A 21 Defensive Value: Does any standard figrue deserve it?

[Terman8er]

Is there a standard figure deserving of a 21 DV?

Would a Flash? A Spider-Man? Perhaps Martian Manhuner with his telepathy, super speed and phasing capabilities?

Or Savitar? Black Racer? An Atom?

OK, that's a lot of DC folks, so how about The Runner? Silver Surfer?

Anyone?

[MattMinus]

Superman.


<10char>

[Terman8er]

Superman.


<10char>

I thought about including Superman, Juggernaut and the such (the extremely durable) in the poll but wanted to only deal with the extremely evasive.

[malakim2099]

No.

Next question.

BTW, a "No" should have been a response in your poll.

[mandoman10]

I thought about including Superman, Juggernaut and the such (the extremely durable) in the poll but wanted to only deal with the extremely evasive.

superman gets hit all the time. he can just take a punch without losing much. therefore, he should get low defensive numbers and super high damage reducers.

[PlotDeviceLad]

There should be a "none" option.

I vote for the little people - Atoms, Dwarfstar (who I want made soon).

They need to make an Atom for the next DC set, repaint the sculpt for another figure - Dwarfstar.

EDIT: Choi for the LE!

[Terman8er]

No.

Next question.

BTW, a "No" should have been a response in your poll.

Perhaps you missed the option detailed as "Other" which then asked for details.

[Terman8er]

superman gets hit all the time. he can just take a punch without losing much. therefore, he should get low defensive numbers and super high damage reducers.

Defensive Values do not only represent ones ability to evade/dodge an attack. If it did the Blob would get a 4 :d-normal: and the Juggernaut would get a 5 :d-indomitable:, give Chemo a 1 :d-normal:.

[CarlosMucha]

Yes: an Invisible character, REALLY small with Hyper sonic speed and cosmic power deserve 21 Defense.

[Space Jawa]

As a standard value? No, not really.

After having Combat Reflexes or ES/D taken into account? Sure, I could see some characters being subject to reaching a 21.

[malakim2099]

Perhaps you missed the option detailed as "Other" which then asked for details.

Other, implies that there is one that I think deserves a 21 DV. :)

[pokolo]

Squirrel Girl

[commandercool]

I guess that depends on whether you're talking in gameplay terms or in "strictly comics accurate" terms. Which is to say, the Flash probably deserves a 21 (or 25) defense in the same way that the Flash probably deserves 400,000,000 speed. In gameplay terms though I'd rather not see it. 20 is a lot, and beyond that I think the functionality of the game starts to get kind of muddied.

[Terman8er]

I guess that depends on whether you're talking in gameplay terms or in "strictly comics accurate" terms. Which is to say, the Flash probably deserves a 21 (or 25) defense in the same way that the Flash probably deserves 400,000,000 speed. In gameplay terms though I'd rather not see it. 20 is a lot, and beyond that I think the functionality of the game starts to get kind of muddied.

I agree, with the most part, but with the apparent rise in base DV's (a lot more opening click 18's are showing up) I think a 21 may be warranted.

[brevard321]

I would think that no number is COMPLETELY off limits in Heroclix.

I could see a 21 defense on several of those characters and more, but not as on the starting click or second click if at all possible.

I'd love to see more single-based EVENT characters, such as an unbeatable Hulk, but which can only be played as a scenario or something.

A 500 point Hulk with 7 natural damage, 14 attack, 21 defense, and 15 speed value would be fun to play against, especially in a multi-player game where everyone else is using SHIELD troopers and Avengers to stop the rampaging Hulk.

We need more EVENT-type figures! Think of a single-based Thanos with powers and numbers like Galactus. :)

[larthosgrr8]

EVEN GALACTUS DOESN'T DESERVE A 21!! he's huge!! who misses on him. no regular figure deserves that kind of dv. why?? all of the ppl on the list have been beat up before. so i think all of them should be hittable without needing crit hits!

the game will go in a very bad way when you see a 21 dv on someone. even barry allen can be caught and beat, atom squished, invisible woman seen and punched! that would be the worst idea! might as well give superman a power that says,'when superman hits with a close combat attack, this figure is ko'd and removed from the board'.

[HapPolnareff]

The bias towards Barry disturbs me.
Wally, if you were to pick a Flash.
To pick any other character there? MMH.

Other?
A Standard Spectre figure.
Probably a Yellow-Sun saturated Supes.
Odin-Force Thor?

