Puny Captain America

[Shield1776]

It will be pretty apparent after anyone reads this that I am a devoted Cap fan but here goes nothing....

I know everyone complains about their favorite hero/villian being too underpowered, but I think I might have a point on Cap. Cap is supposed to be more athletic than any olympic athlete (and never gets tired), has trained on every form of self defense known to man (for years), has been shown in the comics as a guy that jumps from his motrcycle into a tree, or ground to groound over 10 foot walls. he was recently shown lighting a Zippo by throwing his shield across his apartment and hitting it, then closing the Zippo in the same way (the same way you and I would casually toss playing cards into a garbage can because we are bored.

My point is, Cap should have leap/climb at some point, either ranged or close combat expert. it seems a little strange to me that Batman can claim the title of close combat expert when Cap is described as the ultimate fighting machine. Yes, I know they are in two different universes but from my understanding, Cap is Batman's counterpart in the Marvel universe, yet Batman is worth twice as much as Cap. Batman is really just a guy with a tool belt when you get down to it. If not CCE, the shield example I just used should count for RCE. Just anything would be nice!!!

I do love HC and have bought just about every figure out there, but it is really frustrating using Cap as an overpowered Kingpin when that is not what he is like in the comics. At the very least, if he is not rereleased Elektra style, at least another unique would be nice. This is one of the top 3-4 characters in Marvel and he is not worth the points.

Lastly, is anyone really looking at the relation of points between figures? I understand there will be a 160 Elektra? 160 points on a girl that died? 62 points on the leader of the Marvel world. Not buying that....

Am I alone in my thinking here?

[DTM]

I agree with ya 100%. :)

[Kris]

Puny Captain America... Trix are for kids!

[A_Higher_Level]

Well... Capt America may not be the most poerful person clickwise, but in those long games where everyone gets weaker, he comes out with both toughness and Outwit. Effectively turning the tide towards the end of the battle. Also, no one in Marvel will have CCE. It's a DC only ability (similar to how no one in DC has BCF).

Hopefully they'll make a more expesive version to accurately depict him at a later stage in life.

[Shield1776]

Thanks for the Harrumph!!!

A friend of mine sent me this quote...

"In case your curious the Marvel Encyclopedia ranks Cap's fighting skill at a 7 while Elektra's is a 6."

Now if HC is coming out with a 160 point Elektra than what should Cap be?

I also think Hercules 83 points is pretty low.

[onew0rd]

I agree. Although I don't think he should cost in the 100s like E:Assassin (because that was a wacky comic that snuck into continuity somehow). He at veteran should have the following to make him playable:

Movement is OK. Leap Climb is a little much IMO.

Attack: 12. He should NEVER miss. He is as agile and athletic as they come and giving him a lower attack than wolverine or elektra is criminal.

Defense: 19. The guy should not have ES/D or toughness or any other power but he should never get hit by anyone but the most combat savvy of characters. This high defense would more accurately represent his shield than ES/D. It may seem like much when you compare him to spiderman or the likes but spidey got the shaft as well so we won't go there. First 3 clicks defend. Wh better way to represent ppl hiding behind the shield. This alone would make him ultra playable (as it should be dammit!)

Damage is fine. He should never be able to hurt a character with Inv. and leadership is perfect.

Range of 6 with multiple attacks. This would reflect the shield bouncing trick. He should definitely have had multiple attacks for ranged.

Last clicks with toughness and outwit is cool and should stay.

[mastafish]

I think you are totally right, Cap had to fight Red Skull with both eyes closed! that at least deserves a Close Combat Expert!

[Captain_lint]

I agree with you 1000% that they really need to make a more beefed up version of Cap...But your statement about his current pieces, OMG!!!! The experienced Cap is by far one of my most used figs. Stealth and a range of 6, avengers free move, leadership, Energy sheild to make him even harder to hit with range if the stealth wasnt enough, and in the end, he can be used as an outwit piece oh, and leadership...all for less than 50 points....I'm sorry, I just love that guy.:)

[vikes4now]

Can't possibly express how much I want to see a beefed up Cap. I'm not nearly as big a fan of Cap as I am of certain other characters, but I sincerely feel he got robbed, in a big, bad way, when he was converted to being a heroclick.

There are, as I'm sure, far too many versions of Elektra out there already, and compared to her, or logan or even sabertooth, Cap is underpowered by half of what he should be.

Whizkids have crossed abilities from DC to Marvel before (poison, etc.), it just makes sense that they could do it with a new cap.

[Shield1776]

thanks for all the support guys (and maybe girls since i don't really know any of you).

I held off for a long time thinking I was whining about this piece, but now I feel little better about it.

Everybody is going to have a different opinion and I know that. I thought I had a couple points to make and it seems as if some of you agree.

