Of Pineapples and prerelease sales...

[scissors]

I hope this post is read , taken seriously and maybe even responded to by someone at wizkids if I'm lucky. Firt, I would like to say that I love heroclix. It is literally the first game of it's kind I have ever bought into or enjoyed playing and with one orange flaming exception think that each piece is well thought out and very playable in both competitive and fun games. My concern is not about broken pieces or even complaints about "missing" characters. I am however confused by recent events surrounding the release of Xplosion.

I suppose what is the biggest mystery to me is your pre-release marketing strategy. First there was the banned spoiler list which resulted in a number of deleted posts and threads as well as a fair bit of questioning about the role of this forum and its relationship with your company. However after all this focus on secrecy, we are seeing widely circulated stats and images from Megacon nearly a full month before the release date of the set. This seems to be a strong reversal of your previous policy. I was just hoping you could clarify your policy or the reasons for this marketting strategy. For example if the controversial spoiler list was stolen I can certainly understand why you would be opposed to its distribution, but in light of the presale at Megacon it seems to have been much ado about nothing.

Personally I can say that if I had known what I now know about WHO is in this set before the pre-order deadline at my store I would have pre-ordered a case for myself. Unfortunately I didn't even have the unofficial list at that time and, fearing dissapointment, I didn't preorder any. Instead I counted on purchasing a few boosters on release day and budget for more within my limited income. Now I don't think I will be able to afford enough boosters to satisfy my craving for all of these great characters.

Personally I hate surprizes and I am a collector first and gamer second so i would have loved to have seen a semi-official list in January. It would have made my decisions easy. I like that the stats and sculpts of these characters are surprizes but I wish we couls see at least a tentative list of characters in a set in advance of ordering deadlines in the future.

[Hellboy]

I have to agree with Scissors. I understand you're trying to make us drool and go crazy with desire, but a list of names won't stop that. Ok, so we find out Iron Man will be released... instead of arguiing about whether or not he'll be in the set, we'd argue about stats, poses, costumes, and the like. The secrecy doesn't really change anything. except we all get edgier, drink more coffee, and snap at people who sneak up on us. Help out our friends & loved ones and stop this cruel practice.

[Dexceus]

The reason there was a big to-do about that list is because the release list had not gotten Marvel's approval yet. Therefore, if Marvel could have shown that Whiz Kids had released that list, it would have caused problems with the licensing.

Whiz Kids was doing nothing more then protecting it's license and relationship with Marvel.

[scissors]

I understand what the problems were with THIS list. All I am saying is that in future it would be great if we could see an approved list before the pre-order deadline from Diamond, instead of having to wait until it is too late to order more to see tons of previews

[Noman]

I understand the reasons regarding licensing that caused problems with the circulation of the pineapple, and the fact that the real problem was that someone claimed to "know" what was coming, when they assumedly should not have had the info in the first place. Much better to work out inclusions, dates, and so forth by luck, guesswork and little bits of information gleaned from here and there, much like the legendary Doc Morbious did for Infinity Challange, or like I'm trying to do for the long term expansion release dates.

No, what irked me was the prerelease at MegaCon itself - (I don't mind at all not knowing what's in the set in advance - I can't afford to buy a crate anyway, but I can and will get the whole set over time, being both a player and a collector) - but the prerelease irks me because a few people who are either geographicaly lucky or financialy ebay capable can get the drop on the rest of us by a month.

Of course, IF I was either Geographicaly unchallanged or flush with ebay profits, I would, naturaly, get the whole set a month early if I could...I just don't think this should be possible, and I don't think it's either fair or good marketing.

We all want whats best for the game - and I think a simultaneous world wide release with associated Marquee tournaments would be it.

All the Best

Noman

[Dexceus]

How is it bad marketing?

It has definatly picked up talk around here. It has also picked up talk at the local stores. It has definatly increased pre-order sales at the store I hang out/work at.

As for being fair, what exactly is fair?

[Noman]

1. "Fair" is not making access to the product INTENTIONALY easier for some than others - ie if you live within 30 miles of GenCon. It' s just as "unfair" on an American the other side of the states as it is on me in the UK, or one of the gang in Germany or Latin America.

However, much more important is...

2. Bad Marketing.
It goes like this - prerelease releases a limited number of each of the figs into the market, and thus onto ebay and elswhere. The serious / wealthy collectors and gamers buy these, thus buying less from local stores. Other players now know whats coming. Those who would have bought a Crate anyway still do, but some people work out the odds (ie of getting the things they now know they want) and buy less, or even wait for the secondary market - as it will be possible to buy a limited number of figs for less than it would cost to get them by buying boosters. This is especialy true for those who only want sculpts. Release / Marquee tournaments have more attendance, and the people at them buy more goods, if those goods are not yet on the market.
Hence, I believe that a prerelease damages initial sales and the early tournament scene, is therefore bad for the game, and is therefore bad marketing.

