With Icons getting retired and taking out the 22 point starter Robin (who did not contribute anywhere near what Alfred's perplex brought), Alfred was highly desired as a playable chase, not merely a collectable.

A couple of things here:

1). Alfred is the only chase piece to ever have his sculpt re-used to date.
2). Alfred is the only Origins chase piece to not sell at all in the time period
3). Retirement really doesn't effect prices to the extent that you think. (For examples, look at all of the KC pieces, Ult. Thor, etc.)

During the lapse in Heroclix, chases fell in price. People started giving up and selling off their collections. That's when I picked up many of my chases, and all of them were going at pretty well half what they used to. I got my KC Supes and Green Lantern for $20 a pop on ebay, and my Legacy Ares ran $30. Everything fell in price because people were stopping playing. Supply increased and demand decreased.

Yes, during hiatus all the prices on everything heroclix plummeted and this wasn't just because of supply and demand. There's a concept in business called "Perceived Value;" perceived value is a component of real or market value. When heroclix went out of print the perceived value plummeted ("No more clix!?! No one to play with anymore!?! I gotta get while I can!!"), and as a result the real market value plummeted as well.

That's why a reprint of chase figures wholesale is a bad idea. It lowers the perceived value of the chase figures being reprinted, which isn't too big of a deal until your realize that this also affects the perceived value of future chases. This is the real issue, since this undermines the effectiveness of chase pieces to help move future booster sets.

When NecKids took over, they launched the Modern Age/Golden Age format and Alfred was sent to the retirement home with the rest of Origins. That's why his price only partially recovered and now he doesn't sell. He fetched a high price for being playable, and now he cannot be played in the competitive tournament scene.

Naw, I don't buy that. The old chase Wizard Shazam is retired, less playable, and from the same set and he still sells. Alfred does not.

Don't believe me? Lois Lane and Queen Hippolyta have never been remade and they've both got $40 buy-it-nows too. Wizard Shazam was re-released with a new sculpt in B&B, and he too fetches that same $40 price tag. Origins chases fell altogether, not Alfred exclusively. The release of Batman Alpha did not kill all four of them; it was the retirement and loss of playability.

Zombie Wolverine retained most of his price through the release of his Powers Cosmic M&M counterpart, just like the rest of the zombies. Why? Almost nobody actually played the zombies; they only wanted them to collect.

Release of Black Lantern Kal-L didn't budge E-2 Superman's price a cent. He remains a tournament legal figure and incredible butt-kicker. When Crisis gets retired, though, you will see him finally drop $30-$40.

You've missed something very big with your examples: all of them, other than Alfred, had new sculpts with new dials and some of them weren't even the same character.

The issue is NOT REMAKES, the issue is RE-USING SCULPTS!!!

Seriously, guys (and I don't mean this to be directed just at Sharkbite, his post was just the springboard). Stop just thinking, "I like cheap chases!" and start thinking about the business model. Don't just throw junk arguments that don't really fit out there; actually think this through with real evidence.

[jak7890]

I should also clarify that I am somewhat ok with re-using SR sculpts for the packs, but enough needs to be done to differentiate the piece and safe-guard the perceived value of booster SR's in order to continue garnering booster sales.

Repaints would be a huge step at safeguarding the value of booster SR's. Another big deal would be making sure that you really don't use very many SR's to reprint.

Since SR's are more abundant than chase pieces per set, a reprint of one or two SR's from a set won't have as drastic of an effect on the perceived value of future SR's. If Mysterio is the only WoS SR to be reprinted, then I have no guarantee that SR Doomsday will be reprinted in a future pack (the odds are 16:1 against), so I am still likely to go Doomsday hunting when DC75 drops.

There is a way to reprint SR's without damaging the business model, it just has to be done very carefully.

[Thrumble Funk]

Seriously, guys (and I don't mean this to be directed just at Sharkbite, his post was just the springboard). Stop just thinking, "I like cheap chases!" and start thinking about the business model. Don't just throw junk arguments that don't really fit out there; actually think this through with real evidence.

My argument fits. I told you why I would buy a re-issue of a figure that I already own, and under what circumstances.

Someone trying to turn a profit on a somewhat-obsolete figure from an out-of-print set (about, what, four years after the fact?) and failing doesn't exactly elicit my sympathy.

