And for you DC movie Folks Batman [Archive]

Talon378

03/09/2003, 11:12

Personally, I thought Batman and Robin was one of the better movies in the series. I liked what they did characterwise. I thought they could have done a little better with the villains, but Arnold did a fantastic job with Mister Freeze, ONCE he settled into the role. There is a point about 15 or 20 minutes into the movie, where you can almost see him from one scene to the next settle into the role, and from there on out, he makes a great Freeze. He begins the movie kind of mechanical, and not really into it, but once he gets going, he is a great counter-point to Clooney's Batman. Clooney may not have been the best of Batmen, but he really wasn't that bad either. And Chris O'donnel makes a veryu good Robin. I really could have cared less about having Silverstone play Batgirl, but for her part, she did pretty well, even if they did totally rewrite her origin. Alfred's Neice indeed.

Manchine

03/09/2003, 11:19

Superman V is heading to theaters in 2004, though currently there isn't an actor assigned to the lead role, the Man of Steel. All that's official is a script by J.J. Abrams, creator of TV's Felicity and Alias, written to be the first installment of a trilogy to be directed by Brett Ratner. There aren't any details as to the plot either, only a Warner Bros. executive's description of the story as being filled with "light and hope."

03/07/03
Producer Jon Peters is getting antsy about the time it's taking to cast the Man of Steel, and he reportedly took it out on director Brett Ratner during a heated conversation on the Warner Bros. lot, according to The New York Post. A source told the paper, "It was a closed-door meeting, but you could hear them screaming at each other inside the office. At one point, Peters started belittling Ratner. He said, 'Oh, you think you're a big man now?' It got so bad that someone had to separate them."
The story also says Warner Bros. execs are bummed that Josh Harnett turned down the role, as Jude Law and Ashton Kutcher did before him. Brendan Fraser, Paul Walker, Hayden Christensen and soap opera Matthew Bomer are said to remain in the running, while sources said Justin Timberlake is being sought to play Superman sidekick Jimmy Olsen and Felicity star Keri Russell for the part of Lois Lane. (The New York Post)

03/06/03
Another week, another Superman casting rumor. This time, it's being reported that the supposed frontrunner for the role is … Kangaroo Jack star Jerry O'Connell? Wow. Another source has pegged Rob Lowe as Lex Luthor, only slightly less ludicrous. (E! News Live, The Z Review)

Starring
Anthony Hopkins,
Jerry O'Connell (rumored),
Brendan Fraser (rumored),
Rob Lowe (rumored)

Director(s) Brett Ratner

Screenwriter(s) J.J. Abrams

Studio Warner Bros.

Producer(s)
Jon Peters,
Joel Silver (rumored)

Dore

03/09/2003, 11:39

Batman and Robin was the single worst travesty to happen to comic book movies, period. Shame it had to happen to my all-time favorite character, too. What's so bad you ask, HulkIOA06? I'll tell ya...

1. Batman went from being a good representation of the Darknight Detective in the first movie to the Adam West Batman from the 60's show. He was tossing out HORRIBLE one-liners and generally just not acting like Batman should. He busts in on one of Freeze's capers, proclaming "Hi, Freeze. I'm Batman!" Huh? It was really creepy when Keaton did it in the first movie, as it was meant to instill fear in the petty little thug he was harrassing, but in this it just was stupid and pointless. And, like in Batman Forever, the Batmobile looks like a modified clown car, with glowing neon everywhere. Why? Batman would NEVER do that! And putting the Batmobile on the spinning thingie with the lights everywhere...ugh. Just ugh. Clooney did an ok job as Bruce Wayne (no where NEAR as good as Keaton, though), but his Batman was just a running joke. He should stick to doing cool movies like Ocean's Eleven and Dusk till Dawn.

2. Arnold was pathetic, plain and simple. He was Mr. One-liner in my opinion. That may be just fine in his own movies (I'm a HUGE Schwarzenegger fan, don't get me wrong at all), but here, it didn't work on any level. "Chill!" Ugh. Mr. Freeze is supposed to be mechanical in nature. He's supposed to be emotionally disconnected and deadpan. That's what makes his character so compelling. Look to the animated series if you want to see Victor Fries at his finest.

3. Robin. Too bad Joker couldn't have come back with a crowbar just for this one time....

4. Alicia Silverstone as Batgirl. I couldn't care less. She was just a minor distraction to me, nothing more.

5. Poison Ivy. I LOVE Uma Thurman. I've liked her since Pulp Fiction. If a movie can actually make me hate an actress after it's over, that was a BAD movie folks.

