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AZS
03/06/2003, 07:32
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Welcome to my reviews and thanks for reading.
I’m writing these to start discussions, have some fun, and I hope you will too.
These reviews look at stats, cost, playability and strategy in the context of 200 and 300 pt games. Also, while I have nothing against mixing sets, to make this a little easier, these are only discussed in relation to the Marvel Universe.
Feel free to object or agree with anything! If you have a valid point, I’ll be more than happy to back you up.

Today’s Infinity Challenge character is: Nightmare

Nightmare.
This guy doesn’t get a lot of respect. Why is that? Well for starters, you have to keep him out of reach of small children.
Have you seen his sculpt? They won’t let you take him on an airline because he’s a deadly weapon. Captain Pointy.
But deadly sculpt aside, this guy isn’t half bad a first glance.

He starts with a 14 attack value.
Let me reiterate that for everyone in the back row, he’s got a freakin’ 14 attack value!!!!!!!! That is THE highest starting attack value in the entire game. The whole game. Everyone. Only Thanos has a higher AV, and that’s 3 clicks into his dial!
Let me put it in perspective, with a 14 attack value you would need to roll a critical miss in order to have any chance of missing like 90% of the figures in this game. (*not an actual figure, just a guestimate.). Your opponent has a 17 defense? You need a critical miss not to hit.
Want to take out a Unique Wasp? No prob, you only need a 5. Invisible girl got you down? You only need a 4 to knock her block off.
And its not like the starting attack value is just a one click wonder. His AV stays high for the whole dial. On his 5th click its still a 12. People are impressed unique Wolverine starts with a 12.
Imagine getting rid of the stress of “will I hit or miss?” because you needed a 6 or 7 to hit.
~Gone.
You’re just rolling the dice for fun at this point. Maybe you can get a critical hit. Maybe you can roll knockback to put someone into the wall. But you hardly have to worry about missing.

Nightmare’s other stats are very nice as well. He deals 3 damage for a long 5 clicks, starts with a high 18 defense, and even movement is very good at a consistent 10.

On the surface this guy has a lot going for him so far.

For super powers he doesn’t really shine with incapacitate and Invulnerability, but he does have half a dozen clicks of something rarely seen in IC and CT, Enhancement. This power adds 1 click of damage to ranged attacks (including, but not limited to: EE, Incapacitate, and Mind Control). Basically Enhancement is just like the SHIELD team ability with 2 major differences, it doesn’t cost you an action to use (yay!) but it cannot be used with RCE (boo!).

But here is the real kicker, they gave enhancement to a Melee figure. :confused: Nightmare is only good for close combat, yet he has a super power that specifically only works with ranged combat? Kinda counter intuitive.
There are circumstances where you can put this to use, but they are few and far between. When Nighty is in Close Combat, you can place a ranger one square outside of the target but still in base with Nightmare so the ranger can shoot in. Another option is to use Nightmare with a flier (read: Taxi) with Running Shot. This way the flier can use enhancement while at the same time getting Nightmare into position for melee. There are probably a few other combos, but they’re not coming to me at the moment.

You might wonder why just using Nightmare to boost damage isn’t a suggestion. Well, even before Xplosion announced a bunch of new Enhancement enhanced figures who would be good for this, using Nightmare like that was still not a great idea. Why use a very expensive figure solely to boost the damage of a ranged attacker? Sure you’re saving an action versus using a Shield dude, but even then you could work it out between points and leadership to make that more viable than Nighty. But the biggest reason is that if Nightmare is on your team, you should use him! Use the big attack value and good damage. Use the deep dial and high defenses, don’t just leave him perched on a rooftop helping a ranger and out of combat!

So in the end, 6 clicks of Enhancement ends up being a novelty prize on the character more than an actual useful power. Too bad too, because it has such great strategic advantages.

