I battle tested the 161 point Iron Man in a tournament level game...recap included

[Ironman44]

After some of the doom and gloom that I read about on this forum and Iron man's attack values I was a bit nervous going into my first 500 point game with the 161 point Iron Man.
My Team:
Iron man E
Captain America V
Hawkeye V
Scarlet Witch V
Moondragon U
Nightwing V
Mandroid R

The game was capture and hold the artifact for 10 turns. Board was outside with big buildings.

Opposing forces equaled my army as well as 2 other opposing armies of 500 points each led by Dr. Doom , a bunch of Doombots and Doomsday, Pyro, Sabertooth and another team led by a Thor Veteran, Nick Fury, Quasar, Black Panther, Wasp , Logan. Both players opposing me were experienced seasoned players. (There was constant outwiting by pairs of flying doombots hooking up with Doomsday's ability....it was a rough ride).

Turn #1

I set him up in the first turn by flying him in with moondragon and I walked up the mandroid unit adajacent with scarlet witch in sight . That gave me the possibility of 6 clixs of damage with a re- roll! One of the teams opposing me was cautious ,as expected, and generally was slow on the first turn protecting himself with a barrier.

Turn #2

Second turn Iron Man did a runing shot after carrying the mandroid unit and connected giving 4 clix of damage to a Logan figure.

Turn #3
Pushed and took a clix of damage in a tactical retreat from Doomsday and Thor no less.

Turn #4
Rested

Turn #5
Swung into action again with a running shot and the Mandroid unit in tow , connected again this time for 3 clixs of damage getting the final blow on the Logan fig (Hawkeye had done some damage to the fig as well on the previous turn).

Turn #6
Best Turn of the game for shell head. Pushed him to the top of a building carrying a fresh Hawkeye. Captain America used outwit to cancel the Veteran's Thor's invulnerability. Iron Man connects rolling a 10 and not needing the Scarlet Witch! Hawkeye connects as well both giving a combined total of 5 clix of damage on the Thunder God without invulnerability(Thor ultimately died a heroic death 2 turns later with a hawkeye arrow . This helped his team get the win later on but my team got Thor's victory points and almost the game because of it.....).

Turn #7
rested
Turn #8
chased figure with artifact
Turn #9
Pushed chasing figure with artifact
Turn#10
Rested.


All in all he was worth the points paid dealing out 9 clix of damage and positioning other teammates for even more damage. He was also instrumental on evacuating my force as well as himself early in the game at the hands of certaind defeat.
Of the 251 victory points my team earned , he delivered 9 clixs to those figs and helped deliver another 3 carrying figures into battle.

He was well worth the 161 points as I came within one roll of winning the game. The player next to me needed a 7 to hit and knock the artifact loose thus giving me the tie breaker because of victory points. He rolled a 6 and the game ended.

I love Iron man and he will be a mainstay on my teams.He never missed on an attack roll and was instrumental in placing my team near a victory on the last turn of the game against seasoned tournament level players.

[Noman]

Good to hear he may not be as bad as was first feared.

Looking forward to him and his friends arriving in the UK.

All the Best

Noman

[Fogs]

Ironman44 - TYVM!! All of us fans of Tony Stark will now breathe a little easier while we wait for XPlosion. I still can't wait to get Shell Head on the board!!

[Billy Jack]

excellent post IM, nice to see my thoughts of the red and gold avenger were correct. Thanks for posting this.

[Mongoose]

Sweet game. You rolled well though. I think the Veteran Iron Man has an appropriate attack value. The experienced version obviously did the job though. He is one extremely fast taxi.

[Ironman44]

Mongoose I rolled average. I think the miss conception is that EVERYBODY is running around with a 17 defense. I rolled a 10 but I also busted out a 5.

Here is what I rolled and the defenses I had to hit:

Turn # 2 (refer above to original post): 16 defense , Rolled 7 (average roll), total 16

Turn# 5 (refer above to orignal post): 12 defense, Rolled 5(low roll but the fact is I could hardly miss this beat up fig. Any roll practically would of worked), total 13

Turn# 6 (refer above to orignal post): 17 defense , Rolled 10(high roll ), total 18

[The Stinger]

This is the type of thing I was getting at in the other Iron Man thread.


I too have the E Version and I find him to be an extremely solid piece. If you play the piece before you judge the piece, you get a much better idea of what you are talking about.

On paper he looks mediocre in the AV, but he is a team player and as IM44 stated he had little trouble hitting his figures. 1 roll of 10 and the rest were average. Accounting for 9 clix himself, plus another 3 in carrying figures into battle, and evacuating teammates from harm. Thats 12 clix people.

He's definately solid. I think he's killer myself.

[TheLion]

... ironman44 played well and showed that IM - E can be used effectively. Since I have been vocal over my disappointment with the figure, I wanted to post and say so. I still think his point total, over his AV, is his biggest achilles heal.

I would like to see him used in a 400 point game where he is 40% of the build total, and in a 1 on 1 match as opposed to a three way battle.

I play a lot of 3-way battles and the dynamics of the play are a lot different, especially when you can count on your second opponent harrassing the third to help you get into position.

I hope IM44 can prove me wrong. I have all of the Avengers figures (including Black Widow :P), and love to play them, and I don't want to pass up on IM.

[Ironman44]

I will be playing the Veteran 189 point Iron Man in a 400 Point battle this next weekend and will provide a turn by turn recap.

I understand the dynamics of the 3 way battle as I was on receiving end of the squeeze (refer to turn #3 above).

Here is my line up for next week.

Iron ManV
Captain America V
Hawkeye V
Scarlet Witch R
Yellow Jacket R
mandroid Armor E

398 Points.

I might bring Cap down to E and raise Yellow Jacket to V. Otherwise that's the team.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Ironman44
Mongoose I rolled average. I think the miss conception is that EVERYBODY is running around with a 17 defense. I rolled a 10 but I also busted out a 5.

