View Full Version : Batman=dumb
metzgarob
03/09/2003, 13:49
just so yall know i think batman is just a lame charachter i hate him i dont mind the clix just think that the concept of batman needs to be redone... like if dc had ultimate books (like marvel) then i think that bats should be the first one to be ultimized
anyone with me on this
(just cuz i was in the mood to post something new)
JackAssterson
03/09/2003, 14:07
Why do you think Batman is a lame character?
Jervis_Tetch
03/10/2003, 03:59
Personally, i think Batman is one of the greatest comic book characters. The characters that surround him, and he himself, aren't excessively outlandish like having extreme super powers or anything, and that's why I think he's cool. He doesn't need super powers to win, he's a brilliant detective, and he's got a cool car :D Wish i could say the same for Robin though.....poor, poor Robin...
PantherPriest
03/10/2003, 04:17
Well you succeded in making a unique post, I believe you are the first person I've ever heard who doesn't like batman. I like batman because he would be a fun character to write comic books for. I'll wait to hear your reasoning before i say anything, because you no doubt expected to have tons of opposition on this.
Now if you're saying that Batman seems to have a problem to every solution, I'll agree with you, he does seem to be too good at points.
texaswashingto
03/10/2003, 04:32
I too want to hear why Batman sucks... maybe he meant Batman MOVIES which in that case, I agree (except for the first 2, those were great! Gotta love DeVito as the Penguin!)
Jervis_Tetch
03/10/2003, 04:46
And Pfeiffer as Catwoman, I normally don't like cats, but that's one ##### i wouldn't mind having around the house :D
Yeah, a bad pun, i know.....
Jervis_Tetch
03/10/2003, 04:47
Hey, what's wrong with #####, it's in the dictionary :mad:
PantherPriest
03/10/2003, 04:50
##### is in the dictionary, but so is ### and ##### and #### and #### and ########## and ####### and ############################ and ####################### and #########$$$$$$$^#^&&&(%&*$&(&^*&&(*%%#^*&%(*^(&$^R&%^*)&^)(&)*&*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They even censor ####
Mp, was a good catwoman. But I thought catwoman was puerto rican? But like they ever care.
metzgarob
03/10/2003, 22:18
1) panther priest, its not that i dont like batman . . . i nearly HATE batman i think that him at his core is a good idea but i dont think he is THAT anymore and the following is what i hate about him "currently"
2) first, i understand that bats is this "great" martial artist. my problem is that that is pretty much all he is now he is barely a "detective" anymore he's all about the kickin' butt and taking names and not about solving crimes
3) when he does use his brain it is rediculously overdone, again granted that he is a smart man and granted he is one of the smartest in DC. all im saying is that he is treated as though he has 100 times the intellect of anyone elsein DC. wich is totally false. there are others out there who are AT LEAST on par with bats if not surpass him (ie ted kord, lex luthor, ray palmer, etc.)
4) i understand about bats purpose, to keep "his city" crime free, clean. If this were true then he wouldnt even consider joining the justice league he would see that as someone elses problem while he needs to focus on his city, i.e. not involving himself in some intergalactic civil war at the other side of the universe. (another aspect of this is why would the league use him over anyone else, what can he do that noone else can, and if he were SO smart he would know this and recomend someone else to fit the leagues needs)
5) bats is supposed to be an urban myth. if this were true why does he go to JLA press meetings EVERYONE knows what bats looks like so why are criminals so scared. ive read issues where criminals disguised as the league one of wich being bats rob a bank or something. the point being that the bats look-a-like looked identical to the original. on top of that noone is scared of him any more wich i was always lead to believe that his suit was meant to "scare" or give psychological advantage over the criminal element wich it does nothing of the sort (at least anymore) i mean come on
6) im not goin to get into this too much but, here goes. i understand that bats (for lack of a better terminology) is like peak human. ive discussed in length how bats versus anyone and they think bats would win (almost every time) and without posting who would win arguments, i can type on this for hours but ill need to leave the house eventually. all i can say is i disagree
7) bats is. . . ok at protecting his city and beating up thugs/psycho's but thats about it and to me that is a dumb and boring charachter
again i think that his core idea is good but needs refining or "ulyimizing"
i think thats it theres probably more im forgetting but theres time for that latrer, enjoy
PantherPriest
03/11/2003, 00:04
2) I can understand this, he is equally a dective and a fighter, and pop culture tends to make him more of a fighter, however in detective comics he is currently doing a fair bit of detective work, trying to uncover the man who is murdering all of gothams villains. Did you do anything with the murder/fugitive saga? Towards the end he did a lot of detective work, and provided quite entertaining. But yes we have definitely lost some of the master detective we had in the Ra's Al Ghoul days.
3) When he uses his brain in his comics, it's quite rational and ingenious. Mind you I said HIS comics, in JLA he is treated as this Batgenius god sometimes, but I don't like the JLA so I tend to ignore everything they do, including batman. I'd prefer that he just be smart and no one say anything about it, I'd rather come to the conclusion that bats is really smart myself rather than having it shoved in my face.
4) What he can do is be smarter than the rest of them; in the end he was added because he's one of dc's big heroes, plain and simple. Like I said, I more or less hate the JLA, hate may be a strong word, but I don't like them. Batman shouldn't be in JLA I'll give you that, he looks out of place fighting intergalactic beings and what not, I'd prefer he stay in gotham and have an international adventure every no and again, but I ignore the JLA completely.
5) See #4, JLA sucks. And writers don't emphasize the fear factor enough. Devin Grayson when she was doing Gotham Knights did the fear factor absolutely beautifully, and everything else for that matter. I was sorry to see her go.
6) People say that not based on batmans strength, but his mind. He always finds a way to outwit his opponent, even if it does take him a second try. (Bane.) Because of this Batman tends not to loose very often, he seems to be unbeatable at times. And this is how fans like it, they like to see their hero unstoppable. Me I try to stay away from the whoever vs. nobody battles because they have nothing to do with the comics.
7) Pick up a few of the new issues of Detective Comics, the covers alone are worth the 2.50, or the murder saga graphic novles, you'll see that Batman's character is very well developed, and there are many aspects of him.