I think it would be immensely cool if you could mail away to have HC make a piece to the specifications the player desires. Since HC is just as fallable as we are, why not design your own pieces?
I'd pay extra to be able to have them put a dial on my figure.

I have seen the dial maker site and it is cool except for one thing... it does not give you a point total for the values you plug in. I can estimate, but it would be a cool day in the hood if it would add it up for you...

Just a couple of thoughts....

As far as Cap not being able to ever hurt invulnerable figures, I disagree. Cap has a pointed object (the edge of the shield) that is the hardest metal on earth and beyond. Maybe he shouldn't be doing Doomsday damage, but to tell me that he can't hurt someone after hitting them with that shield may be a little much to take. If not a 3 damage or some kind of expert, maybe he should start with outwit.

OK, the experienced Cap is actually worth the points. My bad on that one. I was talking about the Veteren Cap...

[newhorizon]

I actually re-worked Cap's dial for my in house games, and, in my opinion, he is far more realistic.

8 8 8 8 8 7 7 6 5
10 10 9 8 8 8 7 5
16 15 15 14 14 13 11 9 8
2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1

The whole key is the willpower; representing Cap's belief in his cause. This allows the Captain to get close and whip that shield. He also has two arrows, and a range of 6 to really piss of that Firelord fellow.

This version is far more dangerous than the previously released versions. However, I actually do like the official E Captain, as a matter of fact, I use him all the time.

[Shield1776]

I have gone to retardog's heroclix point formula and warlock's and they are way different than each other. Warlock shows his closeness to the real clix but retardog's says his are better but provides no examples. Anyone try either one? I have put together the Ultimate Cap on the dial maker, but I have no idea if my point total is even close for what i put on my "custom" Cap.

[Retardog]

You can get the data from my point formula at www.brotherhoodofthefin.com/retardog/index.html

It's in the Formula section. There you'll find the formula, plus all the proofs that the formula is derived from, as well as the data collected from Warlock's formula. If you're interested in looking at how the data was gathered and a comparison of the two formulae, then check out the "New Point Formula?" thread in the Artisan's guild.

If you're only interested in what the values for Cap are with each formula, he comes out to:

Real Cost R: 41 E: 47 V: 62 U: 35
Warlock R: 36 E: 39 V: 58 U: 30
Retardog R: 39 E:44 V:57 U:29

Hope that helps. If you've got any other questions, I'm always available to answer them.

[Clark-br]

Shield1776
I totally agree with you, Cap is meant to be Marvel's greatest fighter, but his Clix version is not good enough. Since they already made better versions of Spidey, Daredevil and Hulk, maybe we can wait for tougher Cap. I believe higher attack, two targets, willpower and RCE or CCE would be perfect for him.

[Billy Jack]

I love cap, no not in that way. Seriously he needs a redo, however i was thinking of something off the wall. flucuate his dial a little. Keep the leadership and stealth the first two clix, make him a shield throwing machine midway threw with rce, and than finally drop the rce and substitute flurry and outwit. It can be used on his last dial to stimulate the never say die cap spirit that may lead to victory.
Oh i think Cap is still useful in low powered games, but the higher point figures are slowly edging him out. I am grateful however that any version of Cap is in this game.

[imafineboy]

Cap is my absolute favorite character in comic books. I like his E version but i'd still like to see a good redo. his movement is fine. Charge and stealth are good ideas. Although he is one in the comics CCE is unessary. I think 2 all the way down for damage is right. The trouble i see is he shjould have lots of the defense and damage powers. Perplex is a good idea for cap along with his outwit afterwards. Its really a tossup for me between an 18 defense and ES/D and a 19 defense with defend, both sound good, maybe a clik or two of both. And DEFINATELY willpower. I can't think of anyone else who deserves it more then him. I'm tired of leadership too. All his other versions have it, so why not get one where he is working solo? He's been a soldier as well as a leader. I think 2 arrows isn't nessary, what about EE? when he throws his shield its into a group of people to be effective. I think a few cliks of it isn't unreasonable. His attack needs to be higher above all, 11 or maybe even a 12 isn't too far fetched. No mater what though he needs a few clix of 10 or greater. range of 6 like he has now is good, and he shouldn't cost more then he does now, if not cost a little less.

[Billy Jack]

imafineboy, good call on the ee representing caps shield throwing. I wouldn't have thought of that originally but now it sounds kinda kewl. Especially since caps shield is invulnerable and can bypass imprevious. real good call.
Another way to go is too divide cap in two uniques one a close combat brawler, the other a ranged attacker. One route though is that wk has to becareful and not make him a copy of Batman. Just my imo and i think the ee would be a differentiating factor.

[Shield1776]

First of all, thanks Retardog. Now I feel really stupid for not finding it.

