300 point Sentinel, Who Would Win?

[Puuka]

ok, going one on one, who would win?
Infinity Challenge
icS01 V Sentinel Mark VII
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 10 :bolt:
Points: 300
Keywords: Future, Robot
m-winga-fistd-shieldg-fist121116410101641010164101016381016381016379152791527915210111738101627915158151581515815.5815.481 5.4815.KOKOKOKOKOKOKOKO
The Sentinel with an Infinity Challenge set symbol should use the Advanced Sentinel Rules (http://www.mobilehorror.com/advancedSentinelRules.pdf).
:star:MULTIATTACK Give this character a power action. It can use two free actions. These free actions can be power actions that include an attack, close combat actions, or ranged combat actions, though free actions gained from this power can’t be used to activate this power. Resolve the first free action before giving it the second. Modify this character’s damage value by -1 to a minimum of 1. This character can’t use feats when using this power. This ability can’t be countered.

Some of the special rules that were relevant
The Advanced Sentinel is governed by the following general rules:

It is not affected by Exploit Weakness, Force Blast, Incapacitate, Mind
Control, Plasticity, Poison, Psychic Blast, Shape Change, Steal Energy,
Support, or any team ability or effect that reproduces those powers.
It can’t be captured.

Actions and Pushing
The Advanced Sentinel can be given only one action per turn, regardless of its point value or the build total for the battle.
An Advanced Sentinel’s player can push it on any number of successive turns, even if it already has two action tokens on it; the Advanced Sentinel will still take pushing damage. If an Advanced Sentinel is not given an action on its player’s turn, remove all action tokens from it.

DOFP
dr009e E Advanced Sentinel: Beta-7
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 10 :bolt::bolt:
Points: 300
Keywords: Future, Robot
m-winga-fistd-shieldg-fist1010173891639916388152891636815368143681426714258142581325912249122410122411111KOKOKOKO
:star:MULTIATTACK Give this character a power action. It can use two free actions. These free actions can be power actions that include an attack, close combat actions, or ranged combat actions, though free actions gained from this power can’t be used to activate this power. Resolve the first free action before giving it the second. Modify this character’s damage value by -1 to a minimum of 1. This character can’t use feats when using this power. This ability can’t be countered.

Some of the special rules that were relevant
The Advanced Sentinel is governed by the following general rules:

It is not affected by Exploit Weakness, Force Blast, Incapacitate, Mind
Control, Plasticity, Poison, Psychic Blast, Shape Change, Steal Energy,
Support, or any team ability or effect that reproduces those powers.
It can’t be captured.

Actions and Pushing
The Advanced Sentinel can be given only one action per turn, regardless of its point value or the build total for the battle.
An Advanced Sentinel’s player can push it on any number of successive turns, even if it already has two action tokens on it; the Advanced Sentinel will still take pushing damage. If an Advanced Sentinel is not given an action on its player’s turn, remove all action tokens from it.

GSX
#gsxG01 V Sentinel Mark II
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 10 :bolt::bolt:
Points: 300
Keywords: Robot
m-winga-fistd-indomitableg-fist10111741011184101217491118391017391017381016389163891638915388153791527915279142610142KOKOKOKOSp eed - Hunter-Killer: When Sentinel MArk II KO's a character, after actions resolve remove an action token from it. If the KO'd character possessed the Brotherhood of Mutants or X-Men keyword or team ability, remove all action tokens instead.
Defense - Instant Adaptation: Modify Sentinel MArk II's defense value by +1 for each previous attack targetting it this turn.
Damage - Incinerate: If Sentinel Mark II rolls doubles with a successful attack roll, the damage dealt by that attack is penetrating and can't be evaded.

[Mr.x_20xx]

Unless there is an update, the DoFP wins, simply because of capture. If it comes down to brute force, probably the new one.

[Puuka]

The way the dial is set up, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't 3 levels for it, or they had been looking at setting it up that way.
Wishing they had. I think it would have made it a more versatile figure.

[Bat-Phreak]

Unless there is an update, the DoFP wins, simply because of capture. If it comes down to brute force, probably the new one.