Sorry, but these things weren't meant to be commodities in a bubble, and no profit-motivated individual with half a brain would treat them as such. Crack a chase, sell it, move on. Don't hold onto the damn thing for years in hopes that prices from four years ago will still hold, as the nature of the game (remakes, retirement, etc.) argues against that strategy.

[Thrumble Funk]

There is a way to reprint SR's without damaging the business model, it just has to be done very carefully.

Right: by making new/different dials.

Using Doomsday as an example, what if a year later they were to reuse the Doomsday sculpt with a dial reflecting "smart" Doomsday from some years back.

Different dials, different powers, different effects on the game = different figure.

[michiganj24]

Too bad they can only go far back as HOT as that is the first set they did

[comical]

I believe that has more to do than the release of Alphred. He does not sell now because he was previously desired for his highly playable dial: up front perplex plus the cheapest source of Batman team ability for wild cards that was tournament legal at the time. With Icons getting retired and taking out the 22 point starter Robin (who did not contribute anywhere near what Alfred's perplex brought), Alfred was highly desired as a playable chase, not merely a collectable.

During the lapse in Heroclix, chases fell in price. People started giving up and selling off their collections. That's when I picked up many of my chases, and all of them were going at pretty well half what they used to. I got my KC Supes and Green Lantern for $20 a pop on ebay, and my Legacy Ares ran $30. Everything fell in price because people were stopping playing. Supply increased and demand decreased.

When NecKids took over, they launched the Modern Age/Golden Age format and Alfred was sent to the retirement home with the rest of Origins. That's why his price only partially recovered and now he doesn't sell. He fetched a high price for being playable, and now he cannot be played in the competitive tournament scene.

Don't believe me? Lois Lane and Queen Hippolyta have never been remade and they've both got $40 buy-it-nows too. Wizard Shazam was re-released with a new sculpt in B&B, and he too fetches that same $40 price tag. Origins chases fell altogether, not Alfred exclusively. The release of Batman Alpha did not kill all four of them; it was the retirement and loss of playability.

Zombie Wolverine retained most of his price through the release of his Powers Cosmic M&M counterpart, just like the rest of the zombies. Why? Almost nobody actually played the zombies; they only wanted them to collect.

Release of Black Lantern Kal-L didn't budge E-2 Superman's price a cent. He remains a tournament legal figure and incredible butt-kicker. When Crisis gets retired, though, you will see him finally drop $30-$40.

I like this post, and your examples. There's certainly a lot of truth to the playable dial reason for the value of particular figures. However, you really can't discount all the other factors. I sell clix, and I can tell you with 100% confidence that some people just buy for the figure. Any reprint of a figure will dilute the demand for the original. The only question is how much.

You brought up the best example. In your post you said yourself that the Wolverine Zombie was bought for collecting. If they made an easily obtainable one with a new dial the price of the original would drop significantly.

As for Alfred, Alpha DID drop the price immediately. The fact that they're all in the $40 range now could mean that the additional supply of Alfred figures balanced the fact that there's more demand for Alfred. Alfred was more expensive before Alpha came out, and less expensive after Alpha came out. I still buy them because there really is still demand for them. The price is lower, though. :)

[Senjir]

The main reason that I would say not to reuse sculpts (super rare, chase or whatever) is for dial recognition.

If it was a repaint - I would be okay with. But when I see a figure, I have a good shot at knowing the dial and thus knowing which figure I need to take out first or focus on more. The same exact figure would make dial recognition difficult.

If it has the same dial, then difinitely no. I am a collector. I have bought all of the classic packs and just feel that I was taken. I bought both Fantastic Four starter packs just because of the updated rules and opened neither one of them.
I want new stuff.

Now if it is a case of updating older figures to get SPs, Traits or new stats, then change the base color like with the White Lanterns, so they stand out if the figure is the same. Of course a different color may not be necessary if done with the new Oreo base. Basically, shooting for that it needs to be visually different for a playability standpoint.

[comical]

Too bad they can only go far back as HOT as that is the first set they did

NECA/Wizkids did buy all the property, so they COULD go further back. It really has nothing to do with HoT being the first NECA set. I'm sure it's the combination of A) having molds that would still work and be efficient and B) working within the crescent moon style construction.

[Puuka]

I would have liked the choice of "Go ahead, as long as the sculpt is not still legal in modern age"

[Puuka]

NECA/Wizkids did buy all the property, so they COULD go further back. It really has nothing to do with HoT being the first NECA set. I'm sure it's the combination of A) having molds that would still work and be efficient and B) working within the crescent moon style construction.