[HapPolnareff]

EVEN GALACTUS DOESN'T DESERVE A 21!! he's huge!! who misses on him. no regular figure deserves that kind of dv. why?? all of the ppl on the list have been beat up before. so i think all of them should be hittable without needing crit hits!

the game will go in a very bad way when you see a 21 dv on someone. even barry allen can be caught and beat, atom squished, invisible woman seen and punched! that would be the worst idea! might as well give superman a power that says,'when superman hits with a close combat attack, this figure is ko'd and removed from the board'.I always figured high defenses were for different reasons.
Size, speed, durability in Galactus' case.
Being able to hit him just the right way to even cause a scratch.

[thebigZZZZZ]

Brainiac 5!!! he deserves it...smartest and wears a force field that is quite impenetrable! and cannot be outwitted!

[VGA d1sc1pL3]

I voted for "Other" since there was a "None" option.

[Wolf_Otaku]

Also voted "Other" to represent None.

[commandercool]

I agree, with the most part, but with the apparent rise in base DV's (a lot more opening click 18's are showing up) I think a 21 may be warranted.

Yeah, I hope they're at least playtesting it. Maybe it wouldn't be that much of a stretch in practice, and the only way to find out is to play a bunch of games with some concept dials with 21 defenses. But in practice I think it's probably best avoided.

[r2fu2]

Only if they go back to some 13 - 15 attack values, so uh no!

[Gabellius]

Definitely Invisible Woman. Even if you can find her, you have to get past her force fields.

[Thunderclese]

Helz no.

19 is plenty ridiculous as it is.

[Noah Towns]

superman I guess.

[Nightcrawler25]

Nightcrawler Baby!

[spike1138]

I'm not keen on seeing it as a base value. Add in ES/D and/or CR? Mmmmmmmmaybe but I honestly wouldn't know which fig would warrant that value.

[Pfligman]

I chose other. Other meaning no.

[Terman8er]

I'm not keen on seeing it as a base value. Add in ES/D and/or CR? Mmmmmmmmaybe but I honestly wouldn't know which fig would warrant that value.

Currently only Black Flash has a 19:d-normal: & ES/D on the same (opening) click.

I could see those "embodiments" of death (Black Racer for example) getting a natural 21:d-normal:.

[UndeadEnigma]

Other meaning "No"

[Matthevv]

I vote Other and no.

[Nitecralwer24]

spider-man should have what the current one has (super-de-duper-senses) but it shouldn't be a trait, mysterio and green goblin as well as the symbiotes have all gotten around it, so make it outwitable. i voted for the invisible woman. she isn't only invisible from a distance/in a bush. an uber-high defense value could represent a ripple of air that an opponent can blast away at, but will never hit.

[JoeGualtieri]

Silver Age Superman.

[Sharkbite]

Put me down as another of the "Other (meaning none)"

21:d-normal:+3 modify is 24, meaning that characters need a 13:a-fist: to have a chance to hit on anything less than a crit. That essentially renders the :a-fist:s irrelevant, making the 6:a-fist: Golden Age generic just as likely to hit as [insert whoever's attack you respect].

With special powers, characters who should be able to evade well are able to be represented in ways that are more functional to the game. Spidey Senses evade on 4+, combined with an 18:d-normal:, gives Spidey great odds of dodging while still allowing the attacking characters to be accurately presented as well. Sue's Invisibility making her unable to be targetted by long range attacks is perfect; she's invisible. Not being seen = not being attacked; those close enough to see the shimmer from her force walls, watch her footsteps or hear her motion can still try, and the 18:d-normal: makes it rough, but things like being caught in a Pulse Wave still need to take her out, which won't happen with those rediculous :d-normal:s.

21:d-normal: is just too much unless 13:a-fist: starts being a norm. 18s and 19s are rough enough.

[jak7890]

Put me down as another of the "Other (meaning none)"

21:d-normal:+3 modify is 24, meaning that characters need a 13:a-fist: to have a chance to hit on anything less than a crit. That essentially renders the :a-fist:s irrelevant, making the 6:a-fist: Golden Age generic just as likely to hit as [insert whoever's attack you respect].

With special powers, characters who should be able to evade well are able to be represented in ways that are more functional to the game. Spidey Senses evade on 4+, combined with an 18:d-normal:, gives Spidey great odds of dodging while still allowing the attacking characters to be accurately presented as well. Sue's Invisibility making her unable to be targetted by long range attacks is perfect; she's invisible. Not being seen = not being attacked; those close enough to see the shimmer from her force walls, watch her footsteps or hear her motion can still try, and the 18:d-normal: makes it rough, but things like being caught in a Pulse Wave still need to take her out, which won't happen with those rediculous :d-normal:s.