I don't read much dc at all outside of batman, you seem to so who is your favorite dc character.
Ok...how does Batman know when and where thugs are going to strike? I mean...he ALWAYS stops, like, every stinkin' crime in Gotham, but how does he know where they all are?
Marvel at least gives explanations for their characters (telepathy, sixth sense, super hearing/sight/speed, etc).
But there's really no way for Batman to know.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 00:17
ok :D
1) i did like the batman murderer/fugitive story and i also do like the current detective story i think ed brubaker has a good handle on the charachter wich is basically my point, when written correctly (wich isnt often ) i do (sorta) like his books
2) ok this comes off as strange but my favorite DC charachter is Nightwing aka #### grayson now the argument can be made that how can my favorite char. come from something i hate but again i reittirate i like the concept just not the way its treated
3) this will come off as a little sick but although #### is my favorite dc charachter i IDOLIZE superman (i see supes at a greater level than that) i know crazy
4) i really dont like devon grayson i think she is one of the reasons batman is not good today
5) ya thats it (for now :) )
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 00:19
Originally posted by LuckyJ
Ok...how does Batman know when and where thugs are going to strike? I mean...he ALWAYS stops, like, every stinkin' crime in Gotham, but how does he know where they all are?
Marvel at least gives explanations for their characters (telepathy, sixth sense, super hearing/sight/speed, etc).
But there's really no way for Batman to know.
again i hate bats but this is explainable...
who said he does stop all crimes?? :) thats why his city needs such work
Originally posted by metzgarob
1) panther priest, its not that i dont like batman . . . i nearly HATE batman i think that him at his core is a good idea but i dont think he is THAT anymore and the following is what i hate about him "currently"
2) first, i understand that bats is this "great" martial artist. my problem is that that is pretty much all he is now he is barely a "detective" anymore he's all about the kickin' butt and taking names and not about solving crimes
3) when he does use his brain it is rediculously overdone, again granted that he is a smart man and granted he is one of the smartest in DC. all im saying is that he is treated as though he has 100 times the intellect of anyone elsein DC. wich is totally false. there are others out there who are AT LEAST on par with bats if not surpass him (ie ted kord, lex luthor, ray palmer, etc.)
4) i understand about bats purpose, to keep "his city" crime free, clean. If this were true then he wouldnt even consider joining the justice league he would see that as someone elses problem while he needs to focus on his city, i.e. not involving himself in some intergalactic civil war at the other side of the universe. (another aspect of this is why would the league use him over anyone else, what can he do that noone else can, and if he were SO smart he would know this and recomend someone else to fit the leagues needs)
5) bats is supposed to be an urban myth. if this were true why does he go to JLA press meetings EVERYONE knows what bats looks like so why are criminals so scared. ive read issues where criminals disguised as the league one of wich being bats rob a bank or something. the point being that the bats look-a-like looked identical to the original. on top of that noone is scared of him any more wich i was always lead to believe that his suit was meant to "scare" or give psychological advantage over the criminal element wich it does nothing of the sort (at least anymore) i mean come on
6) im not goin to get into this too much but, here goes. i understand that bats (for lack of a better terminology) is like peak human. ive discussed in length how bats versus anyone and they think bats would win (almost every time) and without posting who would win arguments, i can type on this for hours but ill need to leave the house eventually. all i can say is i disagree
7) bats is. . . ok at protecting his city and beating up thugs/psycho's but thats about it and to me that is a dumb and boring charachter
again i think that his core idea is good but needs refining or "ulyimizing"
i think thats it theres probably more im forgetting but theres time for that latrer, enjoy
Think about all the image characters and other characters that no one will remember in a few years. I've gotta think that Batman is one of the most recognizable characters .... rivalled only by Superman and Spiderman.
Every character has a persiod of lame writing ..perhaps his detective skills haven't been used recently but that by no means makes the entire character lame.
Pray tell ... what characters that you don't think are dumb.
PantherPriest
03/11/2003, 00:37
Did you read gotham knights? I absolutely loved grayson on gotham knights, I can't say the same about what she does with nightwing, but why didn't you like GN? I'm assuming you like superman just because he's superman, there's no reason else to like him, talk about a character with bad writing. :)
Who else treats batman poorly? I've seen good things from brubaker and rucka, but I don't like the normal art in Batman or the writing. And I don't give a flying foot about Jim Lee, so I can understand complaints from that side
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 00:37
Originally posted by bizzaro
Think about all the image characters and other characters that no one will remember in a few years. I've gotta think that Batman is one of the most recognizable characters .... rivalled only by Superman and Spiderman.
i dont deny that at all, he is recognizable, that doesnt make him any less lame though
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 00:46
Originally posted by PantherPriest
Did you read gotham knights? I absolutely loved grayson on gotham knights, I can't say the same about what she does with nightwing, but why didn't you like GN? I'm assuming you like superman just because he's superman, there's no reason else to like him, talk about a character with bad writing. :)
Who else treats batman poorly? I've seen good things from brubaker and rucka, but I don't like the normal art in Batman or the writing. And I don't give a flying foot about Jim Lee, so I can understand complaints from that side
1) yes i basically like supes because he IS supes but if you want a good supes story look at action comics #775 (good stuff)
2) batman has had ok/decent stories but if i had to list great stories of batman only a handful come to mind: long halloween, that new detective story (and spore), killing joke, mad love, a story about 3 years ago with the emergence of the REAL matches malone and thats about it other than that they are all mediocre
3) favorite bats movie-mask of the phantasm
What I meant is that he recognizable and has lasted for a reason ... he is an original concept of a character that has a really interesting background. Hm ... here are some Batman stories that might change your mind:
The Killing Joke (by Alan Moore?)
Arkham Asylum (by Grant Morrison)
Dark Knight Returns (by Frank Miller)
Batman Year One (by Frank Miller)
If you read these and still think he's alame character ... well ... then nothing's going to change your mind.
Yup .. Long Halloween and Dark Victory are good stuff too.