Considering they've used some older figs for the Iron Man Classics packs.

[jak7890]

My argument fits. I told you why I would buy a re-issue of a figure that I already own, and under what circumstances.

Someone trying to turn a profit on a somewhat-obsolete figure from an out-of-print set (about, what, four years after the fact?) and failing doesn't exactly elicit my sympathy.

Sorry, but these things weren't meant to be commodities in a bubble, and no profit-motivated individual with half a brain would treat them as such. Crack a chase, sell it, move on. Don't hold onto the damn thing for years in hopes that prices from four years ago will still hold, as the nature of the game (remakes, retirement, etc.) argues against that strategy.

Wow. You managed to completely miss the point of what I was saying. I'm kind of impressed.

Right: by making new/different dials.

Using Doomsday as an example, what if a year later they were to reuse the Doomsday sculpt with a dial reflecting "smart" Doomsday from some years back.

Different dials, different powers, different effects on the game = different figure.

Using Doomsday as an example, that would be fine... as long as they don't also re-use Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Hal Jordan, Bane, and Sinestro too.

That's my point. There are enough SR's per set that they can get away with reprinting 2 or 3 from each set without lessening the perceived value of the booster SR's, but the point where people expect that SR's will be reprinted is the point where boosters begin to devalue.

[invisibo]

I sincerely doubt they'd ever re-release every single super-rare from a set in a fast force pack.

We're probably only talking about 1 or 2, tops.

[Sharkbite]

A couple of things here:
2). Alfred is the only Origins chase piece to not sell at all in the time period
The old chase Wizard Shazam is retired, less playable, and from the same set and he still sells. Alfred does not.

Don't just throw junk arguments that don't really fit out there; actually think this through with real evidence.

Prior to making that post, I went to a popular online auction site and compared the Buy-It-Now rating of all four Origins Chase figures. All four were available within $1 of each other as a buy-it-now, trending at $40.

Returning there this moment, I see that Queen Hippolyta (never re-issued) is listed with a $40 buy-it-now, just as I recalled. Lois Lane is at $25 dollars with 0 bids and a $45 buy-it-now. I no longer see a Wizard Shazam up for sale and the only Alfred has some rediculous $119 price tag that will not sell.

Perhaps you are some highly experienced Heroclix Origins Chase Figures salesman, and perhaps you have personally sold several dozen Wizard Shazams while Alfred fails to move, but I am inclined to believe otherwise. They consistantly price the same; Alfred's reissued sculpt has not lowered his price below the other Origin Chases. Anyone can log in to online auction and compare for themselves. It's similar prices.

If the few sellers who continue to repost and not sell at $100+ confuse you, I recommend you bounce over to Troll&Toad. While they will overcost you what the ebay buy-it-nows steadily run, their prices are $75 for Alfred & Hippolyta, $70 for Wizard Shazam, $65 for Lois Lane. I assume that because they actually do this for a living, they have some idea of the comparitive ability to move any given figure, and they list all four Origins Chase Figures as similar prices (all inflated, but still similar).

I do not see evidence anywhere of your claim that Alfred depreciated in value below the others. Auctions and Secondary Market Sites both consistantly list them at the same price.

You then excuse this trend with a similarly unfounded accusation that, while they are all listed at the same price, only the Alfred figure fails to be sold at that price. Because you seem to be so familiar with economics, I am sure you understand the concept of Supply and Demand. Forgive my ignorance, but my understand of S&D is that, if everyone wants something rare, price goes up so the number available can be sold for the highest possible price; if the supply exceeds the demand, the price decreases until additional buyers begin to show interest. If Alfred "never sells" as you claim, his price would further drop. It holds steadily at similar cost to any of the other Origins Chases, which evidences that your claim is incorrect.

The only "junk argument" I'm hearing is your claim that two figures consistantly at the same price somehow have differant value, have this differant value because of a single incident that fails to show any correlation to price, and that all evidence to the contrary should be discounted because you somehow personally know that every single attempt to sell an Alfred fails, while every attempt to sell the other Origin Chases succeeds. If you do not think you can sell the chase Origins Alfred at the same $40 price tag as the other Origins chases, I recommend you bounce over to Strikezone Online. They are currently offering $47.46 for Chase Alfreds, and are seeking a total quantity of 3. Exact same thing for Lois Lane. Wizard Shazam and Queen Hippolyta both are also on the buy list, but priced lower than Alfred.

