Should Only One Pair of Dice be Used in Heroclix games?

[hclixinarcadia]

I've always contended that dice should be eliminated as a variable factor in determining the winner of a game of Heroclix.

One should win due to ones team, playing skills, and a little bit of luck.

Using one pair of dice per map eliminates any and all dice related issues namely:

1. unsanctioned dice - you don't have to worry about whether which dice were sanctioned and which ones were not.
2. manufacturer defects - you don't have to worry about properly balanced dice. It will be the same advantage/disadvantage for both of you.
3. loaded dice - by the same principle as manufacturer defects, it will be the same advantage for both of you.

I do feel that there should be a rule on dice but that is just my opinion.

[PaxZRake]

I use between one and seven pairs of dice per game.

[Munchoboy]

I understand the concerns and issues you raise, but fail to see how WK could set the standard re: which dice (i.e. what manufacturer, which model, etc...) are to be used, or even why they should. This seems to be a level of involvement that goes beyond their perview IMHO.

I think its far easier to simply come to a consensus (i.e. "house rules") at one's Venue re: how dice will be used, rather than ask WK to set the standard. It just seems less complicated for players to agree on a normative value than the alternative.

Just my $.02.

[hclixinarcadia]

I use between one and seven pairs of dice per game.

so you switch around depending on whether they are rolling hot or cold?

[Hesster56]

No. Players are free to choose their dice just like athletes can choose their own shoes. If a die is suspect, get a judge. Personally I see far more people cheating their rolls than cheating their dice. I've seen a lot of people set the dice in their hands and drop them more than roll them, getting s favorable result.

[hclixinarcadia]

I understand the concerns and issues you raise, but fail to see how WK could set the standard re: which dice (i.e. what manufacturer, which model, etc...) are to be used, or even why they should. This seems to be a level of involvement that goes beyond their perview IMHO.

I think its far easier to simply come to a consensus (i.e. "house rules") at one's Venue re: how dice will be used, rather than ask WK to set the standard. It just seems less complicated for players to agree on a normative value than the alternative.

Just my $.02.
I appreciate the input.

Didn't WK try to set the standard by saying that certain dice can't be used? I think it's the ones that have custom designs on them.

Wouldn't it be easier for WK to just say "winner of map roll provides the dice for the game"

Didn't WK house rule it to be "organizer provides two pairs on the table" at 2010 Gencon? Why not make that "the" rule?

I believe that two years ago, it was "one pair for table" wasn't it? Do you know why that was ditched for 2010?

[Munchoboy]

I appreciate the input.

Didn't WK try to set the standard by saying that certain dice can't be used? I think it's the ones that have custom designs on them.

I can't say. I can say that I do not recall such a proclaimation.

Wouldn't it be easier for WK to just say "winner of map roll provides the dice for the game"

I don't see how that would make the situation less suspect or prone to potential abuse.

Didn't WK house rule it to be "organizer provides two pairs on the table" at 2010 Gencon? Why not make that "the" rule?

No. WK provides the dice at the large events, but AFAIK, you are not required to use them. (Perhaps Harpua or Norm can chime in, as I didn't work the hall this year at GenCon so I'm not privy if they changed this)

I believe that two years ago, it was "one pair for table" wasn't it? Do you know why that was ditched for 2010?

Perhaps because we had more dice to distribute? :laugh:

This may seem flippant, but over the years the supplies in the WK "road box" dwindled as dice, maps, counters, etc...went missing after every. single. show. Sometimes stuff was lost, tossed, or never returned.

This year, we had to rebuild the road box from scratch. This involved getting enough dice to supply both players at each potential match. ;)

[hclixinarcadia]

No. Players are free to choose their dice just like athletes can choose their own shoes. If a die is suspect, get a judge. Personally I see far more people cheating their rolls than cheating their dice. I've seen a lot of people set the dice in their hands and drop them more than roll them, getting s favorable result.
To me, dice are more like the game ball. You don't switch balls when the other team goes on offense do you?

But I see your point about dice being a part of someone's identity just like the athlete with his pair of shoes.

And, you are right. If someone's a cheater they are going to cheat no matter what... dropping the dice, under-clicking, etc. But, at least you take one way to cheat out of the equation without having some kind of embarrassing confrontation.

[Munchoboy]

And, you are right. If someone's a cheater they are going to cheat no matter what... dropping the dice, under-clicking, etc. But, at least you take one way to cheat out of the equation without having some kind of embarrassing confrontation.

There are a lot of ways to handle a cheater without it being an embarrasing confrontation. However, since this is more up to the Judge than not, one's mileage may vary.

[PaxZRake]

so you switch around depending on whether they are rolling hot or cold?

It's a bit more involved than that, but yes :)

At the start of the game I'll take all my dice and roll them. They get matched up based on result. I use the 6's first and go down until I need to use the 1's.

It's not terribly uncommon for me to do this a second time during a game.

If the pair of dice don't roll an average roll (or higher, I'm good with exceptional dice), I switch them out, unless one die rolled a 6, in which case I keep it in.

[trybal69]

to be honest, it doesn't matter what dice i use, sometimes i only need a 3 and end up with snake eyes and that's with the highest attack rating attainable with the rule of 3. sometimes s**t happens. even to the best players.

[Azrael0626]

Didn't WK try to set the standard by saying that certain dice can't be used? I think it's the ones that have custom designs on them.



The only thing that I somewhat recall from years ago was that the dice must be standard dice not oversized, undersized or the big die with the little die inside. I really don't remember if it came directly from Wizkids or not.

I have a few custom dice (Batman, Superboy, Green Lantern, etc.) and if I had those characters on my team I would like to be able to roll those dice for those characters with their symbols on them.

Someone already mentioned that if someone is going to cheat, then they are going to find other ways to do it. It sounds to me like you might have some problems with a suspected cheater. If that is the case, then it is up to the players to bring it to the judge's attention and for him to deal with it. If he doesn't, then you need a new judge.

[hclixinarcadia]

I don't see how that would make the situation less suspect or prone to potential abuse.
doesn't one dice per table eliminate all kinds of dice abuse issues? Not all but a lot.


This may seem flippant, but over the years the supplies in the WK "road box" dwindled as dice, maps, counters, etc...went missing after every. single. show. Sometimes stuff was lost, tossed, or never returned.

This year, we had to rebuild the road box from scratch. This involved getting enough dice to supply both players at each potential match. ;)
Wouldn't it be less expensive to have the competitors provide their own counters and dice? Maps... I can see how not all players can have it.

There are a lot of ways to handle a cheater without it being an embarrasing confrontation. However, since this is more up to the Judge than not, one's mileage may vary.
lol, the reason I'm asking all these questions is:
1. I'm running my first tournament as judge this Thursday and I'm thinking of house-ruling it to "one dice per table" but I'm not sure how others would take it.
2. There may be a big Southern Cal Clix Day coming soon and I want to come up with the proper dice policy if I end up running one of the qualifiers for it.

Thanks. I really appreciate everyone's input.

[hclixinarcadia]

The only thing that I somewhat recall from years ago was that the dice must be standard dice not oversized, undersized or the big die with the little die inside. I really don't remember if it came directly from Wizkids or not.

I have a few custom dice (Batman, Superboy, Green Lantern, etc.) and if I had those characters on my team I would like to be able to roll those dice for those characters with their symbols on them.
yup, I totally see your point. Dice give a cool flavor to it all. However, in a serious match, dice defects shouldn't be a factor in anything.

Someone already mentioned that if someone is going to cheat, then they are going to find other ways to do it. It sounds to me like you might have some problems with a suspected cheater. If that is the case, then it is up to the players to bring it to the judge's attention and for him to deal with it. If he doesn't, then you need a new judge.
oh, no issues with a suspected cheater. Just trying to come up with a good rule to avoid issues with cheaters.

[victory2assault]

I think only standard dice should be use in big game tournaments. I don't care for small venues, but Gencon and the big tournaments only standard dice should be used. They could be provided by Wizkids, don't think it would be an issue at all.

[Munchoboy]

doesn't one dice per table eliminate all kinds of dice abuse issues? Not all but a lot.

In a rational, reasonable world I would say "yes".

Over the years running events for one company or another, I've found it best to pick and choose my "battles" wisely. If a problem doesn't exist (i.e. with dice), why create the illusion of one?

That said, you're free to institute whatever house rules you want. I just don't think this is a discussion that need involve WK.

Wouldn't it be less expensive to have the competitors provide their own counters and dice? Maps... I can see how not all players can have it.

Worlds is supposed to represent the pinnacle of HeroClix play. I think it is appropriate, at that level of play, for WK to offer to provide maps and dice for players to use should they decide to.

lol, the reason I'm asking all these questions is:
1. I'm running my first tournament as judge this Thursday and I'm thinking of house-ruling it to "one dice per table" but I'm not sure how others would take it.

As a rule, I never institute a normative value or expectaion without first discussing it with my players. I let them know, in no uncertain terms, that the final decision rests with me, but that I do want their input.

Based upon that dialogue, I make the decision I feel best for the situation and the group.

2. There may be a big Southern Cal Clix Day coming soon and I want to come up with the proper dice policy if I end up running one of the qualifiers for it.

Seems to me that if you're potentially running an event that is part of a larger whole, that everyone involved should be on the same page. I would discuss this with the other organizers.

Thanks. I really appreciate everyone's input.

There are actually numerous threads on this topic, and just as many varying veiwpoints.

[hclixinarcadia]

In a rational, reasonable world I would say "yes".

Over the years running events for one company or another, I've found it best to pick and choose my "battles" wisely. If a problem doesn't exist (i.e. with dice), why create the illusion of one?

That said, you're free to institute whatever house rules you want. I just don't think this is a discussion that need involve WK.
ok, I get you now.


Worlds is supposed to represent the pinnacle of HeroClix play. I think it is appropriate, at that level of play, for WK to offer to provide maps and dice for players to use should they decide to.
well put.



As a rule, I never institute a normative value or expectaion without first discussing it with my players. I let them know, in no uncertain terms, that the final decision rests with me, but that I do want their input.

Based upon that dialogue, I make the decision I feel best for the situation and the group.
My plan is to suggest it but since it is not in the rules, they don't have to do it.

[Hesster56]

It's a bit more involved than that, but yes :)

At the start of the game I'll take all my dice and roll them. They get matched up based on result. I use the 6's first and go down until I need to use the 1's.

It's not terribly uncommon for me to do this a second time during a game.

If the pair of dice don't roll an average roll (or higher, I'm good with exceptional dice), I switch them out, unless one die rolled a 6, in which case I keep it in.

I quantum-load my dice. Before games and after every roll, I set the three dice pairs that I'll be using so the sixes are up, and let the molecular motion of the atoms increase the weight of the ones.

[llyrghmnghyll]

Unless Specially designed so to do most dice are less random than they ought to be. in top tier play I think a cup, dice tray, and Vegas dice should be used. It's not a bad Idea to implement such a system in lower tier play as well.

I've noticed that my Lord of the rings Hex dice roll extremely bad. This is based on observation and use of those dice over 7 years. They have never averaged 3.5 over virtually any interim.

[cteshwayo]

I consider myself a rational person. I generally expect the world to behave in certain logical ways based upon the known physical laws of the universe. And I don't mind saying that when it comes to dice, I am superstitious as a Medieval peasant.

