Should Wizkids change theme bonus rules?

[charlesdward]

This is inspired by discussion in the Gleek/Wonder Twins Keyword thread.
Personal opinion - the theme bonuses are more of an obstacle to building actual themes, and are just another form of min/maxing.
As a source material team player (i.e. comic-accurate), it bothers me that most of the themed teams I build are not themed by the keywords allotted.
Add to that glaring omissions on many figures, or keywords that just don't make sense, not to mention long reference lists for older figures... plus the fact that BFC's are not used in Modern Age, thus nullifying one of the largest benefits of keyword themes (cancelling detrimental BFC's)...
I just think that eliminating at least the theme prob (but keeping the map choice bonus) would encourage more freedom in team building.

Poll choices coming up in a couple of minutes...

[Hellboy]

YES!

a much better reward for theme is extra build points.

5 Bonus points per 100 point build for theme teams!



I never thought that Probability Control fit the spirit of the idea of a theme team. Map choice? sure that's fine. But I think the freedom to add additional members to fill out a theme is a much better way of expressing the theme idea.

How often did you want to make a theme team, but you were just a few points short?

I think it would also divert the Min-Max abuse away from the pseudo-theme teams to score those competitive theme Probs, and restore the importance of characters that actually have the power on their dial.

[The REAL ARES (DC)]

I hit the wrong choice. I meant to hit the keep the map, cancel the EXTRA probs. Sometimes the theme prob just unbalanced a game. There are no extra build points for extra probs, and if the opponent doesn't build a theme team his or herself, they have to fight a very uphill battle sometimes.

[bluesummers]

I like keywords in general, because they encourage comic accurate play. This is especially true since most non-generic teams are missing certain power sets and are not as efficient as a simple min/max'd team.
They also allow for some interesting ATAs and SP bonuses. I like Mr. Fantastic being able to Perplex down Doom's damage output by -2 because they are dueling scientists.

But I am becoming tired, in the environment, of generic theme teams because certain keywords are so common that they are becoming rampant. If the point of introducing them was to curb min/max players, then they have failed. If anything, it only gives a potent edge to min/max-ers who build inside of scientist, martial artist, and mystic keywords.

i'd be happy if the Generics keywords stayed for game effects, but didn't have the map roll bonus. I could go either way on the theme team prob.

[The REAL ARES (DC)]

YES!

a much better reward for theme is extra build points.

5 Bonus points per 100 point build for theme teams!



I never thought that Probability Control fit the spirit of the idea of a theme team. Map choice? sure that's fine. But I think the freedom to add additional members to fill out a theme is a much better way of expressing the theme idea.

How often did you want to make a theme team, but you were just a few points short?

I think it would also divert the Min-Max abuse away from the pseudo-theme teams to score those competitive theme Probs, and restore the importance of characters that actually have the power on their dial.


YES to what you said!!! You beat me to the punch on this!!!

[bluesummers]

I hit the wrong choice. I meant to hit the keep the map, cancel the EXTRA probs. Sometimes the theme prob just unbalanced a game. There are no extra build points for extra probs, and if the opponent doesn't build a theme team his or herself, they have to fight a very uphill battle sometimes.

Personally, I think giving them map bonus is the worst. Many maps are very one-sided towards one type of team. A generic theme team is usually a min/max beast, that then gets to pick terrain and dominate an opponent.

[Rsoko1]

Other; I think theme teams should also be acceptable if everyone has the same team ability. I like the normal bonuses though.

[absolutvt69]

I think they need to be tweaked but I like the theme team probs. I'm not sure how anyone thinks that's unbalancing. Even if you build a 14 figure team you're talking about 7 rerolls total and the figures have to take a token. It can be frustrating when paired with regular Prob but by itself it's nowhere near broken. Most teams it's going to give 3 or 4 rerolls max.

I'm ok with changing things for generic theme teams or taking away the bonuses altogether for them but I think non-generic teams need to have something added in addition to the map bonus and the theme probs.

[tyroclix]

Keywords are a great and useful part of team-building. I like them all and think they should stay.

I would like more care and thought put into them, however.

Regarding promoting the use of keyword themes:

I think the bonus to map, while powerful, is a good reason for theme. This is a solid advantage that I wouldn't mind seeing continue.