Guarunteed sale of Alfred chase (not just one, but three) for $7 over the ebay steady price? I think your "Alfred never sells" argument has been substantially debunked.

[T. Paul Stiles]

The thing is, if you have a theme for the pack are you gonna settle for an incomplete team because one member was a SR on the booster set?

The idea of the sets are a complete team, yeah? Well what's the point of having an X-Men team if you can't have Cyclops or Wolverine because Wizkids made him a SR?

[LabRat]

I voted Yes. But I have a suggestion that might be amenable to more people. If we're talking about a character (or version) whose only clix figure is an SR/chase, then yes, re-use that so that a version of that character can be readily available. But if it's a character who's had non-SR/chase sculpts, I don't see why they can't reuse the non-SR/chase sculpt instead.

[LabRat]

I wonder if CCG players have ever experienced something similar...

CCG Company: "We're going to reissue the Black Lotus art in another, totally different card that's going to be common."

CCG Players: "No! I paid plenty of cash to get my Black Lotus!"

[ThwartHog]

I didn't vote, but would have if there was an option for Yes if they are repaints and new dials.

I agree with this. reissue any fig, as long as they have new paint and new dial with card.

[M.Drake]

I wonder if CCG players have ever experienced something similar...

CCG Company: "We're going to reissue the Black Lotus art in another, totally different card that's going to be common."

CCG Players: "No! I paid plenty of cash to get my Black Lotus!"

I don't know but honestly I wouldn't be surprised

[jak7890]

Prior to making that post, I went to a popular online auction site and compared the Buy-It-Now rating of all four Origins Chase figures. All four were available within $1 of each other as a buy-it-now, trending at $40.

Returning there this moment, I see that Queen Hippolyta (never re-issued) is listed with a $40 buy-it-now, just as I recalled. Lois Lane is at $25 dollars with 0 bids and a $45 buy-it-now. I no longer see a Wizard Shazam up for sale and the only Alfred has some rediculous $119 price tag that will not sell.

Perhaps you are some highly experienced Heroclix Origins Chase Figures salesman, and perhaps you have personally sold several dozen Wizard Shazams while Alfred fails to move, but I am inclined to believe otherwise. They consistantly price the same; Alfred's reissued sculpt has not lowered his price below the other Origin Chases. Anyone can log in to online auction and compare for themselves. It's similar prices.

If the few sellers who continue to repost and not sell at $100+ confuse you, I recommend you bounce over to Troll&Toad. While they will overcost you what the ebay buy-it-nows steadily run, their prices are $75 for Alfred & Hippolyta, $70 for Wizard Shazam, $65 for Lois Lane. I assume that because they actually do this for a living, they have some idea of the comparitive ability to move any given figure, and they list all four Origins Chase Figures as similar prices (all inflated, but still similar).

I do not see evidence anywhere of your claim that Alfred depreciated in value below the others. Auctions and Secondary Market Sites both consistantly list them at the same price.

You then excuse this trend with a similarly unfounded accusation that, while they are all listed at the same price, only the Alfred figure fails to be sold at that price. Because you seem to be so familiar with economics, I am sure you understand the concept of Supply and Demand. Forgive my ignorance, but my understand of S&D is that, if everyone wants something rare, price goes up so the number available can be sold for the highest possible price; if the supply exceeds the demand, the price decreases until additional buyers begin to show interest. If Alfred "never sells" as you claim, his price would further drop. It holds steadily at similar cost to any of the other Origins Chases, which evidences that your claim is incorrect.

The only "junk argument" I'm hearing is your claim that two figures consistantly at the same price somehow have differant value, have this differant value because of a single incident that fails to show any correlation to price, and that all evidence to the contrary should be discounted because you somehow personally know that every single attempt to sell an Alfred fails, while every attempt to sell the other Origin Chases succeeds. If you do not think you can sell the chase Origins Alfred at the same $40 price tag as the other Origins chases, I recommend you bounce over to Strikezone Online. They are currently offering $47.46 for Chase Alfreds, and are seeking a total quantity of 3. Exact same thing for Lois Lane. Wizard Shazam and Queen Hippolyta both are also on the buy list, but priced lower than Alfred.

Guarunteed sale of Alfred chase (not just one, but three) for $7 over the ebay steady price? I think your "Alfred never sells" argument has been substantially debunked.

What you didn't do is look at the completed listings. Those happen to be the only ones relevant to our discussion, since, as you've pointed out, there are a number of unrealistic buy-it nows on ebay just like the Alfred for $119.