My general rule with dice is I never roll the same set more than three times in a row, because they tend to turn on me. I like to have enough dice on hand (Generally 4-8, sometimes more) to be able to change when I feel a pair of dice has "gone bad".

I quantum-load my dice. Before games and after every roll, I set the three dice pairs that I'll be using so the sixes are up, and let the molecular motion of the atoms increase the weight of the ones.

I generally do the opposite- I put the ones up, so the dice get them out of their systems. Medieval peasant, gentlemen.

That said, for large events, such as Worlds, it seems to make sense that dice would be provided, and that nonstandard dice (IE ones dramatically different from a simple 1/4 to 1.2 inch cube with the numbers 1-6 indicated on each side in a certain way), should not be allowed. I see no problem with letting someone have a regular set of dice, though.

[supremepontiff]

i use my FF starter or BN starter dice. That's it... whatever pair i'm not using marks my theme rerolls, cont plan tokens, etc.


-RmL

[MopedKid86]

I have four pairs of dice I carry with me when playing.
A standard pair.
A smaller, purple pair (same size as BN dice)
The Blackest Night Dice.
1 inch cubed purple foam dice.

I also have a pair of 4.5 inch foam dice. They're awesome, but they tend to lay waste to the game board when rolled incorrectly (which happens frequently with them) so I don't use them often.

Regardless of which pair I'm currently on, or which method i use to determine which pair I should use next, they all roll similarly on the same day.

One day with those purple foam ones (for which I was known at a venue I played at long ago) I rolled two crits, two impervs, and an attack roll of eleven. In the first three turns of the game. My opponent became upset and the judge simply ruled the dice as illegal. So I bought a pair (the little purple ones I have to this day) and proceeded to roll similarly and thrash the guy.
Now any other player at the venue could have told him that the week before, and the week before that, those purple dice failed me repeatedly.

The past few weeks, all four of my sets of dice have been in a funk. My average roll during the last tournament I was at was around a 5. I didn't critical miss once, I just couldn't roll well except once in a blue moon targeting a weaker opposing character.

Unless they're loaded, dice have little to do with the game. If they're loaded, someone WILL notice. The Judge can handle it.

[IceHot]

In a big tournament I think the dice should all be WK dice all of the same shape and size with the same rounded edges.

However, there should be plenty to choose from and you should be able to swap out dice whenever you want.

Ideally I would say 8 dice to a table.

[Norym]

This situation seems to fall under the First Rule of Command: "Never give an order you know will not be obeyed."

I can understand restricting dice for Worlds or something, but in the weekly events seems too restrictive.

If you suspect shenanigans deal with it, one on one at first, as a group/venue if it continues.

If you run too tight a game, then you will lose players. I would be one of them. I like dice, I like buying dice, my venue that provides the tables, heat and space for me to play likes me buying clix and dice. Relax, dice are an integral part of the game.


I bring probably 40 pairs of dice to a game. I pick 2 or 3 pair per match. My CBT box probably has 100+ dice in the bag I carry for that.




I generally do the opposite- I put the ones up, so the dice get them out of their systems. Medieval peasant, gentlemen.



I also do this. It is one of my 'conditions'.

[hclixinarcadia]

One day with those purple foam ones (for which I was known at a venue I played at long ago) I rolled two crits, two impervs, and an attack roll of eleven. In the first three turns of the game. My opponent became upset and the judge simply ruled the dice as illegal.
see? one pair of dice on the table would have avoided all this would it not?

Unless they're loaded, dice have little to do with the game.
that's true

If they're loaded, someone WILL notice. The Judge can handle it.The question is, how will you notice? When someone has rolled high several times and as shown by your story, even that is inconclusive. And, how does one find out for sure if dice are loaded? Do you have some kind of dice weighing scale handy? Do you just feel the weight in your hands? What if they are just slightly heavier on one side?

[hclixinarcadia]

This situation seems to fall under the First Rule of Command: "Never give an order you know will not be obeyed."
lol, L.A. Unified teachers can benefit from that.


If you run too tight a game, then you will lose players. I would be one of them. I like dice, I like buying dice, my venue that provides the tables, heat and space for me to play likes me buying clix and dice. Relax, dice are an integral part of the game.
ahhh very true... that is also a general rule in Marketing... if you say no to this and no to that, you won't get any customers... or something like that.

I bring probably 40 pairs of dice to a game. I pick 2 or 3 pair per match. My CBT box probably has 100+ dice in the bag I carry for that.

I also do this. It is one of my 'conditions'.
lol, my nephew brings a ton of dice to his games. So yes, I do understand how dice is important to people.

[Woodsman4869]

Personally I use 3-4 dice per game, but I think there should atleast be a rule on sixe,shape,etc; No giant, super small sizes, or odd shapes like the rhombus shaped dice a freind of mine uses.

[Kizer]

If this is really a problem, them perhaps the table organizer should supply the dice? It sounds ridiculous at first, but it should eliminate this fear of people using leaded dice and what not.

[batman1970]

No one has brought this up--and I probably shouldn't since we are talking heroclix players--but what about hygiene? I bring my own dice for the pure and simple reason that I know EXACTLY who has touched them--ME. I am a little OCD (okay more than a little) about hygiene, especially where my hands are concerned, so I would want to know that the "house dice" are being cleaned between matches. And I DEFINITELY would not want to share dice with my opponent. Who knows where his/her hands have been.

[crazymike2501]

hmm... dice...

i played a game last night and was reminded of a pair of loaded dice my friend once used... he openly admitted they were and we let him use them anyway... they betrayed him... but in the game last night i was suspicious of one pair because he ALWAYS got his rolls... or maybe i was just paranoid because i was losing all night...

[da-Craig-O]

Two years ago at Gencon, we all had to use the single pair of dice for that map.

I definitely was not using my own dice for the Worlds tournament.

[ben138]

use what dice you want, but maybe it could be considered good sportsmanship to not use dice with incomprehensible designs on the faces.
stick to pips or numerals.

[obesesniper93]

i really dont see an issue the way it is.
dice are dice. unless they're misbalanced/loaded, theres NO way to tell what will be rolled next other than simple odds.

personally, i use one set of dice all game, every game.
and i dont mind custom dice, as long as im told what the symbol(s) mean.

[IceHot]

The question is, how will you notice?
When I was a judge here is what I used to do.

Ok, first a little background. As a judge you always want to be supportive of new players and you want to cultivate an environment that new players feel welcome, but at the same time you dont want outside players sharking prizes and tearing down the playing community you worked to build.

Thus you have to be aware that some players may come in with loaded dice and some players may come in just to have some fun. You cant tell the difference just by looking at a player. Some nice players are quiet. Some unscrupulous players are jovial.

So here is what I would do.....

At the start of the match I would always have players roll their dice in front of me for pairings. A primary roll and tie-breaking roll. This gave me an opportunity to physically observe the way they roll the dice and how the dice bounced and spun. If the dice appeared weighted and rolled two 12s in a row I could keep my eyes on that new players match without calling the player out.

One player that caught my eye was using some funny bone dice. He got on a hot streak with his dice, but not too hot. Next time he came in he used the same dice and I figured I would keep a close eye on him. He ended up rolling like 3 critical misses in a row and was a pretty good sport about it. So that pretty much settled that.

I ended up asking him to be my backup judge. And when I had to step down he was the best successor I could hope for.

[Thrumble Funk]

It's a bit more involved than that, but yes :)

At the start of the game I'll take all my dice and roll them. They get matched up based on result. I use the 6's first and go down until I need to use the 1's.

It's not terribly uncommon for me to do this a second time during a game.

If the pair of dice don't roll an average roll (or higher, I'm good with exceptional dice), I switch them out, unless one die rolled a 6, in which case I keep it in.

Yep, this happens.

I'd also chime in that one of his pairs looks like a blind man slapped them together using chunks of wood and a woodburning tool.

[llyrghmnghyll]

The problem with Dice is not usually heavily loaded dice, it's unbalanced rounded corner dice. Dice that still roll most numbers but which have more rounded corners on their lower number edges and harder corners on their higher number edges making it easier to continue rolling when faced with a lower number and harder to turn when presented with a good number.

[ArakisLSN]

I voted for a single set.

At my first big tournament I found myself playing against a judge from another venue who was sure that the dice I was using were "loaded".

He didn't call a tourney judge over but did say so very loudly even calling over some of the other players from his venue to tell them. At no point did he address any of his comments to me :( (I have since heard that he did this sort of thing a lot to try an rattle his opponents - dink!)

Anyway I beat him but I was really embarrassed that he would even suggest I was cheating so after that I always ask my opponent if I can share dice with him. That way neither of us get any kind of dice advantage.

I've had one person say no - It was a friendly game so I let it slide and grabbed some from another table. But in a competition I'd have to ask "why can I not use your dice?" and perhaps suggest we both use a neutral set.

Phyl.

[saturnflight]

First off, gamers as a group are very attached to their dice. It's a constant from one game to the next, and a form of self-expression. Ask any player who's rolling dice that didn't come from a Wizkids starter, and they'll tell you why they use those.

When you take away a person's freedom to roll the dice they want to, they'll get ornery.

I always bring a second pair (at least), and before the game starts I show my opponent what I'm rolling, explain any foreign symbols (ex. "The X-Men symbol represents the 6 on this dice"), and let them know that they have the freedom to ask, at any time, that I change to a more normal set of dice (which is to say, a set I have along with no unusual symbols on it; they will still likely be of a color scheme I chose).

I have found that this goes over well with an opponent (90% of whom also have dice they love, or who would gladly take a pair like mine). And if an opponent gets concerned about a hot streak, they can ask me to swap dice; I'm not going to take that personally.

I absolutely recommend that you not restrict custom dice. A man who cannot mod figures may find dice his one element of self-expression in the game; another may be superstitious and unfairly resent your rule if the dice don't roll in his favor; and still others may become distrustful of the other players, believing that you set the rule as a result of an incident. The more casual, the more trusting, the more friendly you can make a tournament scene feel, the better off your heroclix community will be.

[jackstar7]

I have a red one for Super Senses and B/C/F and a blue one for Shape Change and a green one for Skrull TA rolls, and then the dice I roll for attacks... I still haven't figured out a color for breakaway rolls that works.

It's a process.

[cteshwayo]

I have a red one for Super Senses and B/C/F and a blue one for Shape Change and a green one for Skrull TA rolls, and then the dice I roll for attacks... I still haven't figured out a color for breakaway rolls that works.

It's a process.

Might I humbly suggest yellow?

[MistahJustice]

WK could try but most venues will ignore the ruling. Besides, I don't think I would like being told I can't roll my Privateer Press dice...Not seeing the Double Jolly Roger ever time I crit would make me die a little inside. I'm a pirate and I believe it is my duty to show this via my dice.

[Thrumble Funk]

If I bring dice to a game, I'm using them. I will NOT swap dice out at the whim of my opponent, nor will I deal with any nitpicking involving the role of dice in an HC game.

I've got a pair of 99% precision casino dice. If that isn't good enough for my opponent, tough.

[spike1138]

I can see limiting them to a pair per table at big tournaments -- if the supply is there.

At the local venue level, though? Wouldn't work for me. I hear enough in-game yapping/stalling about rules/tactics; I don't need to hear folks whine about dice as well. Players like their dice. Some are fixated on specific pairs. Some feel the dice are an extension of their personalities. Some just like how cool certain dice look. As long as my maps aren't damaged and the dice aren't loaded or too much out of the norm, then I'm fine with whatever the group wants to use.

