12 range and 4 damage! what next?

[akdov]

after months of taxiing firelords and bullseyes around we finally have a set that is geared towards getting up close and smashing people in the face with dumpsters! In this set we find collosus, the abomination, savage hulk, apocalypse, and the beast who qualifies thanks to perplex. I've never seen so many 4 damage clicks and super strength. It used to be 3 damage was great with only a few clicks able to beat that (hercules, dr. hyde). heck even Juggernaut only got 1 click of 4 damage and you had to fork over 120 points for that (and a lot of invulnerablitity granted). Then we get clobering time which brings us she hulk and the thing as well as titania, dr. doom, and thor as 4 damage dealers. This set is loaded with beatdown and thats not counting b/c/f brawlers like weapon x and silver samurai.

but this set also seems to break a basic rule. 12 range? I thought I remember an interview with the creator where he stated that the hulk would do the most damage so damage was "capped" at 5. It seemed that range was naturally capped at a 10 also. I do really see why the change in this set? are we to say that the phoenix and the crimson dynamo can attack farther away than thor can throw his hammer? It just seems like they are breaking a tradition just for the sake of breaking it. next set there will probably be a SAVAGER HULK with a damage of 6 then we get super duper flash with a movement of 30 and also spiderman on Cocaine with a defense of 22 and supersenses (way to jittery for me). All im saying is that this could be a dangerous trend where new sets throw out ever increasing numbers to force players to buy more clixs of be left behind with an exp. batman who has a 9 attack and needs a 10 to hit Armored Thug.

sound off on either issue you guys got 2 posts in 1

akdov

[texaswashingto]

Crimson Dynamo only has a 10 range. It's Vet Mandarin who has the 12 range. Only he and Phoenix are the only 12ers.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by akdov


but this set also seems to break a basic rule. 12 range? I thought I remember an interview with the creator where he stated that the hulk would do the most damage so damage was "capped" at 5. It seemed that range was naturally capped at a 10 also. I do really see why the change in this set? are we to say that the phoenix and the crimson dynamo can attack farther away than thor can throw his hammer?

All im saying is that this could be a dangerous trend where new sets throw out ever increasing numbers..

akdov

first..
Thor is NOT repeat that after me, NOT the be all end all of heroclix !
there are a vast number of hero's/villains who can and should outrange Thor !
why because he's physically limited (no I don't mean SS): If he throws the hammer to far away( it wouldn't come back in like 10 seconds) he would turn into his other persona (dr. Blake) and that is dangerous in combat !!

second..
please don't insult Spiderman !!

yes it's a disturbing trend and I surely don't like the Mageknight like ranges popping up (where úberrange dominates the field), but since a taxi will get you an absolute minimum range of 12 and maximum range of 20 (pre-Xplosion) that's not really a problem yet.

[guanoe]

It is indeed disturbing. The future sets may render IC, CT obselete with this trend. For example rebellion set in mageknight.

[WarUlt]

Being as only two characters have twelve range, it's not a problem yet. I see XP as having significantly lower stats than any other set, which is where the perplex may come in, to raise AV.
IC and CT aren't obsolete (yet) because of certain unmentioned characters ....cough...firelord...cough...ultron. Their high stats keep them viable for play.

[Melkoloran]

What will be interesting is if they release a Revised edition of IC and weaken/remove FL or Ultron...

[de4dp00l]

In regards to capping damage at 5, due to the precedent set by the Hulk, that was in the first interview with Jon L, right after he started at Wizkids, I believe. However, he never said that any of the other number were capped, such as range, defense, etc.

As far as Phoenix goes, I have no problem with her having the highest range in the game at the moment. Looking at it in terms of the comics, as a high level telepath, she doesn't even need to be able to see you to unleash her powers on you. I'm not familiar with the Mandarin's powers or limitations, but I suspect that it's a similar situation. I hope 10 remains the basic cap for normal ranged attacks, ie people who need to be able to see what they're shooting at, but for characters like Prof X, Dr. Strange and others who can find and attack people anywhere in the world, I think a higher range is justified.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by WarUlt
Being as only two characters have twelve range, it's not a problem yet. I see XP as having significantly lower stats than any other set, which is where the perplex may come in, to raise AV.
IC and CT aren't obsolete (yet) because of certain unmentioned characters ....cough...firelord...cough...ultron. Their high stats keep them viable for play.

ranged figs don't have a problem yet, because they can get taxied.