As of yesterday, there were no sold Alfreds (two auctions with starting bids at $45), 2 sold Loises (at $45ish), and several sold Shazams (at about $45 with one completed yesterday at a similar price). As of today, however, ebay has cycled out everything from the completed listings from early November and before (so there are no sold Hippolyta or Lois figures listed any longer, which does make my argument look weaker than it was yesterday, I'll grant you).

As for Troll and Toad, they tend to over price their their SR's and chase pieces while keeping lower prices on pre-orders and CUR. For instance, they used to list Victor Creed at $185; during that same time-frame I bought him at auction for about $60.

Now, as for my claims that Alfred depreciated because of the re-use of his sculpt, that's corroborated by one of the larger ebay sellers of heroclix; go ahead and look at all of comical's posts above mine since you doubt my reliability.

I really don't sell a lot of heroclix on ebay. I do, however, buy a lot of heroclix on ebay, so yeah, my prices tend to be relatively accurate with regard for what a piece actually sells for. Just a word of advice, since you don't seem to be that familiar with ebay: always pay attention to the completed listings before worrying about the active ones.

[Surfer13]

Where is the "Go ahead: I want them to use the best available sculpt for any character that they include in those packs"?

But I am not worried about them using a SR sculpt.

HoT Cap goes for more than some SRs, so why just stop there? Why not say "No rares or SRs"? Keep that up and there won't be any sculpt left to use.

But why even ask the whys? We can explain those here. All that does is skew the numbers.

Are you in favor of them using SR sculpts in Fast Forces packs?

Yes?

No?
That's it.
If someone doesn't care, then why would they bother voting?

[Ironman1994]

Here's a bad quality flow chart that states my thoughts on the manner. I'd write it all out, but I've written it all out in zirans thread previously, and I'm feeling surprisingly lazy at the time of this post. lol.
Assume, for the sake of this flow chart, that if the dial is reprinted, automatic no.
http://imgur.com/EVkxV.png

[Thrumble Funk]

Wow. You managed to completely miss the point of what I was saying. I'm kind of impressed.

No, I got it, and no, you aren't.

Sorry, I use up my quota of internet snark by 9:30 AM most days. Try again.

Using Doomsday as an example, that would be fine... as long as they don't also re-use Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Hal Jordan, Bane, and Sinestro too.

That's my point. There are enough SR's per set that they can get away with reprinting 2 or 3 from each set without lessening the perceived value of the booster SR's, but the point where people expect that SR's will be reprinted is the point where boosters begin to devalue.

And, again, if the figures are different enough PLAY wise, it is a moot point.

I got your point. You're refusing to get mine. But hey, that's fine.

[Thrumble Funk]

Wow. You managed to completely miss the point of what I was saying. I'm kind of impressed.

Also, (self-styled) superior mentalist, let me know how the value of a four-year-old figure (whose primary role on a team can be filled by a $2 pog) is an indication of anything more than an inability to appropriately gauge the secondary market, would you?

Kthnxbai!

[Thrumble Funk]

Using Doomsday as an example, that would be fine... as long as they don't also re-use Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Hal Jordan, Bane, and Sinestro too.

That's my point. There are enough SR's per set that they can get away with reprinting 2 or 3 from each set without lessening the perceived value of the booster SR's, but the point where people expect that SR's will be reprinted is the point where boosters begin to devalue.

ALSO also, on what planet would any business executive be stupid enough to release a blind booster expansion and then, even a year later, to re-release most/ALL SRs in a given set?

[Spider-Dave]

A good example if they used SR's...

Let's say they use the Sinestro from DC75th. Repaint him into his Green Lantern Corps uniform, give him the Green Lantern Corps keyword and a totally new dial, but don't give him Sinestro Corps keyword. This would make him an entirely different figure, but it wouldn't hurt the value of the DC75th SR since this new figure is NOT a SR, but rather a new figure using a SR sculpt.

This is the perfect answer in my opinion.

[Thrumble Funk]

This is the perfect answer in my opinion.

Yep, that's basically what I'm talking about. Fills a niche role, too.

Were we to get, say, a SR She-Hulk in a future set, I'd happily buy a re-dial with the same sculpt in her FF togs, on an FF-centric dial.

[Clickin'nutz!]

I sincerely doubt they'd ever re-release every single super-rare from a set in a fast force pack.

We're probably only talking about 1 or 2, tops.

