Stealth and adjcent characters.

[Slade Wilson]

Real simple we have all heard the artguments. so i just wanted to see what the current feelings on this issue would be.

Should adjacent characters automatically be able to have line of fire to each other?

[VictorySaber]

I figure it this way- if someone knows that their opponent is there and can slam them with a haymaker, logic also dictates that you'd know they were there for other purposes...

now, perhaps in the case of outwit, you'd perhaps roll a d6, and on a 4,5 or 6, you'd succeed in negating the power you were going to cancel, effectively representing that you might not be positive that what you did affected the person who's hidden from your visible sight... same sorta thing for perplex against an adjacent in stealth...

if things were to change, I could see that being one way to go about it

[tyroclix]

Do we really think Outwit, Prob Control, and Sharpshooter need improvement?

It also takes away from good positioning. I get that positioning is really top-tier playing and there are a lot of casual players who just want to run out to the middle and throw dice, but all these casual players need to do is get out of the fan-made mentality that "Stealth = can't see them" and all the problems are resolved.

[tyroclix]

I figure it this way- if someone knows that their opponent is there and can slam them with a haymaker, logic also dictates that you'd know they were there for other purposes...

now, perhaps in the case of outwit, you'd perhaps roll a d6, and on a 4,5 or 6, you'd succeed in negating the power you were going to cancel, effectively representing that you might not be positive that what you did affected the person who's hidden from your visible sight... same sorta thing for perplex against an adjacent in stealth...

if things were to change, I could see that being one way to go about it

Do you really think the game needs more dice rolls?

[Fullmetalfreak94]

IMO only if they have sharpshooter.
i see it this way:
person without sharpshooter adjacent to a stealthy person:
you know someones there but not who or what they do(explains the outwit).
person with sharpshooter:
you still don't know who they are or what they do, but you have a gun & can still shoot at others but not the person next to you.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Yep, totally. I've been arguing this point for years.

Iron Man is adjacent to Batman:

Iron Man: I punch Batman.

Batman: Ouch!

Batman: I kick Iron Man in the groin.

Iron Man: *highpitched voice* Owwwieee.

Iron Man: I Outwit Batman's Stealth, since I know where he is now, so the rest of my team can see him.

Judge: You can't see Batman so you can't Outwit him.

Iron Man: What the f*&% do you mean I can't see him. I standing right in front of him, and I just punched him, he kicked me back. He ain't the ####ing Invisible Woman. Look Judge, I'm even holding Batboy's hand here.

Judge: Sorry, it's the lame game mechanics that void all reason. You can't Outwit him.

Iron Man: That's just stupid. I'm going to go create an Anti-Stealth Armor with an overpowered anti-stealth Trait and make sure it's undercosted to ensure point creep continues in this game.

Yeah.. that's just about how stupid it is that you can't Outwit adjacent characters.

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

Do we really think Outwit, Prob Control, and Sharpshooter need improvement?

It also takes away from good positioning. I get that positioning is really top-tier playing and there are a lot of casual players who just want to run out to the middle and throw dice, but all these casual players need to do is get out of the fan-made mentality that "Stealth = can't see them" and all the problems are resolved.

I think you should be able to Outwit stealth characters in adjacency.

But I also agree with everything you just said about running in the middle of the map with no positioning. I swear this is how most HeroClix players, and why so many people are so easy to beat.

But I think Outwit needs to be dumbed down, but I also think it should be able to draw LoF in adjacency.

I think Outwit, as powerful as it is, should be a Power Action. Or maybe keep it a free action, but the Outwitter must make a 5 or 6 on a d6 roll to succeed.

[airdomin8]

First off, GREAT survey! Simple and effective!

Also, a resounding YES!

Stealth is way too potent and could be balanced out once an opposing character becomes adjacent.

Kind of like saying, "Look! Guys! The Batman's over here! I've got him by his big pointy ears!"

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Agreed. The current rule doesn't make much sense.

I'm really surprised they haven't fixed this one already.

[TheAwesomeness]

Stealth works like this: If someone is so well hidden in a bush that no one can see him to shoot him. So, how would you know where he is if you were right next to the bush? I like stealth just the way it is. However, I do think you should be able to outwit ajacent stealthy characters, but it should be a power action, to resemble searching the bush, then outwiting the seen character.

[tyroclix]

I think Outwit, as powerful as it is, should be a Power Action. Or maybe keep it a free action, but the Outwitter must make a 5 or 6 on a d6 roll to succeed.

Outwit is too expensive to hamstring it that much.

Next issue:

Iron Man: I'm going to Outwit Batman's Stealth.

Batman mashes a button on his utility belt - a loud fizzle is heard.

Iron Man: Drat. Can't draw Line of Fire to this sneaky cuss. Lets see if I can get him out of this hindering - presses the Force Blast button.

RECORD SCRATCH

Player 1: :mad: Wait, wait, wait. Force Blast doesn't do damage. I'm not gonna use Force Blast to dislodge Batman when I should be able to counter his power AND hit him for 4.

:cry: Its the rules' fault! Its not fair! Fix the rules so I can complain how lame Force Blast is and what a waste it is! I want to Outwit everything! Then I can complain that Outwit is too powerful, too!


I do find it interesting how a rule change results in a domino effect.

Adjacency = auto Line of Fire and because of this Outwit needs to be changed to a dice roll.

The game favors range already - its funny how players want that crutch improved. How different the game would be if I just had to run R Black Panther over and Outwit stealth on a figure so everyone could just safely shoot them from range.

That's Lame.

Oh yeah, we need to make Outwit a Power Action and a dice roll, too...

And then Damage Reducers need to go down one level when Outwitted so it takes 2 Outwitters 2 Power Actions and 2 dice rolls so a figure with 2 damage can hurt them.

I'm thinking no on this idea...

[Silent Coyote]

IMO this is the biggest flaw with the game. I run a lot of Batman Allies and it irritates me that I can't perplex up allies in stealth, and then it just doesn't make sense when it comes to outwitting in melee range. It really needs to be changed

[pattheimpaler]

IMO this is the biggest flaw with the game. I run a lot of Batman Allies and it irritates me that I can't perplex up allies in stealth, and then it just doesn't make sense when it comes to outwitting in melee range. It really needs to be changed

You can turn off Stealth for your turns and on on your opponents' so your own guys can use Perplex, Probability Control, etc., on each other.

It does get frustrating that you can't Outwit stealth through adjacency, but I think changing it would make the LoF rules much foggier.

Here are easier ways to deal with Stealth than whining:
Hypersonic Speed
Charge
Force Blast
Pulse Wave
Ultimates/Super Man TA
Quake
Poison
Energy Explosion targeting adjacent characters
TK combined with any of those powers
Trick Shot
Maneuver
Green Lantern
Dr. Strange
Captain America
Destroying objects or Super Strength
and don't forget
Inferno
Krakoa the Living Island
Nowhere to Hide
Bright Lights
Disbanded (for Batman TA)
Astral Plane

[ManOfCopper89]

Do we really think Outwit, Prob Control, and Sharpshooter need improvement?

It also takes away from good positioning. I get that positioning is really top-tier playing and there are a lot of casual players who just want to run out to the middle and throw dice, but all these casual players need to do is get out of the fan-made mentality that "Stealth = can't see them" and all the problems are resolved.

I agree with this sentiment. I don't think these powers need any more help. If we could Outwit the power of someone in Stealth just by being adjacent, then we would see people moving full-speed into adjacency with pesky stealth pieces to Outwit them if necessary all the time.

[rwint1968]

I voted yes as I have always thought that Stealth was intended to combat ranged attacks mostly. Once you're adjacent to a stealthed figure, your either going to try and attack them or vice versa.

:cool:

[bludd72]

I don't think the new SR Green Lantern would approve of this rule change. :ermm:
it is what it is. and as others have said, don't think of stealth as invisible.
the mechanic works fine, most are just whining because they don't wanna do the leg work required to beat stealth.

no offence, but i'm guessing that some of the people complaining about how stealth works are new to the game. To them i say this....
this is how stealth has worked from the beginning. us 'veterans' have learned how to deal with it and so should you.

as Mike Muir once sang..... "Just cuz you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good".

suck it up and deal. it's only a game. :tired:

don't mean to be a d-bag, but seriously.

not too sure if some are missing the big picture, but changing this mechanic will just snowball and could potentially ruin the game.

[tidge]

I happen to think that the stealth rules have always been unbalanced in favor of the stealthed character. This proposed change is simple enough and not terribly unbalanced IMO. The dumbest effect of the stealth rules is that a character in stealth becomes a square of blocking terrain that cannot be targeted or destroyed.

[Carabas]

It makes perfect sense, but I like it the way it is?

Ruleswise, the current rules make perfect sense. The same rule that prevents Outwitting adjacent Stealthed characters also prevents the use of Psyblast or RCE on adjacent characters.

[blftg]

i just voted on this. but after reading more into it, i change to no. for outwit and such, you know "someone" is there. but since you dont know who, you cant outwit said power.

[rorschachknew]

I voted no.
I also decided not to read all the other posts.

But the game is complicated enough without more exceptions.