Here is what I rolled and the defenses I had to hit:

Turn # 2 (refer above to original post): 16 defense , Rolled 7 (average roll), total 16

Turn# 5 (refer above to orignal post): 12 defense, Rolled 5(low roll but the fact is I could hardly miss this beat up fig. Any roll practically would of worked), total 13

Turn# 6 (refer above to orignal post): 17 defense , Rolled 10(high roll ), total 18

I'm still not convinced ! a three way battle is very different from a one on one (like you said).
you had to roll 2 iffy rolls (a 7 and an 9) and got them, If not IM would have been toasted !
looking forward to your next "battle report" , but It just won't be as convincing as a 300 vs. 300 one on one match !

at least you had the common sence to add the Scarleth Witch.

[Mongoose]

I could have sworn that a 6 was the average roll??????

[Noman]

On 2 D6, the Average roll is 7.

...think about it...

AtB

Noman

[razorramon31]

Just would like to put my comments about this! In a three player game, running with an artifact, the rules are against the one holding the artifact. Two teams are after you. On a four on four what usually happens is that you end up with two one on one battles. One thing is to say that your I M exp, did well. Another is to talk about defeating Thor as if he was easy pickins. You forgot to mention the fact, that in that turn, Thor taxied Wasp who was holding the artifact away from Cap, who couldn't hit her! another fact not mentioned is that Thor had to leave himself exposed to in the open for such an attack- such is the proce of victory( in the end it was that courageous move to sacifice the best piece of the team that won the game). Another fact not mentioned is that yes IM taxied and him andthe team of Hawkeye with Cap outwitting gave Thor 5 clicks. But on the very next turn the god of tunder pushed himself to get into close range combat with IM and the rest of his squad. The preceeding turn, IM preceed to breakaway and leave so as not to engage Thor (who by the way was holding a dumpster) and left Hawkeye to the tender mercies of the Thunder god. Two rounds later after Thor had yet recieved more clicks from IM forces, decided to go lend the Wasp a hand and consequently got shot (in the back I might add) and finally was finished off! Least to say Hawkeye has made a terrible mistake, for as in weeks to come he wil not be an "active " fig, for more than three rounds. Actually three is to much we'll say two. I hope Hawkeye has a great dental plan, as he will surely need it. Have you ever heard MJOLNIR sing? No? Are you sure? Well, first you hear the sound of thunder and then, well then it's too late because you wake up in the ER at the hospital wondering what caused that numbing sensation- Oh it was Mjolnir separating your jaw from the rest of your head!!!!!!
So swears the Mighty son of Odin!

[the itsy bit]

the average roll (aboot 50%) is a 7
hard to hit is an 8
9+ Oh well let's just try it we're doomed anyways !

6- is like easy hits which only Boomerang could be able to miss ! :p

[CaptainCarl]

like the recap and cant wait to see the next recap with V IM

but i got to give you props for a themed team in a tourney go avengers to many times i see bullseye wasp firelord bane panther etc etc etc

playing themed is fun in my opinion and i try to play a themed team 75% of the time sometimes you just have to play with kewl pieces on the same team

and im glad to see hawkeye doin some damage same with ironman give them some clout i say

thecaptain

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by the itsy bit
the average roll (aboot 50%) is a 7
hard to hit is an 8
9+ Oh well let's just try it we're doomed anyways !

6- is like easy hits which only Boomerang could be able to miss ! :p

Hmmm. 7 is the average, but before you stated that it was an "iffy" roll.

and you count a 9 roll as doomed....

You seem to me like a conservative player who only goes after the sure thing. Thats all well and good, but I would think that you dont get as much joy out of hitting a figure and taking it out, because you only needed an average-to-low roll to do it. You probably kick your tires before you get in your vehicle to go somewhere too Ill bet, Cautious to a fault. Its only a game.

I get a lot more fun out of being in a situation where I need an 8 or 9 to hit, and Im like "Come on Iron Man! Lead me to victory! "
Then if I hit it, its a lot greater sense of satisfaction when you rip someone even though you needed a higher roll to do it. Especially if you end up KOing soemone when you do it. If I dont hit, Im not as disappointed because it was a higher than average roll I was attempting. But I wont just not attempt it because its a high number. Ill go for it!!

I can usually manage to hit the rolls of 8's and 9's, the only rolls I consider to be tough are double digits, 10-12.

Iron man just may not be for you sadly. Take a chance once in a while. Unless you want to spend 161 or 189 points to be chasing around medics and the like to get your "sure thing" hit. Me? I like the challenge, because if you miss, its like "hey man, I needed a 10 to hit, and I just didnt get it" Whereas if youre chasing down low defense guys and you miss, youre the laughing stock of the room.

[wonderboy8917]

Oh sure, Iron Man will do ok in a 400 or 500 pt game, but how well will he do in 300? Most tournies are played with 300 points and the marques are even less at 200pts. How can you expect to win when you're spending more than half your points on someone that will have to roll generally high to even hit?

[Ironman44]

RazorRaomn, welcome to the thread and your detailed decription of "Thor" I could of swore it was an Iron Man based conversation thus the slant towards Iron Man. At least I described your untimely death as "Heroic" and I did mention that Thor ultimately paid for your victory with his life.

But still you make idel threats at Hawkeye....

Wait Hawkeye's right here he is asking me something...yes...he's asking if you got his wooden arrow out of Thor's back? He would like to have it back and hang it in his trophy room.

(relax you did win after all)
;-)

[Orpheus]

Originally posted by wonderboy8917
Oh sure, Iron Man will do ok in a 400 or 500 pt game, but how well will he do in 300? Most tournies are played with 300 points and the marques are even less at 200pts. How can you expect to win when you're spending more than half your points on someone that will have to roll generally high to even hit?