I have come up with my own custom Cap and given him CCE and RCE on different parts of the dial for one click apiece. I also gave him leap/climb and willpower. He still have most of the other powers and is now well over 100 points on both of your formulas. I think yours is closer, but I'm a little unsure about how close I am. It seems as if the higher the point total the further you guys diverge. Are there any glaring weak points in either of your formulas that you are not rock solid on?

By the way, I think your formula matches more what I thought it should be.

[Grinner]

While I do agree that Cap does need some touch-ups, I cannot support the idea of RCE. Cap's shield doesn't hit harder when he throws it than when he bashes someone in the face with it. That's what RCE does. CCE would make sense by the same train of logic - getting hit by the shield with Cap's weight & strength behind it would hurt more than having that same shield bounce off your skull halfway across the room.

[Shield1776]

While I understand your rationale for your RCE comment, I disagree. A man that can "pick his spot" effortlessly will choose a weak area on the target thereby doing more damage. If lighting a Zippo without even knocking off the table is not ranged combat expert, I'm not sure what is. It seems to me that the hardest edged weapon in existance would cause a dent even on Ultron if it is thrown at a pinpointed spot. I'm not saying I am right under the HC rules, but that is what it means to me and once in a while I think I make sense.

One could argue that Cap would not be a CCE either because just because he knows how to box well and the other guy doesn't does not make Cap do more damage, just make him better to hit. Again, my argument would be that a boxer will know how to get inside someone's defenses and therefore will hit a weak spot and cause more damage.

I do appreciate the harrumph on the touch up comment so thanks for responding.

[Shield1776]

Hey Retardog, on your powers list for Super Strength, the line says, (Average for clicks with SS)/Highest Damage Value +1).

Does that mean, add up all the "fighting" clicks with SS, average them, divide by highest damage value +1, and then times the number of clicks it is on the dial?

Same question for Energy deflection.

[CowboyBebop]

I think he is a great fig, but only 2 damage. He carries an adamantium shield. He should be able to hurt anyone with that shield with a higher damage or close/ranged combat expert.

[Grinner]

Originally posted by Shield1776
While I understand your rationale for your RCE comment, I disagree. A man that can "pick his spot" effortlessly will choose a weak area on the target thereby doing more damage. If lighting a Zippo without even knocking off the table is not ranged combat expert, I'm not sure what is. It seems to me that the hardest edged weapon in existance would cause a dent even on Ultron if it is thrown at a pinpointed spot. I'm not saying I am right under the HC rules, but that is what it means to me and once in a while I think I make sense.

I think we'll agree to disagree on the RCE. I see the Zippo as a high attack value rather than doing more damage.

Originally posted by Shield1776
One could argue that Cap would not be a CCE either because just because he knows how to box well and the other guy doesn't does not make Cap do more damage, just make him better to hit.

Then one would not have experience with boxers, wrestlers or martial artists. ;) Personally, if I had to be hit (one free shot on me by my opponent) I'd much rather have a non-trained big muscled guy hit me than a well trained not-as-big guy hit me. Much as you yourself said.

I think Billy Jack hit on one of the problems with a Cap redo, and that's representing him well without making him into a Batman clone.

[insight]

My favorite incarnation of Cap would:

Start with:
Running Shot
Defend
Leadership
Attack 11
Defense at 17

The Avengers rush into battle with Cap assessing the situation. He keeps his team safe, and plays it close to the vest while he analyzes the enemy. He targets key threats.

Switch to for a few clicks:
Defend
Support
Attack and Defense dropping

As the battle grinds on, he inspires and motivates his teammates, bringing out the best in them. He keeps them functioning as a unit. He is the ultimate team player.

Finally a couple clicks of:
Charge
Willpower
Outwit or CCE
Attack back to 11
highest damage total

The Avengers are down. Failure is staring Cap in the face. This is where Cap shines. More than any other character in the marvel universe he can pull victory from defeat. He is the last man standing, he will find a way to succeed or die trying.

[Shield1776]

If Cap does not get a CCE or RCE I think I could live with a version that had a 12 attack, 2 damage and outwit, so he can hurt someone with invulernable or impervious. Not being able to do anything with those powers is dissapointing.

[onew0rd]

I don't think cap ever has hurt many people with Inv/Imp. In a fight I saw him on Hulk's back wailing away with his shield and hulk just tosses him off. But cap flip/jump/tumbles to his feet and chucks his shield with no effect. Outwit to start is not warranted. At the end of the dial it's fits better. I also don't see perplex, RCE, or CCE. He should only do 2 damage for all clicks but be hard to hit and rarely miss. 12 attack to start never lower than 8-9. 18 defense (+ Defend) EE I can see. Instead of the two attacks, although I'd rather the 2 attacks because splash damage from EE could potentially affect friendly figs.