21:d-normal: is just too much unless 13:a-fist: starts being a norm. 18s and 19s are rough enough.

I agree with all of this.

But if I have to choose I would go with the Spectre. I mean, if we're playing fanboy I may as well go with my favorite too, right?

[dengar69]

there was not a 'no' so i went othe. Power creep bad enough already!

[red king]

I vote Other and no.

^this^! Next time you need a "no" option.

[Superclone]

No

<filler>

[oddfellow]

I'd have voted the 'none' option (if there was one). 21 starts putting us in the unhittable range what with perplexes, etc.

[El Poolman]

El Chapulin Colorado with his Pastillas de Chiquitolina!!!

Seriously, Silver Surfer.
He can stand inside a Super Nova.

[MaxFortune]

Judomaster (if they ever make a 'Clix of her) - literally no one can hit her.

[Grumpygoat]

Conceivably, but any character that needs a 9 or better to hit for someone with a 12 attack is a problem. More so when you factor in a Perplexed up defense. If the 21 defense click has no defensive powers, maybe. And when I say no defensive powers, I mean lots of things: Damage reducers, evasive powers, Hypersonic Speed, Stealth, Perplex, and so on and so forth. Nothing that can give the character a defensive boost. Basically, the figure needs to be a sitting duck. Additionally, the figure should cost a hefty chunk of change, points-wise. No figure below 200 points, or probably not even that, should have a 21 defense.

And who the character is doesn't friggin' matter. Any number of characters can be justified as having a ridiculously high defense. However, it's pretty hard to justify a version of the Atom that exceeds 200 points. And most characters are probably better off with a 19 defense and some sort of defensive power.

[ravenheart110]

I would give a 21 defense to Superman, Thor and Hulk

[I Am The Game]

I can picture it on support figures like the Watcher or Aquarian, but it would ruin the game on combat pieces.

[Wombatboy]

I voted "Other" but there really should have been a choice for "None."

[Clixjunkie]

None deserve a natural 21 Def.

The power creep in this game is already bad enough. This will just increase it. As soon as one standard character gets it, it will open the flood gates of "If this character deserves a 21 then surely this other character deserves a 21.... blah blah blah."

Just look and see how 18 has almost become the standard def # over the past couple of sets.

[Buldozer]

Shield Golem!

[magicmarvel]

Antman or wasp should get the 21 defence value.

[ben138]

No.

Next question.

BTW, a "No" should have been a response in your poll.

yeah, this.

How about a trait that gives you an automatic win?

[First Lensman]

The Hulk

He should have an 11 click dial. One mid-dial click (#6) of 21 surrounded by one click of 20 on each side.

BUT, it would be better if he had a rage counter put on him via a trait. Everytime he's attacked, put a rage counter on him. For every three rage counters add 1 to his defense (rule of three applies). If he is not attacked during your opponent's turn, roll a 1d6; on a result of 1-4, remove 1 rage counter; on a result of 5-6, remove 2 rage counters.

[Hellfire117]

I don't think so. I'll get flak, but maybe on an all out vet Brainiac.

[pg3wg]

Lots of complaints about power creep but look at all the people who want a 21 defense. This shouldn't happen on any non-colossal figure. I also believe that none should have been an option in your poll. "other" isn't straight forward enough

[VikingRS]

I voted other = NO!

Just look at Cosmic Spidey. That b@$t&%d is hard enough to hit as it is!

[DKowGawd]

I think high natural defense shows how hard it is to hit a character, not how tough they are. Invisible, super fast, super small. I think some characters could deserve it, "ultimate veteran" representation, do we need it in the game? Not really...

[The7ofDiamonds]

I voted other.

From a gameplay perspective: No.
From a comic accurate perspective: No.

[NeoShazam]

Voted for Other meaning "no".

Game balance and avoiding negative play experiences is more important to me than giving 21 defense.

[flashshello]

Gotta give it to some of the fastest people in both universes: Barry (probably the Greatest speedster of them all), and Silver Surfer.

[DaeRave]

I put other.
But I meant no.

[The7ofDiamonds]

I guess that depends on whether you're talking in gameplay terms or in "strictly comics accurate" terms. Which is to say, the Flash probably deserves a 21 (or 25) defense in the same way that the Flash probably deserves 400,000,000 speed. In gameplay terms though I'd rather not see it. 20 is a lot, and beyond that I think the functionality of the game starts to get kind of muddied.

lol.

(filler)

[larthosgrr8]

I agree with all of this.