Not only do I agree with you, but if I may say so, the opposing teams weren't representative of what IM44's team could have feared the most.


My Team:
Iron man E
Captain America V
Hawkeye V
Scarlet Witch V
Moondragon U
Nightwing V
Mandroid R


We now know that E I-M is good against other big figures. But come on, there were only 7 figures (and a leader) for 500 points !! On these figures, a few weren't useful for offense at all.
Just imagine a regular 500 points team, with an average 11 figures. What would IM do against Black Panther E(36)+Moondragon (70) + Spiral (56) for 162 points, when Spiral will twice hit a defenseless IM with claws in one turn (if he has a Probability Control in his team as you do, these claws will surely do some damage !!) ? What will happen if your greatest enemy, the Mandarin, controls IM at 12 pace (he only costs 141) and uses him to destroy the Mandroid ? What if Firelord is in the house ? See what I mean ? I say this without any ill will, but I just mean that your team isn't optimised enough in my book for tournament conditions.
I do not intend to insult your capability as a player, or your ability to judge the worth of a figure. You may be right, and E IM can be a killer ; but this thread just doesn't prove it to me.
I have no doubts that your opponents were good players, as you say so. But they chose to play high figures too. You didn't go against the best figures / teams in the game (no FL for instance). And therefore, cannot consider the character tested IMHO.

Thanks for your field-test. Please let us know if you run into more numerous, more optimised teams.

Oh, and don't forget : to Magneto, Iron-Man is just a stripper waiting for her clothes to be torn off...
;)


Orpheus

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by The Stinger


Hmmm. 7 is the average, but before you stated that it was an "iffy" roll.

and you count a 9 roll as doomed....

.. You probably kick your tires before you get in your vehicle to go somewhere too Ill bet, Cautious to a fault. Its only a game.

I get a lot more fun out of being in a situation where I need an 8 or 9 to hit, and Im like "Come on Iron Man! Lead me to victory! "
Then if I hit it, its a lot greater sense of satisfaction when you rip someone even though you needed a higher roll to do it. Especially if you end up KOing soemone when you do it. If I dont hit, Im not as disappointed because it was a higher than average roll I was attempting. But I wont just not attempt it because its a high number. Ill go for it!!


aren't we the one jumping to conclusions !:rolleyes:

Oh no, I said Doomed (in a heroclix forum where Doom is a great name BTW;) ) I'm sorry I'm not a politician and measure every word before I type it for fear that it just MIGHT be misunderstood.

well we all have to take the high rolls (8+) in games now don't we ?
I like it when I have to roll a 8/9 etc. and hit it !
But a 161/189 point costing fig would at least have a better then average chance of getting it is to much to ask ?

I guess you only play with figs that have 7 AV so you can make all rolls a high end one ?!
And in my first post I said: you had to roll 2 iffy rolls a 7 and a 9.
I said a 9 is a iffy roll too !!
If you do want to put words in my mouth at least tell it like it is.

9+, meaning 10,11,12 are rolls which you throw without relying on them hitting ("because your Doomed") !hmmm, reading your post you seem to agree with me there ?

7 is average (50%) so hitting is just landing on the good spots of the dice.:D
8 is hard to hit (9 too).

[proditor]

Well, it's supposed to be a bell curve. Meaning 8 should be just about as hard to hit as 6.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by The Stinger
You seem to me like a conservative player who only goes after the sure thing. Thats all well and good, but I would think that you dont get as much joy out of hitting a figure and taking it out, because you only needed an average-to-low roll to do it. You probably kick your tires before you get in your vehicle to go somewhere too Ill bet, Cautious to a fault. Its only a game.

I get a lot more fun out of being in a situation where I need an 8 or 9 to hit, and Im like "Come on Iron Man! Lead me to victory! "
Then if I hit it, its a lot greater sense of satisfaction when you rip someone even though you needed a higher roll to do it. Especially if you end up KOing soemone when you do it. If I dont hit, Im not as disappointed because it was a higher than average roll I was attempting. But I wont just not attempt it because its a high number. Ill go for it!!

I think your stuck on a point that everyone has moved past, and that's IM's AV. It's great that you get great satisfaction out of rolling well when you need to, but this constant bs about how great a risk taker you are is getting tiresome. It's great you play by the seat of your pants, we are all happy for you, but you aren't even being original. JonL in one of his interviews basically said the same thing you are, which was his answer to the Firelord issue. Taunt your opponent for using him because he is a crutch. You know what? I didn't buy that bs either. FL is a waste of points on a team and goes down faster than you can put him on the table. Around here, if you can figure a way to win with him (which most often doesn't happen, and admittedly I rarely see dupes) then great, but he is no crutch and has an obvious glass jaw, as do all front-loaded figures.

Now to the real point about the problem with IM, his point cost. For what you get for 161 or 189 points it appears you can do better (and that's with another Avenger, or is that a crutch?). Now I give ironman44 credit for posting his results, but it definitely has an asterisk next to it because of the format he played in. Now if he can be just as effective in a 300 or 400 point one on one game, when IM is a high percentage of your build total, that, he will be putting forht a more convincing argument. In the case of ironman44 next battle IM - V will be 47% of his build total. See the issue? If IM goes down ironman44 has lost almost half of his build total. If it was in a "Challenge of the Champions" format the game is about over. For 2 points less he could have had a Thor - V with a constant AV for his first 7 clix.

Now it's great that there are IM fans willing to test out this version and have the guts enough to post. I respect that. What I don't respect is a player that refuses to see the inherent weaknesses in a figure, and calls other players that point it out less creative players than he is, which at this point is all talk. Why don't you field test IM, along with ironman44 and prove the rest of us wrong?