Canceling a BFC is great - although doesn't have as much use in the current games. Players that play Modern Age don't even know what a BFC is and a lot of Golden Age gains ban their use as well. Still a keeper 'just because'.

Gaining Probability Control is too powerful in a dice game. It was insane to begin with and has proven to be over-powering (evidenced if you play just one game against it).

Someone mentioned adding an extra action - which I think could be a great idea - if they are added with a limit, not unlike Probability Control. Gaining 1 or more actions every turn is just as game breaking.

You could gain 1 action for every 3 members of your theme team. That action can be used during any of your turns.

So assume a 600 point team (4 actions). I am running a non-generic keyword theme with 7 characters on it. I would gain 2 bonus actions to use during the game.

This would be highly beneficial to teams with scads of soldiers on them since they need the extra actions but wouldn't be unbalanced for players running only a few high cost pieces.

The dice rolls would be fairer among the players without one side getting an extreme bonus. And once those bonus actions were gone that would be it.

I like the more thematic feel of the Justice League working together a little better than a mish-mash. I do agree that generic keywords are important for allowing cross-universe theme teams, though.

As far as Judges allowing themes, that is how its always been suggested from WK. And I've always played it as such.

[JPV>BW]

get rid of generic keyword's completely they are an abomination :) seriously

[Slade Wilson]

I like the map bonus and the prob. however I would rather just get re rolls in place of prob and having to give a token to another figure. I mean it seems there is more benefit to building a non theme team ie: no limitations, and I feel the mechanic could use a boost. I also feel people would want to play more themes this way to ge the awsome re-roll bonus and the map bonus.

[ChiRocker]

Make Generic Keywords simply for other game mechanics.

[vamroc]

Yes, just make it 4 figures with the same Keyword and or team symbol and remove the point restrictions.

[VikingRS]

I voted to limit the bonuses for generic teams.

Personally, I just really want them to fix the freakin' keywords.

My primary example:

The Blackest Night set.

Pic-in-time aside, just look at the Brightest Day set figs. They can even be used on a theme with each other!

A Blackest Night Keyword would be amazing.


Others would be like:

Flash could have Central City.

Lex could have Metropolis or ruler or scientist.

Mera could have Atlantis or ruler.

Scarecrow could have Gotham City. Even AA Sinestro Batman has it!

The Atom could have Justice League or scientist.


Wonder Woman got Amazon. Why was she the only one to get an extra Keyword?

Or alternatively, you could give them each all those Keywords. Please! :)

[csi]

get rid of most generic keywords (keep animal) and fix other keywords like combining JLA, Justice League, Justice League of America.

[JPV>BW]

Make Generic Keywords simply for other game mechanics.

yes agreed

[haibane13]

Our venue got rid of the generic and non-generic complication and instead states that if all your pieces have the same keyword and you have at least 2 pieces you have a theme team .

[Wade Wilson]

Bring back the Mutant keyword!

[tidge]

When the day comes that "Easy Company" and "Gorilla City" teams can only get bonuses for playing with generic keywords, it is time to get rid of all keyword bonuses.

[weaponzer0]

I'm ok with changing things for generic theme teams or taking away the bonuses altogether for them but I think non-generic teams need to have something added in addition to the map bonus and the theme probs.

^This... It seems to me that non-generic theme teams are at a disadvantage which isn't that the whole reason this game was started... to see what team would win. ala~ The Masters of Evil V.S. the X-Men. Things of that nature. While I do LOVE to team up Wolvie and Supes, Generic "soldier V.S. future" is a lot less interesting than say... JLA V.S. Avengers. agree?
So also Non-generic themes are a whole lot less easy to build and you need to find a lot of less good pieces for support. So maybe only NG themes should get the PC bonus.

[ThePrinted6]

Generic keywords are really the problem. I selected "limit generic bonuses" because those Keywords should still exist to define the characters that possess them for game effect purposes like Feats (which I still think should exist, just with a banned or errata'ed list for the worst offenders) or SPs that reference generic Keywords, Perplex for Soldiers or what have you, but there should be no over-arcing benefit for playing a universe inaccurate, time inaccurate, and thematically inaccurate collection of figures just because they all happen to be Teens or Mystical.