[Sheeplover]

Yes. Please let us change a basic game mechanic that has been in place since 2002. :tired:

[happyoptimistic88]

Real simple we have all heard the arguments. so i just wanted to see what the current feelings on this issue would be.

Should adjacent characters automatically be able to have line of fire to each other?

Yes, it makes sense, you are right next to a character. But the ruling is fine the way it is now, I can the logic of it though.

[Slade Wilson]

I don't think the new SR Green Lantern would approve of this rule change. :ermm:
it is what it is. and as others have said, don't think of stealth as invisible.
the mechanic works fine, most are just whining because they don't wanna do the leg work required to beat stealth.

no offence, but i'm guessing that some of the people complaining about how stealth works are new to the game. To them i say this....
this is how stealth has worked from the beginning. us 'veterans' have learned how to deal with it and so should you.

as Mike Muir once sang..... "Just cuz you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good".

suck it up and deal. it's only a game. :tired:

don't mean to be a d-bag, but seriously.

not too sure if some are missing the big picture, but changing this mechanic will just snowball and could potentially ruin the game.

Are you kidding? look at how many mechanics have changed over the games life as well as how many new mechanics have been added. In all cases the game improved. Also I hate when people pull the "if you cant deal with it" BS. No one is saying it cant be dealt with, but some of us like the fact that we can offer feedback that may improve overall game play.

[kfrog71]

I'm voting no just because it is already established. When I started, it made no sense to me why LOS was blocked when I was adjacent to a stealthed opponent.

If the game were just starting up, however, I would recommend that stealth would only be effective against ranged effects- no matter what they were.

[VictorySaber]

those not trying to be douces- sure. that's why they've gone ahead and just made powers that out and out just BLOCK line of fire entirely to the character.

If stealth has always been balanced and whatnot, I do need to ask then, why did we ever need to look to powers beyond the superman and ultimates TA's to deal with them? Did we ever really need the Eye of Agamoto, or Cap's Shield Trajectory? or the most recently bottled wine topic, Cosmic Spidey's Uni-Vision? No, of COURSE we didn't! But here they are, free to be abused just like stealth, and other powers that just block line of fire, such as those exhibited on the recent Invisible Woman, and soon, I wager, a few more figures.

[Prof. Aragorn]

A character with stealth has the following power:

Line of fire drawn to the character that crosses hindering terrain - including the square this character occupies - is blocked.

If line of fire is blocked, then nothing gets it unblocked except for countering, canceling, or otherwise ignoring/not using the power.

Not being next to them.

Let's keep the rules the rules and stop making stupid exceptions just because people can't use their imagination or otherwise "don't get it".

[The7ofDiamonds]

Also: Characters shouldn't have to "see" themselves.

[Cliffjumper]

I believe there is a feat that satisifies this complaint from players...its called HOMING DEVICE and Im pretty sure it came out of Armor Wars...and for the record I think its stupid too.

Also I absolutely LOATHE the fact you can Super Sense a Mind Control attack. That doesnt make sense. The power is attributed to characters avoiding physical attacks...not mental ones.

[T. Paul Stiles]

My personal gripe with Stealth is when a character can't see THEMSELVES to use perplex on themselves.

Do you know how well you have to hide so that you don't know where you are?

[Wade Wilson]

I just find it funny that the guy standing next to Batman can't see that Batman is standing behind the gumball machine...

[Rahe Stone]

If anything, just get rid of them acting as blocking terrain. Stealth is powerful enough that it doesn't need this.

[Kamakura]

I didn't vote on this. I think that adjacent FRIENDLY characters should have LoF, but not adjacent enemies.
If it were an all or nothing choice then I'd say "where's my piece with Elite Sniper at?" and if I didn't have one I'd choose to leave things as they are.

[Marshal Law]

The irony is that stealth works as it does because it is simply too difficult for game design and game balance to implement a simple representation of hidden forces. Rather than accept that game design compromise, people are using it as a backwards assertion foot hold to watering down the ability even further.

If people are so eager to latch on to that dangerous "comic/game reality" third rail with both hands, then consider that if the ability worked as what it is supposed to represent, you wouldn't even know where the figures were located in order to move adjacent to them - let alone close combat attack or any other affect currently allowed or being argued for.

The rules work as they do so that characters with a skill for hiding or invisibility can be given some useful representation in the game without the hassles of error (and cheat) prone movement logs. Or turning every other game into a lopsided sniper dominated turkey shoot. As fugly as they are for logic purposes, the rules work as a balancing act for fairness and simplicity. Stop trying to "reality springboard" the logic loopholes the rules intentionally accepted in the interest of *playability*, and just live with the end results.

[UltraMANOS]

with all the different ways to bypass stealth, figure it out. At some point it will be you benefiting from stealth in melee through adjacency.

call the Whambulance already!

[crazymike2501]

no

no outwitting stealth... or any line of site stuff...

its not that you cant see them or dont know that there is someone there..

its a defensive power... maybe they are like ninjas and using their stealth to avoid attack..

or maybe they are just too good at combat for you to get a clear shot at them...

or maybe they are from the future and have to stop you from doing what yo doin so they have to use stealth aganist you so you dont know who they are...

like how the ultimates have anti stealth... one has a suit to see them... another is a master of martial arts... so stealth tricks dont affect them...

yeah, thats what i think.

[GraveTheDarkestHero]

Well this is how i think about it. Outwit, perplex, prob and all other "support" powers are used by people who need time to use them. example for batman to use outwit he needs to know what he is facing and how to deal with them. For Mr. Fantastic to perplex he would need to make a device or something like that (Now keep this in mind). When 2 characters are in close combat they are in combat. meaning they are face to face and dealing with each other. when Batman is in combat against a "Stealths" nick furry i doubt he will have time to come up with the best strategy to disable or "Outwit" anything nick has got especially when he is in close combat. As far as batman saying to robing he's over here throw a batarand at him, He's in stealth robin cant see.

[archaeolad]

Hmm.. Ok stealth... When I play with my group it goes something like this...

Stealth keeps piece hidden from ranged combat attacks, this includes acting like blocking terrain (yay - Moon Knight is a wall).. but not close combat ones.. since the stealthed piece can be hit by a close combat attack... the one doing the CC attack can also outwit if they have it.. allowing the stealth to be turned off... and team mates can attack to help out the close combatter... -(it can make sense: you are right next to the person so you can fight them, if they still have stealth though, your team might wonder who or what you are punching at)

Now, the team mates of the one who is stealthed can see their comrade, and can help them out... such as perplex up the defense, or lend their defend value... - I think this one is due to the fact that stealth is an optional power? (i think? - per the blackest night PAC) The stealther is either coordinating with the team or turning it off.

[Grumpygoat]

If people need the logic of it, it's like this:

If you can attack someone in Stealth in close combat, you clearly know they're there in some capacity. But that doesn't mean you know who the person is - shadows and smoke might cloak Batman, the Sue Richards may be invisible, and Nick Fury might be in disguise. In other words, an opponent doesn't know what he's up against, even if he can swing or shoot (because, yes, you can still shoot a gun at someone 5' in front of you) at the Stealthed character.

Meanwhile, when Batman Perplexes up his own damage, that glowing kryptonite rock he just slipped on makes him stand out, so of course he has to drop his Stealth. Or Mysterio's missed attack means that he has to reveal himself to land a blow, thus allowing him to use Probability Control, but also making him vulnerable to it as now an opponent knows which Mysterio to pay attention to. Thus explaining why a character needs to drop Stealth to use their own powers on their self.

So the comic logic is there.

If it's a matter of game balance? OK, fine, but not everyone seems to be arguing from that position.

EDIT: And for my part, I could go either way on it - though it makes it a bit more prone to abuse by people, as adjacent allies can now use Perplex and Probability Control on Stealth characters with greater impunity.

[JoeGualtieri]

no offence, but i'm guessing that some of the people complaining about how stealth works are new to the game. To them i say this....
this is how stealth has worked from the beginning. us 'veterans' have learned how to deal with it and so should you.

as Mike Muir once sang..... "Just cuz you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good".


Just because you do like and it's old doesn't make it good.

[JoeGualtieri]

It makes perfect sense, but I like it the way it is?

Ruleswise, the current rules make perfect sense. The same rule that prevents Outwitting adjacent Stealthed characters also prevents the use of Psyblast or RCE on adjacent characters.

That's not even remotely correct.

[gdragon616]

if you were besides a ninja who is in stealth or camoflage and was about to ambush you can you realy see him or her before he stabs you to death??? can you really outwit batmans gadjets underneath his cape when he is besides you????

[Grumpygoat]

if you were besides a ninja who is in stealth or camoflage and was about to ambush you can you realy see him or her before he stabs you to death??? can you really outwit batmans gadjets underneath his cape when he is besides you????

You can see them because you can hit them with a close combat attack. But, as already pointed out, there are a few factors that might interfere with Outwit, Probability Control, whatever.

People generally shouldn't base a change on whether or not it makes comic-sense or not. That can get fanwanked away until the cows come home. It's not hard to think of reasons why Iron Man can't Outwit Batman when he's in Stealth and they're both adjacent.