I bought a set of each lantern corps color a while back. (So far, only the Sinestro Corps dice have accepted me.) I tend to play one single pair per tournament but I may not play the same pair in consecutive events.

[ben138]

I've got a pair of 99% precision casino dice. If that isn't good enough for my opponent, tough.

I use those too, If they're good enough for the Mafia, they're good enough for Heroclix.:cool:

[JohnnyKitsune]

I run with 10 different pairs of dice, and just swap which set I use for each roll.

[hclixinarcadia]

Personally I use 3-4 dice per game, but I think there should atleast be a rule on sixe,shape,etc; No giant, super small sizes, or odd shapes like the rhombus shaped dice a freind of mine uses.if the rule is to play with one dice per map, then you wouldn't have to specify size, shape, etc... you can use the rhombus-sized dice and it will be the same odds for both of you... an easier solution don't you think?

If this is really a problem, them perhaps the table organizer should supply the dice? It sounds ridiculous at first, but it should eliminate this fear of people using leaded dice and what not.If this was in the official rules, it wouldn't sound so ridiculous. It would simply be followed by all.

No one has brought this up--and I probably shouldn't since we are talking heroclix players--but what about hygiene? I bring my own dice for the pure and simple reason that I know EXACTLY who has touched them--ME. I am a little OCD (okay more than a little) about hygiene, especially where my hands are concerned, so I would want to know that the "house dice" are being cleaned between matches. And I DEFINITELY would not want to share dice with my opponent. Who knows where his/her hands have been.Good point. Someone did bring that up in another thread. But, didn't you know that Heroclix is a full-contact sport? People touch other people's figures all the time, people touch other people's cards, people shake hands before and after the game.

hmm... dice...

i played a game last night and was reminded of a pair of loaded dice my friend once used... he openly admitted they were and we let him use them anyway... they betrayed him... but in the game last night i was suspicious of one pair because he ALWAYS got his rolls... or maybe i was just paranoid because i was losing all night...using one pair would eliminate that.

Two years ago at Gencon, we all had to use the single pair of dice for that map.

I definitely was not using my own dice for the Worlds tournament.How did that work out for you? Did you like it better? And, do you know why they didn't do that this year? Were there complaints?

use what dice you want, but maybe it could be considered good sportsmanship to not use dice with incomprehensible designs on the faces.
stick to pips or numerals.this reminds me of a game I played recently. It was a finals match and he had one figure left. After I connected for the KO'ing blow, my opponent used a special die to roll for super senses. The numbers on it were fancily carved and I couldn't tell at first that he rolled a "four." I'm not saying he tried to cheat but this shows that the door is open. Using one pair of dice closes that door.

When I was a judge here is what I used to do.

Ok, first a little background. As a judge you always want to be supportive of new players and you want to cultivate an environment that new players feel welcome, but at the same time you dont want outside players sharking prizes and tearing down the playing community you worked to build.Amen to that. The solution I want to try is to have an "Open" section and an "Amateur" section where Open=competitive and Amateur=fun. There would have to be some way of determining which teams are competitive and which ones are fun... a whole new can of worms in and of itself.

Thus you have to be aware that some players may come in with loaded dice and some players may come in just to have some fun. You cant tell the difference just by looking at a player. Some nice players are quiet. Some unscrupulous players are jovial.

So here is what I would do.....

At the start of the match I would always have players roll their dice in front of me for pairings. A primary roll and tie-breaking roll. This gave me an opportunity to physically observe the way they roll the dice and how the dice bounced and spun. If the dice appeared weighted and rolled two 12s in a row I could keep my eyes on that new players match without calling the player out.

One player that caught my eye was using some funny bone dice. He got on a hot streak with his dice, but not too hot. Next time he came in he used the same dice and I figured I would keep a close eye on him. He ended up rolling like 3 critical misses in a row and was a pretty good sport about it. So that pretty much settled that.

I ended up asking him to be my backup judge. And when I had to step down he was the best successor I could hope for.I see what you mean. Had you come out and confronted this guy, you may have lost the friendship of a really good person in the process. That's why I say put it in the rules to use one pair of dice. Then you wouldn't have to go to all that trouble. But, as Munchoboy essentially said, if it ain't broke don't fix it... house-rule it instead.

The problem with Dice is not usually heavily loaded dice, it's unbalanced rounded corner dice. Dice that still roll most numbers but which have more rounded corners on their lower number edges and harder corners on their higher number edges making it easier to continue rolling when faced with a lower number and harder to turn when presented with a good number.using one pair of dice for the match handles this situation... using two per table provided by the organizer doesn't.

I voted for a single set.

At my first big tournament I found myself playing against a judge from another venue who was sure that the dice I was using were "loaded".

He didn't call a tourney judge over but did say so very loudly even calling over some of the other players from his venue to tell them. At no point did he address any of his comments to me :( (I have since heard that he did this sort of thing a lot to try an rattle his opponents - dink!)
damn, what a jerk... sorry to hear that.

Anyway I beat him but I was really embarrassed that he would even suggest I was cheating so after that I always ask my opponent if I can share dice with him. That way neither of us get any kind of dice advantage.

I've had one person say no - It was a friendly game so I let it slide and grabbed some from another table. But in a competition I'd have to ask "why can I not use your dice?" and perhaps suggest we both use a neutral set.

Phyl.
For a few games, I asked every opponent if we could use one pair of dice. Most jovially agreed. I think a couple of people started to take it personally but agreed to it anyway. And a couple of people didn't agree to it not because they were cheating but because it has always been like that. Anyway, I got tired of asking all the time and now I'll probably only do it if it's a big tournament. But, for me it was better to just use one pair
First off, gamers as a group are very attached to their dice. It's a constant from one game to the next, and a form of self-expression. Ask any player who's rolling dice that didn't come from a Wizkids starter, and they'll tell you why they use those.

When you take away a person's freedom to roll the dice they want to, they'll get ornery.

I always bring a second pair (at least), and before the game starts I show my opponent what I'm rolling, explain any foreign symbols (ex. "The X-Men symbol represents the 6 on this dice"), and let them know that they have the freedom to ask, at any time, that I change to a more normal set of dice (which is to say, a set I have along with no unusual symbols on it; they will still likely be of a color scheme I chose).

I have found that this goes over well with an opponent (90% of whom also have dice they love, or who would gladly take a pair like mine). And if an opponent gets concerned about a hot streak, they can ask me to swap dice; I'm not going to take that personally.

I absolutely recommend that you not restrict custom dice. A man who cannot mod figures may find dice his one element of self-expression in the game; another may be superstitious and unfairly resent your rule if the dice don't roll in his favor; and still others may become distrustful of the other players, believing that you set the rule as a result of an incident. The more casual, the more trusting, the more friendly you can make a tournament scene feel, the better off your heroclix community will be.you can still indulge in self expression if the winner of the map roll provides the one pair to be used for the game.

I have a red one for Super Senses and B/C/F and a blue one for Shape Change and a green one for Skrull TA rolls, and then the dice I roll for attacks... I still haven't figured out a color for breakaway rolls that works.

It's a process.

Might I humbly suggest yellow?lol, yellow for cowardice? or yellow for yikes, I just pee'd in my pants at the sight of that... run away!

[Azrael0626]

use what dice you want, but maybe it could be considered good sportsmanship to not use dice with incomprehensible designs on the faces.
stick to pips or numerals.

I think that most custom dice only have a design on the 6 and pips on the rest of the die. I'm not really sure how using regular dice over customs is more sportsmanlike.

[r2fu2]

I think the dice situation should stay the same, if the player thinks there is cheating going on all they have to do is ask to use thier oponents dice.

[Norym]

I have a red one for Super Senses and B/C/F and a blue one for Shape Change and a green one for Skrull TA rolls, and then the dice I roll for attacks... I still haven't figured out a color for breakaway rolls that works.

It's a process.


I use one of the Skrull Dice from Chirocker for my Skrull and Shapechange roll.

[Azrael0626]

if the rule is to play with one dice per map, then you wouldn't have to specify size, shape, etc... you can use the rhombus-sized dice and it will be the same odds for both of you... an easier solution don't you think?

If this was in the official rules, it wouldn't sound so ridiculous. It would simply be followed by all.

Good point. Someone did bring that up in another thread. But, didn't you know that Heroclix is a full-contact sport? People touch other people's figures all the time, people touch other people's cards, people shake hands before and after the game.

using one pair would eliminate that.

How did that work out for you? Did you like it better? And, do you know why they didn't do that this year? Were there complaints?

this reminds me of a game I played recently. It was a finals match and he had one figure left. After I connected for the KO'ing blow, my opponent used a special die to roll for super senses. The numbers on it were fancily carved and I couldn't tell at first that he rolled a "four." I'm not saying he tried to cheat but this shows that the door is open. Using one pair of dice closes that door.

Amen to that. The solution I want to try is to have an "Open" section and an "Amateur" section where Open=competitive and Amateur=fun. There would have to be some way of determining which teams are competitive and which ones are fun... a whole new can of worms in and of itself.

I see what you mean. Had you come out and confronted this guy, you may have lost the friendship of a really good person in the process. That's why I say put it in the rules to use one pair of dice. Then you wouldn't have to go to all that trouble. But, as Munchoboy essentially said, if it ain't broke don't fix it... house-rule it instead.

using one pair of dice for the match handles this situation... using two per table provided by the organizer doesn't.


damn, what a jerk... sorry to hear that.


For a few games, I asked every opponent if we could use one pair of dice. Most jovially agreed. I think a couple of people started to take it personally but agreed to it anyway. And a couple of people didn't agree to it not because they were cheating but because it has always been like that. Anyway, I got tired of asking all the time and now I'll probably only do it if it's a big tournament. But, for me it was better to just use one pair
you can still indulge in self expression if the winner of the map roll provides the one pair to be used for the game.



lol, yellow for cowardice? or yellow for yikes, I just pee'd in my pants at the sight of that... run away!

You obviously seem very adamant about using only one pair of dice per match, so just do that. If you are running the show, then it is run by your rules. With my own group of players I don't see a need for it to deter any possible cheating and if that were to come up, I would handle it myself instead of changing the dice rules for everyone. If you do it from the start, I wouldn't think that it would be a big deal, but if you change things up after running events for awhile just to deter cheating people may take offense. Also, take into consideration that people paid for the custom dice to specifically use in Heroclix tournaments. I dropped a few bucks on some custom dice in the past and just recently. I wouldn't be pissed, but I wouldn't be super happy if I couldn't use them.

[elfholme]

To me, dice are more like the game ball. You don't switch balls when the other team goes on offense do you?

I'm not sure what "game ball" you're talking about, but if it's professional football, yeah, you kinda do. According to the NFL rulebook:

"Ball
The home club shall have 36 balls for outdoor games and 24 for indoor games available for testing with a pressure gauge by the referee two hours prior to the starting time of the game to meet with League requirements. Twelve (12) new footballs, sealed in a special box and shipped by the manufacturer, will be opened in the officials’ locker room two hours prior to the starting time of the game. These balls are to be specially marked with the letter "k" and used exclusively for the kicking game. "

NFL Rulebook (http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/ball)

The refs change the game ball all the time during a game. In fact players often hand the current ball to a fan, or keep it for himself after scoring. And there are a completely different set of balls used for kicking.

