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I have a quick question concerning the DC Outdoor Map 3. This one is the one that looks life a park/safari. The is only one building on it with the thick black lines and no stairs or ladder. Can this be gotten on to, and if so, and the only was with LC or flying. My only problem with this is if a person with range is perched up there, and your opponent has no range or LC, how would they attack you. We plan on using this map later tonite. I would apprciate any advice on how this is offically/unofficaly played. Thanks in advance.:D
Could get an opinion or answer on this please. Thanks, everyone!!!:confused:
I don't jave my maps with me here... so I'm going to venture some guesses....
I'm assuming that this is an Outdoor map.
Since this 'building' has no Stairs or Ladders....
I'm thinking that it would be considered Outdoor Grounded Blocking terrain.
What does that mean.... a bunch of headaches...
The short of it:
Only figures with Hovering or the Leap/Climb or Phasing super power would be able to access those squares (the flying figure cannot taxi anyone there that cannot get there themselves).
So, the grounded figures without Range would not be able to attack any Ranged figures up there.
You can't move figures onto terrain that they can't get to themselves? Where did that come from? Thanks for the input. That should work.:)
CaptainCarl
03/05/2003, 14:50
i had the same question myself and i see what your gettin at almost like the AC vents on rooftops type of deals i can live with that stops some cheezy tactics like taxing bullseye up there =)
thanks
thecaptain
Like I said, I don't have a map... so I'm guessing...
This comes from the fact it is an Outdoor map.
It is being ruled that those squares that are surrounded by a Blocking terrain line and have no Stairs/Ladders are considered to be Outdoor Blocking terrain...
There are special rules concerning this... let me first see if we can get another judge to confirm exactly what those square are before I start rambling off the Outdoor Blocking terrain rules.
jedigeof
03/05/2003, 14:53
Its a marvel map from the big box. We've always played as though it was elevated.
DS-00-0, FSD
03/05/2003, 14:56
Tsannik is correct. This is actually the Outdoor map from the MARVEL premier set that is being discussed. Big pond in the middle.
There is a little four block area of blocking terrain.
Yeah, sorry...got the wrong universe...it's the one in the middle. :rolleyes: The last question that I really have is where does it says that you can't put figures on terrain that they couldn't get on/off of themselves.
Thanks!!!
The Pond map? Alrighty!
Soon I'll have all those maps scanned in and viewable via the web so that instead of wondering... you can just click on the map and get a ruling as to whether a square is clear or hindering, elevated or grounde, etc....right then and there.
It'll be neat-o!
Maybe one more question...Do you get the hindering terrain modifier for shooting through the water?
Mucho thanks!!!
where does it says that you can't put figures on terrain that they couldn't get on/off of themselves
Well, it doesn't really specifically say anywhere...
the closest is:
· The various airconditioners, vents, etc., are considered blocking terrain. These objects are defined as squares on rooftops surrounded by thick black lines.
· Only flying characters and characters with the Leap/Climb power can enter these spaces.
Under Blocking terrain...
Like I said, this is being discussed and the clarification for this type of terrain are being finalized as we speak.
Do you get the hindering terrain modifier for shooting through the water?
Water terrain is considered Hindering for Movement purposes only.
Water terrain is considered clear for Line of Fire purposes only.
Rock N' Roll...that should sum up everything. I've only been around for about a week...but I can say you guys are all awesome...
C-ya...
Viper:D
Originally posted by Tsannik
The Pond map? Alrighty!
Soon I'll have all those maps scanned in and viewable via the web so that instead of wondering... you can just click on the map and get a ruling as to whether a square is clear or hindering, elevated or grounde, etc....right then and there.
It'll be neat-o!
Hey Tsannik ... I already have all the official maps redrawn on my online gameboard (http://www.heroix.info/onlinegameboard.html). You might want to just load those one by one and take a screen shot, then you don't need to mess with scanning those big old things ...
Wow... what a great resource.... now I'll be able to answer map questions without actually having maps...
I'm actually scanning in each map in order to
1) Have the official map there so there can be no disagreement.
2) I'm writing descriptions in the little blocks that determine exactly what that square has in it.
So everyone will know.... here is a draft of what the rules are for those squares...This was originally for Elevated Blocking terrain, but now has to be redesignated as not all Outdoor Blocking terrain is elevated.
o You cannot occupy, or even access, an EBT square unless you are a Hovering figure, or possess the Leap/Climb or Phasing super power.
o While on an EBT square you are only allowed to make ranged attacks. You cannot engage in close combat (even if you have the Leap/Climb super power) unless your opponent is on an adjacent EBT square. .
o A Leap/Climb, Phasing or Hovering figure that ends its move on top of Elevated Blocking terrain is not considered to be adjacent to any other figure that is not also on top of Elevated Blocking terrain.
o If Leap/Climb or Phasing super power is lost while occupying an EBT square, that figure is considered stuck and cannot move off the EBT square without help.
o EBT squares are not considered additionally elevated, so you cannot fire over the heads of figures on Elevated Terrain.