Meanwhile, people should focus more on the mechanical side of things. Is Stealth, as is, balanced? Is it good for the game? Those are the questions that should be asked.

[BigSoph]

Considering the number of silver bullets against Stealth (superman, ultimates, Dr. Strange, cosmic spidey, PULSE WAVE), why not just eliminate it completely?

Why not make it hindering terrain counts as a bonus to defence?

Wait, that's not fair, it makes your character harder to hit. How about we make Stealth have no effect? And, since it is unfair that you perplexed your character's damage up 3 and then I go and roll shape change, super senses or Impervious, negating the attack... how fair is that?

They're gone too

See where this leads?

While I agree Stealth could have been done better, I am not in favour of changing the current rules because you want to use the power that is actually far more unbalanced, Outwit

[BigSoph]

That's not even remotely correct.

Actually it is remotely correct... if a character has shaprshooter

[Trader2699]

*checks poll results*

...and this is why rules aren't written by the majority. You have no idea what balance issues this could create.

[Thrumble Funk]

Yep. Can we get by without a change? Obviously. Would a change be cool in my eyes? Definitely.

[IceHot]

Line of FIRE (LoF) is not the same as Line of SIGHT (LoS).

LoS is not blocked by Stealth and thus you can punch.
LoF is blocked by Stealth and thus you can not do the extra things like Outwit and Perplex that require more then just Line of Sight.

[MattMinus]

I've always thought that Outwit wasn't nearly powerful enough. It's up there with force blast and smoke cloud among the powers that no one ever uses.

[KillerSavage]

I voted keep it the way it is. There are quite a few ways around stealth that are available and probably many more to come. As much as I hate to say it and it sounding kinda rude but people need to adjust their strategy not change the power. Even if I don't have stealth busting on my team it's not that big a deal to me.

Other than damage reducers, combat reflexes is the only power that makes stealth up close truly potent. Though before they added that +2 for defense to the power it was almost worthless. Now combat reflexes is a great power. I like how it works well with stealth figures in particular.

Now if it's only the matter of it being counterintuitive there is a long line of other powers in front of stealth/adjacency. How many seconds does it even take to explain it to the new player anyhow?

[MattMinus]

As a corollary to this change, I would like to suggest that any attack made while adjacent hits automatically unless the target has combat reflexes. It just doesn't make sense that I wouldn't be able to hit someone that I was standing right next to.

[mrben]

I have actually been playing this wrong since I started a few months ago. In my group we have allowed outwit to target because of adjacency and have had no landslide of problems as a result.
Now, my fairly novice group isn't a fair sample. We are all brandnew or newish players, so it stands to reason that there are exploits and strategys a more experianced player may have figured out because of this environment.
That disclaimer aside, I like outwit working around stealth because of board position. It just makes sense.

[IceHot]

We are all brandnew or newish players, so it stands to reason that there are exploits and strategys a more experianced player may have figured out because of this environment.
What you end up doing is subtle and you probably well just adapt and not even realize it.

With that rule augmentation you basically slightly devalue Stealth and Non-HSS Close Combatants. Close Combatant are generally more efficient against Stealth, but when you devalue stealth you in turn devalue close combatants (which are already getting the short-end of the stick).

You are probably already valuing Range and HSS pieces fairly high so making an adjustment to the game that only reaffirms your playstyle would naturally go unnoticed.

[songwriterz]

Stealth works like this: If someone is so well hidden in a bush that no one can see him to shoot him. So, how would you know where he is if you were right next to the bush? I like stealth just the way it is. However, I do think you should be able to outwit ajacent stealthy characters, but it should be a power action, to resemble searching the bush, then outwiting the seen character.

Captain America: Mockingbird! Quit kicking that stupid bush!

Mockingbird: But, it says "Ouch!" everytime I kick it!

Captain America: Who's in there? Can you disarm him? Can you neutralize their abilities?

Mockingbird: No, but I like the way it says "Ouch!" everytime I kick it. Do bushes have balls?

[songwriterz]

I promise you this, if they changed this ruling - such that adjacent characters can outwit stealthed characters - you would have a lot of people quit the game. Its the cornerstone of the strategy of about half the teams I play against. You would literally shut down half the gamers out there if they couldn't hide in the bushes, snipe you with their Outwit and then dare you to base them.

[Faster Than Flash]

If it is counter-intuitive for a new player to understand, there is something wrong with the rules.

[Faster Than Flash]

I promise you this, if they changed this ruling - such that adjacent characters can outwit stealthed characters - you would have a lot of people quit the game. Its the cornerstone of the strategy of about half the teams I play against. You would literally shut down half the gamers out there if they couldn't hide in the buses, snipe you with their Outwit and then dare you to base them.

Those people will find another cheap tactic to use. No worries.

[BigSoph]

Line of FIRE (LoF) is not the same as Line of SIGHT (LoS).

LoS is not blocked by Stealth and thus you can punch.
LoF is blocked by Stealth and thus you can not do the extra things like Outwit and Perplex that require more then just Line of Sight.

There is no such thing as line of sight in heroclix.

None.

Nada.

Nil.

There is line of fire and adjacency. Adjacency allows close combat attacks, a clear or hindered line of fire allows ranged combat attacks

[VenomDaBomb]

if you can attack them you should be able to target them with power. with that said i always believed outwit should not be able to removed Defense powers.

also I think PB and EW should ignore all defense powers. If you are exploiting someones weakness you are avoiding there defenses no just getting around bulletproof skin...

but hey that's just me =)

[DrZero]

Since "No, because it's logically consistent due to the wording on stealth and on line of fire" was not an available choice, I went with the option that was closest.

[DrZero]

Line of FIRE (LoF) is not the same as Line of SIGHT (LoS).

LoS is not blocked by Stealth and thus you can punch.
LoF is blocked by Stealth and thus you can not do the extra things like Outwit and Perplex that require more then just Line of Sight.

Excellently said, sir! Rep to you for this.

[Shatter006]

I agree with pattheimpaler, their are plenty of powers that can be used to deal with the annoying Bat in the bush. Positioning and tactical advance will always be key to identify problem pieces and the order in which they should be dealt with. A good batman and deathstroke, stealth on stealth fight in a bush...tends to be fun...lol

[IceHot]

There is no such thing as line of sight in heroclix.
So we are in agreement then?

[bludd72]

Are you kidding? look at how many mechanics have changed over the games life as well as how many new mechanics have been added. In all cases the game improved. Also I hate when people pull the "if you cant deal with it" BS. No one is saying it cant be dealt with, but some of us like the fact that we can offer feedback that may improve overall game play.

while i agree that it seems silly that you can't outwit the same guy whose face yer bashing in at close range, i don't think the BIG picture is being acknowledged.

it's been said countless times Slade, that LOGICALLY you'd be able to outwit a stealthy guy in CQC, but that is in the REAL world. Stealth provides a simple game mechanic....ie: LoF to stealthed figs is considered blocked. done.

Now, the big picture is this......changing Stealth, means changing TA's that benefit from it or against it (Bats/Supes), not only that, but now we have to change yet another game mechanic (Perplex) to coincide with this. all because some people don't like it?

Humor me, how exactly will this make the game BETTER if it's changed?
it may make sense to us all in logicland, but that's it.

And as i have stated already, changing this now makes the new GL useless....not to mention the new Bane.
his trait will be garbage, period. now we have to errata his Trait because we changed outwit, perplex and a couple TAs.

it isn't BS it's the way it is and it isn't all that bad.

hey, don't get me wrong, if it is possible to change this without casualties, then go for it.
but if it means printing a new rule book just to compensate? leave it be.

Now IF i were to change ANYTHING about stealth, i'd do something like this.

"....LoF drawn to this character are considered blocked by opposing characters only."

THAT makes sense. who gives a rats arse if your Black Panter is adj to my Bats. all you KNOW is there is someone there, you have NO idea who exactly it is, therefore you have no idea at all WHAT to outwit.
that is kinda the point to stealth.

imho it's tiring hearing all the whining about this and that....sooner or later the game will have changed so much it wont even be heroclix anymore.

Now as far as other mechanics being changed? yea changing HSS was a necessity to stop all the cheeseballs from wrecking the game. this is one example of where a change is actually warranted.

[songwriterz]

Now as far as other mechanics being changed? yea changing HSS was a necessity to stop all the cheeseballs from wrecking the game. this is one example of where a change is actually warranted.

<jaw drops>

The reason this is even an issue is because Stealth cheeseballs wreck the game by abusing the power. If that was not the case, no one would care.

So changing the game is warranted when you think it is warranted but not warranted when you don't think it is warranted?

<jaw drops again>

I'm going to go over there and do something else for awhile. That made my head hurt.

[Thrumble Funk]

The reason this is even an issue is because Stealth cheeseballs wreck the game by abusing the power. If that was not the case, no one would care.

This is not my experience, and I've gotten more frustrated due to pre-NAAT, LAMP, SIF, etc., than I ever have with a Stealthed Outwitter.

Irritating? Sure. Sometimes maddeningly so? Yep (I'm looking at you, AA Question). But the Stealth/Outwit combo has been around for years, and has never proven to be a problem for me.