6. Bane. Ok. We're gonna take one of Batman's most intelligent and lethal enemies and put him in Joel Schumacher's toilet for a few weeks. After a few good early morning BM's, he's gonna be ready for our movie! This is what killed the entire thing for me. They took Bane, highly intelligent, highly motivated, highly deadly in every single sense of the word and turned him into Schumacher's toilet paper. No longer was he smart, oh no. He went around yelling single word sentences like "MOKNEY!" and "BOMB!". No longer was he a threat, he had arms that looked like they belonged on Popeye they were so fake. No longer was he motivated, he had some derivative of Ivy's chemicals they were calling Venom running through his veins, turning him into the Jolly Green Giant. His Venom control unit was on his chest, too, saying "Hit me! Hit me!". What a shame that someone who orchestrated Batman's downfall, something that every other criminal mastermind on the planet earth wishes they could have done, got the wash out in the movie. That's totally unforgivable.

7. The ONLY and I do mean only saving grace in this film was the exploration of the relationship between Bruce and Alfred. I thought they did a pretty decent job of this, showing the genuine affection and respect between the two without it being so sappy that the screen starts to seep maple syrup.

All in all, I'd rather watch hours and hours of Captain America, The Fantastic Four, and the Super Friends combined before watching the sore on the butt of comic movies that is Batman and Robin. 'Nuff said!

Talon378

03/09/2003, 12:14

I can agree with the complete mistreatment of Bane, and somewhat with Clooney as Batman. I said in my post, that while he wasn;t great as batman, he wasn;t all that bad either. I agree that he was a much better Bruce Wayne than he was Batman, but very few actors have thew talent to pull of a true dual-personality role such as Batman. In my opinion, Val Kilmer's turn as Batman was one of the better displays of the dual nature of Batman, and of course Michael Keaton set a high bar for the others to follow in the first two movies.

I somewhat disagree with you about Arnold's portrayal of Freeze. I think it was dead on accurate, once he settled into the role. Most of the one-liners you are talking about occur before the point where I mentioned him settling into the role. I am serious about that too. Watch the movie. About 20 or 30 minutes into it, there is a gap between scenes that contain Freeze in it. The difference from one scene to the next is like night and day. He goes from being uncomfortable with the role, to completely comfortable, and beginning to put his imprint on the role. It is actually pretty neat to see it happen.

I completely disagree about Chris O'donnel as Robin however. I think in the two movies he has been in, he has made a terrific Robin. Struggling with the death of his parents, and then slowly becoming the ying to Batman's Yang in the second movie. Robin's purpose in the comics all along was to be the bit of light in Batman's world that keeps him from going all the way to insanity. It was #### Grayson's lightheartedness all those years that kept Bruce Wayne from going insane and just start killing criminals instead of bringing them to justice. I remember a storyline just after Jason Todd got killed, when Tim Drake began training to be Robin. The storyline was that without Robin, Batman was becoming more and more agressive in his crimefighting. #### Grayson was training Tim Drake to be Robin, and he said something to the effect that the Batman needs a Robin, and since Tim Drake wanted the job, he would train him to do it.

I too love the Batman character. It is by far the most well developed in all of Comics. The depth of the character is impressive. The only other character in all of comics that can even come close to the character development that Batman has seen, and the depth of that development, would be Spider-man. What makes Batman a better character is that the development in Batman's character extends to his villains. No other hero can boast such a wide variety of villains, nor can they boast such well developed characters for their villains. Joker, Penguin, Freeze, Bane, Two-face, Riddler, they are all highly developed characters which are far more developed than any other heroes stable of villains. The screen Batman Movies have not done a truly great job of creating those lasting images of the villains as the books do. With the exception of the Joker in the first one, and maybe Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face, the directors have not done a very good job of developing the villains personalities. I would submit the casting of Jack Nicolson as the Joker as the very finest example of casting in the history of Hollywood. Was there ever an actor better suited to a role than Nicolson as the Joker? Maybe Christopher Reeve as Superman, but what other roles made mroe sense than Jack playing the Joker?

For all that was wrong with Batman and Robin, I would still submit that it was better than the middle two of this series. I absolutely hated what Danny Devito did to the Penguin role, and while it was entertaining, I was not all that impressed with what Jim Carrey did to the riddler. Val Kilmer made for an interesting Batman, but Nicole Kidman's character was lame in my opinion, a very shady attempt to try and be as good as Michelle Pfeiffer and Kim Basinger in the first two. I was so glad in Batman and Robin to see Elle Mcpherson not try to be some great actress, and just be the role.

Talon378

03/09/2003, 12:16

Originally posted by Dore
Batman and Robin was the single worst travesty to happen to comic book movies, period. Shame it had to happen to my all-time favorite character, too. What's so bad you ask, HulkIOA06? I'll tell ya...

I would also like to ask one more question of you Dore. If this was the worst comic book movie, what would you submit as the best one? I know what I would suggest for mine, but I am curious to see what yours is before I mention it.

Jervis_Tetch

03/09/2003, 12:37

Personally, i don't think the movie would blow at all. They can really develope the Scarecrow and make a really good movie, with the Mad Hatter being the side-villain. For these two villains though, the movie has to go back to being really dark like the original Batman, not all neon and lit up like Forever and Batman & Robin.