I like Superman but I'd be interested in what you thought were his best stories .... nothing comes to mind for me.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 00:54
Originally posted by bizzaro
What I meant is that he recognizable and has lasted for a reason ... he is an original concept of a character that has a really interesting background. Hm ... here are some Batman stories that might change your mind:
The Killing Joke (by Alan Moore?)
Arkham Asylum (by Grant Morrison)
Dark Knight Returns (by Frank Miller)
Batman Year One (by Frank Miller)
If you read these and still think he's alame character ... well ... then nothing's going to change your mind.
again i agree he is an original concept and its THAT original concept that that is missing in todays books for the reasons that i had posted earlier
i have read all those yes and i had forgotten to list year one in the good stories, that was good
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 01:00
Originally posted by bizzaro
Yup .. Long Halloween and Dark Victory are good stuff too.
I like Superman but I'd be interested in what you thought were his best stories .... nothing comes to mind for me.
good supes stories
action 775
superman for all seasons
the whole superman arkham thing
kingdom come
death of superman
action 800 had excellent interludes but the story was soso (read and you'll see what i mean)
theres a supes annual with mongul that was excellent but i dont remember the #
thats all that springs to mind
PantherPriest
03/11/2003, 01:07
you appreciate mask of the phantasm, good, this means you do like batman. I enjoyed Sub Zero as well, just not as good as mask. What about no mans land? I loved no mans land
Billy Jack
03/11/2003, 01:09
Originally posted by bizzaro
Yup .. Long Halloween and Dark Victory are good stuff too.
I like Superman but I'd be interested in what you thought were his best stories .... nothing comes to mind for me.
Well for sheer story I'd recommend Superman for all seasons. The story was beautiful, read it four times. However the art leaves alot to be desired. Till death do are us part, and critical condition are kewl also.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 01:10
no mans land was again just ok to me
also i remembered something else i hate about bats
the way i see it bruce wayne is bats
not vice versa
btw this is all IMHO
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 01:12
Originally posted by Billy Jack
Till death do are us part, and critical condition are kewl also.
wow
critical condition!?
dont get me wrong i like this story also just didnt think many others did
Billy Jack
03/11/2003, 01:50
Originally posted by metzgarob
wow
critical condition!?
dont get me wrong i like this story also just didnt think many others did
actually the only story I haven't liked is the exile superman tpb. *spoiler* Superman doesn't need equipment to survive in space.
I actually liked the stories in superman 800 especially the one with the cop. And last years "return to krypton arc" rocked. I didn't like last years whole guy garden story line, it gave me the willies . Yeah I like superman, the first superhero is still the best :D
Oh btw has anyone picked up the kents yet? It's one of the few books i need for my collection of superman tpb, just wondering how it is.
basil karlo
03/11/2003, 01:57
How dose Bat Man know where crimes are he's got oricale to tell him and before he listened to the police radio.
Originally posted by metzgarob
1) panther priest, its not that i dont like batman . . . i nearly HATE batman i think that him at his core is a good idea but i dont think he is THAT anymore and the following is what i hate about him "currently"
Actually, a good portion of this is no longer true.
2) first, i understand that bats is this "great" martial artist. my problem is that that is pretty much all he is now he is barely a "detective" anymore he's all about the kickin' butt and taking names and not about solving crimes
The current "Hush" storyline emphasizes the detective work more than recent memory.
3) when he does use his brain it is rediculously overdone, again granted that he is a smart man and granted he is one of the smartest in DC. all im saying is that he is treated as though he has 100 times the intellect of anyone elsein DC. wich is totally false. there are others out there who are AT LEAST on par with bats if not surpass him (ie ted kord, lex luthor, ray palmer, etc.)
This has been corrected (at least in the JLA issues after Grant Morrisson, who went WAY over the top with Bats). Early in Mark Waid's run of JLA, Ra's al Ghul rather spectacularly outsmarted Batman, and the Atom wins a bet with Bats over Waynetech gadgetry in the most recent JLA issue. I do agree, though, that Lex should be at least Bats' equal.
4) i understand about bats purpose, to keep "his city" crime free, clean. If this were true then he wouldnt even consider joining the justice league he would see that as someone elses problem while he needs to focus on his city, i.e. not involving himself in some intergalactic civil war at the other side of the universe. (another aspect of this is why would the league use him over anyone else, what can he do that noone else can, and if he were SO smart he would know this and recomend someone else to fit the leagues needs)
Bats' membership on the JLA is partially because he doesn't entirely trust the rest of the team, again something hinted at in Mark Waid's run.
5) bats is supposed to be an urban myth. if this were true why does he go to JLA press meetings EVERYONE knows what bats looks like so why are criminals so scared. ive read issues where criminals disguised as the league one of wich being bats rob a bank or something. the point being that the bats look-a-like looked identical to the original. on top of that noone is scared of him any more wich i was always lead to believe that his suit was meant to "scare" or give psychological advantage over the criminal element wich it does nothing of the sort (at least anymore) i mean come on
The Batman books have dropped the "urban myth" angle since early No Man's Land. Even before that, however, it was a difficult sell - Batman was a reserve member of the Justice League and led the early JLI (in front of cameras), was present at a terrorist attack against the UN (A Death in the Family; again, with cameras present), suffered a horrible beating at the hands of Bane (the culmination of which ended in front of many, many witnesses), and had his sidekick lead a VERY public superhero team for about ten years. The idea fit the character, but the implementation was haphazard.
6) im not goin to get into this too much but, here goes. i understand that bats (for lack of a better terminology) is like peak human. ive discussed in length how bats versus anyone and they think bats would win (almost every time) and without posting who would win arguments, i can type on this for hours but ill need to leave the house eventually. all i can say is i disagree
I believe the gist of most of these arguments are referring to Bats' ability to outwit his opponents, rather than to simply beat them up.