The Advanced Sentinel rules for Capture specify only standard figures may be captured.

The only advantage the older Sentinels have over Sentinel Mk II is Multi-Attack, but if Mk II is on Invulnerability there are many clicks where the Mk VII and Beta-7 cannot damage Mk II during a Multi-Attack without rolling a critical hit.

GXS has better stats, better power set, and (most importantly) Indomitable. Not taking pushing damage is huge.

At this point, however, Mk II cannot take an Action if the fig already has 2 Action tokens. This limits how many consecutive turns Mk II can attack, but against other Sentinels this is not a significant constraint.

As we find out more about Mk II (if it can use Multi-Attack, does it have any immunities, etc) it can only get better. Even without those additional features, however, Mk II is still head-and-shoulders above Mk VII and Beta-7.

[red king]

I have to agree. The new one is much better than the older ones.

[FrankCastle80]

I gotta go with GSX. If there's a second place running, IC

[sol]

Wow...I really forgot how craptastic those older Sentinels were.

[KillerSavage]

I'm going to have to give this some thought. GSX has a better dial without a doubt. Muti attack and pushing "every" turn could give the old school versions the advantage. I'll have to come back to this later.

[JRS4]

Wow...I really forgot how craptastic those older Sentinels were.

That may be true, but it never stopped me from running them!!

If for no other reason then the love of Giant Robot Action!!!

[sol]

That may be true, but it never stopped me from running them!!

If for no other reason then the love of Giant Robot Action!!!

Yeah, i've played em, too. However, the hideousness of those dials when compared the the GSX one should be obvious to anyone. How could anybody vote for those?

[MistahJustice]

DoFP might give the Mark II some trouble to begin with, but the Mark II has the staying power and fire power to outlast the DoFP. And you can't forget about the regen. Mark II has a way to come back if the DoFP gets the drop on him.

I can't wait to see what the blue one does. S'gonna be awesome!

[jackstar7]

Why can't I vote Iron Man/War Machine?

GSX wins in my estimation.

[Hero_guy]

Yeah, i've played em, too. However, the hideousness of those dials when compared the the GSX one should be obvious to anyone. How could anybody vote for those?

I think the fact that they have Multi-attack and can push indefinitely while GSX can only act 2 out of every 3 turns has something to do with those votes. Its actually pretty close between the DOFP and GSX. That fight will all depend on who gets the first hit in. If DOFP does, good luck to GSX trying to hit a 19def with 10AV or worse (remember multi-attack, RS and PB at 2dmg each attack). And even up against the Mk VII, GSX will need more 8+ rolls to hit than GSX and with only 1 attack/roll per action vs 2 attacks/rolls for MK VII, the odds are Mk VII will hit more often. Just a matter of how much more often.

It seems to me that GSX will win more matches than it loses, but it will probably be something more around 60/40 or 65/35.

[eagletsi]

No question the GSX would win hands down. I have both of the older ones and have played them alot.

GSX has no multiattack. Big deal. It has Invulnerable and Indomitable. Plus it's defense and attack values are much higher. This is one of those fights where the GSX wins almost 99.9% of the times, baring some lucky rolls by on of the others.

[Clicky]

GSX for sure.

I'm assuming the battle is a free for all (both versions of Older Sentinel would be attacking one another as well, as opposed to ganging up on the GSX model)

Points-wise, GSX is a steal for its versatility and late-dial regen which, when coupled with indom, may be enough to let this guy take a lickin' and keep on clickin'!

[No-Name]

A Colossal with Indomitable. Scary.

Remember - Colossals can push constantly. Every single turn. That is what makes the Cosmic Colossals so dangerous - they go every single turn without taking damage for it.

The only difference between Cosmic Colossal and Sentinel Mark II is that you can Outwit Sentinel Mark II. That means he is going every single turn, relentlessly punishing you for going up against him, and he's not taking any penalties for that.

Neither of the other Sentinels, espeically not Infinity Challenge's, can compete with that.

[Rurouni KJS]

A Colossal with Indomitable. Scary.

Remember - Colossals can push constantly. Every single turn.