I prefer to use my own dice. All the dice I use are either from WK starters or custom dice I bought here, manufactured by Chessex. So it bugs me a little when organizers want me to change dice. HOWEVER, I could live with the organizer supplying a pair of dice to each player for each game (to be left at the map at the end of each game). I just want my OWN set of dice, even if they're only mine for the duration of that round. I'm superstitious; it makes no sense; I know this, but my superstitions are part of the FUN of the GAME for me.

So if you are that worried about the dice, I say supply them all yourself, one pair for each side of each map. If you do this, make sure they are all the same kind of dice, (either nondescript or customized in some way). and I'll tell you a secret - the BEST way to get players to agree to something like this is to order a bunch of cool custom dice from Chessex, give a pair to each player at the start of the tournament, and let them keep them at the end. Roll the price of the dice into the registration fees for the event. Make sure you have extra pairs for sale (for a small profit) in case players lose theirs (or just got "unlucky dice" and want a new pair). That changes an onerous rule into a "participation prize".


Anyway I beat him but I was really embarrassed that he would even suggest I was cheating so after that I always ask my opponent if I can share dice with him. That way neither of us get any kind of dice advantage.

I've had one person say no - It was a friendly game so I let it slide and grabbed some from another table. But in a competition I'd have to ask "why can I not use your dice?" and perhaps suggest we both use a neutral set.


I would say no. I don't want to use a single set of dice. If the organizer wants to supply all the dice for the event, I'm cool with that. I'm not really interested in having you use the same pair of dice that I'm using. I would be open to pulling out two pairs of my dice and letting you choose which pair to use, but sharing a pair, nah. It's simple superstition, and I think you'll find gaming is rife with it. In fact I'm surprised only one person has turned you down.


First off, gamers as a group are very attached to their dice. It's a constant from one game to the next, and a form of self-expression. Ask any player who's rolling dice that didn't come from a Wizkids starter, and they'll tell you why they use those.

When you take away a person's freedom to roll the dice they want to, they'll get ornery.

I always bring a second pair (at least), and before the game starts I show my opponent what I'm rolling, explain any foreign symbols (ex. "The X-Men symbol represents the 6 on this dice"), and let them know that they have the freedom to ask, at any time, that I change to a more normal set of dice (which is to say, a set I have along with no unusual symbols on it; they will still likely be of a color scheme I chose).

I have found that this goes over well with an opponent (90% of whom also have dice they love, or who would gladly take a pair like mine). And if an opponent gets concerned about a hot streak, they can ask me to swap dice; I'm not going to take that personally.

I absolutely recommend that you not restrict custom dice. A man who cannot mod figures may find dice his one element of self-expression in the game; another may be superstitious and unfairly resent your rule if the dice don't roll in his favor; and still others may become distrustful of the other players, believing that you set the rule as a result of an incident. The more casual, the more trusting, the more friendly you can make a tournament scene feel, the better off your heroclix community will be.

Amen.

When the custom dice runs were going on here, I bought a few pairs for myself, and a pair for each of the regulars at my venue (I tried to base them on their favorite teams...it's a theme play venue). They use them all the time. One of the guys has a pair of Skrull dice that are legendary in their luck...but they're Chessex dice <shrug>. I love that he uses them, even when he's beating me because he goes on a hot streak of rolling nothing lower than 9s all game. And when he's rolling for the Skrull TA and the little Skrull face comes up and saves his figure's bacon...that's just poetic. :)

[thanosstar]

ive used the same two dice since infinity challenge.

[hclixinarcadia]

Also, take into consideration that people paid for the custom dice to specifically use in Heroclix tournaments. I dropped a few bucks on some custom dice in the past and just recently. I wouldn't be pissed, but I wouldn't be super happy if I couldn't use them.
That is why it will simply be a suggestion at my event.

Just because I see it one way doesn't mean I have to discount others' point of view.

In a big tournament, with big prizes though, it may be a different story. Thanks for your opinion. It helps a lot.

[elfholme]

You obviously seem very adamant about using only one pair of dice per match, so just do that. If you are running the show, then it is run by your rules. With my own group of players I don't see a need for it to deter any possible cheating and if that were to come up, I would handle it myself instead of changing the dice rules for everyone. If you do it from the start, I wouldn't think that it would be a big deal, but if you change things up after running events for awhile just to deter cheating people may take offense. Also, take into consideration that people paid for the custom dice to specifically use in Heroclix tournaments. I dropped a few bucks on some custom dice in the past and just recently. I wouldn't be pissed, but I wouldn't be super happy if I couldn't use them.

Yep. I dropped ~$40 on dice (I LOVE custom dice) when they were being offered here, not counting those I bought for other people. I did that solely for Heroclix dice, and I did it because the rules allow it. If my judge suddenly changed the rules after that...I'd probably just avoid that venue, and play at home. It would be irritating.

[hclixinarcadia]

The refs change the game ball all the time during a game. In fact players often hand the current ball to a fan, or keep it for himself after scoring. And there are a completely different set of balls used for kicking.
What I meant was that when the other team goes on offense, they don't come out with their own ball. They use the same ball that the other team used. Of course there are other circumstances such as you mentioned where the ball is given out to the fan or changed out by the ref. But, for the most part it is the same ball for both sides.

A different ball for the kick-off? I didn't know that.

[bonkers1978]

When I run big events at WonderCon, the final day I will provide 2 pairs of dice per map. Both players must use the dice that are provided by me. Other then that all my other events you may use whatever dice you want.

[elfholme]

That is why it will simply be a suggestion at my event.

Just because I see it one way doesn't mean I have to discount others' point of view.

In a big tournament, with big prizes though, it may be a different story. Thanks for your opinion. It helps a lot.

Personally, I wouldn't even want my judge to "suggest" something like this. If the judge does so, then many players may see it as "unsporting" if a player opts NOT to follow this "suggestion". This can result in some subconscious "bad blood" between players before the game even starts, impacting what should be a friendly game. I would probably resent a suggestion like this from our judge. If you are that uptight about the dice, I again suggest just supplying them to everyone, each player his own pair.

If it's a big competition, supplying the dice (a pair for each player, paid for through the tournament fees) seems like the most fair and reasonable way to go. I'm not a "big competition" type of Heroclix player though, so that probably wouldn't impact me too much either way. :)

[hclixinarcadia]

and I'll tell you a secret - the BEST way to get players to agree to something like this is to order a bunch of cool custom dice from Chessex, give a pair to each player at the start of the tournament, and let them keep them at the end. Roll the price of the dice into the registration fees for the event. Make sure you have extra pairs for sale (for a small profit) in case players lose theirs (or just got "unlucky dice" and want a new pair). That changes an onerous rule into a "participation prize".
nice! a pair of dice for everyone... I like it.

[hclixinarcadia]

Personally, I wouldn't even want my judge to "suggest" something like this. If the judge does so, then many players may see it as "unsporting" if a player opts NOT to follow this "suggestion". This can result in some subconscious "bad blood" between players before the game even starts, impacting what should be a friendly game. I would probably resent a suggestion like this from our judge.I completely see what you mean here. Thanks very much.

[hclixinarcadia]

When I run big events at WonderCon, the final day I will provide 2 pairs of dice per map. Both players must use the dice that are provided by me. Other then that all my other events you may use whatever dice you want.

Looks like this is where it's heading for me. But, why two and not only one pair?

[Norym]

A different ball for the kick-off? I didn't know that.

Mist FG Kickers hate it. All kicks are done with a different ball from the regular game balls. Kickers like the balls warm and a tad bit below the recommended PSI. A new ball is a %*#@$ to kick, especially outdoors in the cold.

[SpartanRS3416]

Having been a long-time tabletop gamer, I'm very attached to my own dice.

When I played SFB I had a pair of custom dice for whatever race I was playing, w/ WH40K I had dice for each army I owned.

For Heroclix I have a different color for various applications as has been previously mentioned.

Oh and for breakaways I use clear dice w/ blue pips, they work pretty well for me.

But anyway, I'd be rather irritated if told I had to use "YOUR" dice & would feel like there was already an expectation there that I'd cheat, not to mention that having come from GW play where custom figures is PREFERRED & stock are considered kinda lazy at a tourney, I also find the rule of the judge & opponent can tell me I can't use a fig I put ALOT of time & work into which I likely got the same way as the guy across from me did to begin w/ before I modded it.

So, that being said, if I can have my custom Carnage or Toxin banned due to a custom sculpt or my back in black spidey banned due to using the Sinister fig in place of the "naughty sent to the corner" spidey, then I'd like to at least be able to use my own dice.

[elfholme]

What I meant was that when the other team goes on offense, they don't come out with their own ball. They use the same ball that the other team used. Of course there are other circumstances such as you mentioned where the ball is given out to the fan or changed out by the ref. But, for the most part it is the same ball for both sides.

A different ball for the kick-off? I didn't know that.

The balls are changed ALL THE TIME, not just on kick-offs or when a player hands one away. That's why there are so many required. A team may well use a different ball than their opponents used.

It's a bit different in sports because of the nature of the game - it would negatively impact the game to change balls every time the ball changed hands (how would you handle a pick or fumble recovery? ;)). In dice games, there's no negative impact to each player using their own dice (unless one player cheats)...in this way, dice are more like a player's shoes, or the bat in baseball...they are equipment, regulated for fairness, that each team supplies themselves.

There are few things that teams "share" during a typical sports game - the refs, the crowd, the field, and the ball/puck (and this last item isn't really a single item at all, unless you are playing at the local rec center).

The rules might be different for major competitions. There may be more incentive to cheat, so you may need to regulate more. This is why casinos supply the dice used in craps (though, again, you're not going to be using the same pair of dice all game if you are at a table for any length of time...they change them constantly). There is a lot of MONEY to be made in craps, and if you win it, the casino has to supply it. So they are going to be especially careful.

If you have to institute the same level of rules as a casino uses at your venue, you might have a problem of your players taking things too seriously. If you DO have a problem like this, supply the dice I guess. But I would personally hope that if the judge suspected a player of cheating, it would be addressed directly, and if proven the cheater would be bounced from the venue. I don't want to play against a cheater, no matter who is supplying the dice! And if the issue is just that you want to "remove the dice" as a variable in games to somehow make them more "pure strategically", I think it would be a mistake to hamper the fun of some of the more superstitious players because you have an opinion that using a single set of dice removes one variable from the equation.

edited last paragraph because you already responded about the "suggestion" concept...

[PsychoHippie]

I really don't understand all the opposition to all players using the same dice. That rule would kill loaded dice dead.

[Munchoboy]

I really don't understand all the opposition to all players using the same dice. That rule would kill loaded dice dead.

I totally get that, but to me it seems like a "We had to burn the village to save it" sort of solution.

Are loaded dice so rampant an issue that WK must issue this sort of ruling? If it remains a local, and somewhat isolated, issue, let Venues deal with it on a case by case basis I say.

This is exactly the sort of thing easily covered by House Rules.

[Clclix]

To my knowledge, I have never encountered loaded dice. I have seen people roll well, then roll very bad with the same dice. I have quite a few friends who play that switch dice when they feel they are cold, no biggy here. To each his own.

I will say that in a massive event like Worlds, that Wizkids should provide dice and that all players should only use those dice to roll. Just my opinion.

[Cliffjumper]

No. Players are free to choose their dice just like athletes can choose their own shoes. If a die is suspect, get a judge. Personally I see far more people cheating their rolls than cheating their dice. I've seen a lot of people set the dice in their hands and drop them more than roll them, getting s favorable result.