[razorramon31]

I feel you man!
this is my version of Veteran Cap:

RS8 L/C8 L/C7 L/C7 S6 S6 S5 CH5
12 10 8 8 7 7 6 8
E/D17 E/D17 E/D16 E/D16 E/D15 T14 T13 T13
L2 L2 L2 L2 L2 O2 O2 O2
key:
RS-Running Shot
L/C-Leaoing/Climbing
S-Stealth
CH-Charge
E/D-Energy/Shield Deflection
T-Toughness
L-Leadership
O-Outwit
I like the original concepts just needed to be combined and "beefed" up. I was thinking of adding the 2 targets at 6 areas but that's pretty far perhaps 2 targets at 4 but Cap has better range than that. For that reason I gave him Running Shot. As a soldier and acrobat I gave him leaping and Climbing and Stealth and finally the "last charge" of a good soldier when all hope is gone. Enegy deflection because of his throwing the shield then later in his dial the toughness and outwit when he comes in close and uses his abilities to take out opponents. Well that's my take on Cap he rounded out at about 90 points but then again I have not use some of the other formulas. Perhaps he would be a little cheaper.
One more note: Thor should be a bit tougher. Iknow Iknow he's a great piece, but in all honesty Thor is Marvel's Superman and he should have more damage and toughness or somthing at the end of his dial. Heck Rookie Colossus can do 4 clicks of damage as a rookie, thor should do no less- no if but or ands! Has anybody ever read his comic book? Prety scary stuff. This boy can take on Celestials,Thanos, Gladiator, need I go on? Ok enough of that were talking about Cap and he definately got Jipped!

[Shield1776]

Redo Cap now!!!! No justice no peace!!!! :)

[Benno]

A cool twist would be to give him psychic blast, but for his shield.
i mean gawd, it would probably hurt doomsday to be hit by a shield made of adamantium thrown from won of marvels strongest heroes.

Just my opinion!

[GeorgeDaGreat]

Wow! Talk about bringing a thread back to life!

This started in March!

Anyway yeah Cap sucks. It's as easy as that.

[TheLion]

<Yawn>

Another Cap thread.

Maybe they should give him phasing and then mind control, that would be great!

How about a complete dial of invulnerability, because his shield is indestructable.

I know, better yet, put Cap on a Batman dial so he can get rid of his Batman-envy. :rolleyes:

[Shield1776]

Batman = loser with a tool belt, Cap = essentially superhuman. Sorry that this thread offends your delicate sensibilities, but I guess you didn't have to read it or respond for that matter.

[razorramon31]

Ditto! The point of a specific thread is o make some valid opinions not jst go insulting with out even so much as a reason...better stick to the kiddie threads...

[TheLion]

Better yet.

Put Cap on a Thor - E Dial.

There ya go Shield1776. The perfect Cap for you.

[big boy]

The V cap was one of my first trades. I got the E later on but I'm not that dissapointed because overall he is a very solid fig to use. Both E and V. But as a excuse to make another cap, make the cap from the Ultimates. A cool update of a character which is dying to be made into HC. Give him EE and Willpower and I'd try to find that fig.

[WPaladin]

Well I see this arguement two ways.

I like Cap too, and from what I understand, he is a highly trained, serum-pumped, shield-totin' super-soldier. How can any Elektra fig ever match that? Isn't she just your average run-of-the-mill human being/super ninja? And she costs *more* than any Batman, who is like the same thing only cooler and better and rich? How does she cost more than people with actual super-powers? How does she cost more than E Ultron, much less Cap?!!! And Mind Control? What is she, Elektra, Return of the Jedi?

Plus, from what I understand, Ultimate Cap battled the Ultimate Hulk toe-to-toe, and more or less won.

Although if I'm not mistaken, Cap took a backseat role during Infinity Gauntlet. Sat back, said a cool line, died, you know.

Also, I wouldn't recommend stealth at the start of his dial. More like charge. I mean, isn't stealth kind of coward-ish?

[WPaladin]

Good point, insight. I think Cap with a solid 3 damage would be fair. Or 2 damage combined with Outwit, as you choose.

A supportive Cap would be really cool. Sort of a low-coster Experienced with the A-team, support, leadership, and outwit, all under 50 points. Decent stats for fighting, but better as an all-around team player.

[razorramon31]

I think that Cap needs to be redone in the next expansion but like yesterday...And they still don't get spidey right either...I can see Cap for maybe 1 click of 3 damage but better would be to give Cap perplex I mean what better power to give the man who is Militray tactitian and master strategist...he's always telling his fellow avenger where to position themselves to be more usefull in combat that's pretty "preplexing" right there don't you think?

[Masada]

Originally posted by WPaladin
Plus, from what I understand, Ultimate Cap battled the Ultimate Hulk toe-to-toe, and more or less won.

(Not exactly -M)

Although if I'm not mistaken, Cap took a backseat role during Infinity Gauntlet. Sat back, said a cool line, died, you know.

(That happened to everyone in IG -M)