7) bats is. . . ok at protecting his city and beating up thugs/psycho's but thats about it and to me that is a dumb and boring charachter
There goes a good chunk of ALL comic heroes.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 15:56
Originally posted by Grendel
The current "Hush" storyline emphasizes the detective work more than recent memory.
exactly... the key words being in recent memory my point was that he doesnt use his detectiveness as often as he should
This has been corrected (at least in the JLA issues after Grant Morrisson, who went WAY over the top with Bats). Early in Mark Waid's run of JLA, Ra's al Ghul rather spectacularly outsmarted Batman, and the Atom wins a bet with Bats over Waynetech gadgetry in the most recent JLA issue. I do agree, though, that Lex should be at least Bats' equal
again my point speeks for itself, batman got outsmarted by the one char. (bats AE) that is supposedly his intellectual equal WHOA WILL WONDERS NEVER CEASE he outsmarted ONCE... please :)
although i enjoy that atom thing i will re-read that issue since i had apparently missed that (but thats AWESOME... REALLY)
Bats' membership on the JLA is partially because he doesn't entirely trust the rest of the team, again something hinted at in Mark Waid's run
first it wasnt hinted at it was point blank told. secondly he shouldnt care, how often do these people even come to gotham let alone show signs of weakness (not very). thirdly, is he THAT bored all the time, wich leads into one of my other problems, that if he was the way he is supposed to be then he wouldnt ever worry himself with anything outside of his city unless it were unavoidable or if his job were done
The Batman books have dropped the "urban myth" angle since early No Man's Land. Even before that, however, it was a difficult sell - Batman was a reserve member of the Justice League and led the early JLI (in front of cameras), was present at a terrorist attack against the UN (A Death in the Family; again, with cameras present), suffered a horrible beating at the hands of Bane (the culmination of which ended in front of many, many witnesses), and had his sidekick lead a VERY public superhero team for about ten years. The idea fit the character, but the implementation was haphazard
as far as im aware they havent dropped it at all they just ignore it
and if they HAVE dropped it then whats the point of him wearing a bat suit... there is no point to it and its lame
I believe the gist of most of these arguments are referring to Bats' ability to outwit his opponents, rather than to simply beat them up
this comes back to one of my bigger points...
1) batman is smart, one of the smartest... that doesnt mean that everyone else is a moron. it seems to me that everyone thinks he can "outwit" anyone anywhere anytime. this is absolutely not true and leads into my second point
2) i really HATE when people think that he can defeat anyone this is untrue although the way bats is treated in all this bad writing its hard to believe that he couldnt beat anyone (GOD included)
There goes a good chunk of ALL comic heroes
yes exactly again all charachters ARE good at what they do. and batman should stay IN gotham beating up thugs and one day die a very happy man (i phrased this wrong originally) when/if they fix/ultimize him he will be a good charachter again they just need to take him back to his roots
The day they try to do an "ultimate" version of Batman, is the day they will ruin the character.
I've given up on following most characters main titles and prefer the one shot stories that come out. Batman has so many facets to his character that it's great to see how other writers interperet him, and really does well in one-off stories.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 16:24
Originally posted by TheLion
Batman has so many facets to his character that it's great to see how other writers interperet him, and really does well in one-off stories.
i agree that for the most part bats mini-series and one shots are the better another book of his i liked alot was Batman: Ego
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 16:26
Originally posted by TheLion
Batman has so many facets to his character...
ok... enlighten me
what are these fascinating facets?:D
Do a little research for yourself.
Dig up a Batman Annual (or a special but I think it was an annual) from the 80's dealing with 5 different ways of looking at the character. I think it was told from five diiferent points of view.
Don't judge a character but the current version (though the Loeb/Lee verison is good) and go back and read some of the old stuff. O'Neal/Addams, Englehart/Rogers, and some of the great stuff from the 70's. It's not hard to see why the character has endured.
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 16:52
Originally posted by TheLion
Do a little research for yourself
LOL, i work at a comic shop all i do all day is read books new/old/medium/all of the above. wich in turn led to me noticeing all these flaws in bats history/charachter
Dig up a Batman Annual (or a special but I think it was an annual) from the 80's dealing with 5 different ways of looking at the character. I think it was told from five diiferent points of view
if i havent read this one issue u speak of (wich im pretty sure i have) i have at least read one of the many times that they've done these stories. wich is one of my problems there shouldnt be 5 different points of view HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE AN URBAN MYTH
Don't judge a character but the current version (though the Loeb/Lee verison is good) and go back and read some of the old stuff. O'Neal/Addams, Englehart/Rogers, and some of the great stuff from the 70's. It's not hard to see why the character has endured.
i dont really care for the loeb lee current version (but i do like loebs long halloween) denny oneal is the dc equivalent of marvel's chris claremont to me they are both "the difinative writers of their..." and i think that they both are NOT good writers ill give you neal adams is a good artist but the art doesnt always make the book
as to why the charachter has endured, i have theories
fanboys (of wich i am proudly a member) are dumb and when they like a charachter for whatever reason they wont back down when it comes to defending them and they will get a book of theirs (good/bad) just because of the charachter
also the charachter has probably endured because of his original concept and i think that they have strayed to far away from that
also i forgot the point i was trying to make so im going to stop now :D
On the Ray Palmer winning a bet with Batman - it wasn't so much a bet as it was the Atom giving Batman the business. The WayneTech equipment that they've attached to Flash and Firestorm isn't working ideally, and Atom says "I thought this was supposed to be good in extreme conditions." Batman replies, "It is." The condition that the equipment is currently in? Flash has vibrated himself and Firestorm partially out of phase with this dimension. So Atom is essentially saying, "Your equipment can't handle being in another reality? Your stuff sucks." And you can bet that if he was online, there would be a :p stuck at the end of that statement.
Good Superman story - Ending Battle. Get through the first 7 issues as quick as you can, and then bask in the awesomeness of issue 8.
Oh, and metzgarob - people know about urban myths. People may not have believed Batman actually existed prior to No Man's Land, but you can bet they'd heard of him, and each one probably heard something a little different. Urban myths are not completely unknown - they're things like alligators in the New York City sewers. "Some can be up to 10 feet long." "Really? I'd heard 20." "They say that the sanitation workers feed them." "I hadn't heard that!" -OR- "They say the Batman can blow a wall to pieces with his mind." "No way!" "Yeah, and he's like 10 feet tall, invulnerable, and capable of flight!" "I'd heard that he can read thoughts." "Horse hockey!" "No, how else would he know about every single crime in Gotham and be there to stop it?" You seem to think "urban legend" equates to "no one's heard of him".
Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 21:09
Originally posted by Clix776
Oh, and metzgarob - people know about urban myths. People may not have believed Batman actually existed prior to No Man's Land, but you can bet they'd heard of him, and each one probably heard something a little different. Urban myths are not completely unknown - they're things like alligators in the New York City sewers. "Some can be up to 10 feet long." "Really? I'd heard 20." "They say that the sanitation workers feed them." "I hadn't heard that!" -OR- "They say the Batman can blow a wall to pieces with his mind." "No way!" "Yeah, and he's like 10 feet tall, invulnerable, and capable of flight!" "I'd heard that he can read thoughts." "Horse hockey!" "No, how else would he know about every single crime in Gotham and be there to stop it?" You seem to think "urban legend" equates to "no one's heard of him"
thats not what i was saying, i was saying...
that yes people should see bats as like man-bat a big creature or like a great superhero (superman) what ever they have heard through the grape vine they shouldnt sell batman costumes at stores that look identical to batman. also i believe that thelion's point was to recomend a story that shows the different aspects of batman to wich my argument was that he should be an urban myth to wich noone knows what he is really like, but in said story it shows 5 different versions of the real batman wich should be Urban myth told by 5 different people i think that that is stupid.
also ending battle is good and even better after reading action #775 (the best comic ever)
metzgarob
03/11/2003, 22:14
another reason that i not only hate batman but i hate his universe
the joker
everyone (usually) sees the joker as bats ultimate bad guy, his arch enemy so to speak.
i think this is absolutley wrong, he is one of batmans more popular bad guys but come on. its easy to see that bats AE is ra's ah ghul (pronounced rahz not ray-sh)
joker is comissioner gordons AE, joker paralyzed his daughter, joker killed his second wife
it could be argued that joker killed JT but my counter arguement for this is he didnt really do it to get at bats but to get at JT and his mom (if memory serves)
anyway thats just another thing (IMHO)
Originally posted by metzgarob
i dont really care for the loeb lee current version (but i do like loebs long halloween) denny oneal is the dc equivalent of marvel's chris claremont to me they are both "the difinative writers of their..." and i think that they both are NOT good writers ill give you neal adams is a good artist but the art doesnt always make the book
Well, if you learn how to spell and punctuate, and cut off the run-on sentences you may actually make a small point.
Until then your argument is nothing more than an unreadable bunch of Blah, blah, blah. :rolleyes:
k0rnkid15
03/13/2003, 21:16
dude batman IS one of the greatest comic heros of all time. see im more of a marvel guy and barely like DC, but Batman is like the greatest comic book solo hero in opinion, or spider-man. if DC did 'ultimates' i think it might be ok, but it would be posing marvel thus making them look bad, and 2 y? its batman, he doesnt need a make over!
metzgarob
03/14/2003, 00:54
Originally posted by TheLion
Well, if you learn how to spell and punctuate, and cut off the run-on sentences you may actually make a small point.
Until then your argument is nothing more than an unreadable bunch of Blah, blah, blah. :rolleyes:
WOW
me am shure me momma be fat and smells funy two :D
NorrinRadd
03/14/2003, 01:23
Dude, saying you don't like Batman is like saying you don't like The Beatles. You do it for two possible reasons; 1.) You're ignorant. You either haven't been exposed to it enough or you don't yet have the capacity to appreciate it. Or, 2.) You're trying to shock people with your amazingly original perspective and insight. You feel that it makes you cooler to make bold statements that make people react in a certain way.
Anybody who is seriously into comics, at the very least, RESPECTS Batman. The character not only makes for an interesting read, it has become an icon that has been constantly evolving along with the generations since its creation. Think about it. We've come from the old Detective Comics all the way through the 70s Bats, to the Frank Miller Bats, to the Batman: TAS Bats, to the Loeb/Lee Bats, to Batman: Beyond. Batman is here to stay, deal with it.
The one point that I think Metzgarob made that I STRONGLY agree with is that Ed Brubaker is a great Batman writer. If you're at all interested in his stuff, I would advise you to pick up SCENE OF THE CRIME and GOTHAM CENTRAL. Both are drawn by Michael Lark and are really good detective stories.
NorrinRadd
metzgarob
03/14/2003, 01:36
Originally posted by NorrinRadd
Dude, saying you don't like Batman is like saying you don't like The Beatles. You do it for two possible reasons; 1.) You're ignorant. You either haven't been exposed to it enough or you don't yet have the capacity to appreciate it. Or, 2.) You're trying to shock people with your amazingly original perspective and insight. You feel that it makes you cooler to make bold statements that make people react in a certain way
1) :D :D :D i also do NOT like the beatles (but just because i dont like them doesnt mean i dont respect them where)
2) i dont think that i fit into either of your categories im pretty sure that im not ignorant in the field (but then again if i were ignorant then maybe i wouldnt know wether i WAS ignorant or not)
and also im not trying to shock people with my left field opinions i know of at least one other person that agrees with me ( oh wait bob kane's dead huh):D
anyways i enjoy debates/arguments wich is the point of this thread and for the MOST* part i think that that has occured and thank you for participating (most of u :D )
Originally posted by NorrinRadd
Dude, saying you don't like Batman is like saying you don't like The Beatles.
Actually, I don't like the Beatles .. but I do like Batman (had this annoying college roommate who played Beatles 24-7 and drove me to dislike them ...)
First ... the Batman character is one of the few characters, that while comics, cartoons, etc. exist ... he'll be there. Superman, and Spiderman will be also. They have backgrounds that are original, interesting, and also explain their motivations to be heros.
I tend to be more a marvel fan myself, but c'mon ... give Batman his due. You mentioned earlier that you'd read some of the great stories by Moore, Miller, and Morrison (loved Arkham Asylum). If these haven't convinced you he is a good solid character. Even if you don't like him, you can at least appreciate the character.