Also on a side note for all you ppl saying that Batman & Robin was the worst comic book movie to date.....try watching the original Fantastic Four movie :D

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 14:31

Originally posted by Talon378
What happened to the Superman movie that was in production? The one Nicholas Cage backed out of? I had heard they had recast Superman and were going on with the production of the movie, and that supposedly it was gonna be the whole Doomsday saga.
update from scifi wire, jerry o'connell the kid from sliders is up for the part.(gawd I hope not) David Boreanz read for the part but he cannot do it because it would interfer with the shooting of his show Angel Just fyi BJ

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 14:35

Originally posted by Jervis_Tetch

Also on a side note for all you ppl saying that Batman & Robin was the worst comic book movie to date.....try watching the original Fantastic Four movie :D
uh-uh gotta give props to dolph lungren and the punisher movie there. hmm then again there's that Captain America movie, gee that's a toughie for worst superhero form.
Oh I liked the batman and robin stuff, it was a fun adventure movie, maybe not for batman purerist but i liked it. Bane not withstanding.

Agent_X

03/09/2003, 14:43

To throw in my 2 Cents, Nick Fury: Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D was excellent. Starring David Hasselhoff, how could they go wrong?

JackAssterson

03/09/2003, 14:45

Hard as it may be to believe, Bane was a real man with **real** arms. They hired Jeep Swenson, just about the most pumped up guy in the world for Bane. He died of heart failure a few years back. No surprise; the guy was frikkin huge.

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 15:02

Originally posted by JackAssterson
Hard as it may be to believe, Bane was a real man with **real** arms. They hired Jeep Swenson, just about the most pumped up guy in the world for Bane. He died of heart failure a few years back. No surprise; the guy was frikkin huge.
I remember Jeep was a wrestler in texas back in the Von Erich days. Man you guys haven't heard a crowd pop, like a Von Erich pop in texas. He also showed briefly in wcw as the ultimate solution.I can't remember but wasn't he the first man to slam either Bundy or Gang when he worked in the World Class Championship Wrestling region?

Dore

03/09/2003, 18:56

I was in the crowd the first time Kerry Von Erich won the championship from Ric Flair, Billy Jack. I was just a wee little shaver, but I was there!

Talon378

03/09/2003, 19:00

gonna reply to my post Dore? I was enjoying the exchange of ideas we were having.....

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 19:03

Originally posted by Dore
I was in the crowd the first time Kerry Von Erich won the championship from Ric Flair, Billy Jack. I was just a wee little shaver, but I was there!
yeah so i was I. the parade of champions ruled. *sigh* I also miss matches at the sportitorium.

Grinner

03/09/2003, 19:14

Originally posted by Talon378
I completely disagree about Chris O'donnel as Robin however. I think in the two movies he has been in, he has made a terrific Robin. Struggling with the death of his parents, and then slowly becoming the ying to Batman's Yang in the second movie. Robin's purpose in the comics all along was to be the bit of light in Batman's world that keeps him from going all the way to insanity. It was #### Grayson's lightheartedness all those years that kept Bruce Wayne from going insane and just start killing criminals instead of bringing them to justice. I remember a storyline just after Jason Todd got killed, when Tim Drake began training to be Robin. The storyline was that without Robin, Batman was becoming more and more agressive in his crimefighting. #### Grayson was training Tim Drake to be Robin, and he said something to the effect that the Batman needs a Robin, and since Tim Drake wanted the job, he would train him to do it.

My problem isn't with Chris O'Donnell, it's with what they've done with Robin. They essentially combined parts of all the Robins, but not well in my estimation. He got Richard's name and origin, but none of his personality and dedication. He got Tim's costume, but not his brains. And finally he got Jason Todd's impetuousness, temper and bad attitude. His 'me, me, me' attitude would work better if he were younger (like Jason was), but as a 20-something hero it comes off as petulant.

Grinner

03/09/2003, 19:16

Originally posted by Billy Jack
Man you guys haven't heard a crowd pop, like a Von Erich pop in texas.

With the possible exception of Flair in Charlotte.

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 19:24

Originally posted by Grinner

My problem isn't with Chris O'Donnell, it's with what they've done with Robin. They essentially combined parts of all the Robins, but not well in my estimation. He got Richard's name and origin, but none of his personality and dedication. He got Tim's costume, but not his brains. And finally he got Jason Todd's impetuousness, temper and bad attitude. His 'me, me, me' attitude would work better if he were younger (like Jason was), but as a 20-something hero it comes off as petulant.
Just currious guys how would you feel about Chris O'donnell as the Man of Steel?
Oh griner howabout a brett hart face pop in Canada?

proditor

03/09/2003, 19:48

Chris O'Donnell as Superman....well, my thoughts would be that it is time to buy a high powered rifle and a ticket to Hollywood.