Even ones that seem to make sense, such as Soldier or Scientist, should not be allowed because it encourages powergaming as opposed to thematic building, which is the point. "Who with this keyword can I slap onto this team to add this power." Perfect example: what excited people the most about DC75 Alan Scott wasn't that we were getting an upgrade for a very popular and pretty poorly designed character, but that now Gotham City had a Teke. Generic bonuses must be either radically curbed or gotten rid of altogether. (Edit: admittedly, Gotham City is a specific, so I make a bad case with it, but it's still keyword thinking that is not thematic in origin, but mechanical. Alan Scott should be working with the JSA, not the Bat Family. Also, the "City" keywords tend to be bad choices for me because they group villains and heroes together, but that's a different discussion. We should have "Bat Ally" and "Bat Enemy" [but less crummy, to borrow from VS. System, let's say "Gotham Knights" and "Arkham Inmates" instead. I don't know if Alan Scott would qualify for "Gotham Knights.")

Specific teams should keep benefits, but they should be revised to be more unique. The JLA should not get the same theme benefit as the Masters of Evil, they're completely different teams who do things completely different ways. Modify it so that instead of Probability Control uses, perhaps one team gets Willpower uses, or single-use attack or defense Perplexes, or any of a thousand other great options. This would also allow less powerful teams to even the playing field by receiving a big, potent theme bonus as opposed to the JLA, Avengers, or some other team with more potent figures.

Also, I think the definition of qualifying as a non-Generic team should be broadened. It's hard to fit the JLA or Avengers, for example, as a theme team without including some smaller guys just to up the total number of characters to fit the 1-per-150 floor. You should be able to have a 600 point JLA theme with 3 characters if those 3 are Supes, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter. This one I haven't really done the research on to how it might be broken, so if anyone would like to point that out to me, I'd appreciate it. Still, the benefits would most likely be based on total number of characters on the team, so a 3-man theme team wouldn't get very many "uses" of whatever their replacement theme bonus was.

I apologize for the length of my post, and thank anyone who took the time to read it.

[tyroclix]

Generic keywords are really the problem. I selected "limit generic bonuses" because those Keywords should still exist to define the characters that possess them for game effect purposes like Feats (which I still think should exist, just with a banned or errata'ed list for the worst offenders) or SPs that reference generic Keywords, Perplex for Soldiers or what have you, but there should be no over-arcing benefit for playing a universe inaccurate, time inaccurate, and thematically inaccurate collection of figures just because they all happen to be Teens or Mystical.

Even ones that seem to make sense, such as Soldier or Scientist, should not be allowed because it encourages powergaming as opposed to thematic building, which is the point. "Who with this keyword can I slap onto this team to add this power." Perfect example: what excited people the most about DC75 Alan Scott wasn't that we were getting an upgrade for a very popular and pretty poorly designed character, but that now Gotham City had a Teke. Generic bonuses must be either radically curbed or gotten rid of altogether. (Edit: admittedly, Gotham City is a specific, so I make a bad case with it, but it's still keyword thinking that is not thematic in origin, but mechanical. Alan Scott should be working with the JSA, not the Bat Family. Also, the "City" keywords tend to be bad choices for me because they group villains and heroes together, but that's a different discussion. We should have "Bat Ally" and "Bat Enemy" [but less crummy, to borrow from VS. System, let's say "Gotham Knights" and "Arkham Inmates" instead. I don't know if Alan Scott would qualify for "Gotham Knights.")

Here is where I completely disagree.

1) It is a fact some players want to mix universes. I think it is unfair for a player who wants to "monkey up" to not be able to put the Super-Apes with Gleek and Grodd and get just as thematic a bonus as Gotham City.

2) Alan Scott does indeed help out Gotham City denizens. It is completely comic-accurate which you call for, but then deny this building choice the same benefit.

3) Min/Max is min/max. Lets not pretend there aren't min/max'd non-generic teams. Avengers is a nasty keyword team and JSA is sick especially in large games.

