View Full Version : Why does Energy Explosion not hit objects
I know the rules say you can't, I want to know why.
Tsannik! Where are you Tsannik?!
Lassie? What is it girl? Did Tsannik fall in that d@mn well again? Come on. Let's go rescue Tsannik so he can explain all this. You know that he loves to go into great detail on all of the minor things about heroclix. What would we do without him, girl?
It's because of how Energy Explosion is worded on the PAC. It specifically states that it will affect targeted figures.
I realize that B/C/F also states this, but if you won't accept that answer then....
It is that way because that is what it is ruled to be.
Yes, I know it says it in the rules. Did wizkids decide that it would be overly exploitable?
It just seems I should be able to hit an object with EE and splash the people around/inside it. I realize that hitting an object requires no roll, but you would roll to defeat their defense. It's no different then if I hit a person, my roll still has to defeat the adjacent characters defense.
I'm not sure exactly why it was ruled this way.
If it was brought up to the WK Judges forum and debated... I was not there at the time.
I do know that when destroying walls, it would have been able to destroy 3 walls at a time. I don't think they wanted that.
But as I've said... I have no definitive answer as to why.
Actually no it couldn't. EE only does 1 click of damage and a wall needs 3 to be destroyed. If you have enhancing characters well, that be acceptable to destroy 3 pieces of wall. You have to go through all the trouble of lining them up to do this.
Well, of course not, by itself....
But coupled with SHIELD or Enhancement... it could have been used in that way. That was one of the big deals.
TheSpirit
03/06/2003, 15:16
I think Tsannik's talking about splash damage affecting the adjacent wall squares. If you had two SHIELD agents backing up an EE attack, you could deal 3 to the target square and splash 3 to each adjacent square.
And if that was allowed, imagine the possibilities with a figure like V Boomerang, with EE and three bolts, backed up by two SHIELD agents, blasting nine squares of terrain.
In other words, EE is plenty powerful on its own. No need to go adding in object damage, too.
Perhaps what happened to Kris is...Batman was hidden behind the gumball machine. Ultron targeted the gumball machine & hit Batman w. 1 click of damage. ... My short smart*** answer is: don't hide Batman behind the gumball machine. Instead hide Batman behind the shrub or air conditioner that can't be targeted because they are map features.
Originally posted by Kris
Actually no it couldn't. EE only does 1 click of damage and a wall needs 3 to be destroyed. If you have enhancing characters well, that be acceptable to destroy 3 pieces of wall. You have to go through all the trouble of lining them up to do this.
Nope, as the rulings stand, it's no walls gone from EE. You can't hit a wall with an EE attack either.
It's probably a wise ruling since the other way leads to problems with walls:
using code tags for fixed spacing.
P
---
G
Now, if Gambit(G) were able to EE attack the wall, he might be able to blast through it to hit Psylocke (P) without actually breaching the wall.
There are other more contrived questions that can come up, but I think the example here is a good indication of the problems it can cause.
If you have 2 people with enhancement(so far only 8 in the game) just to do this, that's 2 people you don't have for something else. If you use 2 Shield characters to boost this, that uses 3 actions. I would love it if somebody used 3 actions just to destroy 3 sections of wall.
You're wrong NateTG. You couldn't hit Psylocke because she is not adjacent, there is blocking terrian between your EE and her, the wall itself.
TheSpirit
03/06/2003, 16:10
Originally posted by Kris
I would love it if somebody used 3 actions just to destroy 3 sections of wall.
As I pointed out, you could use those three actions to destroy nine sections of a wall, too, along with (theoretically) 18 figures for 2-3 damage each, and that would be a worthwhile use of just three actions.
You're wrong NateTG. You couldn't hit Psylocke because she is not adjacent, there is blocking terrian between your EE and her, the wall itself.
The splash damage would hit her, though. You're forgetting that anything adjacent (psylocke) to the target square (the wall) also takes splash damage. So the wall you hit, the two adjacent walls, and any figure adjacent to that first wall square would all take damage.
Now do you understand?