I completely agree with Hesster. Ive seen loaded dice rolling, never loaded dice. Plus there is that one rule everyone forgets...at least that I housed ruled during my tenure judging for 4 years. If you think the dice are funny, not haha but funny wierd, ask your opponent to use them for the rest of the game. If theyre are good for them then they are good for you.

If they are uncomfortable, let teh judge assign you BOTH the same dice to share during the match. Its all I ever did and no problems.

Now how people roll for attacks and Shape Change, Supersenses...yeah thats flat out cheating because you are purposely trying to manipulate the roll.

[framuschuck]

I only like this rule when I am playing people with big dice. Honestly, I don't get why your dice need to weigh four times the weight of a normal pair - just play with a regular pair of normal sized dice - I don't about color or design or of you rule double 6's your dice say " Suck It" - keep the size normal.

[Munchoboy]

Plus there is that one rule everyone forgets...at least that I housed ruled during my tenure judging for 4 years. If you think the dice are funny, not haha but funny wierd, ask your opponent to use them for the rest of the game. If theyre are good for them then they are good for you.

It is important that to remember that this is a House Rule, and not a WK rule. An opponent is well within their rights to refuse allowing you use of their dice under WK guidelines.

I just wanted to say that before Harpua came in here and did so! :laugh:

[cteshwayo]

I totally get that, but to me it seems like a "We had to burn the village to save it" sort of solution.

Are loaded dice so rampant an issue that WK must issue this sort of ruling? If it remains a local, and somewhat isolated, issue, let Venues deal with it on a case by case basis I say.

This is exactly the sort of thing easily covered by House Rules.

Hear, Hear!

In high-stakes tournaments, then the house can issue whatever rules it likes to prevent cheating. But there is no need for a blanket ruling.

[cattmoe]

I know for our local group it's not really been an issue.

The FF dice are definitely fishy, but other than those I don't think I've ever seen any that were even questionable.

[Bone Collector]

I work in a casino and use actual casino dice. They are great and have never been a concern for anyone we play with.

One tip: casino dice are perfectly square on all sides. They are clear and do not continue to roll through figures on the map or off the board. They also roll 1's less frequently (1-3% less often) as they are perfectly formed. A true mathematical fact.

Love em and wouldn't trade them for anything. (except on the days when they roll 1's more often than I'd like:))

[da_turtledude]

Only speaking for myself but the dice I have got from the different sets in the past LOSH, BN, IO, have always come to fail me so instead I use a set of black dice I got off of ebay and I use alot of small dice as markers for the figures I move.

[Jarimy123]

Gencon and high level tourneys - yes players should be using the dice provided by the tourney organizers.

Local tourneys - use whatever you want. If you use loaded dice for a Troia LE, well then you really are losing.

[Thrumble Funk]

This is exactly the sort of thing easily covered by House Rules.

Yep. Namely if you're caught using loaded dice, you're banned. Probably after being verbally ripped apart en masse for being a pathetic individual.

Been playing clix pretty regularly since 2002, and have NEVER seen a pair of loaded dice used, nor have I ever been given grounds to be suspicious.

As for this:

I really don't understand all the opposition to all players using the same dice.

I'd be opposed because it would introduce a new imposition on my play based on asinine superstition and/or the possibility that my dice may be somewhat imperfect or loaded.

[Suttkus]

Personally, I use three dice, one of another color than the main. I started doing it just because I was using my fancy MechWarrior House Kurita dice (love that logo) for games, but I've since decided it's just a good idea to have a third die available so that you can role that 1d6 for oddball game effects without having to mess up an "active" attack roll, especially for BCF. If the venue is supplying "one pair to the table", I would very much prefer them to supply three dice instead.

***

No. Players are free to choose their dice just like athletes can choose their own shoes. If a die is suspect, get a judge.

And the judge does what? Spends an hour rolling the dice to do a proper chi-square test? Determining if a die is fair isn't really easy. Properly loaded dice don't come up 6 every single time they're rolled, just more often than normal. It shouldn't be at all obvious or detectable.

The only thing I would ever allow is "player's privilege"; if you suspect your opponent is using loaded dice, you can use his. If it's good enough for James Bond, it's good enough for me.

***

In a rational, reasonable world I would say "yes".

Then say yes. The world is rational and reasonable, it's just the humans in it failing to live up to its standards. : - )

Over the years running events for one company or another, I've found it best to pick and choose my "battles" wisely. If a problem doesn't exist (i.e. with dice), why create the illusion of one?

This! I see my different players like their weird dice, or like swapping out dice when they "grow cold" or whatever other superstition they have. There's no need to go looking for trouble. If it isn't causing a problem in your venue, don't make a problem out of it! It's a game. First and foremost, your players should be having fun.

Worlds is supposed to represent the pinnacle of HeroClix play. I think it is appropriate, at that level of play, for WK to offer to provide maps and dice for players to use should they decide to.

Agreed, again. Major tournaments should be played to more exacting standards.

***

No one has brought this up--and I probably shouldn't since we are talking heroclix players--but what about hygiene? I bring my own dice for the pure and simple reason that I know EXACTLY who has touched them--ME. I am a little OCD (okay more than a little) about hygiene, especially where my hands are concerned, so I would want to know that the "house dice" are being cleaned between matches. And I DEFINITELY would not want to share dice with my opponent. Who knows where his/her hands have been.

Speaking as someone who recognizes that touching the water faucet handles after you've washed your hands completely defeats the purpose of washing your hands to begin with but who is called "germ-phobic" because other people do not understand this simple rationality... I completely respect this. : - )

I think we could work around this, though. For one, if the other player believes your dice are loaded and that you're using your OCD as an excuse to avoid this being revealed, he can have you roll your dice for his rolls. Nobody touches your dice but you, but he still benefits from your "loaded" dice.

***

lol, yellow for cowardice? or yellow for yikes, I just pee'd in my pants at the sight of that... run away!

Aren't they the same thing? : - )

***

Personally, I wouldn't even want my judge to "suggest" something like this. If the judge does so, then many players may see it as "unsporting" if a player opts NOT to follow this "suggestion". This can result in some subconscious "bad blood" between players before the game even starts, impacting what should be a friendly game.

That's why I put issues I want player feedback on onto little forms and have everyone respond on the form.

***

To my knowledge, I have never encountered loaded dice.

To your knowledge, sure, but how can you know? Like I said before, properly loaded dice aren't obviously unlike any other dice. They don't roll sixes each and every time, just slightly more often than normal.

[T Rez]

I work in a casino and use actual casino dice. They are great and have never been a concern for anyone we play with.

One tip: casino dice are perfectly square on all sides. They are clear and do not continue to roll through figures on the map or off the board. They also roll 1's less frequently (1-3% less often) as they are perfectly formed. A true mathematical fact.

Love em and wouldn't trade them for anything. (except on the days when they roll 1's more often than I'd like:))

I used to love using casino dice until I realized that the pointy edges were destroying my maps. They leave dents all over maps! I've been thinking about getting a plexiglass or acrylic sheet to place over the maps so I can go back to using casino dice.

Back on topic: We used to use different dice in our home games, but there is always someone who thinks a certain pair is better than another (this started when I stopped allowing casino dice to be played on my maps). It's not that anyone thinks there is cheating going on. But it is a fact that these rounded dice are not perfectly balanced and can tend to fall on certain numbers more frequently. We decided it was best for everyone to use the same pair to eliminate the concern.

Once I get that acrylic/plexiglass sheet we will go back to each player using their own casino dice.

[hclixinarcadia]

I'd be opposed because it would introduce a new imposition on my play based on asinine superstition and/or the possibility that my dice may be somewhat imperfect or loaded.
It's not really so much about you personally but more for that one rotten apple that will ruin it for everyone else... therefore a blanket rule.

It seems like almost everyone agrees that in a big tournament, dice should be provided and people should do away with their superstition. Why can't that standard trickle down to casual play and make it a consistent ruling all the way?

Actually, I already know the answer... people spend a lot of money and get attached to their dice and it's part of the fun/identity to have custom dice. And, I do get that.

[Jarimy123]

I believe that the only person who cares about this topic is the OP. We are all just so bored now that we have 75th in our hands, there's nothing else to do at work until GSX comes out. I mean at home while not on the clock, that's where I am.

It's plain and simple - everyone uses what dice they want. It's been a long standing rule that you can use your opponent's dice if you want and they have to let you. So if you thin their's are loaded, use them.

At major level tourneys you need to have more control. High level tourneys = high $ prizes = cheaters coming out to play. It is what it is. They have a good system setup where Wizkids provides the dice.

We have had tourneys in our area where the judge provides the dice. The tourneys were for $100+ prizes. So yea made sense to us. To require a flat out rule from Wizkids just seems like an odd request.

[zyxba]

I'm more worried that people think there are enough using loaded dice that this is an issue. It's a game with little plastic superheroes where one doesn't even traditionally play for money, and people feel the need to cheat to such a degree? That's just kind of silly that people would do so, in my opinion.

[hclixinarcadia]

I believe that the only person who cares about this topic is the OP. We are all just so bored now that we have 75th in our hands, there's nothing else to do at work until GSX comes out. I mean at home while not on the clock, that's where I am.lol

It's been a long standing rule that you can use your opponent's dice if you want and they have to let you. So if you thin their's are loaded, use them.this is an unwritten rule? or is it in an official document somewhere? See, asking to use someone else's dice is like accusing them of cheating isn't it?

[Kamakura]

Wizkids dice seem poorly weighted, pre and post NECA.
Aside from that, gamers have "lucky dice". I use Chessex, a respected brand for gaming, but sometimes you just get a feeling about certain ones that day. The local environment is more casual now than it was in the past, so it should stay as is. Judges would house rule it that way even if there was a rule

[Munchoboy]

It's been a long standing rule that you can use your opponent's dice if you want and they have to let you. So if you thin their's are loaded, use them.
this is an unwritten rule? or is it in an official document somewhere? See, asking to use someone else's dice is like accusing them of cheating isn't it?

It's not a WK rule at all actually:

It is important that to remember that this is a House Rule, and not a WK rule. An opponent is well within their rights to refuse allowing you use of their dice under WK guidelines.

I just wanted to say that before Harpua came in here and did so! :laugh:

[Jarimy123]

From what I remember it was an actual Heroclix rule. Maybe it's just been house-ruled for as long as I have played, but I thought it was an actual rule that you can ask to use someone's dice.

I guess it's like accussing them, but it depends what your venue is like. I've had a guy ask to use mine, and we started laughing about it. But we've known each other for awhile, and I always get lucky rolls against him, so there is history.

I can't confirm that it is a definite rule in the actual clix rulebook, but I think it could be.

Edit: Ok my main man Muncho confirmed it's not an actual rule. In our area it's always been a house rule then I guess. But nobody does it, like ever. But we have a laid back area. We are all competitive, but we've known each other so long that we know nobody is using loaded dice.

Or wait, have we just not been suspicious enough? Tinfoil hat time!

[Munchoboy]

I can't confirm that it is a definite rule in the actual clix rulebook, but I think it could be.

Actually, it isn't. ;)

[Jarimy123]

Actually, it isn't. ;)

I just fixed my post so nah nah!