Honestly, if players want to relive the comics and force others to do so as well, then there should be a comic-run on the back of each card and figures that share a comic issue number should only gain the "benefit". :p

After all, I can't make the line-up of All-Star Squadron #31 if I want some free PC's because Uncle Sam, Batman, Plastic-Man, & flying Superman don't all share a common keyword. But I get a bonus by using Jakeem Thunder, Johnny Thunder, Mr. Terrific (Terry Sloan), Black Adam, and Vet Damage? That team-up never happened.

Of course one could say to use your imagination to which I reply, what about the monkeys?

It will never be a perfect system. I do believe, by dropping the PC bonus, the game will rely less on keyword themes but still provide a neat benefit for those who want to use them...

[GreenMan]

How about keep everything about non-generics the same, but limit the pc to your opponents rolls only, or your rolls only. you have to declare which one before the game starts.

And keep generic keywords but change the bonus somehow. Maybe one or two perplexes per game at the cost of a token per perplex.

[Sigdr]

there should be no over-arcing benefit for playing a universe inaccurate, time inaccurate, and thematically inaccurate collection of figures just because they all happen to be Teens or Mystical.

Really? Why not?

Allow me to explain - the entire premise of many comic book teams is that all of the members are teens, or all are mystical, or what have you. To use a specific example, the Teen Titans at the time of their formation were a "thematically inaccurate" collection of characters who just happened to all be teens - and guess what, they worked pretty well together. The same can be said for a good number of other comic book teams; it's hardly a unique phenomenon.

So why shouldn't Heroclix, a game based on comic books, encourage a common comic book phenomenon: The formation of teams based on some common attribute? In other words, why should "comic accurate" only refer to specific events that have happened in comic books, and not general phenomena that regularly happen in comic books? It's an excessively limiting stance, if you ask me.

To take this exercise to another level, I have another question. What if, from now on, comic book superheroes never formed any new teams and never added any new members to their teams?
I would say that the universes in question would stagnate. Authors would run out of interesting stories to tell, readers would quickly become bored by the lack of novelty and the lack of opportunity for change or surprise.

For superhero comic books to be justified as a medium for storytelling, then, the characters in them must change, and that means, among other things, changes in team membership, formation of new teams and occasionally dissolution of old ones.

If Heroclix is truly to reflect comics, then, it makes perfect sense for generic keywords to exist, for novel and unique teams to be encouraged.


Even ones that seem to make sense, such as Soldier or Scientist, should not be allowed because it encourages powergaming as opposed to thematic building, which is the point. "Who with this keyword can I slap onto this team to add this power."

No amount of forcing players to play "comic-accurate" teams will get rid of powergaming. People will always want to play the most powerful thing available within the parameters set before them. Say you ask an average two players to play a Justice Society vs. Injustice Society game - you will see the most powerful Justice Society figures and the most powerful Injustice Society figures hit the map. It is impossible to eliminate powergaming; it is only possible to change the face of powergaming. Are people playing X-Men teams going to ignore Nightcrawler? Are people playing Thunderbolts teams going to ignore Bullseye? Not bloody likely.


Also, the "City" keywords tend to be bad choices for me because they group villains and heroes together, but that's a different discussion.

In comics, heroes and villains team up sometimes. There exist comics where the entire point is that the line between hero and villain is not so distinct. This mechanic is not a problem, it is a boon.


Specific teams should keep benefits, but they should be revised to be more unique. The JLA should not get the same theme benefit as the Masters of Evil, they're completely different teams who do things completely different ways.

a) Go to the Units section and scroll down the drop-down box for keywords, taking note of the number of non-generic keywords.
What game developer is going to want to create, balance and possibly playtest a unique theme team bonus for every single one of those? I wouldn't.
b) Speaking of game balance, a unique theme benefit for each of these keywords introduces another set of abilities the game developers have to consider whenever they make new characters. In addition to being a giant pain for them, it would limit possibilities - either by disincentiving them to give certain figures certain keywords that might combine to produce certain effects on the game, or by disincentiving them from giving certain powers/stats to figures that may deserve them, again out of 'brokenness' concerns.






tl;dr: If Wizkids is reading this thread at all, consider my voice as an emphatic vote for: "Keywords are fine, keep them as they are!"

[turdburglar47]

I would like to see Generic Keyword bonuses eliminated and simply used for other game mechanics (like Animal Man's power, etc.)