Enhancement aside, Nightmare also has gobs and gobs of Incapacitate. *Sigh* Ok, I think maybe I’ve reached the end of my ‘incapacitate bashing.’ Yeah, the power probably costs a couple points more than it should for its usefulness. And yeah, it does have some significant, if limited, potential, but that’s not why it such a disappointment to see it on Nightmare’s dial. Its because it is just unnecessary. Its overkill. And what’s worse is that it can only be used in close combat, at a point where ‘Mare is already dealing 3 damage.
There have been occasions while facing figures with Invulnerability when Incapacitating them to push for a click was better than hitting for 3, and 1 gets through. But in nearly all other circumstances dealing the straight 3 damage is going to be better.

So if Enhancement is...difficult, and incapacitate is unnecessary, what else is left? ‘Mare also starts with 3 clicks of Invulnerability and a sustained high defense. This makes him both hard to hit and hard to hurt. Always a good thing. He also has a substantially deep dial of 10 clicks and Steal Energy on the last 2 to help keep him life support. So he’s just all around tough to kill. But not that tough, specifically, he only has 1 mere click of toughness after Invulnerability and then nothing. So if your opponent can hit that continued high defense of 16 (after toughness), then he’ll take damage naturally and burn through the rest of his clicks.

Playing Nightmare; Even though he has a high movement, you should still spend the points to give him a taxi. Why spend all those points on ‘Mare just to have him wander around on the board limited by elevation and hindering terrain when you can fly him up for a same turn beating? So while his 10 movement is nice, it doesn’t help him a whole lot.
If you feel you can keep him from taking significant damage, push him if you need to with full confidence that his stats don’t fall for at least half his dial. But if he’s going to take even minimal damage then be careful, because like mentioned above, after Inv is gone, he can go down hill quickly with just a few hits. Your opponent will have to make a real effort to take him out though, because even without toughness he still has a deep dial, but for 163 points I’m sure he can muster the motivation.

And that cost, 163 points, is the real crux of any discussion about Nightmare. In the end, he’s very useful, very hard to kill and can hit pretty much anyone you want. But, is that worth the price? Maybe, but probably not in tournament play. He’s just too limited and to reliant on his transportation to be really effective. And if your opponent takes him out that’s a huge chunk of points for him and a probably the majority of your team, meaning its very unlikely you could make up those points without him.
In friendly games though, especially high point games, he can certainly be effective and fun to play. Plus your opponent is bound to underestimate him and not realize what he can do if you manage to get him into melee.

But even if you don’t plan on playing him, at least you have the comfort of knowing that he can be put to good use as a very effective back scratcher. *aaaahhhhh*


If you would like to keep up with when these reviews are posted, you can subscribe to the review list thread (linked in my signature). It is updated whenever a new review is posted so you'll never have to hunt around on the board to find the latest post.

Psylockeslover
03/06/2003, 07:41
Another great review on a fun character to play.

I don't use him much sice i usually play for fun and I don't know the charater very well(or at all really), but when i do, he is a real menace.


-edit- Woohoo! first post!

the itsy bit
03/06/2003, 07:54
again no first post for me !!

Oh well at least now I'm second !:p

Nightmare: who is he ?

that's the first question I ask myself when I want to play with a HC Fig.
If I don't know, I don't play him.
except when he's really fun to use like the Controller ! And this is the only exception so far !!

second I don't have him, and I will definately not pursue him !
he has his uses, but just not mine.

Note: enhancement can be used without using an action, So start in base contact with 2 of your own ranged figs (and you boost them both) then move Nightmare to another ranged fig (who also gets boosted !).
this is especially powerfull with figs whom have EE and/or multiple targets.

this is way powerfull in Mageknight so it will be powerfull here too.(see Psylocke)

AZS
03/06/2003, 07:58
the itsy bit, GREAT point about using Enhancement with multiple figs. I'm so hung up on the Shield team ability that can only be used once, that didn't even occur to me!

Even so, 'Mare would still be expensive for that, but with some cheaper Enhancement options coming out with Xpl, I'll have to put that on my list.
Cool!