Actually I know you can't read my thoughts anymore so of course you didn't know. I've got my tinfoil hat firmly in place, the paranoia is back, and I'm not taking it off until I am given x-ray glasses to properly tell if my opponent's dice have a remote controlled insect that they can move when the die is being rolled to give them a 6!!!!

Edit: The above is an online post/warning/example to all the kids out there - don't do meth!

[Kamakura]

I would care if there were some crazy rule where people all had to use the same dice. Since they would probably be starter dice I'd be very annoyed, I don't use those, never have, never will

I believe that the only person who cares about this topic is the OP. We are all just so bored now that we have 75th in our hands, there's nothing else to do at work until GSX comes out. I mean at home while not on the clock, that's where I am.

It's plain and simple - everyone uses what dice they want. It's been a long standing rule that you can use your opponent's dice if you want and they have to let you. So if you thin their's are loaded, use them.

At major level tourneys you need to have more control. High level tourneys = high $ prizes = cheaters coming out to play. It is what it is. They have a good system setup where Wizkids provides the dice.

We have had tourneys in our area where the judge provides the dice. The tourneys were for $100+ prizes. So yea made sense to us. To require a flat out rule from Wizkids just seems like an odd request.

[hclixinarcadia]

From what I remember it was an actual Heroclix rule. Maybe it's just been house-ruled for as long as I have played, but I thought it was an actual rule that you can ask to use someone's dice.

I guess it's like accussing them, but it depends what your venue is like. I've had a guy ask to use mine, and we started laughing about it. But we've known each other for awhile, and I always get lucky rolls against him, so there is history.

I can't confirm that it is a definite rule in the actual clix rulebook, but I think it could be.

Edit: Ok my main man Muncho confirmed it's not an actual rule. In our area it's always been a house rule then I guess. But nobody does it, like ever. But we have a laid back area. We are all competitive, but we've known each other so long that we know nobody is using loaded dice.

Or wait, have we just not been suspicious enough? Tinfoil hat time!
At one venue I played, I got high rolls the first few times. I was just using standard dice but my opponent started using them as well. I didn't take offense.

At another event, my opponent used one of those custom dice with the special 6 design and rolled 12's not once but several times. I don't think he was cheating but later on I read that those tend to roll high because they have more plastic taken off. I don't think that's true because the sixes on regular dice have more plastic taken off don't they?

Anyway, that's when I started thinking that maybe only one pair of dice per map should be used and that would solve all dice issues without anyone getting confrontational or offended since it would apply to everyone.

Seemed like a reasonable solution at the time until now when I read about how people take pride in their dice and relate it to identity and what not. I'd like to dismiss all that as nonsense (because my way is the right way...bwahahaha) but it is true that you will lose participants if you start house ruling "one pair of dice per map." So, I'm really glad I asked before I implemented such a lame-brained idea...lol.

[Jarimy123]

I'd totally recommend have the judge provide the dice for events that are high stakes. We have had events in the past, at our local venues, that were for Galactus, chase figures, bricks, etc. and our judge let everyone know that he would be providing "starter dice" for each map that people would be using.

But ya I wouldn't recommend that when running a tourney for the Bucket of Water LE.

[hclixinarcadia]

I'd totally recommend have the judge provide the dice for events that are high stakes. We have had events in the past, at our local venues, that were for Galactus, chase figures, bricks, etc. and our judge let everyone know that he would be providing "starter dice" for each map that people would be using.

But ya I wouldn't recommend that when running a tourney for the Bucket of Water LE.
I say yes since no one would come for a Bucket of Water anyway.

Ok so for an event with a big prize, provide one pair or two pairs? And, why one over the other option?

[ccs]

I appreciate the input.

Didn't WK try to set the standard by saying that certain dice can't be used? I think it's the ones that have custom designs on them.

Wouldn't it be easier for WK to just say "winner of map roll provides the dice for the game"

Didn't WK house rule it to be "organizer provides two pairs on the table" at 2010 Gencon? Why not make that "the" rule?

I believe that two years ago, it was "one pair for table" wasn't it? Do you know why that was ditched for 2010?

Well, WK can run their tournies & events however they choose.

Beyond that (such as at your local venue) I don't feel they get a say.
So if we're all happy to be using mis-matched dice, ones with custom lanten logos, etc? Then so be it.
And if some place feels the need to make more specific rules about dice? Then that's the bussiness of those involved at that local & no more.

[elfholme]

It seems like almost everyone agrees that in a big tournament, dice should be provided and people should do away with their superstition. Why can't that standard trickle down to casual play and make it a consistent ruling all the way?

Actually, I already know the answer... people spend a lot of money and get attached to their dice and it's part of the fun/identity to have custom dice. And, I do get that.

Well really, even ignoring the money/identity, why WOULD it trickle down? The big tournament environment is (hopefully) very different than the local environment. When people play for big prizes, in a big venue, they start to act differently. This is why I generally avoid big tournaments (I've hopped on a plane to travel to big conventions for Heroclix, but I tend to play in the Battle Royales and such instead of the qualifiers...or events with a couple dozen players at most). Why would I as a more casual player want elements from the uber-competitive environment encouraged at the local, more fun level? No thanks. Stop trying to trickle stuff down on me!

[elfholme]

I say yes since no one would come for a Bucket of Water anyway.


I would. :)

Well, I'd come to play (regardless of the prize), and I want the Bucket of Water object because I'm a Superfriends fan...so yeah, I'd love it! :)

The only time I miss Heroclix night is when a) my brother can't make it, or b) my wife has a commitment and I'm watching our daughter (she's 5, so I'm not dragging her out to the venue to sit and watch me play). I like prizes fine, but I really just like to play the game.

[cteshwayo]

At our local game store, there is a Magic player, who, at most of the store's small tourneys, is very strict about protocol- in essence, he acts like he's playing at a high-stakes tournament. I appreciate his professionalism, but it is not fun to play against him, especially when you're used to a more casual environment. Having small mistakes result in judge calls makes for a very unfriendly atmosphere.

Having local game stores adhere to tournament-level codes of conduct is a sure way to alienate your more casual players, or newer players who are unfamiliar with tournament etiquette.

In conclusion, it is fine to have strict standards for high-stakes or professional-level tournaments- E.G. uniform dice, strict ways of declaring actions, etc.- but those standards will do nothing for local shops except drive people away.

[Surfer13]

To me, dice are more like the game ball. You don't switch balls when the other team goes on offense do you?

But I see your point about dice being a part of someone's identity just like the athlete with his pair of shoes.

And, you are right. If someone's a cheater they are going to cheat no matter what... dropping the dice, under-clicking, etc. But, at least you take one way to cheat out of the equation without having some kind of embarrassing confrontation.

They switch game balls all the time.

In baseball, a pitcher can throw the ball to the umpire and request a change if they do not like the feel of the ball.

In football, they are constantly switching out balls, especially in cold weather. They keep a bunch of balls in a warmer and when the game ball gets too cold they go and get another, in addition to all of the other changes.


doesn't one dice per table eliminate all kinds of dice abuse issues? Not all but a lot.


Wouldn't it be less expensive to have the competitors provide their own counters and dice? Maps... I can see how not all players can have it.


lol, the reason I'm asking all these questions is:
1. I'm running my first tournament as judge this Thursday and I'm thinking of house-ruling it to "one dice per table" but I'm not sure how others would take it.
2. There may be a big Southern Cal Clix Day coming soon and I want to come up with the proper dice policy if I end up running one of the qualifiers for it.

Thanks. I really appreciate everyone's input.

Then make the call.

If that's how you want to run it, then do it. No problem.

But understand that some people will not want other people using their dice.
If you are going to say that every map has to use the same pair of dice (and only a single pair), then you should also provide house dice that the players have to use.

Why not ask the players? I know that when I was judging my players liked to use their own dice. The ones that didn't mind using house dice didn't mind not using them, either.

And then there were the complaints about dice habits. People liked to blow on their dice, or what do you do about a player that licks their fingers and picks up the dice? Or players that do not practice good bathroom hygeine and come back and grab those common dice?

[Ultim8 Avenger]

I use between one and seven pairs of dice per game.

that is ridiculous.

in tournaments that should be frowned upon. there are so many issues you can't even begin to imagine using several dice in one game.

[Hesster56]

that is ridiculous.

in tournaments that should be frowned upon. there are so many issues you can't even begin to imagine using several dice in one game.

Such as? The only die or dice I'm rolling are the ones that are in my hand. After they leave my hand and create a random number, they are the only ones that are checked for that number. You could play a tourney with a different die for every single roll, and as long as you don't turtle when swapping, you'd be fine.

[SWTony]

To me, dice are more like the game ball. You don't switch balls when the other team goes on offense do you?

Actually, in pro football, they do. They made a point in the Bears/Pats game a few weeks ago to point out that Brady prefers his balls to be scuffed up and Cutler perfers his slick right out of the box. They showed both balls side by side and they each had the appropriate QB's name on them. Kickers also get different balls than QBs.

[Rottingghost]

i normally have my set dice for every game. this past dc75 tourney though i didnt bring dice so i borrowed the store owners. i got 3 crit miss in the 1st game w those dice. so he lent me another pair igot 2 crit misses in the next round and for the last round he lent me another pair, i missed all my attks. needless to say i didnt place 1st :knockedou

[phantomrider]

i only use one pair, but thats becouse i phase out the dice i use when i find a pair that rolls better, i dont mind my opponent changeing dice but it does seem alittle funny though, but there isnt any thing i can do about it, but i know player that take out all of their dice and roll the pre-game and choose the ones that roll better consitantly and use those dice for the remainder of the event.

[brevard321]

All I know is that if Wizkids/NECA could come up with an agreement with Marvel and DC to do custom dice, they'd sell like gangbusters!

Not only to Heroclix players, but other comic book fans. I know I'd love a Batman symbol pair of dice! :)

And if Wizkids made more dice, then they could make a stronger rule about which dice could be used at their tournaments.

[charlesdward]

Wizkids dice seem poorly weighted, pre and post NECA.
Aside from that, gamers have "lucky dice". I use Chessex, a respected brand for gaming, but sometimes you just get a feeling about certain ones that day. The local environment is more casual now than it was in the past, so it should stay as is. Judges would house rule it that way even if there was a rule
My Chessex dice have been eyed with a tad bit of suspicion from certain players due to the designs on the sixes being more distinctive... "Oh, look it's another six."
This calmed down when I started pointing out every single six that was rolled by my opponent and they realized that their sixes were also pretty frequent. :grin:

[SWTony]

I tend to be very logical in most of my life, but my dice? I'm about as superstitious as one can get. I have my Bannson's Raiders dice that won me the 2007 MW Solaris 7 World Championships and no one, I mean NO ONE is allowed to touch them but me. Let me tell you a story...

I had bought the BR dice when they were initially offered by WizKids around 2004. That was my faction, I had to have them. They were a great set of dice. It got to the point where my regular group would actually bar me from using them. It's not that they always rolled high- they had their fair share of crit misses, its just that they rolled high at just the moment I needed them to. If there was one roll that would win or lose me the game, they'd make it, even if they had missed every other roll along the way. A few years later, Gale Force 9 put out new sets and included all of the clans introduced in Age Of Destruction, so I bought the new dice for BR and all of my other factions. All of a sudden, my old reliable BR dice were not so reliable. It was likle they were jealous of all my shiny new dice and were going to teach me a lesson. So after 2 years of faithful service, they were retired. Fast forward to the 2007 World Championships. Someone cam through the game hall offering a set of the original WK BR dice, still sealed. I couldn't resist. The performed just as my original had for so long. They carried me right into the World Championship. They remained in their little plastic tube for 2 years, separated from the rest of my dice, lest they become corrupted too. I finally decided to chuck them in with the rest last year and they've done ok for me, as I tend to mix them up with original set while playing.