It's the bruisers who only get in a worse position !
you need a taxi which can fly 12 (FL is the only 1 that can do that) or a taxi with 10 move and you have to charge.
And on top of that it only works when the opponent has had his firstshot in !!

[skforeman]

this relates to something a friend and i were talking about last night - the evolution of the game.

i think that the expansion of powers/abilities and things like damage values and range can only be a good thing. if things like this DIDN'T change, gameplay would stagnate. with strict limits on those kinds of things, we'd end up with a board filled with different sculpts that all have pretty much the same dial. where's the fun in that?

the introduction of new abilities & dial values is a good challenge. i know it'll bug people who have figured out how to consistently win using the current abilities & dial values, and they'll probably feel roobed because their schemes no longer work. however, in the game and in life, you've gotta adapt to survive. new abilites & dials mean new challenges. they also mean that the game is going to stay healthy & interesting for a long time, so I say keep it comin' boys!

i do agree, however, that there needs to be some backwards-compatibility in terms of new character design. if iron man has a 10 range, don't give war machine a 14 range a couple of sets down the line - it's a disservice to the characters and the designers of earlier sets.

as long as the wizkids folks keep their eyes on the past while they move clix into the future, i think we'll find reasons to stay happy & keep clickin'.

[skforeman]

oh, and to address the issue most people have missed from the first post, i LOVE the fact that there are so many close-combat types in the game. sure, ranged combat is an effective tool, but i prefer it up-close and personal. gimme B/C/F over ranged combat expert any day.

can't wait to set my ninja wolvie out vs. silver samurai and some hand ninjas! boo-yah.

[voNvinGeLimeR]

...well said skforman.

A great deal of the fun for me is seeing the current power trends
of a given new set and adapting strategies to them. We had several
answers to the F-lord problem in CT in the form of 4 or 5 runningshot powerhouses who could out range ol' heat miser. I don't see him as
the problem he once was unless you as a player are solely concerned
with building low point tourney teams.

This set being perplex heavy (10 different characters I've counted in all)
allows anY piece past, present or future to be relevant in some way
with the right strategies attached. I find that exciting and all it requires
is a little planning and THOUGHT.

[PMMJ]

Again, I think the excess of Perplex is more of an issue.

12 range: on two figs. One is a unique, costing 85 points, and she only has two damage (three, using telekinesis.) The other, and only his veteran version has 12 range, is better, but costs 141 points! Both only have 1 bolt, as well.

Both would be a tight fit in a 200 pt. tourney team. I'm not worried about either.

[Thorgrin]

I think it'll be fine. So what that they have a range of 12? You'll have to perplex the damage to hit the invulnerable guys and even if you do, that's alright. They can always get some medic loving before they retaliate back. Not too concerned about the range really. There are still the overloving stealthed guys on top of that, so in the end, I think it'll be just fine.

[LuckyJ]

Any good player knows how to get around ranged attackers. It is my opinion that close combat characters are actually more dangerous, more phychologically tricky, and more effective in general if mastered.

We will never see the demise of close combat because those characters simply do massive amounts of damage MORE than ranged characters. Let's do a little comparison.

1) V Mandarin 141 3 damage max
V She-Hulk 120 7 damage max (adventure pack coke machine)

2) V Doc Samson just over 100 points: 8 damage with the coke, and 7 without!

3) All BCF characters can cripple almost any figure in the game with a good roll so who are the best ones so far?
U Wolverine
REV Taskmaster
U Elektra
EV Psylocke
U Spiral
REV Logan
V Sabretooth
The list goes on...

So, in conclusion, while there are so many great close-combat characters to choose from and so many STEALTH characters to choose from, I have no worries about ranged attackers; I think they're inferior generally except for the purposes of mind control.

So I'm of the opinion that if a 12 range kills the game for you then you weren't much of a player to begin with. Sorry, fella's, but that's how I feel 'bout it.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by Melkoloran
What will be interesting is if they release a Revised edition of IC and weaken/remove FL or Ultron...
And WHY, praytell, would they need to weakon or remove either figure, especially Ultron. This trend is far from disturbing and two figures will NOT render IC or CT obsolete.

[malchyor]

i find it amusing that some people equate the evolution of the game with a more diverse selection of abilities/powers, or higher stats.

they don't need these things. they just need a wider selection of characters and a good representation of those characters.

that's it. i don't need a 12 range as an excuse to play a pheonix. and i don't need a damage of 5 as a reason to play a savage hulk, tournament play or otherwise. besides, isn't increasing stats what perplex is for?