[Ironman44]

ORPHEUS PLEASE READ

I am not sure how effective he would be in a 300 point game. Considering I spotted the Thor team nightwing (knocked out quick and early) he should do fine in a 400 point game.

Orpheus...I am scratching my head at what you said. I have to respectfully disagree about the team and the level of play. Points are points, and if you have 2 good players, The best tactics will win the day.

Some figs not useful on offense? huh? I am not sure which figs your refferering to, Nightwing can outwit any defenses and hit for 3 directly ....., Iron Man can drop 6 with the set up(mandroid aided) , Hawkey does 3 practically across the dial all these figures from 10 range and 8. All with the possibility of a second shot because of the Witch.
Spiral and Black panther should drop before they got near me(maybe not BP if placed correctly)!Later on in the game, after Nightwing is out of the game and Cap is a bit down but not out , Cap turns on his outwit to defeat defenses or for opportunistic play such as defeating a phase so a figure can not get away, Hakweye is still doing 3 from 10 range. Moondragon meanwhile has been controlling opposite team figs and making them shoot each other or hit each other while the figs are taking clix for push. Which ones were useless for offense? Not good for tournament level play? no........ they are plenty good. it's a different style of range based play that is all. A proven combined arms approach. I am not a heroclix "rookie" player orpheus I am more of a "veteran"

It's not all about offense (obviously read above and this team is FOR offense). By the way are all the scenarios in the tournaments you play "stand aside " scenarios? The test IS against the tougher figs. In a 500 point game , if you bring in 11 figs into our group your going to get beat more often than not. Half your group will be standing around with no actions (exception leadership roll or team ability). Even if you do have team ability , it is only move actions. 11 figs? c'mon man, the sweet spot is 2-3 over your action max. 8 figs is perfect for a 500 point game. I can accept the use of 11 figs as some rest while others are going but the game only last 10 turns average, better to push here and there with your best figs than having half a team not going all the time.

Some have brought up the 3 player artifact argument........that is an actual scenario.....there are legions of players who play 3 player games. 95% of all players DO NOT play in tournament one on one 300 point games.

Next week I am taking in vet Iron Man in a 400 point game. I'll post the recap. Also the scenario is not known before hand. It's randomly rolled. We have a dozen sceanrios that could come up.It's not a team built specifically for anyting except fun, but again, points are generally points, anything can and will happen in games.

Iron man V
Mandroid E
Captain America E
Hawkeye V
Yellow Jacket V
Scarlet Witch R

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by TheLion


What I don't respect is a player that refuses to see the inherent weaknesses in a figure, and calls other players that point it out less creative players than he is, which at this point is all talk. Why don't you field test IM, along with ironman44 and prove the rest of us wrong?

1st off Genius, I already posted here and in the other thread that I have the E Iron Man, HAVE playtested him in teams and find him to be a solid piece. How is that all talk? Hence my" PLAY THE PIECE BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE PIECE "remark. Or didnt that sink into your skull just yet? Until you have done the same, it would seem that you are the one out of place and are "All Talk"

How could I be rooting for Iron man to make the big roll on my team when I dont have him? Doesnt make much sense now does it? Ive played him in various situations, 300 pointers ARE tough, but V Thor is tough to field in a 300 pointer as well. 400 and 500 points are where you can really get it going with him. I could do as IM44 did, and post results of a game, but then someone like you will be the one to point out something they didnt like, and it would be the same argument all over again, especially if I happened to lose that particular game.

But it seems to me that people like you simply want, or need something to complain about. You will never be happy. You say Iron man is overcosted. Ill bet you are one of the people that thinks that Vet Firelord isnt undercosted at 97 points for what he can do. Funny, every time I see a Firelord team, it is automatically judged to be a "Cheese" team. Firelord IS a crutch. JonL says he is, ahh...but you dont believe JonL. I forgot that you said that you didnt buy into his BS. I think the guy knows what he's talking about, as close to the game as he is. But, if its not the answer you wanted to hear, It MUST be wrong, or in your case, considered to be BS right? Much like my playstyle of not always going after the lower defesed guys. Sorry I dont play the way that you do, what was I thinking?

Secondly, if you have indeed moved past the AV subject, why are you still going on about how for 2 less points you can get Vet Thor "Who holds consistent AV"? Doesnt sound like youve even budged, let alone moved on.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. You obviously arent going to move on your stance about his Cost and Low AV, and Im definately not going to move on mine considering I have the E version, Played the E Version, and have seen how effective he can be for the points. So, I guess you will have to wait until you acquire the piece yourself before you can even begin to understand what IM44 and myself are trying to convey here.

Until then, I leave you to your speculations and skepticism.

[Orpheus]

Originally posted by Ironman44
ORPHEUS PLEASE READ

I am not sure how effective he would be in a 300 point game. Considering I spotted the Thor team nightwing (knocked out quick and early) he should do fine in a 400 point game.

Orpheus...I am scratching my head at what you said. I have to respectfully disagree about the team and the level of play. Points are points, and if you have 2 good players, The best tactics will win the day.

Some figs not useful on offense? huh? I am not sure which figs your refferering to, Nightwing can outwit any defenses and hit for 3 directly ....., Iron Man can drop 6 with the set up(mandroid aided) , Hawkey does 3 practically across the dial all these figures from 10 range and 8. All with the possibility of a second shot because of the Witch.
Spiral and Black panther should drop before they got near me(maybe not BP if placed correctly)!Later on in the game, after Nightwing is out of the game and Cap is a bit down but not out , Cap turns on his outwit to defeat defenses or for opportunistic play such as defeating a phase so a figure can not get away, Hakweye is still doing 3 from 10 range. Moondragon meanwhile has been controlling opposite team figs and making them shoot each other or hit each other while the figs are taking clix for push. Which ones were useless for offense? Not good for tournament level play? no........ they are plenty good. it's a different style of range based play that is all. A proven combined arms approach. I am not a heroclix "rookie" player orpheus I am more of a "veteran"

It's not all about offense (obviously read above and this team is FOR offense). By the way are all the scenarios in the tournaments you play "stand aside " scenarios? The test IS against the tougher figs. In a 500 point game , if you bring in 11 figs into our group your going to get beat more often than not. Half your group will be standing around with no actions (exception leadership roll or team ability). Even if you do have team ability , it is only move actions. 11 figs? c'mon man, the sweet spot is 2-3 over your action max. 8 figs is perfect for a 500 point game. I can accept the use of 11 figs as some rest while others are going but the game only last 10 turns average, better to push here and there with your best figs than having half a team not going all the time.