This is especially true after my three-man Justice Legion A team didn't qualify for theme in a 500 point game, but Martial Artist cheese was able to cancel my BFC and use theme probs on me.

[KillerSavage]

I like what has been done with keywords via feats and special powers. I've always hated the bonuses though. I voted to drop em altogether.

[GreenMan]

I would like to see Generic Keyword bonuses eliminated and simply used for other game mechanics (like Animal Man's power, etc.)

This is especially true after my three-man Justice Legion A team didn't qualify for theme in a 500 point game, but Martial Artist cheese was able to cancel my BFC and use theme probs on me.

I like that idea about generic keyword simply used for other game mechanics. That makes so much sense. I could live with that.

I DO like the generic keyword, but not to the degree that you cite in your second paragraph. That had to suck.

As far as generic keywords go, I like to play the Armor keyword, but in a way that's more theme-y, such as Russian armor, Doombots, or Shield. I ran a soldier keyword team once, but my team was entirely Saurian troopers. THAT team needed theme team bonus help.:grin:

Imo, there is a place for generic keywords because they can be creative and competitive without being cheesy. Maybe the Judge could determine the boundaries of what a generic "theme " should be when he or she announces the next scenario.

Anyway, rep to you for a good idea.

[Sigdr]

Imo, there is a place for generic keywords because they can be creative and competitive without being cheesy. Maybe the Judge could determine the boundaries of what a generic "theme " should be when he or she announces the next scenario.

Like building a Martial Artist team around Gladiator.

If you haven't tried it, do sometime. It's really fun, and surprisingly enough, not terrible.

[JDub]

Personally, I think giving them map bonus is the worst. Many maps are very one-sided towards one type of team. A generic theme team is usually a min/max beast, that then gets to pick terrain and dominate an opponent.

I agree. I think they should keep everything else the way it is except either get rid of the map bonus all together or have it be you get a bonus equal to half the number of characters you have (rounded up).

[Petros76]

I don't mind the bonus as is. With Map choice and PC with token. My issue is that they have gotten rid of certain generic keywords such as mutant and kept others such as scientist, martial artist, Gotham City, teen, etc. which are just as abusable.

[ThePrinted6]

So why shouldn't Heroclix, a game based on comic books, encourage a common comic book phenomenon: The formation of teams based on some common attribute? In other words, why should "comic accurate" only refer to specific events that have happened in comic books, and not general phenomena that regularly happen in comic books? It's an excessively limiting stance, if you ask me...

a) Go to the Units section and scroll down the drop-down box for keywords, taking note of the number of non-generic keywords.
What game developer is going to want to create, balance and possibly playtest a unique theme team bonus for every single one of those? I wouldn't.


Great stuff, Sigdr, and fair points all. I absolutely agree that HeroClix is all about hypothetical and theoretical team ups, just like comics. I just don't think there should be a mechanic in place that gives these hypothetical mash-ups the same benefit as the synergized "specific keyword" teams. Hence, weaken or eliminate generic benefits. I'm not a hardcore "comic accurate" player, in fact I almost never play comic accurate. I think that comic accurate teams should be given a greater benefit to compensate for the fact that it's not some power-gamed monstrosity selected from a much broader pool of more potent figs. There's some fundamenal power imbalances in HeroClix's core mechanics, and it seems to me that this is one that can be remedied.

For the second point, who'd want to design all that new material? I'd love to do it. WizNECAKids, send me a paycheck and I'll do it by next week. Plus, I didn't figure each team would have an absolutely unique benefit. Like with TA's being shared (Titans and X-Men, say) I figure that many would be shared/duplicated.

Nonetheless, I'm glad you and others took the time to read my post and formulate an excellent response.

[Sigdr]

Great stuff, Sigdr, and fair points all. I absolutely agree that HeroClix is all about hypothetical and theoretical team ups, just like comics. I just don't think there should be a mechanic in place that gives these hypothetical mash-ups the same benefit as the synergized "specific keyword" teams. Hence, weaken or eliminate generic benefits. I'm not a hardcore "comic accurate" player, in fact I almost never play comic accurate. I think that comic accurate teams should be given a greater benefit to compensate for the fact that it's not some power-gamed monstrosity selected from a much broader pool of more potent figs. There's some fundamenal power imbalances in HeroClix's core mechanics, and it seems to me that this is one that can be remedied.