I'd be kinda cheesed off if you told me in a local environment that I could not use my world championship dice and even moreso if you told me I had to let someone else use them. I'll lend you figures or feats or maps or any other pair of dice that you want, but I will never lend out my championship dice.

[eagletsi]

I have played many other games and tournaments. They all use 1 set of dice which both players must use. It just makes sense.

it stops fixed dice and ensures some stability in a very random game.

[Ikoma Hivis]

I don't mind people using whatever dice they want as long as I can use them if I want to. Sometimes I want to use them because they look cool or because they won't roll below a 9 but as long as I can use them, I don't care what dice are used.

What really annoys me is when people go and "practice roll." That just wastes game time and won't change what is rolled unless you don't have random dice.

[I Am The Game]

I'm a big fan of same dice. It levels the playing field, and avoids any crying over good or bad streaks.

The best argument for using one pair of dice came from a CanGames event. When your turn was over, you hand the dice over to your opponent. Anything you forgot to do once the dice are gone is too bad.

When I was running events, some people would borrow things, others would bring their own. What would inevitably happen is that my stuff would go missing. Between that and a shady player who knew which dice rolled better, I started supplying everything. Maps, dice, objects, Smoke, Barrier, debris... all mine. Bring your tokens and figs, leave everything else behind. If you have a $40 pair of custom dice, by all means, let those be the table's dice.

[charlesdward]

For anyone who may be curious about certain dice, you can always test them by averaging the rolls. Found a neat link here (D&D players may find this especially interesting):
http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2009/02/testing-balanced-die.html

[omnimon177]

I'm getting tired of seeing dice with one side (six or one) having a symbol on it. What the hell are two Green Lanterns supposed to mean? I would be fine with these dice but it seems like every time my opponent uses a set of these dice, they neglect to tell me whether the symbol is a one or a six. Please be courteous and announce that your dice have a symbol and what it represents when you play these silly dice.

Also, didn't the dice that WK included in the F4 starter have bubbles making some dice roll really well due to their weight distribution? How could WK ensure quality dice for a reasonable cost?

[jedeye]

Loaded dice should show themselves pretty quickly over the course of a game, much less, a tournament. If that were to happen, I would just say, "hey, those dice are hot, do you mind if I use your dice too?" If they don't allow it, I would immediately grab the dice and call the judge over for an impromptu inspection.
In order to truly take 'clix to a national tournament level, one pair of dice per table, venue provided, and also, "a neutral clicker," someone not in the game, and not known to either player, to click the figs, for the tables in, say, the final 8 or 16 rounds, would go a long way to legitimize this game to the level of a card game, for instance.

[Ultron-16]

doesn't one dice per table eliminate all kinds of dice abuse issues? Not all but a lot.


Wouldn't it be less expensive to have the competitors provide their own counters and dice? Maps... I can see how not all players can have it.


lol, the reason I'm asking all these questions is:
1. I'm running my first tournament as judge this Thursday and I'm thinking of house-ruling it to "one dice per table" but I'm not sure how others would take it.
2. There may be a big Southern Cal Clix Day coming soon and I want to come up with the proper dice policy if I end up running one of the qualifiers for it.

Thanks. I really appreciate everyone's input.

Dude, I have been a judge at different venues for a long time....
If dice abuse is your foremost anticipated problem, you got some serious ugly player problems. I recommend slowly and cunningly running off the ugly guys first, then promoting a fun creative environment for the good players. Now, not everyone is gonna agree with the "run off" strategy, but trust me it is in your and the venues best intrest.
Now, if someone is crazy enough to allow a first time judge to run qualifiers then, you be smart enough not to make a ton of extra rules.
Save yourself some headache.
If someone complains about some dice, just test them yourself and go from there.

[Ultron-16]

I'm getting tired of seeing dice with one side (six or one) having a symbol on it. What the hell are two Green Lanterns supposed to mean? I would be fine with these dice but it seems like every time my opponent uses a set of these dice, they neglect to tell me whether the symbol is a one or a six. Please be courteous and announce that your dice have a symbol and what it represents when you play these silly dice.


ROFL dude, you there to have fun or there to mope around?

[airdomin8]

Is it illegal to have more than one pair of dice?

[Jarimy123]

I dont see how it would be illegal. A lot of players I have seen play switch dice in the middle of a match. I never, ever, ever do that. I pick my dice and don't switch them the whole tourney. At one time I used the same dice for over a year. I'm a firm believer in riding the dice for as long as you can stand it.

And as far as the "symbol" in place of the 6 - dude all they have to do is roll them, and if you ask if it's a 6 they just pick it up and show you the opposite side and it's a 1. I don't get your beef with it. What because you see 2 symbol's and think they just rolled snakes?

[Hatut Zeraze]

I really consider dice to be a non-issue. I usually bring my own dice and expect to use those, but when I play with groups that expect me to use the same dice, it's no big deal.

I have never suspected anyone's dice to be a factor in any game I have ever played.

[SWTony]

If they don't allow it, I would immediately grab the dice and call the judge over for an impromptu inspection.

Yeah, try and grab my dice. I'm not a violent guy by any means, but if you decided that you were going to just snatch up my property, we'd have a much bigger issue than whether or not I'm trying to cheat at a stupid little friendly game involving plastic figures.

[Jarimy123]

In order to truly take 'clix to a national tournament level, one pair of dice per table, venue provided, and also, "a neutral clicker," someone not in the game, and not known to either player, to click the figs, for the tables in, say, the final 8 or 16 rounds, would go a long way to legitimize this game to the level of a card game, for instance.

Ummm, wouldn't you think that $$$ as prizes would go further than loaded dice detectors?

Man where are all these cheaters? Hahaha. A neutral clicker? Talk about a winner. What horrible deed did you have to perform in life to get given the job title of Neutral Clicker?

Ya know I used to want clix to become largely nationally competitive. Big prize tourneys, with buy ins and large $ prizes. When neutral clickers are involved, I think I'll stick with playing against myself at home on a Saturday night, followed by crying myself to sleep thinking of the golden days of yester year. When 1 damage meant you clicked your figure one click down, and fellow patriots of the click art really understood what it meant to game. Yea. yeaaaaaaaaaaa....

[Contingency Plan]

Ya know I used to want clix to become largely nationally competitive. Big prize tourneys, with buy ins and large $ prizes. When neutral clickers are involved, I think I'll stick with playing against myself at home on a Saturday night, followed by crying myself to sleep thinking of the golden days of yester year. When 1 damage meant you clicked your figure one click down, and fellow patriots of the click art really understood what it meant to game. Yea. yeaaaaaaaaaaa....

Those were the days, weren't they Jarimy? When you had to walk five miles to your venue and then back home. In the snow. Uphill. Both ways. With no shoes...... Man, I love the golden days of yester year.(Cries self to sleep)

[Jarimy123]

Those were the days, weren't they Jarimy? When you had to walk five miles to your venue and then back home. In the snow. Uphill. Both ways. With no shoes...... Man, I love the golden days of yester year.(Cries self to sleep)

Hahahaha. When a dice roll was a dice roll.

I'm not going to lie, I've completely lost touch with reality, end of year + accounts payable career = insanity. But threads like this help. Goodnight cruel clix world, maybe I can learn to be a neutral clicker as a less stressful career.

[Contingency Plan]

Hahahaha. When a dice roll was a dice roll.

I'm not going to lie, I've completely lost touch with reality, end of year + accounts payable career = insanity. But threads like this help. Goodnight cruel clix world, maybe I can learn to be a neutral clicker as a less stressful career.

Ok, but What If? What if you were a Neutral Clicker and you pulled a muscle in your thumb? Or broke your hand can couldn't hold onto the figure to click it....Would you have to ice down your hand after every match, like pitchers in baseball do after games? And what about paper cuts? And God forbid, cardboard cuts from opening booster boxes? Would that mean that a Neutral Clicker would have to get a Neutral Booster Box opener for them?

I don't know about you, but those things would keep me up at night...

[Samaritan]

C'mon... really?
This is not Poker, i think that is taking the game waaaaay to seriously.
I say play whatever dice you want.
If a guy plays fixed dice to win in Heroclix, i just got one thing to say: GET HELP.

[hclixinarcadia]

Now, if someone is crazy enough to allow a first time judge to run qualifiers then, you be smart enough not to make a ton of extra rules.
lol, I was a tournament director for scholastic chess for a number of years before I got into Heroclix. So, I'm not new to the tournament scene.

The most that ever participated in my chess tournament were over 100 kids. And kids are harder to manage than adults because kids will bicker over take-backs and touch moves when they blunder... something that adults can recognize and handle on their own. But with kids? Na-uh. You'd have to ask them and other kids around what really happened to get to the bottom of things. And, kids will cry when they are expected to win easily and they blunder and lose to a much lower-rated player... and then there are the parents... most parents are actually ok as long as you keep them out of the tournament hall.

All I'm trying to do is look ahead to the day when Heroclix becomes really big. When that day comes, standard tournament rules need to be in place. Standard tournament rules that are applied the same way regardless of the level of a competition.

[drax2099]

Okay a few items I would like to state.
1) how often does dice cheating come up? Really Shenanigans can be called and the Judge comes over and makes a ruling. Bad players are found out quick and marked really fast. fixing rolls but fixing dice?
2) I personally have three pairs of dice in my field kit and that's a red pair a white pair and a black pair and two sets came from WizKids Starters. In my secondary kit I have three pair one from Fantastic Four starter and one from HorrorClix. If I have had a few unlucky rolls I will switch dice to teach them a lesson not to give me bad rolls. Also if my dice have rolled off the table more than once I will let them lie while I start another pair to again teach them not to do that. Dice may not be sentient they do give us a lot of psychic focus in joy or despair or elation or disappointment. Do not mock the Karma of the dice.
3) I do not like sharing my dice. You have no idea where I have been and what I may or may not have done with my dice. I have no idea where your hands have been or up to. I have played a game with spit dice where you put a pair of dice in your mouth and shoot them into a box. Not with HeroClix mind you but I have only seen half that AD&D group since. I have washed my dice to make sure they are sanitary and I had a friend who would use postage scales to make sure they are balanced properly. So my dice are fit. I just don't trust other peoples hands all over my pairs.
4) Specialty dice or custom dice I believe should be showed before play to show which side is which and what that custom design is supposed to be. What gets me is when you have designs that are hard to read like the old MechWarrior dice which would have brown and green and a lightning strike pattern that made it hard to figure what the numbers were not just what was rolled. At least when you have a Warhammer die you know the Skull is a 1.
5) Die balls. Die in a cube. Die in an odd cube shape. Picto dice or Person intimate position dice. Card symbol dies. Overly large die. Teeny tiny die like from Pirates. Those are the ones that can really try an opponents patience. It's okay for a friendly little game but I believe you should check and have a spare regular pair before trying to attempt to use these.
6) Finally for the moment, Fuzzy dice should never be used yet seen unless hanging from the rearview mirror.
This is my own position on dice and do not necessarily reflect those of any particular venue I have played at however I have yet to see one venue disagree with this. Thank you for your time.