All the Best

Noman

Q "What do you call a fourteen year old walking OUT of Games Workshop ?" Poorer.

Q "What do you call a sixteen year old walking INTO Games Workshop ? Staff.

LoL

AtB

Noman

[Dexceus]

Originally posted by Noman
1. "Fair" is not making access to the product INTENTIONALY easier for some than others - ie if you live within 30 miles of GenCon. It' s just as "unfair" on an American the other side of the states as it is on me in the UK, or one of the gang in Germany or Latin America.


The idea of fair is kind of abstract. Is it fair that some people have more money to buy clixs then I do? Is it fair that some people have better access to tournaments, and hence LEs, then I do?

I hate to say it, but life isn't fair. Then again, having to wait three weeks longer for little peices of plastic isn't all that big of a deal.


Originally posted by Noman

2. Bad Marketing.
It goes like this - prerelease releases a limited number of each of the figs into the market, and thus onto ebay and elswhere. The serious / wealthy collectors and gamers buy these, thus buying less from local stores. Other players now know whats coming. Those who would have bought a Crate anyway still do, but some people work out the odds (ie of getting the things they now know they want) and buy less, or even wait for the secondary market - as it will be possible to buy a limited number of figs for less than it would cost to get them by buying boosters. This is especialy true for those who only want sculpts. Release / Marquee tournaments have more attendance, and the people at them buy more goods, if those goods are not yet on the market.
Hence, I believe that a prerelease damages initial sales and the early tournament scene, is therefore bad for the game, and is therefore bad marketing.


Pre-realeases do not create the secondary market. What creates the secondary market, for the most part, is the fact that it is a collectible game.

But anyway, if Joe Smith buys X boosters at convention X (or even off of ebay), will it mean he wil spend less money at release date? I'll give it to you and say yes. Does it matter to Whiz Kids? Not really, Joe Smith bought X boosters, it doesn't matterm he has given them his money.

Now it does mean that Joe Smith will not buy those boosters from his local stores, but it WILL increase the number of boosters they sell to Joe's friends, because they want to keep up with Joe.

Therefore it is good marketing, even if as players and collectors we want the toys when everyone else gets them.

[Noman]

Fair points, (obviously), and obviously, I disagree.

On with the Thread...

All the Best

Noman

[Dexceus]

I guess we will agree to disagree.

Though since most games, and most companies that produce other products, do similar things all the time, either it is good marketing or everyone is getting it wrong.

[Noman]

LoL !

...and how many ccg's / figure producers / boardgame companies / and general gaming outfits survive for long ???

OK - guess we agree to disagree.

All the Best

Noman

[Joe Kerr]

I personally hope there is a spoiler list for the DC set. DC doesn't have the same punch for your buck. They've got some strong characters. They've got the greatest character Batman. But once you start gonig past Batman and Superman the field starts getting a little weak. If there is a spoiler list that says Poison Ivy, Scarecrow, and some other Batman villians I want them I'm going to be all about getting a case. If there is no spoiler list and I'm to assume this set is all about the Green Lantern then I frankly don't care and probably won't get a case.

So I think it's cool if they put up a spoiler list before the presale date. I personally think it's smart business. I was very pleased with the Marvel list. I was going to buy a case anyway but that made me feel even better about it.

[Gargantua]

As one of the people who doesn't usually get to attend all the cons, it is frustrating to hear all the people who did get to go talk about the new figures/cards/whatever that they were able to pick up there in pre-release, knowing full well that I could do nothing but listen for the next few weeks. But it is good for the game, I think. Certainly makes me chomp at the bit to get the new stuff as soon as it comes out.

Anything that gets poeple talking/excited about the game/new product is good for business. Spoilers, lists, pre-releases they're all good.

Okay having said that, let's get some spoilers for the new DC set!

[bjmc1975]

For me, spoiler lists are much more important for Marvel than DC - I'm buying a case of DC regardless, whereas I needed to be assured of content with the Marvel set, especially an X-Men themed one. Once I knew the set was only about half X-Men, only one of which was a total waste of space, I felt better about it, and the other half of the set looked great.

And about the pre-release - I can live with it, assuming there won't be any kind of product shortage in three weeks. I'm happy that it was here in the south, where we don't have many big cons, rather than one of the areas that tends to get awash in this stuff. I happen to live in one of those areas where there are no major cons within 500 miles essentially ever, so I'm sorta out of luck regardless.