Fair enough. I could agree to generic theme team bonuses being weakened somewhat, maybe reducing/removing the map choice bonus, on the principle that the hypothetical teams wouldn't work as smoothly together as long-established teams would. Still, I'd want to keep some bonuses for generic keyword teams, though that may be my fondness for LoSH / Titans team-ups speaking.

For the second point, who'd want to design all that new material? I'd love to do it. WizNECAKids, send me a paycheck and I'll do it by next week. Plus, I didn't figure each team would have an absolutely unique benefit. Like with TA's being shared (Titans and X-Men, say) I figure that many would be shared/duplicated.

Be sure to design a really fun one for the X-Statix, so WK/NECA is encouraged to finally make more of them! :grin:

[Sharkbite]

Normally I am opposed to anything that complicates the game further.

There is already a distinction drawn between generic and non-generic keywords, including a differant point amount per figure required. Shifting the bonus given could be added in this point and it wouldn't be too far differant, but would encourage "comic-accurate teams", rather than "theme teams".

[MaxFortune]

I vote that any theme team bonus points be based on the square root of the point build, but that Wizkids follow their usual rulebook tradition and "typo" it to say "square" instead of "square root".

Which'll be great for those of us with extensive figure collections, right up until the time the errata is released.

Either that or base the bonus points on a formula which requires trig knowledge to use/decipher, thereby making an already baroque rules set even more obscure.

Take your pick.

[thanosstar]

theme is goo and all...but in the spirit of heroclix you should be able to play them teams and teams like beta ray bill and superman just cus u want to

[larrynovacat]

I'm finding a lot of the cheese factor with generic theme teams. I like venues that have non-generic theme team days with modern age (alternate team abilities only). Too much cheesy teams with scientists, spies, cosmic, etc.

[ben138]

I voted to lose the generic keywords and just have non-generic, but after thinking it over, the rules are a cluster@$%^ already without adding the confusion of further changes.

[llyrghmnghyll]

I vote we change it to let judges decide what is and isn't Theme.

This change is convenient because it isn't a change.

[elfholme]

There should be more emphasis placed on building themes that support the background material (in other words, actual comic book themes). I think there are two ways to achieve this:

1) reduce the benefits for generic keywords (or eliminate them altogether). Forcing 1 character /100 pts instead of /150 pts is obviously not enough to dicourage generic theme team min-maxing instead of comic book theme team play. And keywords should NOT cross universes. The bonuses are supposed to represent the fact that the members of the team have experience working together so they do it better than a random collection of characters. Generic keywords getting the theme team bonus does NOT represent this.

2) take the keywords online, or offer regular hard paper updates that players can purchase. I prefer the online solution because I think it's easier for both WK and players, but either would work. The online solution could simply be keyword lists that get updated with each new set, or they could actually be PnP cards that could be downloaded. If there is a small pricetag attached to these PnP cards to cover costs, I wouldn't be against it. If there's a price attached though, PnP would need to be an option (so a player could either use the PnP card or the one the character originally came with).

I'd love to be able to use the Gamora we have as a thematic element of a Guardians of the Galaxy team (I think it'd be hard to argue that she's NOT thematic), but the only way to give us that would be through some method of updating keywords. If a character joins a team, if a keyword was accidently omitted, even if an erroneous keyword was attached to a character, it would be nice to have updated cards to reflect this.

I love the base keyword concept, but I think the execution could be better. There's way too much advantage to running a generic theme team over a comic accurate theme team.

[ben138]

I'd love to be able to use the Gamora we have as a thematic element of a Guardians of the Galaxy team.

this.
She fits on a theme team with Karate Kid, Bronze Tiger and Nightwing, but not the Guardians.
urgh.

[Perplexinator]

I think Theme Bonuses are the #1 element in this game I don't agree with entirely.

It's just overpowered to be able to choose (if facing non-theme, pretty much) the map, be able to cancel a BFC (insanely overpowered) and have multiple free probability controls.

It's not as bad if teams have to be based on non-generic keywords, but you'd just see Gotham City theme teams (and such) played more than already are (which is a lot).