Honestly, I don't think I've liked any of the choices named so far as a possible superman replacement. I adore Josh Hartnett. And man would that have destroyed my suspension of disbelief. "Why is Superman squinting all the darn time?"

The only person I was able to think of, though he's getting long in the tooth, Tim Daly if you pack on abut 40 pounds of muscle. He did the voice for Animated Superman before JLA, and honestly, he looks more like Supes than just about anyone they've named so far IMHO.

Grinner

03/09/2003, 22:11

I've said it in another thread and still stand by it - Brendan Fraser would make a good Superman. He can do action, he can do comedy, he can do drama. He's got the square-jaw All-American look to him, and my wife will vouch for the fact that he can pull off the physique with as many times as she's watched George of the Jungle (but the kids love it, she says).

Card Dreamer

03/09/2003, 22:59

First off, this is my first post on the boards, so hi =)

Secondly, I want to say Batman and Robin sucked for so many reasons, it's hard to name them all, though Dore did a very good job of trying. I didn't like how they messed with character background and history. Batgirl was Commisioner Gordon's daughter and NOT related to Alfred. That alone REALLY urked me...

The Bane issues already stated by other posters is another. Arnold stunk as Freeze.

My other gripe is one with all the Batman movies (save Batman Forever) is that all the villains are killed off. Where's the fun in that? #! rule: If you want a continuing storyline, don't kill everyone! =P I mean, to kill the Joker ....kill Batman's #1 villian in the FIRST movie!? *shakes head in disgust*

As for Superman, I'll keep this short cause I noticed a Superman movie thread open. Bradnen Frasier I supose would be OKAY. Nicholes Cage would have been awesome. they need to get their butts up and make a decent script. And honestly, I saw nothing wrong with Dean Cain (Lois and Clark) as Superman...give him a sightly better made costume and stay away from the lovey dovey emotional scenes, and Dean did VERY well....

And as for bad comic movies...Supergirl wasn't all that great ;P

Dore

03/09/2003, 23:09

Sorry, my roommate needed the phone and a couple of games of Clix kept me away.

The greatest comic book movie of all time? The first Superman, hands down. Spider-Man comes in a close second, but the first Supes movie is what made comic book movies aspire to what they are today. If you want to see someone handle the dual-personality type role well, look no further. Christopher Reeves' transformation from Clark to Superman was AMAZING. Watch it again sometime. As Clark, he stoops, he's clumsy, mousy, and he mumbles and stutters through his sentences. His hair is usually dishevelled and mussed. He's the ultimate goober. When he turns into Superman however, he stands straight and tall, talks in clear, concise sentences, is the pinnacle of athletic perfection, and has perfect, spit-curled hair. The ultimate super-hero. Makes you believe that a hat and glasses really could be an effective disguise.

As for Mr. Freeze, I still say that Patrick Stewart would have brought much more to the table. He's got that disconnected coolness that's needed for the role and his acting credentials speak for themselves.

sluggo

03/09/2003, 23:21

Dore - I disagree. Superman is/was a very, very good superhero movie, however its not the best anymore. Claiming that it is the best just because it was the first good on is like saying no movie made since Gone With the Wind because it was the best and set a standard way back when. X-Men and Spider-Man have set the new standard for Superhero movies. The world needs to be real, the costumes believable, the conflicts out of costume just as epic as the conflicts in costume and the effects need to be state of the art.

"As for Mr. Freeze, I still say that Patrick Stewart would have brought much more to the table" - In a serious movie yes, but remember they were making Batman and Robin. The movie was based more on the 60's show and tried to highlight how obserd the world was. Arnold was the better fit for the movie they were trying to make. Stewart, a serious actor, would have looked out of place. Could you see Stewart making his "henchmen" sign along to the Mr. Winter cartoon?

As for the new Batman movie, I really hope they decided to stick with the Batman Year One script (at this point its not decided which one will be made). I think the series NEEDS to be started over, and that would be the best way to do it. If they do make the other one I think that Crispin Glover from Willard (the new movie about the guy who controls the rats) would be perfect as Scarecrow.

Billy Jack

03/09/2003, 23:53

Well as far as superman goes the great chris reeve set the bar too high for people to follow. Another poster, forgive me, I forget his name, said that we should a do a cgi superman with reeves face. Or maybe do a Battlestar Galactica and keep rehashing the same ole superman scenes with different angles? Hmm would you all agree than if Chris Reeves is god, than Dean Cain is the devil?

Agent Zer0

03/10/2003, 00:14

#1) It should have been directed by tim burton.
#2) They should have stayed with Val Kilmer as batman
#3) Batgirl should not have been in the movie at all
#4) Keep Arnie, but as Bane instead. And make bane intelligent. Completely get rid of Poison Ivy, and have Bane self-motivated.
#5) Patrick Stewart as Mr. Freeze. He's a great actor and play cold &detached characters quite well. And base it on the animated series freeze for both the costume & personality.
#6) No vehicles outside the batmobile or the jet should be used. The bat-ski-sled and the bat-ice-buggy were just retarded
#7 NO NIPPLES ON THE BAT-SUIT!!!
#8 No gigantc statues with cars driving on thier fingers. That's just dumb. The thig would have to be three times the size of the staue of liberty for that, and there were lots o them about the city.