o Figures who are adjacent to opposing figures occupying EBT squares are not considered to be adjacent unless they also occupy an EBT square.
o An EBT square is not considered hindering terrain (although it has a picture). The picture represents the blocking terrain (I.E. A/C unit, water tower, etc.). Figures with Stealth who occupy the EBT square can be seen and be fired upon. Object tokens cannot be placed on Elevated Blocking Terrain
tsannik -- i've read a lot of your posts and generally agree and appreciate your rulings, but this one throws me. granted, i've never played tournament, only with my friends, so our house rules apply -- although we try to stick with the official game rules.
i think to say that a flying character can't carry another character onto the EBT is a stretch. if a doombot wants to carry bullseye up there and drop him off whilst standing in an adjacent EBT square, then i don't see how this goes against the rules. or if a mandroid armor wants to TK my vet. blob on top of what i call the "gazeebo" on the pond map, then what's the problem? that sort of movement still applies using all the other rules. i mean, do fliers have to take the stairs when carrying someone onto a building? i don't think so. i think the rule is basically just saying that only a flyer and/or leap climber can enter those squares on their own steam. anyone else would need to be taxi'd or tk'd.
also -- if a leap climber can attack someone on an adjacent but different elevation from a building, why can't he/she be able to from the EBT? that ruling really just doesn't make much sense. i play those squares just like i would any other elevated terrain -- it's just that most characters would need help to get on them. i also apply normal elevated knockback rules too when need be.
in fact -- recently, we were playing on this map. one of the guys taxi'd his lame-o vet. firelord onto the gazeebo. i was playing all brotherhood which would've left me out of luck. but i tk'd my vet. blob using my r. magneto to tie up firelord and absorb some of his damage until i could figure something else out. i actually got lucky and rolled a crit. hit which devasted his firelord to his final click of health. meanwhile, his medic was taken out by my rookie toad. however, i still experienced my great demise once his desaad gained support. my point is -- these spaces shouldn't require extra ruling. the game plays just fine the way it is, treating them as normal elevated terrain that anyone can occupy, but not everyone can access on their own.
anyway -- that's my two cents. take it for what it's worth.
(edited for some typos... although i probably forgot some)
jedigeof
03/07/2003, 15:09
How did such a simple question turn into a huge headache. I just love judges that turn simple common sense into something that makes absolutly no sense. I'd love to see his take on the maps that have trucks. Outdoor blocking terrain is outdoor blocking terrain elevated terrain is elevated terrain. And yes outdoor blocking terrain can be on elevated terrain. The only way to enter outdoor blocking terrain is 1 have LC, 2 have flying, 3 have phasing, & last but not lease be taxied there. Simple so very simple. Oh and if your wondering The "flatbed" trucks are hindering terrain.
*sigh* I'll take the previous post as actually not being directed toward me...
The Outdoor/Elevated Blocking terrain rules are still being ratified. This type of terrain has to be the most misunderstood and the most incomprehensible of all the terrains.
Basically, on an Outdoor map... if there is no Stair or Ladder access to squares surrounded by Blocking terrain walls... then this typ of terrain is considered to be Outdoor/Elevated Blocking terrain. One of the rulings of this terrain is that no figure who cannot get there on his own... cannot be placed there at all. So, only flying figures and figure with Leap/Climb can go on this type of terrain.
I undestand that this really makes no sense. But this ruling is above me.
if a leap climber can attack someone on an adjacent but different elevation from a building, why can't he/she be able to from the EBT? This is because the Blocking terrain is considered to be the exact same elevation as the terrain it is sitting on. Since Leap/Climbers can only do a Close Combat action between elevation levels, this type of attack is not allowed.
I'd love to see his take on the maps that have trucks The trucks are considered 'Grounded Hindering' terrain.
The only way to enter outdoor blocking terrain is 1 have LC, 2 have flying, 3 have phasing, & last but not lease be taxied there.
Well, I'd like to think so, also. I'm still trying to get a definitive answer as to why Phasing doesn't work. I don't make the rules, I deliver them so that they will be understood by the masses... the way that the game designer intended. Is this what he intended? Probably not.... but it's a massive political game in order to get anyone to actually listen to what is going on. It took what seemed for ever for someone to realize that the Wizkids site might actually be wrong (E and V-Dr. Doom DO have 2 Ranged-target icons and U-Flash DOES have a 6 and 5 for his Attack values on his last two clicks). When will this make it to the masses via the FAQ? Who knows... But I'm trying my best to make the game as simlpe as possible.