Some have brought up the 3 player artifact argument........that is an actual scenario.....there are legions of players who play 3 player games. 95% of all players DO NOT play in tournament one on one 300 point games.

Next week I am taking in vet Iron Man in a 400 point game. I'll post the recap. Also the scenario is not known before hand. It's randomly rolled. We have a dozen sceanrios that could come up.It's not a team built specifically for anyting except fun, but again, points are generally points, anything can and will happen in games.

Iron man V
Mandroid E
Captain America E
Hawkeye V
Yellow Jacket V
Scarlet Witch R

Hello IM44,

I'm glad you didn't take my remarks badly, and do not consider you as a beginner (I don't know you, and don't judge people I don't know from one post !!).

When I speak of non-offensive figures, I'm mainly talking about the Scarlet witch of course, and a little of Cap because I find the figure useless except for his leadership (but then I hate the character too, except in Ultimates, so...).

I have won a 400 points tournament where I had one figure too many : I had 11 of them !! 10 would have been fine. I met a player who had eradicated all the Marvel teams with his D.C. team. He had Darkseid, Batman, Desaad, so that was 3 Outwits to my lone BP. He also had Steel, a flyer (Hawkman I think) and a 6th figure. I made 300 / 0 in both games (including the 4-players final) where we met !!! Why ? Because I had more figures, with one leader and one free-moving taxi, because I had Sabretooth and Elektra able to kill a much bigger figure in no time, because Pyro voulc help me deal with the approach of the enemy and lead the attacks. I had too many figures (Quicksilver was mainly useless, except in the Artefact scenario) because I had decided at the last posible minute not to play Firelord (too cheesy) and to replace him with two figures. 10 would have been fine !! In 300 points I recently played 8 figures, among which one leader and 2 free-movers, and made only second against a friend with the same kind of team, because I made mistakes, and maybe his team was a little more offensive and less move-oriented than mine (and he's a fine player too). From my experience, these are good dosages. I won last week's 300 points tournament with a 6-figures D.C. team, to my great surprise and with a little luck in meeting the right opponents ; there were some more optimised Marvel Teams (300 is hard for D.C., few good choice in small figures...) but played by Rookie and Experts, and most of the Vets tried weirder combinations. But if my friend, myself, or any Vet had been playing the kind of team I'm talking about, I would barely have made the 3 firsts.

So it is respectfully that I maintain my position : if I were to play Iron Man (and I will surely play the V version, how could I resist that ?!?!) :cool: , I will surround him with lots of small and useful figures : BP, Pyro or Avalanche, Bullseye, Vulture, Shadowcat if I have here by then, etc. I'll certainly have less figs than what I usually play, but I guess I'll have great fun with the Golden Avenger !!!

But then, as I usually say, we all play as we like, and maybe what works for me won't for you, and vice / versa.

Have great fun with your team,

Orpheus

[guanoe]

i not sure whether he is worth 161 pts. he's exp version only have an attack of 9, it aint very good. very hard to land attacks on powerful figs.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by The Stinger


1st off Genius, I already posted here and in the other thread that I have the E Iron Man, HAVE playtested him in teams and find him to be a solid piece. How is that all talk? Hence my" PLAY THE PIECE BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE PIECE "remark. Or didnt that sink into your skull just yet? Until you have done the same, it would seem that you are the one out of place and are "All Talk"

How could I be rooting for Iron man to make the big roll on my team when I dont have him? Doesnt make much sense now does it? Ive played him in various situations, 300 pointers ARE tough, but V Thor is tough to field in a 300 pointer as well. 400 and 500 points are where you can really get it going with him. I could do as IM44 did, and post results of a game, but then someone like you will be the one to point out something they didnt like, and it would be the same argument all over again, especially if I happened to lose that particular game.

But it seems to me that people like you simply want, or need something to complain about. You will never be happy. You say Iron man is overcosted. Ill bet you are one of the people that thinks that Vet Firelord isnt undercosted at 97 points for what he can do. Funny, every time I see a Firelord team, it is automatically judged to be a "Cheese" team. Firelord IS a crutch. JonL says he is, ahh...but you dont believe JonL. I forgot that you said that you didnt buy into his BS. I think the guy knows what he's talking about, as close to the game as he is. But, if its not the answer you wanted to hear, It MUST be wrong, or in your case, considered to be BS right? Much like my playstyle of not always going after the lower defesed guys. Sorry I dont play the way that you do, what was I thinking?

Secondly, if you have indeed moved past the AV subject, why are you still going on about how for 2 less points you can get Vet Thor "Who holds consistent AV"? Doesnt sound like youve even budged, let alone moved on.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. You obviously arent going to move on your stance about his Cost and Low AV, and Im definately not going to move on mine considering I have the E version, Played the E Version, and have seen how effective he can be for the points. So, I guess you will have to wait until you acquire the piece yourself before you can even begin to understand what IM44 and myself are trying to convey here.

Until then, I leave you to your speculations and skepticism.

Wow, maybe you should try to DISCUSS why you don't agree with other people, Stinger instead of attacking me and the others personally ?!