Now let's go back to Batman forever

#1) Keep Tommy Lee Jons as Twoface, but COMPLETELY REWRITE HIS CHARACTER. In the movie he was always the psychotic freak side, and never Harvey Dent. He should have been a bit like Gollum was in Two Towers, with his two personalities in conflict. The coin gimmic was way overplayed.
#2) No neon. Why is Gotham, a city that is supposed to be dark and gloomy at night, lit up like a christmas tree with neon?
#3) The goon squads were idiotic. They explained the Joker's men and the Penguin's Red Circle Gang, but why did Two-Face have a horde of followers?

I'd also like to say, that Jim Carrey had a great character as Edward Nigma, but was a little too over-the-top as Riddler

kanine41

03/10/2003, 00:43

I think that Crispin Glover from Willard (the new movie about the guy who controls the rats) would be perfect as Scarecrow.

Sluggo, I think you completely nailed it. He always looks like he's on the edge and can completely lose it at any time. IMO the best actor mentioned for scarecrow so far!

sluggo

03/10/2003, 01:32

kanine41 - Thanks. In in Willard adds Glover just looks like he likes to scare people and could be believable as a pyscho and a loner but also as a very smart guy. He can also pull off the "I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I love it" stuff, it looks like he does it in Willard, and he did in Charlies Angles.

I still think they need to restart the Batman series, however the one thing that Batman Year One is missing that could hurt it as a movie is a "super villian", theres no big enemy out there for Batman to match wits with. I think that a hybrid of the two scripts would probably be the best movie. Show Bruce trying to learn as he goes (I would definatly keep the scene were he tries to be a hero without the suit, just a jacket, hat and a fake scare) as well as Lt. Gordon climbing the ladder of the Gotham police force and the story of Scarecrow (sorry, I don't know his real name) until it all culiminates in one "show down". I also think Scarecrow would be a good fit for an inexperienced Batman. Scarecrow needs to expose people to some kind of gas or shoot or something in order to induce his hulicinations, a Rookie Batman would believabley "jump before he looked" and expose himself to those gases. Also because Batman is just starting they could really play up his fears of failing.

And one good thing did come out of Batman & Robin. That really cool looking Robin suit. All Black with the Red Robin on the front. Come on, thats the best looking Robin suit we've ever seen - comcis, t.v show, cartoon or movie.

Dore

03/10/2003, 05:16

Well, the point I was actually trying to make by casting Partrick Stewart in the Freeze role was that if he were in the movie, he wouldn't EVER make his henchmen sing along to a cartoon. He wouldn't even have henchman, I mean, since when does Mr. Freeze go around hiring goons? Never, as far as I know. The return to the absolutely AWFUL 60's show (some may look upon it fondly as a good childhood memory, and I watched it too as a kid, but I will ALWAYS and forever hate it with all my heart) was the worst thing imaginable to do to the movie franchise. In the theater, I'd say a good 1/8th of the audience walked out halfway through. I stayed, cause I paid 7 freakin' bucks to see the thing, but wanted to walk out, that's for sure. It was one of the worst movies ever made, and certainly the worst comic movie (I'd say even worse than Captain America since it never really tried to be anything more than a bad B movie and B&R tried to be a blockbuster). As for Arnold, you HAVE to admit that he's a terrible actor! I mean, come on, you don't go to his movies for wonderful, emotion filled performances. You go to see him kick butt and take names as only Arnold can! If you go for the acting in his movies, you need to watch a movie with Anthony Hopkins in it sometime! Same with Stallone, although Copland really made me change my mind about his acting ability. He was GOOD in that one. Arnold was a name to attach to the movie, nothing more. Anyone not familiar with the characters would say "Hey, at least Arnold's in it!" and fork over the money to see it. Oh, and Freeze's little Freeze-mobile sucked, too.

Doomtoy

03/10/2003, 10:04

BEST Superhero Movie I've Ever Seen: Superman II, although Superman I was a close, close second. The superhero fight in the middle of Metropolis was just too good. I had a few quibbles with the plot (how'd Supes get his powers back?) but it was a fun, entertaining movie that very much filled the spirit of the comics. The first two Batman movies were excellent, as well.

WORST Superhero Movie I've ever seen: Superman IV, hands down. A great franchise, taken to its Low Budget Godzilla Suit phase.

Supergirl stunk, too. Captain America wasn't so much bad as BORING... I mean, aside from one brief scene in WWII, the superhero star of the movie spends most of the film in ordinary civilian clothes. What the heck?