[Fogs]

1) There is already a pretty tantalizing DC spoiler list circulating. It's in the DC Rumor Mill. There are several, but the one posted by the Twinz has enough juicy goodness to cause debate as to its authenticity.

2) "Fair" is a relative term. We could all live in Iraq and wonder if we're going to get bombed to #### instead of talking about little plastic play toys on our Home Computers.

3) The most important element of this thread, and I've thought many many many times about starting a similar rant of my own, is Whizkids "Atmosphere of Secrecy".

Yes, we live in a litigious age.

True story, the man who lives next door to my Mother has terminal cancer and yet no doctor will give him an estimation of how long he can expect to live because they all fear they'll be sued by his survivors if they tell him incorrectly. Now THAT sucks.

So, a part of me sympathizes with WK and the fact that they have contractual obligations/partners/shareholders or owners.

And yet, this company is VERY tightlipped.

Wayyyyyyy too much so.

These are toys for god sakes, not military secrets.

Here are some good examples of things that I can find no harm in sharing with the public, yet they have not done so.

1) Technically we still don't know the official Xplosion line-up. Yes, the pineapple seems indisputably genuine. Yes, many people have posted their pulls from Megacon. However, We're three weeks away from release, and the company has not officially listed the figures in the set for us.

2) The company has not given us an official confirmation of a DC expansion. Yes, there have been a few articles/interviews that point to a June or July release, but why can't they just come out and SAY it? Even if it's just "In the works", there are plenty of ways to write the press release in legalese so that they won't be held to release dates/reveal any "top secret" information.

3) Indy Clix, more than anything else, has been avoided by the company. Who has signed on? When can we start to think about them being released? I mean this set, MUCH more so than the others, will depend on what companies/comix sign up for it. And so far, we know only one thing from Whizkids themselves. They're gonna do Judge Dredd. Whoppee Doo Da.

4) There's a longstanding rumor that Marvel signed a contract for 5 sets, and DC for 3. I have no clue about the truth of that, but couldn't they let us know? How could that hurt the sales? I for one, would like to know how much legs this thing has at this point in time...

These are just a few points off of the top of my head. I'd LOVE to know these things, but we're left to debate/speculate instead. So if some "fruit" leaks, good! The mad scramble of the fans to share the info is their own fault.

[PMMJ]

Originally posted by Fogs
1) There is already a pretty tantalizing DC spoiler list circulating. It's in the DC Rumor Mill. There are several, but the one posted by the Twinz has enough juicy goodness to cause debate as to its authenticity.

That big list that was proven fake when someone found the original thread it came from?

At the moment, we know exactly five people from the spoiler list. Check out boneyard's very scientific list for details.

4) There's a longstanding rumor that Marvel signed a contract for 5 sets, and DC for 3. I have no clue about the truth of that, but couldn't they let us know? How could that hurt the sales? I for one, would like to know how much legs this thing has at this point in time...

Nail, head. Fewer people would buy the later editions, because they would know the game is ending soon.

And that rumor has *never* been substantiated anywhere.

[Fogs]

PMMJ... I finally see what you (and others) mean. Looks like another hoax I guess :(

As for not buying figs because time is running out, personally, I would do just the opposite. I would be tempted to complete my sets while I still could rather than the other way around, but that's just me. I would still like to know.

[Gargantua]

I've heard the rumors that DC has signed up for three sets, but that's just the initial agreement. Doesn't mean if those three do well that they won't sign up for another three.

I won't give up on a game that's dead if I like it. I still play 7th Sea more than a year since it was discontinued. But the player base dropped significantly. There is a certain desire for more that forces players to move on to something else when a game is discontinued. I don't know that I'd be playing Heroclix if 7th Sea was still running. But after 6 months of no new cards, I was desperate for something new to collect, and Heroclix appealed to the kid in me who grew up reading comics.

So it may be that if Wizkids announced that there were only going to be 5 Marvel and 3 DC sets officially, yeah, I could see where it might get people looking elsewhere to spend their money.

[DS-00-0, FSD]

Well, you also have to think about contract extensions as well.

Many companies license their product for a certain time period. Whe the license is ready to expire, they obviously look at all of the comapnies that are wanting to purchase the license and go with what makes the most sense for them (*Shakes fist at LFL*).

If the rumor is true, it does not mean that those expansions will be the only expansions ever created. If Marvel, DC or any pf the Indy guys think that it is in their best interest financially to sign another licensing agreement, you can bet they will.

[Noman]

I agree with that, and also with Gargantua about "folded" card games.
Galactic Empires (my favourite CCG) is still being played YEARS after it folded, but the player base shrank when no new cards came out.
HeroClix should survive, as it's a game system to which different "franchises" and "universes" can be added on indefinitly.

All the Best

Noman