Joker is Batman's AE hands down. No debate. Ra's Ah Ghul is a great enemy but hasn't been the consistent threat that Joker has. Plus ... the comedic side of Joker contrasts really well with the grim nature of Batman.
Commish Gordon is Joker's AE???? Stop the InSaNiTy.
metzgarob
03/14/2003, 01:56
Originally posted by bizzaro
I tend to be more a marvel fan myself, but c'mon ... give Batman his due. You mentioned earlier that you'd read some of the great stories by Moore, Miller, and Morrison (loved Arkham Asylum). If these haven't convinced you he is a good solid character. Even if you don't like him, you can at least appreciate the character.
... the comedic side of Joker contrasts really well with the grim nature of Batman.
Commish Gordon is Joker's AE???? Stop the InSaNiTy.
1) i agree that the joker contrasts well with bats but i still dont think bats has anywhere NEAR as much to even consider joker an AE, all bats "should" consider joker is a psycho causing havoc in his city thats it
2) the bat books i listed as good ones. i think that they're good because i believe them to have a good grasp on the charachter. its a grasp that i dont think most writers/books dont have when it comes to writing bats
Originally posted by metzgarob
1) i agree that the joker contrasts well with bats but i still dont think bats has anywhere NEAR as much to even consider joker an AE, all bats "should" consider joker is a psycho causing havoc in his city thats it
Killed Robin. Crippled Batgirl. Has THE highest body count of ANY of Batman's villains (in all likelihood. That fellow who cuts himself -aszazs or some such - may be close). He's Batman's Arch-Enemy.
Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson
metzgarob
03/14/2003, 21:35
Originally posted by Clix776
That fellow who cuts himself -aszazs or some such
i believe you spell his name zasz. thelion might know though :)
uroboros
04/28/2003, 19:51
zsasz
metzgarob
05/01/2003, 01:29
that sounds right too :p
I think the fascinating thing about Batman is a) he's ultimately fighting a battle he can't win, and he KNOWS he can't win (clean up all the crime in Gotham? Riiiight) and b) his rogues are a twisted reflection of his own nature--which has an emphasis on duality and obsession.
He's a normal person in the sense that he doesn't have heat vision or a magic ring or superspeed, but he's still built himself up to be one of THE superheroes in the DCU. (The other, obviously, being Superman.) And why? Why and how has he achieved this? Because he can't not be Batman. You take that away from him and he loses the only thing he has left. That's what makes him interesting to me.
Originally posted by uroboros
zsasz
OT thought: Anyone remember The Question? He had a faceless mask and all? I know he went by Vic Sage, but wasn't his real name Charles Victor Szasz? I always wondered if they purposely made his last name so close to Zsasz's or if it was some weird coincidence.
~LM~
Threadbare
05/15/2003, 05:44
Say, didn't they do an Ultimate batman one-show back a number of years? I believe it was called YEAR ONE.
Irony intended, but perhaps I missed a point.
The whole duality-obsession thing is a good thinking topic. Every fella has his own comparison.
metzgarob
05/16/2003, 22:01
i did list year one as one of the few good bats stories
Threadbare
05/22/2003, 05:22
I know, I just thought it was amusing, since year one is very similar to an Ultimatizing.
Check out Batman Annual 8 from 1982 for his best story, followed by a special a couple of years later called "The Opposite Number". Both by Mike Barr (creator of the Outsiders).
Anyone else remember when Deathstroke beat Batman up? That was funny. I like Batman, but that was just too cool.
I also liked when The Punisher told Batman and Joker that they deserved each other, and they were both nuts.
metzgarob
06/19/2003, 14:17
ya the punisher/bats(bruce) crossover was alright.
just to add to my batman hatred, or take away from it....
i was reading an "older" brave and the bold and this is what happened. bruce buys an antique civil war jewelry box in a public auction. after the purchase he opens it up and low and behold there is a odd mis-shaped army patch from said war the vaguely resembles a bat. well of course bruce HAS to go back in time to investigate why someone back then would use such an emblem, bruce is the only one allowed to use a bat for his schtick after all. so he goes to his buddy and has him hypnotised in an experimental fashion that sends the participant back in time. when he gets there he teams up with scalphunter, defeats some soldiers from the south, helps a medical shipment get delivered, hence inspiring the patch that he originally went back to investigate.
AWEFULL AWEFULL AWEFULL
... i loved it!!!
metzgarob
06/19/2003, 14:19
ya the punisher/bats(bruce) crossover was alright.
just to add to my batman hatred, or take away from it....
i was reading an "older" brave and the bold and this is what happened. bruce buys an antique civil war jewelry box in a public auction. after the purchase he opens it up and low and behold there is a odd mis-shaped army patch from said war the vaguely resembles a bat. well of course bruce HAS to go back in time to investigate why someone back then would use such an emblem, bruce is the only one allowed to use a bat for his schtick after all. so he goes to his buddy and has him hypnotised in an experimental fashion that sends the participant back in time. when he gets there he teams up with scalphunter, defeats some soldiers from the south, helps a medical shipment get delivered, hence inspiring the patch that he originally went back to investigate.
AWEFULL AWEFULL AWEFULL
... i loved it!!!
freakazoid_x
06/19/2003, 14:29
I seem to recall a Batman story where he's abducted by aliens. The big headed black eyed ones that the rednecks who drink a lot of windex see. Anyway I guess they tested him (anal probe) and erased his memory and returned him to earth. To which he spends the rest of the story trying to remember what happened in the two hour piece of his memory that is now missing from him.
metzgarob
06/20/2003, 12:18
hey i've seen them there alien fellers....
sorry about the dub-post earlier
malchyor
06/20/2003, 12:35
that first crossover with the planetary folks was ok...except that batman won (and killed somebody, which his character would never do....). i think elisha snow could think circles around batman...
oh well.