How does one abuse Stealth? I get wildcard "abuse" and whatnot, but Stealth? It is a power.

[haymaker]

Leave outwit and stealth alone! If you start tinkering with those powers, a ton of characters will either no longer be worth their points or will be broken good. Just my opinion, but leave it alone MAN

[Kite-Man]

Just TK Hypertime™ Blue Beetle® in and Force Blast that guy outta hindering terrain.

[konasavage]

Stop complaining about stealth.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

...all because some people don't like it?

Actually, the majority of respondents have said they don't like it.

[MattMinus]

I hate it when cheeseballs abuse range by staying one square beyond mine. Range is completely counter-intuitive.

If I lined 24 people up single file, I could shoot way past all of them with a pistol. How confusing is that to a new player? My handgun can't hit anything beyond ~30 feet?

There needs to be a change or this range abuse will continue.

[A_Higher_Level]

Just like a Law and Order marathon, so this debate returns from the grave to haunt us once again...

"Yes, I think Stealth should be changed. No, I will not be a dink about it if it doesn't."

[sylnzz]

You can turn off Stealth for your turns and on on your opponents' so your own guys can use Perplex, Probability Control, etc., on each other.

It does get frustrating that you can't Outwit stealth through adjacency, but I think changing it would make the LoF rules much foggier.

Here are easier ways to deal with Stealth than whining:
Hypersonic Speed
Charge
Force Blast
Pulse Wave
Ultimates/Super Man TA
Quake
Poison
Energy Explosion targeting adjacent characters
TK combined with any of those powers
Trick Shot
Maneuver
Green Lantern
Dr. Strange
Captain America
Destroying objects or Super Strength
and don't forget
Inferno
Krakoa the Living Island
Nowhere to Hide
Bright Lights
Disbanded (for Batman TA)
Astral Plane

I agree with you here. You know people are going to use stealth. Use [blank] from above to combat it.

I would add Talia in the mix there as well.

[songwriterz]

I agree with you here. You know people are going to use stealth. Use [blank] from above to combat it.

I would add Talia in the mix there as well.

And my own favorite pieces of abuse:

1.) Thunderbolts TA - Bullseye sees you in there. And so do all of my wildcards!
2.) Nightcrawler - you're in hindering - BAMF! - now you're not!

It would be clixageddon if they changed the rule - no matter how much sense it makes - so you just gotta improvise, adapt, overcome, thunderbolts!

[T Rez]

I think you should be able to Outwit stealth characters in adjacency.

But I also agree with everything you just said about running in the middle of the map with no positioning. I swear this is how most HeroClix players, and why so many people are so easy to beat.

But I think Outwit needs to be dumbed down, but I also think it should be able to draw LoF in adjacency.

I think Outwit, as powerful as it is, should be a Power Action. Or maybe keep it a free action, but the Outwitter must make a 5 or 6 on a d6 roll to succeed.

I agree that outwit should have been a power action to begin with. I doubt this will be changed though because it would mean that units with outwit will be much less effective for the same amount of points. Also, many dials that have outwit were designed around it being a free action. Changing it to a power action would cause too many problems with current outwitters.

[Master Morlun]

This has been one of those 'why the heck not' rules from the start. I also agree with the cancelling of damage reduction powers, lower it to the next level, not cancel it all out....logically it makes no sense but then again......its a game, not reality. The main complaint from people has and will always be about stealth. I could understand cancelling, say super senses or what not from adjacency but not stealth. Trust me, i can't stand Bat teams myself, but for those who do use them, they play it cause its annoying as hell and, heres the kicker, it works. You wanna beat those kind of people at their own game, it's called ultimates and superman allies team ability.....and more than obviously, wildcards to copy. You know they aren't gonna change line of fire just because you cry about it.....learn to adapt to your opponents or go play checkers with your grandpa.

[Magneticlaw]

Its helps to distinguish between "what makes sense", and this little thing called game balance. Consider that every relevant figure, feat, special power, rules change, etc. - to this particular power were made with stealth being played a certain way since the beginning of the game. - the way it is now. Sure, Ant-Man can block line of fire from The General to Blockbuster, makes sense? - nope. But without this very staple item of strategy it becomes a very different game, and Ant-Man becomes an very overcosted character.

[Skuttlebutt]

I think the problem is that Stealth is a general term. Batman being in Stealth and somehow not allowing you to see him even if you've punched him, doesn't make sense because the Bat uses ninja like hiding so one could make him out. BUT, Invisible Woman is invisible so they use Stealth to represent that, even though she's invisible and shouldn't be able to be seen even up close.

[mandoman10]

wait. someone explain what the current ruling is. :cross-eye

[TimoSupremo]

Whenever I see a stealthed character next to another figure I always imagine them doing the John Cena "you can't see me" hand gesture... :knockedou:knockedou:knockedou

[ZZZ]

I can't believe we're still having this discussion. This is a case that I hope WK/NECA isn't listening. Even if the majority of the respondents are saying they would like it to be different, there are too many cogent arguments for keeping it as is.

[IceHot]

wait. someone explain what the current ruling is. :cross-eye

The current ruling is the game is based on Line of FIRE not Line of Sight....Whether you see Batman to punch him or not makes no difference for powers like Outwit which require Line of FIRE not simply Line of Sight.

The difference in non-game terms is that not only do you have to see him, but you have to have a greater quality of a clear path in order to be able to do more then just see someone.

Its not sufficient to just see Batman to disarm him, you have to have more clarity then that if you want to actually prevent him from using his powers without making a single roll of the dice.

Its the difference between Line of Sight not used in HeroClix and Line of Fire which is used.

Any hindering terrain in the path of Line of FIRE to a Stealthed figure is Blocked regardless of how close you may be. Yes, you can still see him to punch him, but no you dont have a clear enough Line of FIRE to make a difference in neutralizing his powers.

[joeldad]

HeroClix in this regard gets things wacky with stealth to begin with. If Batman is in Stealth how the $$(@@$$)) does say Doomsday know he's there? He's clearly stealthy enough where he can't throw a dumpster at him, but he knows he's there.

So he can charge and declare he is using Exploit Weakness on an opponent he clearly can't see and wouldn't know what their weakness IS to Exploit. Somehow he KNOWS there is someone there, but it could be Spiderman, or Impossible Man, or someone like Superman where his EW would be handy. I have a bigger issue with that but seeing as all players know where all characters are on the board, it works both ways so it is still balanced, quirky, but balanced.

It's chicken or the egg here. HeroClix is general made Stealth a little to powerful IMO but that's just a slight game design flaw IMO. For instance Star Wars minis has Stealth be you can't shoot them if you aren't within 6 squares...(there is other wording about closest character blah-ti-blah). Having Batman be unseeable at any range is a little hard to believe given the level of a lot of comic character's built ability to track, smell, or x-ray vision only for attacks not Outwit, etc. A power like Inv. Girl's Invisibility should have been a little more like what Stealth should have been, but at the same time this game isn't a 'save' where you have an awareness check or whatever.

Since HeroClix made Stealth a 'can't see him at any range' power unless you have the specific counters, keeping it consistent by having a power requires you to clearly be able to know who/what you are attacking to use (IE Outwit, can't 'outwit' someone if you don't know who they are or what their power is!!!) or other free action power (PC/Perplex). It's hard to say for sure IMO. Just because you KNOW someone is there, doesn't mean you can find a way around their powers. If old school NGN Superman was in a bush and little ol' Detective Chimp was right next to him, I don't think from a practical standpoint DC would KNOW it was Superman, pull out some kryptonite (outwitting his Impervious), then smack him all in one turn just isn't practical.

The current ruling keeps it consistent with the way they designed stealth. IMO it isn't broke, it's just how the game was designed. Just because something is IN the bushes next to you doesn't mean you can clearly see who/what it is in said bush because you know there is someone in that bush wouldn't probably happen in the first place if it was truly someone stealthy like BATMAN in the dang bush. Your opponent knows where your figures are at all times even though his figures 'can't see them'. It's BALANCED the way it is. If this game was truly accurate Batman would be jumping out of bushes without your opponent knowing he was even there.

Because that's the definition of Stealth, being undetectable. If you know where my Batman is at all times you REALLY shouldn't be able to see him as well. Hence my Chicken vs egg argument.


Now please someone tell me that made sense...



EDIT: I just came up with an idea! I would actually be in favor of having outwit work vs an opposing adjacent character IF they had to take a power action to use it. That would represent them listening, thinking, putting on a pair of infrared goggles, etc. That is still kind of a stretch but if that was the ONLY thing they could do outside of free action attacks not part of another action than it would be balanced I think. That would make a minimum of 2 figures be required to work together to have 1 figures see the target, and then the other one could attack it.

Or I could be crazy.

[Grumpygoat]

And as i have stated already, changing this now makes the new GL useless....not to mention the new Bane.
his trait will be garbage, period. now we have to errata his Trait because we changed outwit, perplex and a couple TAs.


While I'm essentially fine with Stealth as is, this comment? This comment is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrongy wrong. The new Green Lantern is still useful because he can blast someone in Stealth without being adjacent to them, then allow other people who aren't adjacent to the Stealthed character to also blast the figure or otherwise use powers like Outwit.