To make a decent superhero movie... you have to do two things:

1. You have to have good solid characters that match or exceed the ones in the comic. Christopher Reeve and Margot Kidder pulled it off wonderfully. So did Michael Keaton, Jack Nicholson, and the rest. The second movie danced on the edge of character overload... but pulled it off through sheer ironclad talent. The third film, on the other hand, had too many villains and good guys and people flying around, and the fourth... well, there was just too stinkin' much going ON. Keep it sharp, and keep it simple.

2. You have to have a believable world. Superman kind of skimped on this, and it frankly fell apart in the fourth movie. Superman works just fine in a four-color Metropolis, but when you're filming Vancouver as New York as Metropolis, well, forget it. Tim Burton knew what he was doing when he built Gotham City from the ground up... Batman worked great in the dark, gothic Gotham sets, but if they'd tried filming in Vancouver, he would have looked about as silly as Adam West... you have to BUILD that world, and make the audience BELIEVE in it!

BEAR812

03/10/2003, 11:36

Someone here said that the X-men, and Spiderman movies have set the standard for what Super hero movies should be. While I agree that they are definately the standard by which others are judged today, they did not create the standard. As Doomtoy said Burton's Batman was believable and submersive because Burton built the world from the ground up and it was as much a character as the Batman: Dark and moody. Batman in my opinion is why Spiderman was so good, and why superhero properties get more attention today.

I have yet to see Daredevil, so I can't comment on that, but even after seeing X2 previews I'm reluctant to pay to see that. I didn't like X-Men. I don't know why, but it just didn't do it for me. I enjoy hero movies that stick to the material they were made from. We all know movies are never as good as the book (most of the time) and you can't relate 20+ years of comics into 2 hours of screen time.

My Top five:
5). Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (with the exception of the different colored bandanas and some hammy voice acting
that more resembled the cartoon, this was pretty true to the early issues of TMNT)

4). Batman Returns (dude, Pfeifer rocks as Catwoman. Keaton reprised the role beautifully, and I enjoyed the freak take on Penguin)

3). Superman (Reeves was, is, and always will be the Man of Steel, and a script that involved NO super powered bad guys)

2). Spider-Man (Raimi) 2002 ( A little more angst than expected, but this was the best superhero movie since Batman. Tobey McGuire was perfect)

1). Batman (Burton) 1989 (Keaton IS Batman.)

Worst Five
5). Batman Forever (Kilmer Blew, Robin was a putz)

4). Batman and Robin (Clooney tried, Batgirl looked like Robins sidekick.)

3). Superman IV (Nuff' said)

2). Captain America ( What happened? Very Dissapointing)

1). X-Men (I still can't put my finger on what bothers me about this one, but it is my least favorite hero movie)

sluggo

03/10/2003, 13:17

"While I agree that they are definately the standard by which others are judged today, they did not create the standard" - Yes they did. Superman created one standard. Then Batman broke it and set a new one, then X-Men and Spider-Man broke that one and set yes another new one. As movies (and other things) evolve they get better and new standards are always being set. I would bet that the new Batman movie (whenever it gets made) will more grounded in reality and not have the huge, dirty looking Gotham that Burton made, but a more real looking one like in Daredevil, its the new standard.

"4). Batman Returns (dude, Pfeifer rocks as Catwoman. Keaton reprised the role beautifully, and I enjoyed the freak take on Penguin" - This movie was terrible. It had eliments of the 60's show in it (the themed gangs), the Batman costume looked bad (its looked too machinical). They messed around with the Catwoman orgins way too much (what was that Bull#### about cats bringing her back to life?) The Penguin Character was completely wrong. And what was with the ending? All these Penguins carring missiles into Gotham city? A yellow Duck car? Batman killing even more then did in the first one? ANd its dialog was just as bad as the later movies - "Thanks for saving the day batman".

Talon378

03/10/2003, 18:09

For those of you listing superhero movies on lists, I would submit one that I have not seen on a list yet. My personal favorite superhero movie of all time, would be Superman 2, closely followed by the first Batman movie, with Nicholson as the Joker. The next best is a very hard toss up between Spiderman, and the one I am was mentioning as not haviong been mentioned here yet: The Shadow. The Shadow was an exceptional movie, with a very good storyline, and very good acting. Genghis Khan as the villain was nice. I would seriously have it compete with Spiderman as the third best Superhero movie of all time. Just my personal opinion.

Card Dreamer

03/10/2003, 22:10

Very interresting points have been made here. my top 5 are:

1.) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles -someone made the comment that the voices were to much like the cartoons, but I can't really argue or agree this is a bad thing because obviously the cartoon was the only other source to give them a voice to begin with....