Wasteland
06/20/2003, 13:12
I think I have to get in on this too, since I'm a non-Bats-fan
(and a non-Beatles Fan as well). I think I've stated before why I don't like Batman, but I'll summarize...They make him too good at what he does. He can beat anyone, anywhere, anytime, because at some point in his life he studied what he's up against. IE if a murderous clown came to Gotham and was going all crazy-like, well, at some point Bats will show up with the "trick" to beat the clown because he studied as a clown for many years under the clown masters and has learned all the tricks of being a clown and what a crazy homicidal clown would do next. This is what I don't like. How old is Bats? Lets say 50. In those 40 years since his parent's death, he has become a master Martial Artist, Detective, Samurai, Ninja, Scientist, etc. etc. along with running a huge business that makes him money, as well as finding time to keep in peak physical shape, as well as fighting crime in many different areas. How does one master 10 lifetimes of knowlege and ability in 1/2 a lifetime of work and time, without any superpowers and without any explanation. Batman can "beat" anyone, and can never be beaten himself...that's what I don't like about him. It's just like Wolvie fans...too many people believe he is more than he is. Superman is smarter, yet Batman can beat him. There is something that is grossly wrong with the universe. Oh well, that's just my opinion. Maybe if they gave him a weakness somehow, it would be alright. It would at least add some drama to an otherwise uninteresting character.
freakazoid_x
06/20/2003, 13:19
Batman is way smarter than Superman.
Batman is way smarter than any member of the Superman family, with the POSSIBLE exception of Steel.
Superman seems to believe that people do not recognize him when he puts on a pair of glasses.
Superman seems to believe that people do not notice when he drops a pen under his desk that rather than get on his hands and knees to get it he just lifts the desk up really fast and no one sees him.
Batman does not do any of his Batman stuff as Bruce.
Originally posted by freakazoid_x
Superman seems to believe that people do not recognize him when he puts on a pair of glasses. Superman is right.
Superman seems to believe that people do not notice when he drops a pen under his desk that rather than get on his hands and knees to get it he just lifts the desk up really fast and no one sees him.
Superman is right.
Next comments?
Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson
Wasteland
06/20/2003, 13:52
And its been shown that Superman creates all sorts of scientific gadgets and inventions beyond anything known to be human outside of known physics, extrapolating ideas from everywhere. He's just not well written most of the time, writers focusing on his brute force to solve problems rather than his wit, which he has in leaps and bounds. Batman is not nearly as smart as Supes, and I wish people would stop believing that...but everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they're wrong ( :) )
This is just fun. Here is why Batman is dumb. He could have had The Huntress as his babe if he wanted, but instead he tells her to get out of town. But he'll make time with Catwoman and Talia. That's just dumb. Even Nightwing knows a good thing when he sees it.
metzgarob
06/21/2003, 14:31
dude dont get me started on nightwing f ucking huntrress. THAT was SHIIT. and the reason that I am a big supporter in the anti-devon grayson movement.
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Stop it! You're killing me! Ha Ha Ha.
It's still better than Arsenal sleeping with Cheshire. Of course Roy is the king of Dumb.
What bothers ME the most about Batman is that he seems more his archetypal detective self outside his own book. Superman needs somebody's help to track down Lois- Call the Bat. Incomprehensibly convoluted plot to take down the JLA and devastate the earth? Batman and the Atom unravel it and crush the baddies in record time.
Even the Batman-Animated Series cartoon has him figuring out things regulary, analyzing samples in the Bat-computer and so on. I think he's a great character, ridiculously overpowered sometimes, to the point that it's almost a running joke about super villans saying "What does he matter, he's only Human" two pages before Batman whups their butts.
But hey, I like that. Symbolicly, if we look at DC heros as godlike beings, Batman is the trickster god, like Raven, Loki, Hermes, etc, who is perhaps the weakest of the gods, yet still saves all Olympus through cleverness after all the other gods have failed. That's always drawn me to Morrison's take on Batman.
Bluebeard
06/21/2003, 15:46
I've never gotten that into the Batman series' but I gotta say I love the Batman Adventures books. If you're looking for just a fun book, check it out.
metzgarob
06/22/2003, 21:22
ya batman adventures is pretty good as is all the animated/dini stuff
i should learn to watch my language
Hey! Maybe Batman is smart. Instead of facing Joker himself, he puts young kids in costumes, gives them just enough training to get into trouble, and then says "You're not ready to face The Joker." to adolecents with something to prove. Yeah! That's smart.
darius_dax1
06/29/2003, 11:56
I think BAtman is fine as is! He has morphed a lot over the years and is curently one of my favorite characters in comics!
I like Batman too. It's just fun to poke fun. I don't know if anyone else read that Adamantium thread in Another Realm. Talk about too much caffiene. Maybe we should start a Wolverine is dumb thread over in Marvel (I have every issue). Nah. Too serious.
darius_dax1
06/29/2003, 12:22
I never really liked Batman or Superman ever. I, due to good writing and characterization, now enjoy Batman most of the time. He is becoming more god-like in his scope and abilities.
TheDarkKnight
06/29/2003, 12:23
Batman is the man!
In my opinion why Batman is so unique from all the rest is his personallity. His un dieing will to protect his city safe lives. Pulling out all the stops. He doesnt sleep for days fights when he is sick. Never gives up. Sacrifices his whole life for one goal.
He is so complex in his mind. You cant sit down and 5 minutes later figure Batman out. He is just to complex and every writer brings a new look to the table. When ever he "fails" he dives deeper into his work and fights harder and faster.
Look and Superman Flash GL. They have all taken time about of their lives to get married andsettle down a little. Batman just doesnt stop. But today him and seliena things are ONLY now picking up.
So what are you thoughts on this?
Wasteland, you said,
"And its been shown that Superman creates all sorts of scientific gadgets and inventions beyond anything known to be human outside of known physics, extrapolating ideas from everywhere."
In the Silver Age perhaps; Superman's apparent 'super-inventing power' was one of the sillier part of that time. But since the Byrne revamp, Clark has simply been an ace reporter, not really a science whiz (hence the presence of Steel and Prof. Hamilton to do the sci stuff for him).
But I have to agree that we need to see more of the reporter in Superman...
I always like to hold Batman and The Punisher side by side. They are very similar. One is at the edge and one fell over. I actually think Batman keeps a Robin to make sure he doesn't fall. In other words, yes, he is very complex.
darius_dax1
06/29/2003, 12:36
I think Superman needs to have more than the reporter come to the surface. He is one of the dullest characters in comics. He needs to use his noggin more than his biceps to win the day. I can't suffer through the weekly carp that is being written now.