And then we have Bane, who doesn't need to be adjacent to Outwit people in Stealth. He can be ten squares away and still give the finger to Batman.

Neither individual's trait will be garbage. They'll be mildly diluted and still useful.

[JoeGualtieri]

Actually it is remotely correct... if a character has shaprshooter.

Did you read what I was replying to? The rules that prevent psyblast and RCE from being used in base-to-base contact have nothing to do with why you cannot outwit adjectent, stealthed characters. Heck, up until the FF starter, it was legal for :m-boot: and :m-wing: to use those powers against each other in base-to-base contact.

[Mister mind]

You can turn off Stealth for your turns and on on your opponents' so your own guys can use Perplex, Probability Control, etc., on each other.

It does get frustrating that you can't Outwit stealth through adjacency, but I think changing it would make the LoF rules much foggier.

Here are easier ways to deal with Stealth than whining:
Hypersonic Speed
Charge
Force Blast
Pulse Wave
Ultimates/Super Man TA
Quake
Poison
Energy Explosion targeting adjacent characters
TK combined with any of those powers
Trick Shot
Maneuver
Green Lantern
Dr. Strange
Captain America
Destroying objects or Super Strength
and don't forget
Inferno
Krakoa the Living Island
Nowhere to Hide
Bright Lights
Disbanded (for Batman TA)
Astral Plane

rep to you as I read this later I usually have this ready for new players that don't know how to stop the batman multi outwitters.

[haibane13]

I think the recent ruling is good enough because it makes use of stealth . No power should be ignored simply because some logic or convenience is wanted , unless those arguments seek to improve the game (remember soaring rules ? ) I don't think that's the case in this situation . I think this power just wants to be ignored for the sake of some logic that is to no benefit of the game or some minor convenience in strategy to attempt to usurper stealth .

[bludd72]

<jaw drops>

The reason this is even an issue is because Stealth cheeseballs wreck the game by abusing the power. If that was not the case, no one would care.

So changing the game is warranted when you think it is warranted but not warranted when you don't think it is warranted?

<jaw drops again>

I'm going to go over there and do something else for awhile. That made my head hurt.

as i've tried to explain before, i agree that stealth rules are a bit 'weird'. all i am trying to say is that changing something like HSS was simple. Now, you have to halve your range when doing a ranged attack with it and the 3x CQC has been removed, big whoop. this dialed the cheese down a bit while at the same time not affecting the game in any major way at all.

pick up yer jaw and think about this.......changing stealth will affect more than just stealth. that's my point. i mean it's been this way since day one and NOW everyone wants change?
i'm all about changing it if....and only if....it doesn't require a major overhaul. make it a power action? sure. make it so only friendlies can see friendlies? sure. make it so that any regular joe blow click with outwit can see up close? no. why? simple, this makes something like the Superman/Ultimates TA useless when i could run my 27 point Black Panther right up to your Batman and outwit him.

the two examples i pointed out are really my issue.....Green Lantern and Bane would both need erratas just to accommodate the change.
edit: maybe not so much GL, but Bane would suffer.

i totally agree that stealth abuse is lame....i can honestly say the ONLY time i will play a cheese team is to crush some d bag for continuously playing cheese. otherwise i play the most obscure teams you've seen. i play for fun. it's unfortunate that there are people out there that never seem to partake in the comicbook fantasy element of this great game and instead just feed their ego by playing with only winning in mind.

and please dont flame me for this comment, it's my opinion and i respect an individuals right to play as they see fit, i just dont agree with some. to each their own.

it's been competently expressed that there are a ton of ways to get around stealth, but oddly these answers fall on some deaf ears.

for the record, i never really had a prob with how HSS played, i never complained about it then and i don't now. however, i do like the change.
so when you say things like..... "So changing the game is warranted when you think it is warranted but not warranted when you don't think it is warranted", my answer is simply NO. im not the one laying on my stomach pounding my fists on the ground cuz i have to deal with a power that i deem unfair. i suck it up and play the game.

do i like the fact that the King only moves one square, while the Queen seems to glide across the board? no, but then again i didn't invent the game now did i? i'm just the guy rolling with the punches playing the game by its rules.

and as far as abuse is concerned, how about playing 3 or more of the SAME character? where's the logic in that (aside from generics)? should we petition to have it so we can only play one fig of the same name?
there's currently a house rule (highlander), but nothing set in stone (exception:uniques) by WIZNECA. noone seems to mind that though. i hate it, but i also accept it.

noone said you or anyone else has to like what i have to say, but i have the right to speak my mind.....especially in a poll. :tired:
and i stand by my opinion that stealth is fine as is.
that being said, if a change does come about, then so be it. i'll then play the game by those rules.

i couldn't care less either way to be honest, but my preference is with keeping it as is.

[Harpua]

So is this going to be a somewhat quarterly poll? (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287637)

:tired:

It is fine as is.

[bludd72]

While I'm essentially fine with Stealth as is, this comment? This comment is wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrongy wrong. The new Green Lantern is still useful because he can blast someone in Stealth without being adjacent to them, then allow other people who aren't adjacent to the Stealthed character to also blast the figure or otherwise use powers like Outwit.

And then we have Bane, who doesn't need to be adjacent to Outwit people in Stealth. He can be ten squares away and still give the finger to Batman.

Neither individual's trait will be garbage. They'll be mildly diluted and still useful.

lol i know i feel stupid for this comment. i re-read the trait and swallowed my pride....and hopefully corrected myself somewhat?
glad you pointed this out though Grumpygoat.
hopefully it's not as wrongity wrong wrong as it was before. :confused:

all in all...i'm just saying leave it be.

[haibane13]

The problem with this poll is that neither option answer it's question . Option 1 deals with if it makes sense to the player that stealth rules be changed in a specific way and not if they think stealth rules should be changed specifically . The first option should have said "Yes stealth rules should be changed in this manner" . Option 2 deals with "liking it the ways it is" and not "it should be left the way it is" .

[konasavage]

So is this going to be a somewhat quarterly poll? (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287637)

:tired:

It is fine as is.

Who won last time? Hahaha!

[mandoman10]

The current ruling is the game is based on Line of FIRE not Line of Sight....Whether you see Batman to punch him or not makes no difference for powers like Outwit which require Line of FIRE not simply Line of Sight.

The difference in non-game terms is that not only do you have to see him, but you have to have a greater quality of a clear path in order to be able to do more then just see someone.

Its not sufficient to just see Batman to disarm him, you have to have more clarity then that if you want to actually prevent him from using his powers without making a single roll of the dice.

Its the difference between Line of Sight not used in HeroClix and Line of Fire which is used.

Any hindering terrain in the path of Line of FIRE to a Stealthed figure is Blocked regardless of how close you may be. Yes, you can still see him to punch him, but no you dont have a clear enough Line of FIRE to make a difference in neutralizing his powers.

thanks man. and then whats this about NOT being able to perplex friendly stealthed figures. thats true?

im such a nooblet.

[MattMinus]

So is this going to be a somewhat quarterly poll? (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=287637)

:tired:

It is fine as is.

I think we're fated to see this poll every time Slade loses to a Batman team.

[hclixinarcadia]

changing how LOF and Stealth work will make Stealth a little less valuable and thus change the way figures are costed... are you going to then errata every figure that has Stealth? No.

A lot of things in the game don't relate to reality. It's ok the way it is.

On a separate note, being in the same square as an object = not being adjacent to it is kinda ridiculous though and should be changed.

[haymaker]

changing how LOF and Stealth work will make Stealth a little less valuable and thus change the way figures are costed... are you going to then errata every figure that has Stealth? No.

A lot of things in the game don't relate to reality. It's ok the way it is.

On a separate note, being in the same square as an object = not being adjacent to it is kinda ridiculous though and should be changed.

Agreed on both points....the object thing just came up the other day - Thing got dragged back to the Shield Disruptor by Nightcrawler and couldn't destroy it on his turn because he was on it and blocked in by other enemies...lame

[bgreyloc]

I like how it works with stealth. otherwise adjacent is adjacent. I've heard oher talk about this, but never ran across it in the rules. new or old. for instance. an Illuminati team's bread and butter is defend and perplex, while clustered. There was a debate of being able to perplex on an adjacent diagonal. I've never seen anything that even remotely addresses that issue, and don't know why there is an issue. Adjacent is adjacent. Stealth is the exception.

[Dr. Z]

This has been one of those 'why the heck not' rules from the start. I also agree with the cancelling of damage reduction powers, lower it to the next level, not cancel it all out....logically it makes no sense but then again......its a game, not reality. The main complaint from people has and will always be about stealth. I could understand cancelling, say super senses or what not from adjacency but not stealth. Trust me, i can't stand Bat teams myself, but for those who do use them, they play it cause its annoying as hell and, heres the kicker, it works. You wanna beat those kind of people at their own game, it's called ultimates and superman allies team ability.....and more than obviously, wildcards to copy. You know they aren't gonna change line of fire just because you cry about it.....learn to adapt to your opponents or go play checkers with your grandpa.