That's not so. :g-colossal: only grants the abilities (and liabilities) seen on the Blackest Night PAC. Incessant pushing is an ability given out on a piece-by-piece basis according to each Colossal's particular rules.

Consequently, the older Sentinels may have a slight edge there, as they do have that pushing ability. But GSX's :d-indomitable: more than evens that out — he can push without taking damage, while their non-stop pushes come with the usual pushing damage.

[Hero_guy]

A Colossal with Indomitable. Scary.

Remember - Colossals can push constantly. Every single turn. That is what makes the Cosmic Colossals so dangerous - they go every single turn without taking damage for it.

The only difference between Cosmic Colossal and Sentinel Mark II is that you can Outwit Sentinel Mark II. That means he is going every single turn, relentlessly punishing you for going up against him, and he's not taking any penalties for that.

Neither of the other Sentinels, espeically not Infinity Challenge's, can compete with that.

Incorrect. Colossals don't automatically get to take an action every turn. All the ones that came before GSX can do so because their rules specifically state they can. Otherwise they follow the same HC rules that any other figure does.

Also, when I voted I was under the impression that it would be 1v1 matches and not a free for all. I mean it makes no sense to judge a free for all. If, every match, the two older Sentinels take the first shot at the MKII, it would go down faster than a $2 who....er......faster than a broken elevator. Same would apply if any of them were targetted by the first attack of the other two. How can you fairly judge this 3 way match?

I'd also like to point out that, while the new MkII would win a majority of 1v1 matches against the other two, it woul probably do worse against well rounded teams due to lack of Multi-attack, capture and the ability to take an action every turn. Much like Starro decimates teams and gets crushed by most of the other colossals.

[Crazy Bee]

In my experience colossal battles all come down to the first hit.

But GSXM Sentinel has good defensive powers early on, and higher damage output along with regen to allow for a comeback. Especially in the end game, assuming a similar hit miss ratio for each Sentinal, the other Sentinals will have a harder time trying to force past the regen spots for the KO assuming the MK II makes decent regen rolls.

I gotta go with the newest model, but again it all comes down to the first hit.

[robedestroyer]

Nobody is a winner in this fight. It's just three levels of losers. :(

[2Face]

That's the first I've seen the GSX dial laid out like that. You can really see where it could could naturally break down into 300/200/100 points.

As for the original question, I went with GSX. It's interesting, but despite the comments that GSX isn't as good as the old because it lacks the special rules, the dial itself is obviously a lot better than the others.

[jonidschultz]

In all fairness though I have run the original Sentinel many, many times, and not once have I ever used him on anything other than the 100pt level. So if I were doing all Sentinels, 300pts, I would probably be using three 100pt Sentinels. That said they would still lose to the new one unless Armor Wars was in play, heh.


Cheers,
Jon Schultz

[Superfly]

Can't believe any Sentinel other than the GSXM one recieved any votes. Really? No contest, here. The new one is far better, though I do wish it were not 300 points.

[Lord Logan]

Unless there is an update, the DoFP wins, simply because of capture. If it comes down to brute force, probably the new one.

You can't capture a collosal

[Marshal Law]

I think the fact that they have Multi-attack and can push indefinitely while GSX can only act 2 out of every 3 turns has something to do with those votes. Its actually pretty close between the DOFP and GSX. That fight will all depend on who gets the first hit in. If DOFP does, good luck to GSX trying to hit a 19def with 10AV or worse (remember multi-attack, RS and PB at 2dmg each attack).

Thought about that when I first looked at the dials, and the 7+ to hit the DOFP has vs the 8+ the GSX has on the initial strike. Not to mention the Psychic Blast of DOFP.

But the problem is that even though the first hit is statistically going to go to the DOFP figure, that doesn't help enough. In fact the 3 damage Psychic Blast is the classic example of exactly the wrong number - puts the GSX Sentinel on an 11 attack / 18 defense click. This leaves both figures sitting in the '8+ to hit' bucket, with an uneven match of skills to deal with it.

The DOFP figure can ill afford to push for its chances to hit 8+ without turning that into a 9+ (and the numbers generally only get worse over time, as the DOFP has an attack of 1 less and defense 2 less than the GSX over roughly 2/3 of the dial). Basically turning it's forever push ability into a liability for any player not on a hot dice streak.