This ruling is considered interim:
Outdoor/Elevated Blocking terrain is defined as squares surrounded by Blocking terrain walls (thick black lines) that do not have any apparent Stair or Ladder access.
o You cannot occupy, or even access, an O/EBT square unless you are a Hovering figure, or possess the Leap/Climb super power.
o While on an O/EBT square you are only allowed to make ranged attacks. You cannot engage in close combat (even if you have the Leap/Climb super power) unless your opponent is on an adjacent EBT square. .
o A Leap/Climb or Hovering figure that ends its move on top of Outdoor/Elevated Blocking terrain is not considered to be adjacent to any other figure that is not also on top of Outdoor/Elevated Blocking terrain.
o If Leap/Climb super power is lost while occupying an O/EBT square, that figure is considered stuck and cannot move off the O/EBT square without help.
o O/EBT squares are not considered additionally elevated, so you cannot fire over the heads of figures on Elevated Terrain.
o Figures who are adjacent to opposing figures occupying O/EBT squares are not considered to be adjacent unless they also occupy an O/EBT square.
o An O/EBT square is not considered hindering terrain (although it has a picture). The picture represents the blocking terrain (I.E. A/C unit, water tower, etc.). Figures with Stealth who occupy the EBT square can be seen and be fired upon. Object tokens cannot be placed on Elevated Blocking Terrain
* Knockback from O/EBT is treated as if it were knock back from a normal square. If a figure is knocked back 2 squares while on O/EBT.. he will be knocked back 2 squares... and take no damage (unless he gets further knocked back into another Blocking terrain wall).
This ruling is considered interim. It is currently being reviewed and ratified on the WK Judges forum.
jedigeof
03/07/2003, 19:42
Well I sure an the hell hope logic prevails in this matter. I'd hate to actually have to start playing with house rules. I really hate people that try to fix things that aren't broken. The trucks with thick black lines we play as outdoor blocking terrain. Makes sense with some logic thrown in for flavor. Oh and The musem map has indoor elevated terrain. Again logic and common sense at work.
montecchi
03/09/2003, 20:14
... ie. the A/C units on top of the buildings and since two characters can't be in one square it makes since that you can't access those squares unless you have flight or L/C but in the case of the gazebo there are four squares. I see this as a common sense issue that will be errated away sometime soon i'm sure. indoor EBT is one thing, and is understandable by thinking that it's stacked to the ceiling leaving no room to stand, but to say you can't fly someone on top of an area large enough to hold multiple figures outside is silly... almost as silly as the first ruling that i heard on the area in question during a tourney i was playing. my opponent L/Ced up there using batman and i tried to take a shot at him (from a figure that had gone unnoticed) and a ruling was asked for from the judge... seems that he wanted it to be considered hindering... (hindering blocking elevated terrain)and that's what the judge called it, making my shot impossible and costing me the round. that's my marker for worse ruling ever... i mean think about it, you get 4 batman team characters up there and it's game over unless you have a bunch of L/Cers at the base, and good luck getting them there...
Mr. Peepers sez,"BAAAHHH!!!"
jedigeof
03/09/2003, 20:31
It's not hindering (pulls at hair)! The ruling that their making is a LCer at the base could not Attack them (pulls at judges hair).
well, as much as i like to follow the rules of the game as closely as possible, this one sucks. so the house rules will prevail in this case! besides, since none of us play tourneys, what does it matter?
jedigeof
03/11/2003, 17:13
Well I do play tourneys. I own the DC premire map & my Judge owns the marvel map. He's one of the smart judges, and I'm sure will rule in the favor of common sense. Not to mention their just more fun to play that way try it you'll like it. We've never had to play with house rules before. However that ruling makes zero sense.
flanimal
03/16/2003, 01:41
FINALLY!
Iv'e been waiting to hear those words for awhile now.
"Object tokens cannot be placed on Elevated Blocking Terrain"
If this becomes the rule, problem solved. If not ,were all going to be sorry, and this is why.
pre-statement-I could place an object anywhere on the map(so of course I will put it on the ebt on the building edge(intersection map in this example). my first turn, I will destroy the object with a fig then move batman on the square in question, If my opponent doesn't have a superman ally, batman is *almost invincible. The only other way to get to him would be to destroy the blocking terrain(walls if you will), and by that time batman has probally taken out anything in his range.
that was the friendly example, heres the evil one.
same idea but placing the object on ebt that is 2 spaces big, then taxing someone and dropping them on object(or destroyed object, thats now hindering terrain)usually ultron or dr. doom taxiing invisible girl( and having a batman ally on team).
So I am all for the rule correction, and I also think they should not let you place them adjacent to each other or hindering terrain. But thats just my opinion.
As Tsannik said, he's not the one making the O/EBT rules, he's just trying to translate them into English :p
Seriously, though, I'm not sure that even the rules arbitrators & designers have spent as much time with (and had as many migraines over) the O/EBT rules as Tsannik. You can rest assured that whatever the current official ruling is (no matter how illogical it may be), Tsannik knows what it is and how to explain it.
double_a
03/16/2003, 11:12
Rulebook:
Objects:
"Objects must be placed on clear terrain (see Clear Terrain) and cannot be placed in any player’s starting area. "
Clear Terrain:
"Clear terrain is defined as open space with no obstructions, such as a rooftop or an empty street. Characters can move and fire through clear terrain with no penalty to their speed or attack values."
As Tsannik tried to explain - EBT is not clear terrain (you can't fire through it & only phasers can move through it) so therefore objects cannot be placed there at the beginning of the game.
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