Which requires more strategy DC or Marvel?

[irweasel]

So now that the Marvel clix greatly outnumber the DC clix, which do you think takes more strategy to win with.
Winning DC vs Marvel?
Winning DC vs DC?
Winning Marvel vs Marvel?

And who has more cheese?

[Manchine]

DC has more cheese.

Marvel has more stategy involved in it. Just becuase more characters, like in the comics, and less outwit.

[scowlingone]

DC has much less cheese; low attack values, low defense values, only a few models with a range of 10, no wildcards yet, very few characters can do more than three damage, fewer models with Stealth, and there's a built-in way to get around Stealth (the Superman team ability).

And, of course, there are far fewer DC models.

More Outwit means more strategy, and the Outwit in DC teams is much more expensive than in Marvel teams (there's no equivalent of R Black Panther in DC).

Put it together, and DC vs. DC is the most strategic play type.

DC-only teams have a great deal of difficulty against Marvel-only teams, with their high attack values, high defense, high ranges, wildcards, high damage and such.

[Manchine]

Now you got 2 completely different opinions :D :D ;) :p

[WFUnDina]

on breaks @ work, my friend and I have been playing Marvel Vs DC. I construct very fair and evenly matched teams one of each and then we each get one chance with each team. So Far Marvel is 3-0! Tonight, though, is my turn with the JLA to bring down the FF. We've moded the rules to make it a little more even, each team is 438 points. Everyone has the JLA and FF team abilities. Both Teams, no other team abilities count. You only get 3 attacks per round, unless you get leadership!
If I can't win with the JLA 2nite, we may have to go with the official rules though. We are playing on the house map from the indoor adventure set.

JLA FF
EXP Superman Unq Medusa
EXP Flash Vet Thing
EXP Plasitic Man Exp Mr. Fantastic
VET Aquaman Rok Invisible Girl
Rok Booster Gold Exp Shadow Cat
Rok Batman Rok She Hulk
Rok Human Torch
I saw him waste the Flash's and Batman's outwit for the first 4 rounds. Never rolled for leadership, Concentrated all of his attack on Invisible Girl, who was surrounded all game, I feel pretty confident that I can crush this team. Last night I took his team out in order so noone got the ff ability, which did not help him. I'll try and do the same, tonight. Wish me luck!

[Spookythecat]

Did someone say that DC has more cheese? Tee-hee. That's funny, funny stuff.

And, while Hypertime had more dial and Board Control figures than Infinity Challenge (hence more strategic elements), the release of Clobberin' Time and all the new powers therein kind of tipped the balance back towards Marvel, IMO.

[NateTG]

In general DC has:
Lower attack and defense values
Faster fliers
Shorter shooting range
Higher damage
More powers and Outwit

I'm not sure what you mean by more strategy. Pure Marvel vs. Pure DC probably favors Marvel.

If you're playing Marvel games, the dominant style of
play is taxi-shooter. That style of game is extremely
strategic -- you try to identify and eliminate threats.

DC games are likely to be more up close, personal, and tactically oriented. There's a lot more room for opportunism in the DC set because of the lower defeses and the higher damage.

[hudson20]

Well marvel has the chesselord, which the #1 most cheesey figure around, bullseye and black panther are some other marvel offenders.

DC's chesse involves EVERYONE in the Batman comic series, DC has so much outwit that it's nearly impossible to use powers like charge and impervious because they are just immediately taken away in any dc game.

Nightwing might be the worst offender of the bunch, however the good news is that he only has a 16 defense and once he takes a measly 3 damage his offensive capability's are surpassed by most medics. Firecheese is a lot harder to kill.

[Thorgrin]

Actually DC has TONS of people with out. Heck, you have two intergang medics together and you've got two people with support and one automatically gets outwit.

There are fewer models, that is true, so you have to pick and choose carefully.

As far as low attack values, 9 and 10 are perfectly fine with the clobbering time figures. Most are around 15-16 defense, so you'll need a 6-7 (which is about odds) to hit for the most part. There are no PC for DC, however, so you're stuck on that one.

Nightwing and Batman are the "firelords" of DC. Yes, Nightwing only does 3 points of damage... He outwits the opponents impervious/invulnerability/toughness AND he can also have his damage perplexed up. So with two harley quinns, he's doing 5 points of damage onto a vet she-hulk. Firelord (the almighty) only does 3, unless you two have an outwitter. Batman has it as well. Both are on the batman team, so that = free stealth.

Not saying DC is anything better, but it does have tons of cheese if you look around.

Originally posted by scowlingone
DC has much less cheese; low attack values, low defense values, only a few models with a range of 10, no wildcards yet, very few characters can do more than three damage, fewer models with Stealth, and there's a built-in way to get around Stealth (the Superman team ability).

And, of course, there are far fewer DC models.