[TheLion]

Originally posted by The Stinger


1st off Genius, I already posted here and in the other thread that I have the E Iron Man, HAVE playtested him in teams and find him to be a solid piece. How is that all talk? Hence my" PLAY THE PIECE BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE PIECE "remark. Or didnt that sink into your skull just yet? Until you have done the same, it would seem that you are the one out of place and are "All Talk"

How could I be rooting for Iron man to make the big roll on my team when I dont have him? Doesnt make much sense now does it? Ive played him in various situations, 300 pointers ARE tough, but V Thor is tough to field in a 300 pointer as well. 400 and 500 points are where you can really get it going with him. I could do as IM44 did, and post results of a game, but then someone like you will be the one to point out something they didnt like, and it would be the same argument all over again, especially if I happened to lose that particular game.

But it seems to me that people like you simply want, or need something to complain about. You will never be happy. You say Iron man is overcosted. Ill bet you are one of the people that thinks that Vet Firelord isnt undercosted at 97 points for what he can do. Funny, every time I see a Firelord team, it is automatically judged to be a "Cheese" team. Firelord IS a crutch. JonL says he is, ahh...but you dont believe JonL. I forgot that you said that you didnt buy into his BS. I think the guy knows what he's talking about, as close to the game as he is. But, if its not the answer you wanted to hear, It MUST be wrong, or in your case, considered to be BS right? Much like my playstyle of not always going after the lower defesed guys. Sorry I dont play the way that you do, what was I thinking?

Secondly, if you have indeed moved past the AV subject, why are you still going on about how for 2 less points you can get Vet Thor "Who holds consistent AV"? Doesnt sound like youve even budged, let alone moved on.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree here. You obviously arent going to move on your stance about his Cost and Low AV, and Im definately not going to move on mine considering I have the E version, Played the E Version, and have seen how effective he can be for the points. So, I guess you will have to wait until you acquire the piece yourself before you can even begin to understand what IM44 and myself are trying to convey here.

Until then, I leave you to your speculations and skepticism.

So post the results tough guy, or are they not what you want people to see?

And as to Firelord, never use him, and I think he's a waste of points for how easy he goes down. Your the one who keeps bringing him up, maybe it's because you lose to him a lot? Maybe because it's easy to compare the two because they are both front-loaded figures? Whatever it is you sure have a firelord fixation...

And as for JonL's repsonse, sorry but it is BS. The figure isn't that good and the taunting of a player for using him is a waste of time.

Also, I have no respect for a player who can't see the obvious weaknesses in a figure, and seriously doubt that you will ever post any results of your IM games, and if you did they would probably be pure fiction anyway.

[NateTG]

Originally posted by proditor
Well, it's supposed to be a bell curve. Meaning 8 should be just about as hard to hit as 6.

It's as hard to roll exactly an 8 as it is to roll exactly a 6.

But when you're rolling to hit, then the roll to hit a 6 is 6 or more and the roll to hit an 8 is 8 or more, so, the odds to hit a 6 or better are 26/36 (72%) and the roll to hit 8 or better is 10/36 (28%). That's a large difference.

Also, the odds of hitting when you need a 7 are 21/36 (58%), which is significantly better than 50% to hit.

If you take R Iron Man(117 Points) against V Firelord(97 Points), and give Iron Man the first attack, and you're willing to push FL, then Iron Man dies on FL's second shot more than 70% of the time:

30/36 (Chance that IM misses first shot)
35/36 (Chance that FL hist first shot if IM missed)
33/33 (Chance that IM misses if FL hit after IM missed)
35/36 (Chance that FL K.O.'s after IM has only missed, and FL hit once)
Total probablility:
(30*35*33*35)/36^4=1212750/1679616 => 72.2%
Note that this is not the probability that FL wins, bt only the probability that FL wins on turn 2. The actual win percentage for FL is higher.

Veteran Iron Man (189 Points) has a 57% chance of surviving the first three shots, but he costs nearly twice as much as V FL, and V IM still dies, without hitting back, more than 75 % of the time if FL gets the first shot.

Firelord may be an unfair comparison, but Rookie Iron Man loses more than he wins against Veteran Cyclops who costs about 40 points less, if Cyclops gets the first shot.

For the price of Rookie Iron Man, you can get 2 Veteran Storms who (together):
1. Have longer reach: because of Taxi/Shoot, and because they have 10 range
2. Are more durable because there's two of them, and because they have higher defense.
3. Have a higher starting attack: 10 vs. 8
4. Aren't push bait because they cost about 50 points each.

[Mournblade]

Originally posted by NateTG
... stuff....

And there's a man that took statistics in college!

Which is why I think my wife likes HeroClix.

[FanBoy13]

Wow, it sure does seem like you people have a really hard time with basic probability theory. Let me break it down for you, since there seems to be a lot of completely wrong stuff being posted here.

The following are the odds of rolling a particular number OR HIGHER. So, for example, the odds of rolling 2 or higher are 100% - it's impossible to roll lower than 2. Here it is, folks:

3 or higher: 97.2%
4 or higher: 91.7%
5 or higher: 83.3%
6 or higher: 72.2%
7 or higher: 58.3%
8 or higher: 41.7%
9 or higher: 27.8%
10 or higher: 16.7%
11 or higher: 8.3%
12: 2.8%

So, when your Iron Man has a 9 attack, and he's facing a 16 defense, you have to roll 7 or higher, which means you have a 58.3% of succedding. Simple, eh?