But if I have to choose I would go with the Spectre. I mean, if we're playing fanboy I may as well go with my favorite too, right?

the spectre got punked in blackest night, and in the latest green lantern issue. i always though a high defense was showing how hard it is to hit/get a shot on someone. no superman or hulk deserves such defense. as much as i love the invisible woman, she drops her stealth once the fight starts, and is usually taken down.

[Biplane]

The only character I can think of that would come close to that would be Kitty Pride, after they made Nightcrawler such that I'm ashamed to play him, I'd rather they didn't give Kitty the same "GRAAH! BROKEN!" treatment.

And a 21 defense would make my clix with REV rings even more sad.

[1clickbraindmg]

I also voted "Other" for "No."

As others have pointed out, it just skews the Attack/Defense ratio too terribly. (I, too, have had a terrible time hitting the now-standard 18. 20 is just redonkulus, no matter how much I may love my favorite characters.)

[Shellhead's Pal]

Cast my vote for "No" too! Yikes!

[Grumpygoat]

The only character I can think of that would come close to that would be Kitty Pride, after they made Nightcrawler such that I'm ashamed to play him, I'd rather they didn't give Kitty the same "GRAAH! BROKEN!" treatment.

And a 21 defense would make my clix with REV rings even more sad.

...Kitty Pryde? There are great heaping gobs of people who can do what Kitty Pryde can, only with more. The Martian Manhunter. Johnny Sorrow. Any ghost type of character, or spirit - the Gentleman Ghost, Deadman, what have you. As high defense characters go, Kitty's about mid-tier, rather than top-tier.

[Fausto]

None !!

Someone mentioned yes as event dials, I may say yes to that.

Best,
F

[disguy]

Just remember a 21 can become a 24 via perplexes / other modifiers.

The highest attack value that I would consider to be average is 10.

Unmodified that means that you need a 10-12 roll to hit.
If it gets modified to 24 you can only hit on Boxcars.
And most likely whoever gets a 21 defense isn't going to have toughness. So then you also have to do 3+ damage and hope he doesn't make an impervious roll.

[jackstar7]

Other = No.

[Bubblehead]

I voted Other because I think it'd be great on Quasar.


My reasoning: He's my favorite character not made in "Modern Age". Also, he'd have Shape Change and Super Senses and Impervious.


Oh wait. This isn't a fantasy fanboy dial?

In that case, Other = no one. No one deserves a 21 barring Infinity or Eternity or Eon/Epoch or Oblivion (basically a Cosmic Abstract that will never be made).

[sphin]

If Stardust gets a 21 Defense then Beta Ray Bill should have a 30 Attack*. :p

*See Stormbreaker: The Saga of Beta Ray Bill for details. Bill has no trouble pounding on Stardust, just a difficulty in getting he/she/it to stay down.

[Clclix]

Other as in none.

[Ikoma Hivis]

No
Non
Nej
Nee
Nein
Nr
Нет
פלסטיני
Não
ไม่มี
Never

That's the closest I can come to showing how vehemently I feel that won't get me banned from this forum.

[spider_ham]

A 21 DV might be realistic on an ultimate version of The Hulk or Superman, and only with Toughness or no damage reducers at all. Ant-Man, The Atom, and Wasp are the three characters that come to mind that are naturally hard to hit (when small), but a natural 20 would be the absolute limit.

My argument against a 20+ DV on Invisible Woman is that Sue has to be actively using her powers to become "Impervious" to most attacks. An 18-19 with Defend is acceptable. Jakeem Thunder is an anomaly, since was a relatively new/inexperienced character at the time he was made into clix form, and probably not deserving of a 19 DV + Defend (I won't complain, though).

Given that there are only a handful of non-powered characters that have high AVs to represent a skillset/proficiency (Captain America, Bullseye, Green Arrow, Hawkeye), it's fine that the majority of characters won't be able to hit a 20+ DV without some sort of enhancement.

[Magneticlaw]

I would say that no figure should ever get a natural 21 defense for game balance purposes. Think about it, a 21 could very easily become a 24, which is beyond ridiculous to hit - SuperNova Thanos would need an 11 to hit it! Remembering that for a 9 AV to hit a 16 DEF, you just need an average roll of 7, but that same 9 AV needs a crit to hit the 21. Even the extremely rare 13 AV needs an above-average roll to hit the 21, when most other hits are almost guaranteed. You don't need to be a mathematician to see the potential problems here.

[ThwartHog]

Surfer.........

[combatninja]

Other, as in none.

[flatmatt]

Depends what you mean by "deserve." Sure, it would be accurate for the Flashes to have a 21 defense. Should they? No, it would unbalance the game, especially in their case since they're already hard enough to catch with their HSS.