Random
03/06/2003, 08:02
LORD THANK YOU! I have been trying and trying to find an excuse to use Nightmare. Has anyone ever seen a really good 300 point team with him? Now, after this revue, I really feel that I need to use him, special thanls to itsy, for her advice on enhancement.

dernjg
03/06/2003, 08:29
My local haps is getting ready for a "Surrounded by Rookies" tournament, in which you get 400 points, one unique or vet or exp., and the rest are rookies.
Because of his insane defense, I was itching to use him as my high level character, along with a rookie Fantastic Four and a medic and taxi support unit. Could this work?

the itsy bit
03/06/2003, 08:48
Originally posted by Random
itsy, for HER advice on enhancement.

that really hurts !:p
I now I'm pretty, but don't make me a girl/woman because of it please !

actually it(enhancement) is just a Mageknight ability, so for me it's like 2 years old stuff !

Random
03/06/2003, 08:52
oopps, sorry, my bad! I just have this vision of everyone from your area of the world bieng a pretty woman( also i know a girl here who has the same nickname as your screen name. sorry)

captainspud
03/06/2003, 09:10
I really like Nightmare. I've owned 4 of them over time, because I keep trading them away and then realizing that I still want him! :D

I've only used him a few times, but he was insanely useful throughout. His best showing was when I gave him Doom as a taxi and dropped him in against V Hulk, who quickly withered under the assault of 8 clicks of damage each turn (Doom getting Enhancement, and Nightmare getting Perplex). His remaining figs didn't have the raw damage to take Nightmare down, and he finished off the game on about his 3rd click.

But despite all this, I don't use him a whole lot, simply because, as someone mentioned above, I really have no idea who he is. So it's hard to give him a themed team, because I don't know who his homies are. The closest we've come to a seemingly "realistic" Nightmare team was a pile of Vampire Lackeys.

Melkoloran
03/06/2003, 09:18
I love using Nightmare with TKers. His AV and damage provide a great way to soften up a front line while some of my other hitters bring up the rear to finish them.

AZS
03/06/2003, 09:21
Some nightmare background as best as I know.

He is the lord (of sorts) of the realm of nightmares. He presides over the dream world and is pretty much just an evil guy who keeps trying to influence the waking world. Most recently he popped up in issues of Captain America (of all places) manipulating people into being racist to breed hate and increase his power.
Being a mystical being, he clashes with Dr. Strange a lot (obviously since he's AE with the good doctor), but it is a bit of a stretch to call them Arch Enemies.
Nightmare is only an occasional character in the Marvel U and doesn't have a whole lot of background. There's pretty much no-body in Clix at the moment that you can pair him with to make a really themed team.
Hope my minimal comic knowledge helps.

shin-goji
03/06/2003, 09:27
Nightmare was the first unique I pulled when I bought my first starter pack, I'm attached tothis figure just because of that :)

kevoj5
03/06/2003, 09:35
i have used nightmare in many 300 and 400 point games.he is very good.inticipate is pretty useless but he is great with guys like hman torch taxiing him around.i love havig that high attack value.HAIL NIGHTMARE!!

Mr. Pilkington
03/06/2003, 11:20
While I understand people questioning Nightmare's AE status with Stephen (I questioned it at first too... I mean, what about Dormammu?! [note: I never said "what about Mordo?" 'cause he has always been a chump ;)]) but my father was nice enough to break out some really old school Strange for me to show how much Nightmare screwed with him in the past. The good doctor wasn't usually directly dealing with Nightmare, he was dealing with people and plots manipulated by Nightmare. Now the times when he *did* go toe-to-toe with Nightmare it could get scary (get it? scary nightmare? :D).