2.) Superman 2 - The showdown in Metropolis is what makes it better than 1

3.) Superman 1

4.) Batman 1: Keaton, Nicholson, 'nuff said

5.) Spider-Man - any movie that can give the "Macho Man" Randy Savage a cameo isn't all that bad =P Oh, and the acting was great too ;P

I did like other comic movies, but those are the ones that really stand out to me. DC really needs to sit back watch watch the current Marel movies and take notes. There's areason they're making money and it's because they're being done right. WB is being very piss poor with the quality and choices they're making for the live action aspect of the franchise (can anyone say Birds of Prey?)

Although, after seeing previews for Hulk, I don't know if I like the idea that the majority of the time we see the hero, he's CGIed...I know Spidey was CGIed at points, but not through most of the movie like Hulk seems to be...but we'll see

On a side note: What are the top 5 comic characters you would all like to see get a movie (asuming it'd be a quality one ;P )

sluggo

03/10/2003, 22:27

"Although, after seeing previews for Hulk, I don't know if I like the idea that the majority of the time we see the hero, he's CGIed" - now I know you didn't say "he looks fake" but the idea is still there. I HATE when people look at Hulk (or Jar Jar or any other movie characters thats CGI) and say "oh, he looks fake, you can tell hes not real, it sucks". You already KNOW its not real so your looking for it to be fake. When people know something is fake, it will look fake to them. When people don't know its CGI (perfect examples are the CGI crowds in Forest Gump and the Clone Troopers (every single one of them) from AotC) it looks real to them. When you see the Hulk movie do yourself a favor and FORGET that Hulk is CGI, you'll enjoy the movie much better (at the very least, don't get online say "oh it looks so fake".

Kudger

03/10/2003, 22:28

Joker dying was one of the best parts of that movie. It made it more than a comic book where the villian always lives to fight another day and accomplishes nothing but forcing the villians to keep coming up with evil schemes. The first batman was better than all the other ones and even better than the comic series, if you made it and there was no batman comic line it still would've done awesome and would probably encourage them to start a batman comic series :D

PS: Arnold (although I'm a huge fan) played a terrible Freeze. Freeze is supposed to be cold and emotionless, his heart being ice and all. Arnold made him have one liners and be the kind of guy you felt pity for. A voice like Hal in 2001 would've been perfect (it's not a hard voice to imitate).

sluggo

03/10/2003, 22:33

Kudger - Batman killing Joke (and the henchman a few minutes before) were TOTALLY out of character (same with Batman Returns). It would be like Spider-Man killing someone. Big mistake on Burtons part.

Would everyone stop blaming Arnold for his onliners and all that in Batman and Robin. See when they make movie's they have things called scripts, and people called Dirctors and Producers that tell the actors what to do and how to play the part. Arnold didn't make all those up on his own, he didn't write the script - they were in the script and he was told the play the character that way. It wasn't his fault.

CyberVenom

03/10/2003, 22:37

Here's my top 5 (and bottom 5) comic book movies:

Top 5:
1. The Crow. Plain and simple. It doesn't get better than that.
2. X-Men. I don't think it could have been done better.
3. Superman. Very awesome! Chris Reeves is the most unexpected and excellent Clark Kent.
4. Batman Returns. Well, Batman focused too much on the villain, Batman Forever was just a little too hokey, and Batman and Robin is just right out.
5. The Mask. If you've read the comic, you know what I'm talkin' about.

Bottom 5:
1. Steel. Shaq further proved that he's not actually a Superman fan, just a Superman S-Shield fan.
2. Batman and Robin. Okay, if we reverse the film, it'll look like Robin is being pulled back INTO the water! Oh yeah, Alfred's dying, Batgirl's his niece, and Bane is a vegtable.
3. Captain America. Awesome! Cap's on a motorcycle! And he's got wings on his helmet!
4. Fantastic Four. One of the worst loads I've ever taken. Doom's reverberating voice and the rubber hand on a stick ending did it for me. But the TMNT movie looking Thing was a plus. (Note the sarcasm.)
5. TMNT 3. Just watch it.

Here's some honerable Mentions!
Good: Nick Fury; TMNT; TMNT 2: The Secret of the Ooze (featuring Kevin Nash!); Men In Black; Mystery Men; Road to Perdition; The Crow: Salvation; The Shadow

Bad: Generation X; Spawn; Men In Black II; The Crow: City of Angels; Tank Girl; Superman IV;

The Ugly: Spider-Man; The Punisher

Card Dreamer

03/10/2003, 22:45

Okay, first off, I know the Hulk is fake, as well as many other characters in movies I enjoy. That isn'tmy gripe. My gripe is the quailty of the CGI...I don't know...Jar Jar, even the trooper sin AotC (which I knew were fake from the start) looked real. They did a good job blending fake and real. I'm just saying it doesn't even look like they TRIED to hide that hulk was CGIed...he looks almost cartoonish...Again, this is only based on small previews and things could easily be touched up or changed before it's final release, so I can't say that's HOW it will be...