[hclixinarcadia]

Ummm, wouldn't you think that $$$ as prizes would go further than loaded dice detectors?

Man where are all these cheaters? Hahaha. A neutral clicker? Talk about a winner. What horrible deed did you have to perform in life to get given the job title of Neutral Clicker?

Ya know I used to want clix to become largely nationally competitive. Big prize tourneys, with buy ins and large $ prizes. When neutral clickers are involved, I think I'll stick with playing against myself at home on a Saturday night, followed by crying myself to sleep thinking of the golden days of yester year. When 1 damage meant you clicked your figure one click down, and fellow patriots of the click art really understood what it meant to game. Yea. yeaaaaaaaaaaa....
Damn, you're funny.

But jedeye has a point. If Heroclix got really big, you'd have to have a way to handle people that under-click. How else would you do that?

A neutral-clicker is one way although it's a little hard to provide a neutral-clicker per table.

What I do as a courtesy to my opponent is to click it in plain view counting along the way.

But if you really want everyone to do it that way, then it should be a standard tournament rule. If it is a standard tournament rule, then you wouldn't have to rely on someone doing it out of courtesy or have to worry about people under-clicking.

If it is in the rulebook that pieces should be clicked in plain view, then everyone would just do it because it is in the rulebook.

[charlesdward]

I dont see how it would be illegal. A lot of players I have seen play switch dice in the middle of a match. I never, ever, ever do that. I pick my dice and don't switch them the whole tourney. At one time I used the same dice for over a year. I'm a firm believer in riding the dice for as long as you can stand it.

And as far as the "symbol" in place of the 6 - dude all they have to do is roll them, and if you ask if it's a 6 they just pick it up and show you the opposite side and it's a 1. I don't get your beef with it. What because you see 2 symbol's and think they just rolled snakes?
At this point, most people know that custom dice have a symbol in place of the six. And really, is it so hard to ask? What am I going to do, lie that it's a six?
And as far as dice switching, if my opponent can't seem to roll above a 5 for the twelfth roll of the game, I've been known to suggest myself that maybe they should switch up.
I'd like to know that I gave them every possible opportunity for a fair chance before crushing them mercilessly. :grin:

[vamroc]

I have a big black bag full of dice (I even refer to it as The Magic Murder Bag) that I bring to every game it has everything from D20s to D4s I typically use them for action tokens with high point figures getting either D20s or giant D6s to represent them being more powerful than the average click. It just seemed to make sense that charactors who have immeasurable power should get dice that are scaled to match that power. While I usually use only one set per game sometimes if the suckage pretty bad I'll change sets four or five times in a game.

[Kite-Man]

Wow. I've never even thought of my opponent's dice before.

So THAT's why I keep losing.

[MopedKid86]

see? one pair of dice on the table would have avoided all this would it not?

In a normal situation, perhaps. But my outlandish dice made it easy for the opponent to call something and the judge to just rule them illegal to shut the guy up. Because of that factor (being my odd dice choice) the story is a poor example to prove any points for any side. I just like bragging about them.


The question is, how will you notice? When someone has rolled high several times and as shown by your story, even that is inconclusive. And, how does one find out for sure if dice are loaded? Do you have some kind of dice weighing scale handy? Do you just feel the weight in your hands? What if they are just slightly heavier on one side?

Simple: you ask if you can use them. Tournament regulations, including tournaments held at regular venues (not just cons and the like) state that you may request to use your opponent's dice and that he must honor that request. Paraphrasing, of course.

If the opponent seems too hesitant, it's possible he's just got a "thing" with other people touching his dice or they're actually loaded. If he says sure, you practice roll them a few times and check the average. No, not just once or twice, but seven or eight times. Check the results.

If he's iffy, call the judge over and ask the judge if he will kindly instruct player B to perform the previous test. You must make certain the same pair of dice is out at all times. A good cheater will switch the dice when you look to call the judge. How? A good cheater has a spare pair that looks identical or almost identical to his loaded pair ready for this switch at a moment's notice. All you have to do is look away. (This is why all of my pairs are distinctly different.)
Assuming you watched for the switch and it didn't happen, this goes a few different ways from here. In order of preference.
A. Opponent will roll dice for judge and they'll roll out a seven ish average. Or just won't roll phenomenally well. All is well. He's just been on a hot streak.
B. Opponent just switches the dice out to avoid a problem. You're not sure if they're loaded, but you're sure you won't see them again today. Watch him in the future.
C. The dice roll an absurdly high average. After additional rolls, the judge can determine that they're freakin' loaded. And take action.
D. Opponent vehemently refuses to perform said test, possibly on the grounds that it's ridiculous or that it's unfair. Judge should handle it in some way that invokes the end result that the guy can't use those dice anymore to prevent future issues.

I think that covers it.

[hclixinarcadia]

... If he says sure, you practice roll them a few times and check the average. No, not just once or twice, but seven or eight times. Check the results.
actually, that's inconclusive... valid dice may go on streaks. And, as someone pointed out earlier, loaded dice will not roll high all the time.

[Suttkus]

Simple: you ask if you can use them. Tournament regulations, including tournaments held at regular venues (not just cons and the like) state that you may request to use your opponent's dice and that he must honor that request. Paraphrasing, of course.

It's only paraphrasing if the rule exists. It doesn't. There is no such rule in any standard HeroClix document and there never has been. Your venue may have it as a house rule and many gaming venues have it as a general rule for all dice games, but it isn't an official rule at all, as has been stated several times on this thread already.

If the opponent seems too hesitant, it's possible he's just got a "thing" with other people touching his dice or they're actually loaded. If he says sure, you practice roll them a few times and check the average. No, not just once or twice, but seven or eight times. Check the results.

Seven or eight isn't remotely enough to check the accuracy of the dice. I'd recommend at least a hundred rolls to run a proper test, with the results of each roll written down and then analyzed.

If he's iffy, call the judge over and ask the judge if he will kindly instruct player B to perform the previous test.

I hope not! A short lucky streak would get you marked as a cheat!

[Jarimy123]

My stance on dice/under clicking/any form of handling cheating completely changes if/when Heroclix gets to high level tourneys. I believe stricter rules should be in place. But Heroclix has always been a game of self policing. If you think a player has underclicked their figure, it's pretty much on you to call them out on it. The numbers on the dial help.

If you are strictly suggesting high level tourneys have rules like this I think it's great. I do not think you need to have it trickle down to local tourneys to have it be effective and work properly.

I think it works that way even for Magic. Seems like local tourneys are looser, people playing for fun, a few ultra-competitive players sprinkled in, but for the most part it's all self policing. But when you get up to the higher level tourneys things are different.

I believe it should work the same way with clix. If you start forcing all tourneys to run games with 1 set of dice per table it becomes a turn off to casual players, which are the life-blood of any game.

[kfrog71]

I have a decent dice collection (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1388) and have never even though about their "balance," other than the handmade bone dice, which I don't use for that very reason. At the venues where I have played, no one has ever questioned which dice I use for that particular game.

About two months ago, I did hear about microwaving dice for better rolls and that seemed outrageous. Maybe I'm naive or too sheltered but I have never put this much though into the dice being altered. I have seen under-clicking and under-tokening (?) but never anything with dice.

I have a bit of a dice fetish and give my due diligence to the dice Gods, heck I even partly believe that dice have souls, but even I am amazed this question got so many responses. I would have definitely chimed in earlier had I known. When considering the quality of the well thought-out replies, it is clear that others have the same questions and concerns.

Whoduthunkit?

As for the poll question, I don't think you should be allowed to switch dice for serious tournament play (they should be considered part of your build) but it shouldn't matter other than that.

[jedeye]

Yeah, try and grab my dice. I'm not a violent guy by any means, but if you decided that you were going to just snatch up my property, we'd have a much bigger issue than whether or not I'm trying to cheat at a stupid little friendly game involving plastic figures.

yeah, probably wouldn't actually do that, since I'm usually a non-confrontational type of person, unless I was certain the dice were loaded and REALLY wanted that LE.....;).....:m-boot: (speed helps :nervous:)

[jedeye]

actually, that's inconclusive... valid dice may go on streaks. And, as someone pointed out earlier, loaded dice will not roll high all the time.

actually tested my dice (3 pairs of D6) last night, using the 30 rolls test for each individual die (yeah, I couldn't just watch Tues. night football without doing something else at the same time)
One pair stood out at an average of 3.75, while the "weakest," got 3.2 (average of both together). I noticed a paucity of 5's in all of my dice, oddly (likely too small of a sample size).
I then played around with the pairs for awhile after, and I am convinced that it was not a large enough sample size, because the weakest pair performed the best on 15-20 subsequent paired rolls. I suspect 30 is not enough rolls; you probably need 100 or more. However, the difference is so small, I now like all of my dice equally (though I'll always have a soft spot for my orange, green pipped little champs that came out at 3.75, God bless their little Thing souls)....lolz

[drax2099]

I have a bit of a dice fetish and give my due diligence to the dice Gods, heck I even partly believe that dice have souls, but even I am amazed this question got so many responses. I would have definitely chimed in earlier had I known. When considering the quality of the well thought-out replies, it is clear that others have the same questions and concerns.

Whoduthunkit?
I did!

So did JedEye!

We both sort of responded that there is a Soul or God or Karma to Dice and we all take our dice and people's response to them personally.

I blame Herbie The Love Bug. If it's not to much of a stretch to believe a car can have a soul or life of it's own then it can't be too much of a jump for a pair of dice.

[SWTony]

yeah, probably wouldn't actually do that, since I'm usually a non-confrontational type of person, unless I was certain the dice were loaded and REALLY wanted that LE.....;).....:m-boot: (speed helps :nervous:)

The question you have to ask yourself is can you run faster scared than I can pissed?

:laugh:

[cteshwayo]

if you think Heroclix players are too attached to their dice, you should see tabletop RPG players. When one roll of the dice can doom a character you've become emotionally invested in, perhaps over the course of months or years, you get pretty darn superstitious about your dice.

As far as some of thhe suggestions I've seen, I just don't think there is any reliable statistical way to determine whether a pair of dice is loaded, just in the course of a single game, or even in a single night of gaming. Every time someone rolls a die, there is an equal chance of it rolling a 1 or a 6. While having a run of luck might be improbable, it is far, far, far from impossible. In order to verify that the dice are performing "better" than they should, you would need an impractically large sample size.

And remember, loaded dice do not guarantee high rolls- they just make slightly more likely statistically. Over the course of a night, you might get 20 rolls 10 or higher, instead of say 15. Again, to confirm these statistical trends takes far more thorough testing than in the course of a single match. I've been in games where I didn;t miss more than one or two attacks, and I've seen my Crisis Black Adam hit only one of the Runaways, and that was Gertrude Yorkes and Old Lace, and only once.

Point is, you can't assume that someone is cheating just because they are on a hot streak. That does nothing but start a Loaded Dice witch hunt, where people begin to hope that they don't roll too well, lest they are accused of bringing loaded dice. And no environment where accusations of cheating can be made so easily can be a fun gaming environment.

(That might be overly dramatic, but hey! Rhetoric!)


If the organizers of large events are really that worried about loaded dice, the solution is easy- Buy or get some dice made (preferably unique and clear plastic- they would make a fine door prize for a con), don't show anyone what they look like before the event, and have people use those. No one can show up with loaded dice because nobody is using their own dice.