Overall I have not used Nightmare as much as I have wanted to. I am kee on trying the Doom/Nightmare pair (I was thinking of that as I read this thread and then saw someone else mention it). If you use Vet Doom you could even use Mastermind to push small hits to Nightmare (why, oh why couldn't they have made E Doom 164 points?). Of course having Vet Doom and Nightmare means 361 points already, and you aren't taking advantage of Doom's wildcard. So I'm thinking 500 points minimum for that pair. Mmmmmm... Nightmare of Doom. I really need to work up a team now!

heylady
03/06/2003, 11:41
Thanks azs, for another review that was a great read. And I hadn't realized Nightmare was so wicked...we've had him forever, but I don't think I've ever played with him...I've just had those "back scratcher" thoughts about him...
Now I'll have to take him out and see what he can do. I need somebody that can't miss, the way my dice have been rolling for me, lately. ;)


Oh, and Itsy? I'll add my thanks to the rest for the tip on Enhancement. That's going to come in handy very soon, I think. :)

de4dp00l
03/06/2003, 11:46
Azs, about Nightmare's enhancement not being useful, since a hovering character can always use ranged combat actions, Nightmare can always Enhance his taxi if they are both BtB with an opponent.

AZS
03/06/2003, 11:52
'P00l, right.

What I had in mind when I wrote that was more in line with my strategy though, and not specific rules.

When I have a flying shooter I like keep him out of Close Combat, but still adjacet to my melee fig so the flier can't be attacked and in case I need a quick evac.

But you are correct, and that is a good point.

Thorgrin
03/06/2003, 11:55
I like playing him from time to time. I usually use him in 500+ games. The best time I've ever had the priveledge of using him AND having it all work is this situation.

Exp Doc Ock, Vet Spidey, Vet Doombot, Exp Ultron with Nightmare behind them.

They were in a semicircle with Ultron and Doombot in the middle and spidey and doc ock flanking. I was EEing with Ultron and Doombot (both using sinister syndicate ability and wailing with 2 point energy explosions) and then incapacitating with Spidey and doing a point of damage and then following up with Doc Ock on the other side hitting anyone facing that way. I actually got to use that combo like 2 times in that game and was devastating the opposition so much that he had to outflank me and concentrate on Nightmare. He didn't fall, though he was really shakey. Luckily I got to run him back for some medical lovin' and then got him into combat, didn't last much after that.

Rare instance, but it can be useful from time to time. Again BIG point battles. The 200-300 point game is not his style. :)

Pip the Troll
03/06/2003, 12:05
great review azs

i like the figure and love his stats
but like u said, hes unfortunatly just not playable..... i know ive tried,
but he is still fun to use and actually does work well agist tanl teams, i just pop him beside the tanl and let him and his high attacl wittle em down

but again theres better and cheaper wasy to do that

great review azs

cheers

gelf13
03/06/2003, 12:44
I'm not sure I'm allowed to post links here but here goes anyway:
http://www.users.xeroanime.com/~handbook/nop/nitemare.htm

A comprehensive Nightmare write up.

Great job Azs. I just got my first nightmare on tuesday(yeee-haaa!) and can't wait to get him out on the track and see what he can do!
Thanks
Gelf

BAKID
03/06/2003, 13:41
I saw Nightmare used very effectively in a 1000pt, no fig under 75, 3 actions/turn tournament a few weeks ago. I still managed to beat the guy (my Dr. Strange killed his Nightmare, which turned the tide) but he was great at helping multiple figs boost their shot all on the same turn.

In normal situations though, I think psylocke will reveal to everybody the true power of enhancement. I wonder what the "support figs that we love to ko" list will look like after explosion? Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, Black Cat, Psylocke, who else?

AZS
03/06/2003, 13:47
Well yeah, in a 1000 pt tournament, pt cost goes out the window as a limiting factor!

But I'm not sure I'd want to play in a 1000 pt tourney. It takes my opponents long enough as is to take 3 actions!

As for your question about Xpl, I think Shadowcat is going to be a holy terror as a taxi with 17 D and super senses. Mistique and Gambit will be great with stealth and Perplex, and undoubtedly people will try and abuse the Con Artist (though it looks like her pimp already abuses her enough as is).

texaswashingto
03/06/2003, 17:43
Word to the Wise: Enchancement CAN'T be used with MC. MC is a non-damaging attack. Enchancement ups damage. If there's no damage (at least a 0 damage like Incap.) then you can't up it. This issue was brought up in the Rules forum and was ruled as such. But it's still a great power!