I agree completely, I think 1 sr per pack is actually the best scenario. And people are saying that the value of a sr will drop, but if they go ahead and make the new dial on the reused sculpt say for example Deadpool, but he doesn't have the awesome regenerating power, well then the original sr I don't think will drop that much in value if any.

And if you haven't read the post about the actual idea the best suggestion so far was that all of the new dials are practically intended for newer users, and so they won't have a lot of fancy powers, or traits.

[Clickin'nutz!]

I think a great point with the whole battle pack idea is that if we the consumers are going to buy old sculpts I would love to get another sculpt of a sr if the dial is different. In fact I think the first one could be red hulk out of wos they could paint him green and give us a different variation.

[Thrumble Funk]

I think a great point with the whole battle pack idea is that if we the consumers are going to buy old sculpts I would love to get another sculpt of a sr if the dial is different. In fact I think the first one could be red hulk out of wos they could paint him green and give us a different variation.

Hell, I'd be happy with a re-dial of Red Hulk to reflect his recently-acquired Avengers membership!

[obesesniper93]

im AGAINST it, unless they re-paint...

because personally i dont want to see a very hard to aquire SR(impossible man, and Lobo, for example were both rare around my area) lose its "special" factor.

EDIT: if there were several of the same sculpt of Impossible man then he wouldnt be as unique as he is. he's got A very cool sculpt, and i think that seperates him from alot of other characters.

ALSO there is a small confusion factor. when i see "Starro lantern" across from me i ASSUME its the 90 point figure. and i have(on two occasions) been surprised by him hitting harder than i expect or carrying multiple charcacters(the judge LE).

YES its my fault for not looking closer, but it is still a bit confusing IMO.

just my 2 cents: re-use. but re-paint as well.

[ccs]

Same sculpt does not equal same figure. If they must reuse sculpts (which they seem determined), at least reuse the good ones. Yes, even those SRs

This.

Idealy we'd get completely new & decent sculpts in each product.
Since that won't happen? Reuse the best sculpts available.

[M.Drake]

sometimes it is hard to keep a good view of similar threads.

I will just copy and paste what I just wrote in the original thread

Since Justin already told us the FF-Packs would go from HoT here is a List of SRs which imo would be mandatory for a remake in the right 6 figure sets and who would be very unlikely

Volstagg if the other Warriors 3 are in the set
Gert & old Lace in a Runaways set but here already a 6th figure from another set would be needed (WoS)
Venus for AoA
Deadpool in a X-Force Set
Groot only if they use him with the HoT-Figs for a GoG-Team
Vapor if the other U-Foes are in the set
Goblin, Doc Ock or Mysterio in a Spidey Villain Set
barry Allen if they do not use the sculpt from BaB
Sinestro for a new guardians set since the last one was from CR

all other SRs do not jump in my mind if I think of 6-Men Teams for this new format of packs or they have other Sculpts that can be used (Hal from BN or BaB, The Trinity from BaB or common DC75)

B&B would be quite hard to reuse except if they brake up the duos

so of that big pile of SRs we have we are talking about 11 SRs in my list and 2 of them would need figures from other sets for a 6-men team

look at the sky, is it a bird, is it a plane??
No it is the sky. not falling!!!

[Thrumble Funk]

I'm thinking we won't get packs of less "fan-favorite" groups like the Runaways and Agents of Atlas, as they don't have that potential crossover appeal.

Warriors Three might have a shot, as they're in the Thor movie, but I'm thinking a Volstagg remake shouldn't be on the table until midway through 2011 at least.

[M.Drake]

I'm thinking we won't get packs of less "fan-favorite" groups like the Runaways and Agents of Atlas, as they don't have that potential crossover appeal.

Warriors Three might have a shot, as they're in the Thor movie, but I'm thinking a Volstagg remake shouldn't be on the table until midway through 2011 at least.

As I understood Justin one pack shall have a 6-man team for one player. because of that I thought it would be plausible that we get full teams in it

hence my above idea

I think I just butchered the english language, long day at university:laugh:

[d_knight7]

So obviously only a small sampling of a few hundred people, but that's 77% that are pro re-using sculpts from SR's...

Does that make, at least on the realms, the opposition a loud minority?

Honestly, when it was broached before there was a big stink, but thinking back it was a few people who were VERY angry about the idea who kept posting.

[Silver Lantern]

Getting more cool figs into the hands of players = awesome. The haters be darned!