Originally posted by Kris
You're wrong NateTG. You couldn't hit Psylocke because she is not adjacent, there is blocking terrian between your EE and her, the wall itself.
The EE happens on the wall, not on Gambit's side of the wall, so there is no blocking terrain between it and Psylocke.
Perhaps it would be clearer if you replaced the wall with barriers.
Of course, as I proceed in this discussion, I keep coming up with more problems that allowing EE attacks on objects causes.
---
W
G
W=Wolverine in hindering terrain
G=Gambit
Since Gambit can't target Wolverine directly, he decides (under house rules) to blast the wall behind Wolverine with an EE attack instead. Attacks against walls automatically hit so there is
no roll.
Does the attack hit Wolverine?
That's precisely the purpose NateTG. Your Stealth character is in a bush, I can't see him so I can't hit him, so I EE the bush and hit him.
No, she is not adjacent to the wall, there is blocking terrian, the wall itself. Now if you destroy the wall with EE(Enhancement, Shield, etc...) yes it would hit her since the blocking terrain is gone.
TheSpirit
03/06/2003, 16:33
Originally posted by Kris
No, she is not adjacent to the wall, there is blocking terrian, the wall itself. Now if you destroy the wall with EE(Enhancement, Shield, etc...) yes it would hit her since the blocking terrain is gone.
kris, read the PAC description for EE again. If you add "or object/wall" after target figure, to allow an EE attack to target non-figures, then what NateTG is suggesting would happen. When you targetted the wall, all figures, objects, and walls adjacent to the target would be hit with splash damage. The splash would carry over - there's nothing in the rules to prevent it.
Originally posted by Kris
That's precisely the purpose NateTG. Your Stealth character is in a bush, I can't see him so I can't hit him, so I EE the bush and hit him.
Did you actually read the second to last sentence in my post?
The problem is that Gambit doesn't roll to hit the wall in the first place, so there's no good way to tell whether he hits Wolverine.
Originally posted by Kris
No, she is not adjacent to the wall, there is blocking terrian, the wall itself. Now if you destroy the wall with EE(Enhancement, Shield, etc...) yes it would hit her since the blocking terrain is gone.
Right, so if there is a figure that gets hit by an EE attack it also blocks the EE attacks into adjacent squares unless it dies, and characters that are in squares next to walls can't make close combat attacks at the wall because they're not adjacent since they're blocked by the wall?
Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you're saying is that the EE can't get from the wall to Psylocke because the wall is in the way?
But, (this is even better), you say that if the EE attack would go through if it did enough damage to destroy the wall. So EE has some sort of magical penetrating ability when it gets to three damage?
Ok, please give me clear, short, and unambigious rules text that will allow that and also cleanly handle the following situation:
1,2,X are Barrier Squares
B is E Boomerang
P is Psylocke, friendly to Boomerang
T are Thugs
TXT
X12X
PB
Boomerang fires EE shots at 1 and 2 using Psylocke's enhancement.
Bonus points for not completely rewriting the current rules for attacking walls.
Well Nate since you want to bring up not reading let's really tag you.
I've already stated you would do a die roll when hitting the wall, you would automatically hit the wall, but your die roll would need to defeat the adjacent characters just like normal EE.
On damage 3 the splash would carry over, because that destroys the wall(which has been mentioned SEVERAL times already) so there is no blocking terrian anymore.
Ok, I missed that you actually called for a roll.
My position on this issue is that allowing EE attacks on objects causes lots of problems, so the ruling was made to prevent those problems from becoming an issue. You're certainly welcome to make house rules to allow it.
As long as you're willing to admit that in order to allow EE attacks on non-figures the rules for attacking walls need to be rewritten (at least for EE), and that a whole slew of special rulings need to be made. We're essentially in agreement.
If you do decide to make house rules that allow EE attacks of objects, be prepared to determine
how EE Blasts interact with 1 and 2D hindering and blocking structure, and under what circumstances, and when you roll. You should probably also determine how boxcars and snake eyes are resolved. The answers to those questions are not trivial.
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