Thorgrin
03/06/2003, 17:44
Actually they don't go too terribly long. The thing I like about the bigger point tournaments is that you generally limit the actions to say 5 and most of the time that's enough to curb it. Of course not counting avenger's/brotherhood, but at most you'll only get attacked 6 times in one round (with leadership). Or I should say 6 attacking figures. Forgot about flurry for a second. :)

However, with that said, it does generally take the full 45-50min round.

Thorgrin
03/06/2003, 17:47
That is not necessarily true.

Per the FAQ:

"A Mind Control attack will cause one point of critical hit damage if the player rolls a 12 for the successful attack. If the successfully controlled figure is pushed, it takes a click of damage for the push as well. "

It is implied that the attack is reduced to 0. Also, since MC is a ranged attack and Enchancement says you add 1 to the ranged attack, I would probably rule (if I were a judge) that you can enchance MC.

Are there any official rulings on this...?

Originally posted by texaswashingto
Word to the Wise: Enchancement CAN'T be used with MC. MC is a non-damaging attack. Enchancement ups damage. If there's no damage (at least a 0 damage like Incap.) then you can't up it. This issue was brought up in the Rules forum and was ruled as such. But it's still a great power!

melon_head
03/06/2003, 18:05
Enchancement will add a point of damage to MC if and only if a crit hit is rolled. Otherwise MC states it does no damage it is the FAQ on the crit that adds damage and is enhanced. Incap states the damage is reduced to zero and enchancement can increase that to one.

justincredible
03/06/2003, 18:24
my girlfriend ALWAYS uses nightmare.

i think its because he has a pink base.

AZS
03/07/2003, 09:19
I know you can use the Shield team ability to make MC deal a click of damage, regardless of rolling a critical hit. I read Enhancement as doing the same thing.
I'll try to get one of our rules gurus over here to set us straight.

Tsannik
03/07/2003, 09:40
Alrighty...


The only time that Enhancement and SHIELD will work with Mind Control to deliver an extra click of damage is when the attack roll is a critical success (you roll a 12).

Mind Control does NO damage (technically, an undefined Davage value). Ever. It was determined that you cannot Enhance/SHIELD something that cannot do damage. This should be regarded differently than something that does 0 damage.

The only time Mind Control will do damage is when a Critical Success is rolled (you roll a 12). As per the FAQ, this instance Mind Control will do 1 click of damage. That damage then can be Enhanced/SHIELD augmented.

Does this make sense?

AZS
03/07/2003, 09:51
Thanks T.

Boy, I feel foolish. :eek: :(

So, um, how 'bout them Mets?

Mr. Pilkington
03/07/2003, 10:10
Mets? You mean the Metropolis SCU guys? They're DC and they don't even have Enhancement, MC or SHIELD team. They should really be discussed in the DC forum. ;)

[Note to anyone worried about this post: it is in jest and is not meant to belittle any heroclix players, figures or real world sports teams.][Edit: except for LuckyJ... this *is* meant to belittle LuckyJ for some mysterious reason]

LuckyJ
03/07/2003, 10:21
justincredible: y'know...that's just really funny. My favorite color is orange and so I am always fighting a constant urge to use a rookie Black Manta on every team I build.

Enhancement: I like to use enhancement with E/V Human Torch. The extra damage on E human torch really makes him worth playing for the points.

azs: I'm not sure if anyone's ever asked you this before or not, but how good of a player are you? Just wondering if I'm taking advice from some one who wins. :D

Nightmare: I think he's more fun to HAVE than to PLAY.

Mr. P: I feel belittled....don't know why, exactly, but...

AZS
03/07/2003, 10:31
Originally posted by LuckyJ

azs: I'm not sure if anyone's ever asked you this before or not, but how good of a player are you? Just wondering if I'm taking advice from some one who wins. Win? I've never even actually played. I just make this #### up as I go. You were listening to me? I'm sorry.
:p


To really answer, I don't know how good a player I am. I guess the best way to quantify it is: I win more often than I lose.
Hows that?

LuckyJ
03/07/2003, 10:38
:p right back atcha, reviewboy! :)

I win more often than I lose.

Good enough for me!