[Thrumble Funk]

Other, implies that there is one that I think deserves a 21 DV. :)

Agreed.

Oh, and NO. 19 should be the high end for standard figures, and should be given out sparingly, IMO.

[Thrumble Funk]

Also, I think evasiveness can be easily represented by special powers.

WoS Spider-Man's trait (Super Senses on a 4-6) is a perfect example.

[WarHULK]

I'm not a fan of giving a standard character higher than a base 20 defense in general. I don't think getting a higher defense through powers is bad, however.

[Owlman]

I think that we should get pieces with 21 defense and either the JSA or the Defenders team ability. They should also have a special power granting +2 perplex, allowing folks to exploit Brilliant Tactician and piss everyone off at tournaments.

Then again, I enjoy driving people insane, so I would want something like that. Realistically, only an opponent with an extremely evasive set of powers in comics should have such a high defense, imo, and I can't think of any that really need to ahve a natural 21.

[Terman8er]

So, a character a w/19:d-normal: and ES/D or CR is acceptable but a natural 21 isn't.

Mainly, I presume, due to ES/D or CR being Outwittable/Outsiderable while a natural 21:d-normal: is only vulnerable to Perplex, Hydra and Police?

So if a character sporting a 10:a-fist: wanted to hit a 21:d-normal: said character would need an 11 right?

Well, as someone said that 21 can "easily" become a 24 thus that 11 becomes a 14. YIKES!

But what about the attacker getting some help?

Hydra/Police (x3) = 24-3 or 21
Perplex (x3) = 10+3 or 13

13 to a 21 is only an 8, just above "average" right?

I just think a 21 is coming...and justifiably so, IMHO.

After all with the rampant rise in 18:d-normal: (more and more on that opening click too) I just think the natural evolution of clix will lead us there.

[Sharkbite]

So, a character a w/19:d-normal: and ES/D or CR is acceptable but a natural 21 isn't.

Mainly, I presume, due to ES/D or CR being Outwittable/Outsiderable while a natural 21:d-normal: is only vulnerable to Perplex, Hydra and Police?

Not just the Outwit option, but also because those can be negated without having to load your team with support figures. 19:d-normal: +ESD is 19:d-normal: to close combat, and any team can be able to base a figure. 19:d-normal: + CR is 21 in close combat, but can still be shot at range (which even an all 0:bolt: team is bound to at least have one Super Strength brick who could throw an object to knock them off that click).

A natural 21:d-normal: also permits other defensive powers to be on that same click, while CR or ESD would block that. 21:d-normal: + Impervious would mean that the average 10:a-fist: character has a 1/18 chance of hitting for damage, and that damage is -2. How about the 21:d-normal: that has ESD or CR? They've got a natural 23:d-normal: without the assistance of any support peices.

My biggest beef with it, however, has nothing to do with how much it would suck to fight against that figure. It's the general downward spiral that happens on "requires a crit to hit". There's no point in fielding Superman/Batman/Spiderman when they require a crit; they're too expensive, so it's time to break out an army of Liam Harpers and let the law of averages go to work. It's a real deterioration of gameplay.

Much like how the Modern Age figures obsoleted so much of the Golden Age figures by the new dial designs (shorter dials but more consistant numbers, rather than the old falling wounded dials), a substantial adjustment of the dial numbers would obsolete much of our Modern Age stuff, putting us back at step one all over again for team-building. I did not enjoy watching half my collection get put to rest, and I don't want to see that happen again.

I'm not arguing whether or not it's the "natural evolution of clix". Your poll was not a question of whether or not we thought it would happen, but rather which character we thought "deserved" it. We None-voters believe that extremely evasive or durable figures could be much more accurately represented with special powers than with a high :d-normal: number that blankets all attacking options.

[Grumpygoat]

Combat Reflexes and Energy Shield/Deflection also apply to the rule of 3. A character with Energy Shield/Deflection in hindering terrain gains no benefit from Perplex.

Trying to equate a 21 defense with a 19 defense with Energy Shield/Deflection or Combat Reflexes reflects a severe lack of game comprehension. There's a substantial difference between the two that extends beyond just Outwit.

[Mighty Gojira]

Scott Free/Mr. Miracle

[Wombatboy]

Combat Reflexes and Energy Shield/Deflection also apply to the rule of 3. A character with Energy Shield/Deflection in hindering terrain gains no benefit from Perplex.

A character with ESD in hindering WOULD get a benefit from Perplex if someone attacked him with a close combat attack, but versus ranged attacks the rule of 3 would apply, yes.