[razorramon31]

First of all in defense of IM 44, It seems like to many of you go in with two versions of the same fig. There are many ways of playing this game. Our "house rules" up to this point have been fairly strict. And as such makes it difficult to make competitive teams. Ther's alot of Strategics involved, and we roll for random scenarios all the time. Believe me you go up against a one one"winner take all scenario" and the out comes will shock you with IM 44's team! I guarrantee a solid thrashing! obviously a 200 point scenario is out of the question for an exp or vet IM but it would be that way for alot of figs i.e. Doom, Ultron, Thor, and the list goes on. 300 points still capable of putting one such fig although the risks are high! That is what the game is about-fun-rolling dice is a chance in it's own right. The fact that IM 44 chooses to sacrifice that many points to one fig shows a complete confidence in his abilities, not ignorance in team building. All of you out there who mix teams just for the "point" value are mssing something. Teaming up with a theme is a variant which should be appreciated, not put down because "you" are not willing to take those kind of risks to play! You're only worried about winning, perhaps you should stick to Mage Knight, or Battle teck where you can have 2 or 3 of the same figs and it doesn't make a difference. As for me and my friends we'll stick to one fig on a team ideal which to me represents a tru version of the game!
I mean really I can just imagine going to play and my opponent chooses to have an rookie,esp, and vet of BP and 2 diferent versions of Storm so tha he can round out his team- to me that is lame, really lame. I would love to see in a comic book the Avengers taking on the Masters of Evil, and the writers put in a vet Cap with his WWII unique version! What a joke. Sure a scenario with duplicates can be interesting, heck that's what this game is about- Imagination, but to faithfully field a team with 2 BP, 2 Storms, 2 Logans, and 2 She Hulks, is pretty lame indeed. I give more credit to some one trying to make a team up with at least diferent figs on his team or even strapping a shield medic on Thor's back than playing "the duplicating game". Before you make negative statements about IM 44 and his strategy, why don't you trying playing like this first: Pick a team (no duplicates!), then randomly roll a scenario, then roll to see where on the board you set up. Then play it out ( if you have the guts), then and I mean THEN critizice IM 44. Believe me it's alot easier to pick a team when you know what you are going to be playing then it is when you don't! That's the point! If I know that i'm going to play let's say the"artifact" scenario, then of course I would want to put on my team "phasers", barriers, Supersonic speed, ect.! Now try that team in a winner take all in an out door terrain, against IM vet. hawkeye, and the rest and whatch IM 44 pick off youre "speedsters" like there's no tomorow! That's the point of IM 44- pick your team, Random Scenarios, Random Playing fields, Random set ups and limited picking of figs. That's dificult, very dificult ! So put try it out then put your money where your mouth is! Oh, that's right you can't right now, because your foot is in your mouth! there's no room for anything else!
IM 44, this Avenger stands with thee!!!!!

[TheLion]

Originally posted by razorramon31
A lot of blah, blah, blah...


You know, the group I play with uses random scenarios exlusively, so I don't think you have hit on anything unique. Also, my group uses random maps, so again, you are not unique, and I agree it makes for a more interesting game. What I don't understand is if you question IM's point cost to AV effectiveness it automatically means you advocate dupes or Firelord, or you aren't a risk taker. It's statments like that that makes me question your ability o play, if you always make that assumption. "You don't use Iron Man or question the effectiveness of the figure then you must use Firelord dupe teams, and don't understand the comic book purist way of playing." Total BS.

Tell you what, if you were all such great strategists (real Heroclix Kasparovs) then no team would bother you.

I think most people were impressed that IM44 posted his results and agreed that he is a good player, but wanted to see Iron Man's effectiveness in a 400 point game.

But, I have to question IM44's confidence in his 400 point team if he is including a Scarlet Witch in the team build. Makes me wonder if he wants the PC for those critical rolls that he needs to make.

[NateTG]

Originally Posted by Razormarron31

That's the point of IM 44- pick your team, Random Scenarios, Random Playing fields, Random set ups and limited picking of figs.


Gee, why not just make it a randomly selected team as well?

Whether a figure is usefull depends on the play environment. For example, medics are much more powerful in last-man-standing play than they are in 10 turn limit games. If you say that Iron Man is usefull in the non-standard rules that you play by, that's nice, but it doesn't really adress the more popular issues.

There are several questions about the Iron Man fig that are being asked:

1. Is he a competitive figure in a constructed environment? That is, is Iron Man playable in constructed cutthroat play. The answer is no. There are other figures that do what he does cheaper and better.

2. Does he make sense in draft play (e.g. Marquee)? The answer to this one is yes, even in 200 point play, V Iron man has potential to be a great piece in booster draft competition. He provides great range, mobility, durability and damage causing ability. Couple him with a cheap medic, and you have a viable team for sealed competition.

3. Is he competitive in Xplosion-only play? We won't know until we've seen the full Xplosion list.

4. Does he make sense in themed play? Yes. Since he's the only shell-head that's officially available, he's going to see play in themed armies.

5. Does he make sense in semi-competitive themed play? This is asking whether it makes sense to have him in an avenger themed army that you're taking to a tournament, and the answer is a resounding no. He is quite handily outperformed by Thor who is also an Avenger, and Dr.Doom who would fit in the "mechanical suits" team. Are there scenarios where he's better than either of the other two? Probably not.

6. Is this an accurate representation of Iron Man? Dunno, there were quite a number of Iron Men.

Personally I would have liked to see the following:

R Iron Man - No flight, move of 4, low defense, low attack, low movement, low damage, invulnerability all the way down. This figure represents the original Iron Man armor -- a walking pacemaker/iron lung.

E Iron Man - Flight, Invulnerability, Range 4, 2 Damage, Force Blast (Repulsors anyone?), 9 or 10 starting attack. 8 Movement to start.

V Iron Man - Flight, Invulnerability, Range 6, one click of Running Shot, one click of Charge, Force Blast, perhaps a click or two of RCE, Outwit, or Perplex. 10 Movement to start, 10-11 attack, 3 Damage.