While the GSX only needs to hit that 8+ once to permanently put the its hit number in a comfortable 7+ for all but one of its dial clicks (its one 8 attack number), and the odds are that bad only on one of the DOFP clicks (click 5) and conditionally on two others (9 and 10). In most cases the to hit number is even easier. With indomitable, it can afford to toss the dice down 2 out of 3 turns, while the DOFP has to keep a very lucky streak going to keep pace and make up for the push damage taken and often lower attack damage dealt.

Take an ability (or crooked dice) to roll 9+ consistently away from the table and it's a fast slide downhill for the DOFP. Even factoring in (or perhaps because of) the likelihood of the DOFP first strike.

This new Sentinel still isn't going to provide any significant challenge to a well built team (last time that ever happened was back in the 100 point IC Sentinel days with the old rules, and even that was a bit of a one trick pony). Nor frankly should it necessarily do so - even in the comics their threat was mostly due to initial surprise of whatever the new design had in its bag of tricks, or from overwhelming force of numbers that would not be an even point match-up in a HeroClix game. But this newer one is at least better, and should provide a more challenging scenario target in judge run cooperative team events.

[gawain]

Can't believe any Sentinel other than the GSXM one recieved any votes. Really? No contest, here. The new one is far better, though I do wish it were not 300 points.

They must have voted for the older ones in some nerd rage induced protest because the GSX version is not as good as they'd imagined. How could anyone sane think the original Sentinel can beat anything at 300 points, let alone the new version?

[AbeSapien]

The new version is a far superior combatant at 300 points over the older versions.

A solid hit on the DoFP Sentinel pushes him past outwit and then it's all downhill from there with average numbers at best.

[rancidtwinkie]

Here is my breakdown:

Origional vs DoFP would go to Original. The numbers are better and once the DoFP is knocked off the short run of Running Shot it is all down hill. Using Mutli-Attack to hit and run with RS, the Original will pretty much be able avoid counter fire (RS in to hit DofP, RS out of range targeting a terrain element).

The numbers on the GSX Sentinel are better, but the Invuln and Regen into Invuln will definitely flavour GSX over the other two.

[No-Name]

Really! Huh. I figured that was just a general rule with Colossals. My mistake, then.

[Kite-Man]

Since i'm planning on putting a GSX dial in my old IC Sentinel's base, i guess i have to vote for the new one..

[thjimmy]

I loved the IC Sentinel, but there is no comparison.

And, the point formula hasn't changed...

[magicmarvel]

If you could use feat cards it might change your poll.Probley the newest one

[First Lensman]

Mark II has higher attack values and better damage reducers. Plus, the Special Powers are great IMHO! Add to that Indomitable!

[sleeping_giant]

Guys we are talking about huge robots fighting it out. Sounds like mechwarrior could still have a chance if only they could cross it over. ;)

[GraveTheDarkestHero]

the two older sentinel's can gang up and kill the new one. Especialy since he has those blanck defense clix. But one on one all the to the new generation.

[lucyintheskie]

No multi-attack really hurts the GSX ones, not to mention not being able to give them an action every turn. I think a lot of 200 pt. teams could take down the GSX sentinel.

[Deadpool2449]

i really think the old sentinels special rules should be listed on the breakdown of powers, it really makes it more of a contest, i voted GSX, but after thinking about it, i might have rush to the wrong choice, breaking it down, it really would comes down to which one gets alpha stike, but even then (assuming they hit with every attack) GSX sentinel still squeeks by,tho like previously started, i like running the old sentenials on there lower settings, capture and auto break away is real run to do. splash in a little nimrod with nova blast (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281283) and have some fun!

[Puuka]

Updated with some of the relevant rules in this fight (I didn't include capture, since colossal figures can't be captured)

Speaking of capture, I feel sorry for Captain Marvel from SI. Here is what the 2010 rule book says about Capture...
Capture is an older ability appearing on a few characters. If using one of these characters, please see www.wizkidsgames.com for the full rules of Capture.