QFT

Sun Tzu: know the field. Know the opponent. Know thyself. Adapt accordingly to win.

[hclixinarcadia]

QFT

Sun Tzu: know the field. Know the opponent. Know thyself. Adapt accordingly to win.

Take that VGA .... Lol just kidding

[tidge]

Sun Tzu: know the field. Know the opponent. Know thyself. Adapt accordingly to win.

You left out: check errata.

[spider_ham]

Stealth works fine as-is, imho. Feats and special powers are available that allow Stealth to be ignored or countered through an attack; those are better alternatives than reworking how the power functions.

[jolt]

I voted "Keep it the way it is".

As far as "Things that are illogical in the game" to me, this issue doesn't even crack the top 10. I always found it amazing that Batman, certain Robins and other could throw a Batarang as far as other people could project energy. There are numerous things in the game that make no sense. Heck, comics themselves rarely make sense. The need to condense action into, relatively, small panels often means the art shows a blaster right in the face of an enemy, who could crush them like a grape, before letting loose even though that is almost certainly not the way they would go about it.

The ruleset is about 9 years old and they've added to it without changing the core of it. Originally, HeroClix was supposed to the "Beer & Pretzels" game while Mage Knight and Mechwarrior were to be the more tactical/strategic games. Obviously, that's not the way it went. After NAAT and FFCF and then again when the Feats/BCF's/Pogs were introduced, I argued that they should rewrite the rules from the ground up basically making it HeroClix 2.0. The response to that would have led you to believe that I was the spawn of Satan (many people still feeling angsty and bitter at the time over what happened to Mage Knight).

But I still think an opportunity was lost there to correct, what I saw as, certain weirdness in the game (e.g. Team Abilities, like the Avengers/JLA, that don't require other team members; essentially make them not team abilities at all but rather powers that couldn't be Outwitted).

Unfortunately, I think it's too late to do that now. Too many things have been added to the game and dial design philosophy has changed too much. Range is still more "King of the Game" than Stealth is. And if you did change it, you'd just create a cascading effect of inconsistincies that would create more problems than it solved. Stealth doesn't exist in a vacuum; changing it now would be disastrous.

jolt

[jackstar7]

Nope. It's a power and its cost presumably includes adjacency.

Keep rockin' the shadows.

[Grumpygoat]

It's a power and its cost presumably includes adjacency.


While Stealth should stay the way it is, the idea that its cost includes adjacency is not an argument for keeping it the way it is. If people think that Stealth is a problem, then its cost clearly doesn't reflect its utility.

The idea that its cost includes adjacency isn't really an argumentative point worth making. Though, again, the idea that something makes "sense" isn't an argumentative point worth making, either - the reason powers don't work through adjacency can be explained away in any number of ways.

The real points to be made are whether it's balanced as-is or not and possibly how confusing certain powers are.

[IceHot]

If it has to be eratted to make sense, then it should be eratted so that...
If you cant see him in the Stealth then you can't punch him even when you are adjacent?

Or perhaps it really has nothing to do with making sense!

[jackstar7]

While Stealth should stay the way it is, the idea that its cost includes adjacency is not an argument for keeping it the way it is. If people think that Stealth is a problem, then its cost clearly doesn't reflect its utility.

The idea that its cost includes adjacency isn't really an argumentative point worth making. Though, again, the idea that something makes "sense" isn't an argumentative point worth making, either - the reason powers don't work through adjacency can be explained away in any number of ways.

The real points to be made are whether it's balanced as-is or not and possibly how confusing certain powers are.

I use "cost" as part of my balance formula.

[oddjob1138]

Outwit should work with adjacentcy. I imagine, say, the Black Panther, grabbing Batman and pulling him from behind the gumball machine so everybody else can take a shot. Perplex too I guess. The rest of the range stuff? Nah.

[oddjob1138]

I think Outwit, as powerful as it is, should be a Power Action. Or maybe keep it a free action, but the Outwitter must make a 5 or 6 on a d6 roll to succeed.

This x1000! Especially the free action with a roll. That would be best.

And while your at it, one roll, one prob. No more multiple rerolls.

[KillerSavage]

I can't believe this poll has stayed at 60/40.

[Harpua]

I can't believe this poll has stayed at 60/40.
I can't believe that only 40% of responders like clear-cut, simple rules.:)

[MattMinus]

I just had a brainwave. Adjacency can be confusing for so many things. Outwit, standing on objects, larfleeze, the list goes on and on.

What if we were to cut the Gordian knot? Why not do away with adjacency, LoF, and the distinction between range and hand to hand all together? It could be the best of both worlds!

Simply choose any opposing character on the map and use any of your powers, abilities or attacks on it! Not only would it simplify things it would prevent stalling and speed gameplay.

[Grumpygoat]

I use "cost" as part of my balance formula.

And, again. If it's utility in play exceeds the cost it adds onto the character, it's not balanced. We've already seen a number of powers change over the years - Hypersonic Speed has received a number of changes. Perplex has received a number of changes. All of these were presumably given a certain cost per click, yet you won't see many people screaming for Hypersonic Speed to regain some of the things its lost (full range, option 2) because the figures with it are still really, really good.

Saying that the power was originally given a certain cost for doing certain things (blocking line of fire even when adjacent) isn't really an argument for whether it's balanced or not. If figures with Stealth would still be good even if adjacency ignored it, then it doesn't really matter what the cost initially entailed.

Again, I'm basically fine with Stealth the way it is - but plenty of powers have received changes over the years, all of which originally included parts that have now been removed (Hypersonic Speed) or been added onto (Perplex).

[KillerSavage]

And, again. If it's utility in play exceeds the cost it adds onto the character, it's not balanced. We've already seen a number of powers change over the years - Hypersonic Speed has received a number of changes. Perplex has received a number of changes. All of these were presumably given a certain cost per click, yet you won't see many people screaming for Hypersonic Speed to regain some of the things its lost (full range, option 2) because the figures with it are still really, really good.

Saying that the power was originally given a certain cost for doing certain things (blocking line of fire even when adjacent) isn't really an argument for whether it's balanced or not. If figures with Stealth would still be good even if adjacency ignored it, then it doesn't really matter what the cost initially entailed.

Again, I'm basically fine with Stealth the way it is - but plenty of powers have received changes over the years, all of which originally included parts that have now been removed (Hypersonic Speed) or been added onto (Perplex).
HSS option 2 was horrible and was painful to watch anyone try and use it. At the time of the change to range being halved there were only a few figures with HSS and range. Perplex if anything was made more powerful. Neither seem like great examples why stealth needs to be a little less effective or outwit more powerful.

[jolt]

I brought up the issue of "what makes sense" because some seem to feel that Stealth should be changed because "it doesn't make sense" with the current adjacency rules. My point, poorly made apparently, was that there are many things in the game that don't "make sense" and using that as an arguement to change Stealth and adjacency means nothing. I don't see gameplay as being adversely affected or unbalanced by it; quite the opposite in fact.

Many of the suggested changes to Stealth/adjacency here would just devalue the "Fighty Bruiser" compared to the "Rangey Blaster". As I think that HC already leans too far in that direction I'm generally opposed to any ruling that would make it moreso.

I like HC as the, relatively, simple game that it is. I don't want to see it become some Superhero wargame with a 100+ page rulebook to cover every potential oddity and combination that might come up.

You bought the game though, play it however you want.

jolt

[VenomDaBomb]

TAKE A LOOK WK/NECA Everyone wants you to change it! that would be sweet. players could base a stealth character and yell hes over here! Then Boom!

that would be sweet.

[Grumpygoat]

HSS option 2 was horrible and was painful to watch anyone try and use it. At the time of the change to range being halved there were only a few figures with HSS and range. Perplex if anything was made more powerful. Neither seem like great examples why stealth needs to be a little less effective or outwit more powerful.

They're examples of powers losing things or gaining things that were supposedly part of their cost. I'm not arguing about changing Stealth, per se - rather the idea that something shouldn't be changed because it was priced with certain powers/effects/immunities in mind. There have been plenty of abilities that have been altered since the game began - Hypersonic Speed, Perplex, Shape Change, Combat Reflexes, wildcards, and so on and so forth.

A request to change Stealth is akin to saying that the power isn't priced right. If people thought that Stealth was fine as-is, they wouldn't complain about it. "Comic accurate" complaints aside, a complaint about a power is a complaint about the cost. As such, bringing the cost up is pointless. It's not a point worth arguing, at least from a mechanical perspective.

[HH2011003]

TAKE A LOOK WK/NECA Everyone wants you to change it! that would be sweet. players could base a stealth character and yell hes over here! Then Boom!

that would be sweet.

While I do agree with you, and I myself come down on the side of Stealth being changed to accommodate adjacent LOF, I've gotta' say that 60-40 does not scream "everyone" to me. :P

-------

They're examples of powers losing things or gaining things that were supposedly part of their cost. I'm not arguing about changing Stealth, per se - rather the idea that something shouldn't be changed because it was priced with certain powers/effects/immunities in mind. There have been plenty of abilities that have been altered since the game began - Hypersonic Speed, Perplex, Shape Change, Combat Reflexes, wildcards, and so on and so forth.