LivingTribunal

03/10/2003, 22:47

I am sorry Talon378 but I disagree with the Batman and Robin movie the word good in it. When he pulled out the Bat credit card I turned off that piece of dog dung movie. That was nothing but TERRIBLE! I am sorry but that is my opinion, as well as 7 of my othere friends whom wasted money in the theater watching it. I was unlucky enough to watch it on the VCR.

CyberVenom

03/10/2003, 22:49

Originally posted by Card Dreamer
Okay, first off, I know the Hulk is fake, as well as many other characters in movies I enjoy. That isn'tmy gripe. My gripe is the quailty of the CGI...I don't know...Jar Jar, even the trooper sin AotC (which I knew were fake from the start) looked real. They did a good job blending fake and real. I'm just saying it doesn't even look like they TRIED to hide that hulk was CGIed...he looks almost cartoonish...Again, this is only based on small previews and things could easily be touched up or changed before it's final release, so I can't say that's HOW it will be...

I have a question for you. And trust me, after I make my point, it in on means in meant to be a personal attack, but a general statement.

Did you like the way the Scorpion King looked at the end of Mummy Returns?

Card Dreamer

03/10/2003, 22:52

CyberVenom, you have some ...interresting choices in all those lists.

1.) Why do you consider Spider-Man to be a bad movie?

2.) Since when was their an Men In Black comic (before the movie came out)?

3.) Yeah, I forgot all about how bad TMNT 3 was...

CyberVenom

03/10/2003, 22:56

1) I did'nt say Spider-Man was a bad movie. It's in my Ugly list. It had moments, but in my opinion, didn't stay true enough to the comics themselves. It was more Ultimate Spider-Man than Spider-Man.

2) Men In Black was a comic waaaaaay before it was a movie. If I'm not mistaken, it was under a very very small company, and both J and K were white! Bum-Bum-bum!!!!!!

3) Shudder....

Card Dreamer

03/10/2003, 23:00

CyberVenom, I know right away what point you're gonna make using the Scorpian King, and there are differences between his 5 minute appearence and a 2 hour movie with Hulk. First, the Scorp King looked Nasty in Mummy 2. However, you're right, it's a good movie and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I didn't say I wouldn't enjoy the Hulk movie. I just wasn't thrilled with Hulk's quality, that's all. Plain and simple... And I know it wasn't a personal attack...at least, I think that's what you were tyring to say, that sentence had mistakes :D

Card Dreamer

03/10/2003, 23:06

1.) I'll have to take your word about Spider-Man, I was never a huge Marvel fan, so I haven't read too many of their comics, I just know enough to get by =P

2.) I never knew that about Men In Black. That's pretty cool. It's not the first time Will Smith played a white character though (Wild Wild West). Kinda reminds me what they did with Harvey in Batman 1 and 3. Billy Dee Williams (Lando for those who don't know who he is) and Tommy Lee jones in 3...he pulled a Michael Jackson! =P

3.) *shuddering right along with you*

4.) You know, I never saw the Steel movie with Shaq...how did he become Steel or wear the s-shield (if he did at all)? I know Superman saved his life in the ocmics and he took up the mantel of the S when Supes died, but ...

sluggo

03/10/2003, 23:41

"1) I did'nt say Spider-Man was a bad movie. It's in my Ugly list. It had moments, but in my opinion, didn't stay true enough to the comics themselves. It was more Ultimate Spider-Man than Spider-Man" - Spider-man was one of the best comic book movies when it comes to sticking to the comic material. Much closer then X-Men and Batman Returns to the comcis. If thats the only reason you didn't like it then you should like X-Men and Batman Returns less.

uroboros

04/05/2003, 15:12

Does Batman have to wear a rubber suit and fight like a 5 year old in his first day of Tae Kwon Do!?
Does he have to be an idiot?!
Does a shiny Bat-mobile make any sense at all?
Does the Joker, one of the most long lived and interesting comic villains, have to die?
Do the people who direct these films read comics?

Why is it that the two best Batman movies are both animated...?
(and I really do love them both)

Please can the next film be written and directed by people who actually care to maintain the integrity of characters who have been around longer than I can reasonably expect to live?

Please :cry:

GroovyBoy

04/06/2003, 03:20

Originally posted by sluggo
Kudger - Batman killing Joke (and the henchman a few minutes before) were TOTALLY out of character (same with Batman Returns). It would be like Spider-Man killing someone. Big mistake on Burtons part.

Would everyone stop blaming Arnold for his onliners and all that in Batman and Robin. See when they make movie's they have things called scripts, and people called Dirctors and Producers that tell the actors what to do and how to play the part. Arnold didn't make all those up on his own, he didn't write the script - they were in the script and he was told the play the character that way. It wasn't his fault.

Yeah, big name stars have no rewrite priviledges. Come on, man, look at Harrison Ford and 1)why he wasn't in the last Clancy movie, and 2) what happens to scripts once he IS part of a project. That's just one example. You gonna tell me Arnie hasn't reached that level of stardom?