[NateTG]

Originally posted by TheLion
But, I have to question IM44's confidence in his 400 point team if he is including a Scarlet Witch in the team build. Makes me wonder if he wants the PC for those critical rolls that he needs to make.

I think it makes sense to have PC on a team, if only to deal with critical failures, and the opponent's critical hits. Of course, the maximum benefit from PC is when the odds are 50/50, so if you're already playing with PC, you might as well use it.

[quixotequest]

Who needs to take Statistics in college to nail that concept? Did all of you go to public school? :D

[NateTG]

Originally posted by quixotequest
Who needs to take Statistics in college to nail that concept? Did all of you go to public school? :D

I did. ;)

And what I did is probability, not statistics, which is why it's so easy to understand.

For those of you whose eyes glazed over:

V Firelord vs R Iron Man:
More than 3/4 of the time, Firelord kills Iron Man before Iron Man hits.

V Firelord vs. V Iron Man
More than 1/2 of the time, Firelord kills Iron Man before Iron Man hits.

V Cyclops vs. V Iron Man
50/50 fight if Cyclops gets the first shot.

[Ironman44]

I wish that no one takes offense to my post but I have to get it off my chest so I apologize in advance for being a bit rude and arrogant.

Guys I have been fairly respectful but now I have to sit back and laugh at some of the postings. the most ridicoulous BY FAR has to be the one on one comparisons....are you guys joking?

Who the heck plays one on one? The game is DESIGNED for combined arms play. It is ludicrous to make these comparisons. If you make the same comparison with Firelord and 90% of the figures on a one on one you get the same results. that's silly, that's not real playing.

Another silly post is the Iron man rookie rants...who was talking about Iron man rookie? I think that figure blows chunks. I am not just a mindless fan boy. I undestand play. IM 161 E, is a solid piece in a combined arms army. Firelord shows up and I will have TWO chances to drop 6 clixs on him with the team I field, he better better bring his friends along....are you guys joking with the comparisons of one on one...what is that? In a real game I have dropped Firelord in TWO turns. Obviously not one on one but in a real game with multiple figs.

To answer THELION , I use Scarlet Witch for the same reason I use Hawkeye and Iron Man because they form a core of my favorite team "The West Coast Avengers".

I guess I might be a Heroclix kasparov after all! I do play tournament level play and I do win with my silly teams ! Just ask Razorray who is in my group and has witnessed it.(hey everybody talks a big game on the forums but I at least have witnesses my group is composed of 35+ year old players who have been playing games since the late 70s, we're not 13 year olds talking smack, the tournaments run in our region are a joke compared to the level of play I am up against every week).

My opinion is that Iron man is a GREAT fig for combined arms.

WOW ! I will still post my results next week, good or bad.

I would like to say to everyone that this is a friendly discussion, let's not take it to seriously.

[TheDarkKnight]

I am sorry if I missed this but does anyone know what Ironman's stats are. I mean 1 of you has one from Mega Con. Dont try and hide. If we know then all rumors are gone and we just have facts.

[TheLion]

Originally posted by Ironman44
Another silly post is the Iron man rookie rants...who was talking about Iron man rookie? I think that figure blows chunks. I am not just a mindless fan boy. I undestand play. IM 161 E, is a solid piece in a combined arms army. Firelord shows up and I will have TWO chances to drop 6 clixs on him with the team I field, he better better bring his friends along....are you guys joking with the comparisons of one on one...what is that? In a real game I have dropped Firelord in TWO turns. Obviously not one on one but in a real game with multiple figs.

... again and again and again with the Firelord. There must be some Freudian correllation. Iron Man = Firelord, Firelord = Iron Man. Iron Man players are subconsiously afraid of flame cheese. :rolleyes:

[Ironman44]

TheLion-

I was reffering to people posting about Firelord. Read my post correctly. I was saying the same thing you are basically of people bringing up Firelord.

Darknight click on the warriors section and then click on the Xplosion symbol and look up the figs. it's right here in the forum.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Ironman44
I wish that no one takes offense to my post but I have to get it off my chest so I apologize in advance for being a bit rude and arrogant.

Guys I have been fairly respectful but now I have to sit back and laugh at some of the postings. the most ridicoulous BY FAR has to be the one on one comparisons....are you guys joking?

Who the heck plays one on one? The game is DESIGNED for combined arms play. It is ludicrous to make these comparisons. If you make the same comparison with Firelord and 90% of the figures on a one on one you get the same results. that's silly, that's not real playing.

Another silly post is the Iron man rookie rants...who was talking about Iron man rookie? I think that figure blows chunks. I am not just a mindless fan boy. I undestand play. IM 161 E, is a solid piece in a combined arms army. Firelord shows up and I will have TWO chances to drop 6 clixs on him with the team I field, he better better bring his friends along....are you guys joking with the comparisons of one on one...what is that? In a real game I have dropped Firelord in TWO turns. Obviously not one on one but in a real game with multiple figs.


My opinion is that Iron man is a GREAT fig for combined arms.

WOW ! I will still post my results next week, good or bad.

I would like to say to everyone that this is a friendly discussion, let's not take it to seriously.

first off..
you haven't said 1 rude or arrogant word on this whole thread !

second: by one on one play I mean (and I'm sure many others) 1 player fighting vs. 1 other player in a 300 vs 300 point game.
NOT clicking FL down and then clicking Iron Man down.

three way games: believe you me I play lots of games and in all those games it's 2 vs 1.
why because when the 1 player is to strong (like playing FL) he gets his FL shot up first, then when another player grows to strong because of that, thesame thing happens (even in a game with a different objective then killing points).
It's the nature of the 3-way game that's fine (it adds spice) but a one on one (1 vs.1 player) or 4-way game is more balanced overall (2 vs. 2 players).

Darkknight..
ALL the figs stats are up in the warriors section(, and so we can make comparisons/educated guesses how figs will play without having to have them in the hand).