A request to change Stealth is akin to saying that the power isn't priced right. If people thought that Stealth was fine as-is, they wouldn't complain about it. "Comic accurate" complaints aside, a complaint about a power is a complaint about the cost. As such, bringing the cost up is pointless. It's not a point worth arguing, at least from a mechanical perspective.

It's worth noting that Shape Change was literally made twice as effective without breaking the point formula. This by itself pretty well illustrates the point Grumpygoat's trying to make.

[KillerSavage]

While I do agree with you, and I myself come down on the side of Stealth being changed to accommodate adjacent LOF, I've gotta' say that 60-40 does not scream "everyone" to me. :P

-------



It's worth noting that Shape Change was literally made twice as effective without breaking the point formula. This by itself pretty well illustrates the point Grumpygoat's trying to make.
I see what grumpygoat is saying. Here is the kicker though. All the examples he has given with maybe the exception of wildcards(which changed and changed back again) the powers either gained usefulness or didn't have all that much taken away. HSS option 2 was a dud. You might make an argument towards the halving of it's range kept the cost the same and made it less effective. Though like I said there weren't that many figures affected by that change at the time. Whereas stealth you are affecting a very large group of figures. Their cost begins to be to high for what they are able to do rather than to little or a little less.

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Perhaps it's not stealth that needs to be changed, but the LOF rules. A simple errata:

"LOF can always be drawn to adjacent, opposing characters."

[Thrumble Funk]

I can't believe that only 40% of responders like clear-cut, simple rules.:)

Yes yes, clear cut and simple rules and all that. Wonderful.

60% of those polled are open to the possibility of a rules augmentation. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. At all.

[KillerSavage]

Yes yes, clear cut and simple rules and all that. Wonderful.

60% of those polled are open to the possibility of a rules augmentation. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. At all.
Maybe it needs changed the other way. Outwit, probabilty, and perplex just shouldn't work in adjacency at all. Stealth or no. That might be easier for folks to remember.

[silversurfr77]

everyone here is commenting on adjusting the rules to accomodate line of fire to adjacency, but what about close combat? if a character is in stealth, and you cant see him, then how can you attack him period? stealth is stealth. anyone played Arkham Asylum on XBOX? My point is, this wouldnt be the only case that would lead to a draw in a game. i was playing against HoT Ultron the other night and i was using Barry Allen, and these were the last two pieces. Ulton can fly and use ranged, Barry Allen has no ranged attack. Ultron went to an area of elevated terrain that had no access via stairs. i had to sit on the other side of the board and wait. Again, if stealth is being used in hindering terrain, how can you close-combat attack (hit) somebody you can't see.....(draw a line of fire to) ???

[CarlosMucha]

The Word "UNLESS" make the game every day more complicated and less fun.

You can't see on steath, simple like that.

[Grumpygoat]

everyone here is commenting on adjusting the rules to accomodate line of fire to adjacency, but what about close combat? if a character is in stealth, and you cant see him, then how can you attack him period? stealth is stealth. anyone played Arkham Asylum on XBOX? My point is, this wouldnt be the only case that would lead to a draw in a game. i was playing against HoT Ultron the other night and i was using Barry Allen, and these were the last two pieces. Ulton can fly and use ranged, Barry Allen has no ranged attack. Ultron went to an area of elevated terrain that had no access via stairs. i had to sit on the other side of the board and wait. Again, if stealth is being used in hindering terrain, how can you close-combat attack (hit) somebody you can't see.....(draw a line of fire to) ???

You can see them. You just don't know entirely who it is or what they're doing. If someone mugs you in a dark alley, you can probably see their silhouette, but you might not be able to identify them to the cops later. That won't always be the case in Heroclix, but similar logic still applies.

[KillerSavage]

There is something that is worth mentioning in this thread that may not have all that much to do with the argument. Also I don't know if it's been mentioned. That is that I don't think batman could be outwitted if he wasn't hiding behind a gumball machine. The gumball machine just makes it much less likely.

[silversurfr77]

well there you have it, if i have a silhouete, then i have a target (line of fire/sight) ranged combat attacks should be allowed to characters hiding in hindering terrain with stealth. that would make more sense wouldnt it?ranged OR close combat attacks should be allowed to be made, maybe say from half the range, but all powers and abilities should be ignored.

[Biplane]

What would make sense to me, and be easy to remember, simple to work with, not game-breaking, and would make sense is simply if there is an opposing character adjacent to you, stealth is turned off.

The logic here being that if Riddler is hiding from Batman, but gets jumped by Robin, once they are in pitched combat, obviously Riddler is no longer hiding. Also, Robin's probably saying "He's over here!" Etc. etc. That should mean, logically, that you can hork a batarang in that general direction.

This would increase the importance of positioning for the player playing the stealthed piece, as they cannot rely simply on squatting there and pew pew-ing a team unfortunate enough to bring someone like the Leader.

It weakens stealth, but it does so in a way that makes sense, and increases the strategic aspect of the game. Stealth still blocks line of sight to you, until someone finds you and starts yelling their head off. You still get your advantage against range, but it is less of an action-funnel for your opponent to counter it.

Outside of Superman and the Ultimates, and $30 Cap, your Modern-Age options for dealing with stealth all involve throwing something into adjacency anyway, with the notable exception of Hypersonic Speed (which judging from all the times we've seen speedsters get stuck on glue and so on, I wonder why they're able to break away automatically from Clayface, but that is a question for another day). Okay, yeah, you can pulse wave, that's true, but poison? Quake? Force blast?

A power that REQUIRES you to specifically have those powers/characters/teams on a specific click, in sufficient force to survive blades-y death from X-Force is not strategic, and this is even before considering Outwit and Perplex not working.

Just one more paragraph, I promise. If I play a stealth team, especially one with range, I automatically know what my opponent is going to do. He is going to attack me in close combat. Because that is all he can do. Do you see the problem with that?

[Paranoid]

Seems like there's two schools of thought on this. One follows rules for a logical battle. If you're standing adjacent to someone and trying to hit them, then you should be able to attack them with other powers like Outwit.

But the second way of thinking about it is from a pure gaming mechanics standpoint. Outwit is a powerful weapon a clix can have and Stealth may be a good way to balance it with other clix that maybe aren't as strong.

I personally voted 'Yes' because I like to view clix from a more 'comics' oriented point and not just from a gaming standpoint, though I do see merit in both arguments.

That's just my two cents about it anyways.

[KillerSavage]

well there you have it, if i have a silhouete, then i have a target (line of fire/sight) ranged combat attacks should be allowed to characters hiding in hindering terrain with stealth. that would make more sense wouldnt it?ranged OR close combat attacks should be allowed to be made, maybe say from half the range, but all powers and abilities should be ignored.
Interesting that you would just shoot someone in the dark without knowing who it is. Just taking a shot at shadows all the time wouldn't leave you with many friends.

It's a game mechanic thing. In close combat you don't need to draw line of fire that's why you are able to make an attack. For powers that need line of fire they won't work because stealth blocks line of fire through hindering terrain.

Not everything can follow real life/comics life. There has to be a game and strategy aspect otherwise all we are doing is rolling dice. Besides how you think it works in real life probably differs very greatly than how it is in the comics and games. Ask anybody who had a special forces guy sneak up on them. Can't find one? I wonder why?

[super57]

Yep, totally. I've been arguing this point for years.

Iron Man is adjacent to Batman:

Iron Man: I punch Batman.

Batman: Ouch!

Batman: I kick Iron Man in the groin.

Iron Man: *highpitched voice* Owwwieee.

Iron Man: I Outwit Batman's Stealth, since I know where he is now, so the rest of my team can see him.

Judge: You can't see Batman so you can't Outwit him.

Iron Man: What the f*&% do you mean I can't see him. I standing right in front of him, and I just punched him, he kicked me back. He ain't the ####ing Invisible Woman. Look Judge, I'm even holding Batboy's hand here.

Judge: Sorry, it's the lame game mechanics that void all reason. You can't Outwit him.

Iron Man: That's just stupid. I'm going to go create an Anti-Stealth Armor with an overpowered anti-stealth Trait and make sure it's undercosted to ensure point creep continues in this game.

Yeah.. that's just about how stupid it is that you can't Outwit adjacent characters.

Batman is in a bush, but Iron Man can see him, since he is next to him and can spread open the bush limbs with his hands, but others from a distance are not close enough to see Batman. Make sense. However, if Iron Man rips the bush out of the ground, Batman is exposed isn't he. I do not think you should be able to Outwit Stealth, but I am for figures with special powers that could remove Stealth, like Human Torch or Pyro burns the bush forcing Batman out of Stealth, or Doom singes the Bush, or some sworded figure cuts the limbs off the bush. I only say this, since most would not want to see Batman reduced in power, since he is a fan favorite. "Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana Batman"

[Harpua]

Batman is in a bush, but Iron Man can see him, since he is next to him and can spread open the bush limbs with his hands, but others from a distance are not close enough to see Batman. Make sense. However, if Iron Man rips the bush out of the ground, Batman is exposed isn't he. I do not think you should be able to Outwit Stealth, but I am for figures with special powers that could remove Stealth, like Human Torch or Pyro burns the bush forcing Batman out of Stealth, or Doom singes the Bush, or some sworded figure cuts the limbs off the bush. I only say this, since most would not want to see Batman reduced in power, since he is a fan favorite. "Nana Nana Nana Nana Nana Batman"
Wow. A figure like that would really be powerful and make all previous figures nearly obsolete.