More Outwit means more strategy, and the Outwit in DC teams is much more expensive than in Marvel teams (there's no equivalent of R Black Panther in DC).

Put it together, and DC vs. DC is the most strategic play type.

DC-only teams have a great deal of difficulty against Marvel-only teams, with their high attack values, high defense, high ranges, wildcards, high damage and such.

[kraven]

Yes Dc has a lot of cheese but not near as bad as Marvel (cough . . . .firelord cough... bullseye), '


But to answer the question, Dc is way way more Stragical game!

[Billy Jack]

Actually the more figures you have requires the more strategy to use, that's why if your going buy pure set I have to give it to marvel. Allthough I love the dc set.

[NightWing14]

DC easily requires more strategy.

To refute some of the above points:

"As far as low attack values, 9 and 10 are perfectly fine with the clobbering time figures. Most are around 15-16 defense, so you'll need a 6-7 (which is about odds) to hit for the most part. There are no PC for DC, however, so you're stuck on that one."

However Marvel has IC, have a look at all the people whining about Ironmans attack values.

"Nightwing and Batman are the "firelords" of DC. Yes, Nightwing only does 3 points of damage... He outwits the opponents impervious/invulnerability/toughness AND he can also have his damage perplexed up. So with two harley quinns, he's doing 5 points of damage onto a vet she-hulk. Firelord (the almighty) only does 3, unless you two have an outwitter. Batman has it as well. Both are on the batman team, so that = free stealth.

Not saying DC is anything better, but it does have tons of cheese if you look around."

Although Batman and Nightwing are frequently used, they could hardly be called the "Firelord" of DC. With fairly easy-to-hit Defence of 16 (especially for Marvels 10+ attack values) and no damage reducing powers they loose outwit fairly quickly. Compare to Firelords 18 Defence (20 at range) and 12 attack value?!?


"Actually the more figures you have requires the more strategy to use, that's why if your going buy pure set I have to give it to marvel. Allthough I love the dc set."

I would have to disagree. More figures means more options. This is why booster draft tournaments can be so difficult. You can choose from characters to cover every situation.

Sorry for the Rant, I just really don't think there is much comparison at present.

[irweasel]

So I think we all agree that the Batman team ability is the cheesiest part of DC and Firelord is the cheesiest part of Marvel.
But I believe despite the limited number of figures I always have better odds of winning with my DC team.

http://www.hcrealms.com/cgi-bin/quickviewteam.cgi?teamname=NightwingsJLA&username=irweasel&action=graphic

So dare I say it, I gotta go with Marvel being a more strategic set. Since you would have to be a better player to beat a solid DC team.

[GroovyBoy]

This is a loaded question, based somewhat on the fact that a game of HeroClix is determined heavily on dice results. You can be the worst player in the world, but if you roll high and your opponent rolls low, your DC team can beat a Marvel team with little or no strategy involved. Conversely, you can be a tactical genius while your opponent sticks his thumb up his butt, but if all you do is roll snake eyes, you're not going to come out on top.

Having a solid strategy improves your chances to win, but doesn't guarantee it. Some DC teams are better than some Marvel teams, but some Marvel teams are better than some DC teams. Sweeping generalizations are ignorant and pointless.

[irweasel]

I probably should have worded that better. What I mean by requiring more strategy with a solid Marvel team is based on nothing more than my own opinion. But I will say this I have played many a game with my friends and with my DC team I am undefeated (something like 12-0) and the only loses I have taken is when I have used Marvel teams or quickly put together DC teams. Now granted you could make the argument that all my friends are idiots but, some of them have been playing herroclix a lot longer than me so they should have at least improved over time.
So in my opinion I think the Batman team ability combined with more characters with outwit at the start of their dials (not the end of the dial when their seconds from death as in the majority of the Marvel set) makes DC the less strategic game. Because I believe if you take that away it comes down to a lot of strategic board control and conservation/maximization of moves to get the same advantage with a Marvel team.

[tyroc]

Nearly every weekend i play in a tournement of 300 points/4 matches. Two are Marvel and 2 are DC. The DC is much more strategy because you have no reroll, you got all the bat people with stealth, lots of outwit, shorter ranges, no wildcard abilities.

When i play marvel you have much more options open. Where DC is limited in what you can do so to come up with better strategies is harder.

[Melkoloran]

I've found that the amount of Outwit in DC requires more strategy because it's not just, "Ok, I'll charge with X and then range with RCE with Y." With all the Outwit out there, you have to consider multiple strategies depending on what you think your opponent will outwit.

[irweasel]

I guess this makes DC a more strategic game in the fact that you can unexpectedly take away advantages a player once had with outwit. And a large part of the strategy lies in having to think your opponets moves out also.

But, my argument is it is harder to take down a Juggernaut without outwit as opposed to with even for the experienced player. And with the exception of BP you don't have this option with fresh characters in a Marvel game.