[ThePancakeMan]

Just take away prob bonuses, generic theme teams usually get WAY more of them than comic accurate teams 90% of the time.

[elfholme]

Just take away prob bonuses, generic theme teams usually get WAY more of them than comic accurate teams 90% of the time.

Do this and you may as well just eliminate the mechanic altogether.

This is really throwing the baby out with the bath water. I think most players would agree that the main issue with the keyword theme team rules is generic keyword theme teams. Therefore, the rules around generic keywords need to be modified; we don't need a blanket change to the rules for ALL keywords.

Eliminate the PC rolls for GENERIC keyword theme teams (something I'd totally support, as I don't think they warrant them), halve them for those teams, etc. But a blanket removal of the PC rolls eliminates the #1 game rule benefit for taking non-generic keyword theme teams. That is a bad idea.

[flatmatt]

Keep the keywords, lose the themed team rules. I guess I would be okay with keeping the bonus to map roll if you really think we need something for themed teams, but the BFC cancel and especially the weird prob control rules feel extremely "tacked on" to the game, which makes sense because they are "tacked on" to the game.

[bob terwilliger]

I dont mind the map bonus but I hate the PC. I haven't played competitively in a long while and when I get to play at home we generally ignore all of the theme team bonuses. We do typically make thematic teams though.

[Crazy Bee]

Keep the generic keywords for special powers but not valid for theme teams and allow a bit of wiggle room to accomidate people playing in the spirit of theme teams.

Allow theme bonuses for someone who can provide decent evidence that their team is theme accurate. But judges should have the final word.

[mkweaver]

I went with "other":

For Generic themes, I guess they could keep the die roll bonus for map choice (so a bunch of rowdy teens set an ambush for the older, slower enemy - I guess). You could let them ignore a BFC, but I would probably suggest instead that ignoring BFCs be reserved for the well-practiced, non-generic theme teams.

Also for Nons, I would suggest instead of PC, Perplex would be more appropriate, as the other figure(s) that get the token(s) help to set up the attack or distracting to increase defense. The only bad part about this is that it is not an instant use like PC - folks would have to keep track of it until the player's next turn. That, or give Generics Perplex and non-generics both Perplex and PC, still with the same number of freebies as would normally allowed, but with the choice of how each freebie is used...

And as for whether something is Theme, I would let the keywords work as a first choice, but when the keywords don't match, you could let the judge decide if something is theme; if nothing else, if you could bring in a comic cover of your team (where they are not fighting each other) or a page in a comic, and I would think that the judge should at least give you the Generic theme bonuses. The judge should look at the keywords already made for that particular figure and its counterparts as well, though; I think WK tried to make some keywords on certain figures restricted so that one specifically couldn't get too abusive with their teams.

Anyway, I doubt my ideas will be taken in, as it would make the theme team section more complex and take up more space in the rulebook.

Hope these ideas enlightened some people and good luck out there!

[Vigilante]

I like theme team bonuses. It makes sense to me for a true theme team to get the Probability bonus and to have a better chance to be the first player. I don't like the rule about ignoring the other team's battlefield conditions though. Theme team bonuses should inspire people to play teams that one might actually see in a comic book. I always play theme teams when I play.

[asmooth]

Generic keywords should be banished!!! Keywords like martial artist are over used and too powerful!!!

[TH0MAS5]

... plus the fact that BFC's are not used in Modern Age, thus nullifying one of the largest benefits of keyword themes (cancelling detrimental BFC's)...

...



I think that a generic Theme Team should NOT be able to cancel a BFC
used by a Non-generic Theme Team.


Give Non-Generic Theme Teams a slightly better bonus in Golden Age.

[Glen Quagmire]

I'd say reduce generic teams to a single re-roll per game, regardless of the number of figures on the team.

But overall, I think WK needs to take a new design approach to generic keywords; something that competes with the appeal of simply doing a search for "Scientist" or "Teen" and throwing them all together. There should be more interaction between different generic keywords. There should be a "Celebrity" figure who can roll for leadership if there's three Teens on the team, or Scientists who can use Support on characters with the Armor keyword. Something like that. It could be done through SPs or if they bring feats back for Modern Age play.