[KillerSavage]

Wow. A figure like that would really be powerful and make all previous figures nearly obsolete.
I know. Imagine if he was only 23 points. Maybe if the figure was 145 points. Still if only.

:laugh:

[Biplane]

Interesting that you would just shoot someone in the dark without knowing who it is. Just taking a shot at shadows all the time wouldn't leave you with many friends.

It's a game mechanic thing. In close combat you don't need to draw line of fire that's why you are able to make an attack. For powers that need line of fire they won't work because stealth blocks line of fire through hindering terrain.

Not everything can follow real life/comics life. There has to be a game and strategy aspect otherwise all we are doing is rolling dice. Besides how you think it works in real life probably differs very greatly than how it is in the comics and games. Ask anybody who had a special forces guy sneak up on them. Can't find one? I wonder why?

I absolutely agree. It's a game mechanic thing. The problem is that it seems to be a BAD game mechanic thing. It limits strategies that can be played. It limits pieces that are useful. How can that be a good thing?

[KillerSavage]

I absolutely agree. It's a game mechanic thing. The problem is that it seems to be a BAD game mechanic thing. It limits strategies that can be played. It limits pieces that are useful. How can that be a good thing?
Well if you don't have one strategy that works against another we end up just rolling dice. Stealth neutralizes outwit, probability, and perplex. Why is it wrong for that counter to stay in effect in adjacency? Why should I not have a strategy to get around those abilities if I like? I wouldn't want someone to bring ultimates or superman ta if I'm using that particular strategy. That doesn't mean I'll want the rules changed to accomodate that desire. For every strategy there is a counter strategy. You bank on outwit and someone is using stealth these things happen.

[Grumpygoat]

well there you have it, if i have a silhouete, then i have a target (line of fire/sight) ranged combat attacks should be allowed to characters hiding in hindering terrain with stealth. that would make more sense wouldnt it?ranged OR close combat attacks should be allowed to be made, maybe say from half the range, but all powers and abilities should be ignored.

I can shoot someone with a gun at five feet away. Heck, I can shoot someone with a gun if I'm hugging them. Stealth doesn't stop Deadshot from using his guns at close range - it just stops him from using his guns effectively, because that silhouette doesn't really let him know where all his target's vulnerable spots are. Maybe that's the guys head, or maybe it's his hat. So Combat Reflexes apply and powers like Ranged Combat Expert don't.

But it's not like someone's ability to repulsor beam or optic blast has been shut down because they're adjacent to a figure.

People need to get this idea out of their head that adjacency means using your fists and feet rather than continuing to use guns, laser eyes, and so on.

[super57]

Wow. A figure like that would really be powerful and make all previous figures nearly obsolete.

Yes, you are right. Bad idea. How about just making some figures with this special power, but do not make it a free action, and require the person to get a certain dice roll to use it, just to bring some reality to the game? Otherwise, people will play OOTS Batman on every team.

[sparks4289]

Otherwise, people will play OOTS Batman on every team.

luckily for us wizkids has retirement of old sets that prevents this exact problem. OOTS Batman will be golden age only soon, and I can't wait!

[silversurfr77]

[QUOTE=KillerSavage;5246013]Interesting that you would just shoot someone in the dark without knowing who it is. Just taking a shot at shadows all the time wouldn't leave you with many friends. QUOTE]

Well, as a friendly I should KNOW where all my friendlies are, and some shady figure hiding out in shadows, given that I know where my TEAM is, I can safely assume it's an enemy. And what's the difference between taking a "shot" in the shadows versus taking a "swing" at someone in the shadows? Are you going to tell me that Ranged Style Attacks will do more damage than, say, SI Hercules holding 2 heavy objects with super strength crushing the heck out of me for a ton of clix?? Either stealth is obsolete, and needs to be revised, or stealth doesn't make sense and needs to be revised. That's how I see it, but what do I know, I'm still a noob. :cool:

[sparks4289]

Well, as a friendly I should KNOW where all my friendlies are, and some shady figure hiding out in shadows, given that I know where my TEAM is, I can safely assume it's an enemy.

I have to disagree with you here, the Justice League very rarely knows exactly when and where batman will pop out to help. I can site numerous episodes of the JL Animated Series where batman was thought to be out of comission, or just plain dead, and he was really hiding nearby the entire time. He reveals himself just in time to save the day. He even gets Martian Manhunter to use his psychic abilities to help further conceal his presence (from both his enemies and his friends). I can site specific episodes if you'd like, but bottom line is, you never know where the batman is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[silversurfr77]

Manhunter must know where he is if he's psychically linked to Batman. Are we talking game rules here or Justice League cartoons??

[KillerSavage]

Well, as a friendly I should KNOW where all my friendlies are, and some shady figure hiding out in shadows, given that I know where my TEAM is, I can safely assume it's an enemy. And what's the difference between taking a "shot" in the shadows versus taking a "swing" at someone in the shadows? Are you going to tell me that Ranged Style Attacks will do more damage than, say, SI Hercules holding 2 heavy objects with super strength crushing the heck out of me for a ton of clix?? Either stealth is obsolete, and needs to be revised, or stealth doesn't make sense and needs to be revised. That's how I see it, but what do I know, I'm still a noob. :cool:
I guess if you don't mind killing random homeless folk in the hopes it's your enemy. Not very super heroish. Hercules knows his way around a manhole well enough not to hit the wrong person.

[sparks4289]

Manhunter must know where he is if he's psychically linked to Batman. Are we talking game rules here or Justice League cartoons??

I'm not talking about rules at all, I'm just talking about the cartoons, comics, anywhere and anytime batman jumps out of nowhere to save the day and the rest of the JL. He was making the point that batman being a friendly character, he would automatically know where he is at all times. While yes manuhunter would know, and did (in the pilot episode of JL animated series) that doesn't mean everyone in the JL would all the time, simply because hes 'friendly'

[silversurfr77]

i dont think Dr. Doom would mind killing some homeless folks....or Magneto....bad guys. WOW the literal way you guys tear apart each and every word to ransack an argument is astounding.

[Terman8er]

<snip>

Just keep in mind that a close combat attack requires adjacency and does not require Line of Fire.

A range combat attack (among other things) requires Line of Fire.

That is all the difference you really need to know.

You can bunch (a character with stealth in hindering terrain) that guy next to you but you can't shot him.

There is no definitive real-world or cartoon explanation for this so please don't go there.

[bludd72]

Are you kidding? look at how many mechanics have changed over the games life as well as how many new mechanics have been added. In all cases the game improved. Also I hate when people pull the "if you cant deal with it" BS. No one is saying it cant be dealt with, but some of us like the fact that we can offer feedback that may improve overall game play.

actually, im quite serious. not kidding here one bit Slade. and for the record, some of the changes that were made, as you've stated have actually made the game better.....like halving the range on a character using HSS so they can't run and shoot all game for 'fun' :ermm:
THAT is a necessary change imho. changing stealth is not, in any way, necessary.

so saying "deal with it" fits. trust me dude, when i first started playing this game over 8 years ago, i too hated the 'logic' behind stealth. it boggled my mind how i could not 'see' someone RIGHT BESIDE ME. but when i had someone explain it to me in terms of game play, i came around and just accepted it for what it was.

ya wanna know what my only gripe with stealth is? playing someone that likes to WC abuse it and always play the same old tired stealth teams. THAT really takes a dump in my corn flakes.

But how can you be so sure that changing it will in fact make things better? this thread was meant to gauge reaction to an inquiry and my opinion just happens to clash with yours. i couldn't care less. i respect the fact that you and everyone else is entitled to an opinion and i stand by mine. this is how stealth has been from day one and NOW people want change?! :confused:

well, i kinda don't like how outwit is so powerful and to boot, a FREE action. so maybe we should change that too? meh. let me put it this way, if it changes i'll roll with it. simple as that.

and by the way, discounting my opinion and making it sound like those in favor of changing stealth are the only people worth listening to, is kinda arrogant man.

"No one is saying it cant be dealt with, but some of us like the fact that we can offer feedback that may improve overall game play"

whether or not you agree with me, doesn't change the validity of what i have to say. and i happen to say that NOT changing it will make gameplay better than changing it.

one last thing, i don't mean any ill will Slade, i enjoy a debate and i do value your opinion and appreciate the feedback to my post, even if it does come across as you dumping on it. one thing to consider here though. you say it's "BS" when people like me say things like "deal with it", yet i do deal with it every game i play by sending in a bruiser to smash that sneaky little stealther....or PW his/her butt out of stealth.
i don't however, choose to 'deal with it' by changing the rules completely to my liking. you deal your way, i deal my way ;)

[MattMinus]

Hercules knows his way around a manhole well enough...

Just ask Northstar!


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