[Thorgrin]

Yes, but firelord can't attack them in hindering terrain.

Remember, Firelord's main "cheesiness' is the fact that he can be taxied and do 5 points of damage. The same thing can be done with the aforementioned Batman/Nightwing. They can be taxied into range, perplexed before they even get there, outwit someone defensive power (whether it's energy deflection, impervious, invulnerability, toughness) and still hit for 3, 4, 5, etc and it goes straight through. On the flipside, you'll have to taxi firelord up to the person to do 3 points. That's a lot, I'll concede that point, however, now you've got firelord where you want him to be as opposed to where your opponent may want him to be. Yes, 18 is a good defense, but with the right figure and/or strategy, that's not an overwhelming stat... Even for DC. Especially with perplexers around, PD (DCs version of Hydra), etc.

DC just doesn't need much strategy, especially if you're playing a DC only game. All you need is to run the "core" group of people and you win. The occassionaly Steel or Superman helps out as a counter, but superman costs a boatload for what ends up being a really bad figure (with all the outwit in DC) and same goes for most of the brawlers. Bane? No prob. I'll just outwit his CCE w/Batbrains then outwit his toughness w/nightwing and then go ahead and attack him twice dealing 6 points to him.

With the lack of outwit, at least the lack of outwit on the first click at the least, in Marvel, it does require a little more strategy and positioning. Sorry, but DCs pretty easy to figure out now, which is sad. I'd like to play a lot more of the bruisers, but it's not worth it.

As far as firelord is concerned, I've beaten him with so many different teams (even teams comprised of multiple firelords) that I don't think he's as cheesy as people think he is. Whether that's just strategy on my part or the lack of it in my opponent, I can't say, but he's not that terrible AND he's only one figure....

Originally posted by NightWing14
DC easily requires more strategy.

To refute some of the above points:

"As far as low attack values, 9 and 10 are perfectly fine with the clobbering time figures. Most are around 15-16 defense, so you'll need a 6-7 (which is about odds) to hit for the most part. There are no PC for DC, however, so you're stuck on that one."

However Marvel has IC, have a look at all the people whining about Ironmans attack values.

"Nightwing and Batman are the "firelords" of DC. Yes, Nightwing only does 3 points of damage... He outwits the opponents impervious/invulnerability/toughness AND he can also have his damage perplexed up. So with two harley quinns, he's doing 5 points of damage onto a vet she-hulk. Firelord (the almighty) only does 3, unless you two have an outwitter. Batman has it as well. Both are on the batman team, so that = free stealth.

Not saying DC is anything better, but it does have tons of cheese if you look around."

Although Batman and Nightwing are frequently used, they could hardly be called the "Firelord" of DC. With fairly easy-to-hit Defence of 16 (especially for Marvels 10+ attack values) and no damage reducing powers they loose outwit fairly quickly. Compare to Firelords 18 Defence (20 at range) and 12 attack value?!?


"Actually the more figures you have requires the more strategy to use, that's why if your going buy pure set I have to give it to marvel. Allthough I love the dc set."

I would have to disagree. More figures means more options. This is why booster draft tournaments can be so difficult. You can choose from characters to cover every situation.

Sorry for the Rant, I just really don't think there is much comparison at present.

[Thorgrin]

To be honest, I don't even really take into the fact of my special abilities with all the outwit there is. I only rely on my team abilities when I play DC only because that's the only thing you can rely on. Generally speaking, I get the auto stealthed peeps (batman guys) and just range all day. If I need to get up closer, I'll get whatever taxi I have that carried the bats teams and just move on up.

That and the fact that DC is so much more unpopular right now as far as clix goes. I don't believe it has anything to do with the figures and/or powers, but the fact that DC is probably making Wizkids drag their feet so much that it's hard to get into it. Hmmm, I can play with 130 guys total with DC OR I can play with 150 + 96 (CT) + 96 (X) = 346 guys. So roughly 2.5 times more figures = more variety = more figures you have to plan for = more strategy.

Not saying DC is totally devoid of strategy, but I think DC you see more of a trend than in Marvel. Granted, when IC came out, it was a steady staple of Bullseye, Ultron and/or Firelord. However, with all the expansions that have came out, the really only staple from IC I see come out on a regular basis any more is Ultron. Sure firelord comes out from time to time as well as Bullseye, but with more variety comes more teams of things you normally wouldn't see.

Originally posted by irweasel
I guess this makes DC a more strategic game in the fact that you can unexpectedly take away advantages a player once had with outwit. And a large part of the strategy lies in having to think your opponets moves out also.

But, my argument is it is harder to take down a Juggernaut without outwit as opposed to with even for the experienced player. And with the exception of BP you don't have this option with fresh characters in a Marvel game.