I have some old DC Digests that reprint a lot of the Sci-Fi Supes stories from the fifties and sixties. They are actually a lot of fun. There is one where he becomes trapped on Earth in the future under a red sun. He has to make his way to The Fortress of Solitude as a normal man in a hostile environment. Way cool.
Other than that. I joined with Byrne, and left too. Superman is a great character, but I don't blame the writers. The editorship wants him unchanging, and that as they say is that. Just have to get the good stories from Elseworlds, and when he is in JLA. What is strange is that DC has no fear of changing anything else in their universe. Just because Superman has to stay accsesible to kids, doesn't mean he has to be boring. Spider-Man isn't.
darius_dax1
06/29/2003, 13:02
I agree about the not have to be boring to be accessible to kids idea. If only some changes could be made in the writing style it would help extremely.
rgsniper1
06/29/2003, 13:45
IMHO - The thing that most people overlook about Batman is exaclty what the writers keep writing. Why is he good at so many things, he works for it. And when he's done he works more. and then more. He doesn't stop, rarely to sleep even.
Regardless, every charector in comics has there downfalls in writing. If you can think of one let me know I'de love to read about them, and if I do, I hope you can say it's going to stay that way past there current writer of the month. Batman brings the thought to comics that you or I could compete with the big boys if you were dedicated enough, I like that. Now then you could say so then everyone can beat superman, sure I guess if "everyone" was dedicated enough.... Ah Hah... So that's batmans power, he has the more dedication than practically any other human being. Interesting. Like I was saying before my tangent... to everyone, there really is no one person written that is perfect. It's funny when someone tries to say "hey look at this charectors flaws", I bet you could put that persons favorites out there and we can all find several flaws to bring them down to a more manageable level. Point of this is "It's comic books" that's life.
Oh yeah, the comment about supermans glasses: priceless.
So in summary: Batman is "THE" charector that says hey we don't need superpowers to be the best or to beat the best. You just need dedication and direction. IMHO that's a good message that ties comicbooks to real life. And yes I am a Batman fan for these reasons. And I do think that there are a lot of Batman stories that are better left untold. And I do think most of the artwork stinks right now. I have been collecting for 24 years that I can remember and can say that to me, all comics have ups and downs. And I still pretty much like them all. To all ... have a good day.
KnightShade
06/29/2003, 14:07
I have to agree with some of these people. Superman is a dull character. I mean, he might be alright for some people, but for the most part Superman is a bruser character. Stealth is definatly not in his dictionary, pretty much just his fists are. But if that's the kind of charater you like, so be it, I'm not going to argue it.
But to say Batman is the dullest charcter in DC, I don't think so. The reason that so many criminal are scared of him is not because they dont know what he looks like or that he is a myth. It's the fact that he simply is not going to hand cuff you and send you to jail, he's going to be the #### out of you, and god forbid Batman interrogates them and they don't answer right away. Besides how long do you think Batman can actually be a myth to Gotham with the amount of criminals he puts away. It just can't happen.
Also the fact that Batman joined the JLA is equally awesome. He is the only person on the team without any super powers and yet he is just as good as anyone on the team. That speaks for itself. And as you pointed out metzgarob, someone like Batman would never join the JLA. This may be true to some extent, cause c'mon at the very best Batman is only a part-time member. But the JLA is made up of the best heroes in DC, Batman deserves the right to be in it.
Jonus Albrecht
06/30/2003, 14:03
Sorry, long thread, didn't read all the posts, so if I retread, I am sorry.
The first thing I want to go over is the detective aspect of Batman. "Detective" work doesn't always mean piecing together clues and solving riddles. It means paying attention to details, and doing your homework. Batman does this alot during the Hush story. He did in the last episode after stopiing the Riddler.
The other is Batman in the JLA. I agree, he should not be exposing himself like this. He should probably either only stop by to give info and then flit off in the shadows, or make a new identity that works with the JLA. I the rest of the JLA can be as media friendly as they want. Whatever works.
Batman is easily tied to be my favorite super hero (the other being the Amazing Spider-Man).He's a great super hero that has no powers but hangs with the strongest and the most powerful,the only thing that sets him apart from the average guy wanting to hang with the big boys is that he was born rich.He never worked for this,maybe if Bruce Wayne was a self made millionaire he would have alot more fans,but he was born into riches,with the proverbial silver spoon in his mouth.So yeah,I love Batman,but that will always bother me.
I think the problem with Batmanis hat certain aspects of the character just dont work in this day and age.
Robin - Adolescent sidekick aren't kosher anymore (on several levels and for various reasons)
In my Ultimate Batman Robin would be a young ward who just lives there and hlps bats out occasionally through computer related stuff, or as a driver in emergency situations, etc. Having him wear tights is creepy and having him fight crime is irresponsible.
ALL THE GADGETS!!! - In recent isues of Batman there are shots of a multitude of Bamobiles and a multi level superbatcave. Batman does kill!!! All the construction workers and fabricators o his stuff!!! They're all buried in the Batcave.
Joker should be dead. Seriously, there's only so uch a dude can take. Arkham's revolving door is spinning with dudes escaping or being released. Batman should have lost it and killed a bunch of them already. Sorry. I'm as pacifistic as the next guy, butJoker has killed stadium fulls of people he shot Barbara Gordon and paralyzed her, etc and been let loose. If Bats won't pull the trigger Gordon Def should. PUULLLEASE!!!
That being said, Batman is a great character, he just needs a facelift.
The craziest thing is I'll believe that some lightning and chemicals can grant someone the powers ofthe Flash but I can't believe that Batman is what he s/has what he as.
The Robin thing is true,but they've been making him less and less of a sidekick so that's alright.
If anybody were to be the perfect Bat sidekick,it would have to be Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) similar costumes,a father/daughter relationship and more mental scars then you can shake a stick at,they're a good pair.
Fat Ninja
07/03/2003, 18:15
lilj, I don't think it's reallt fair to imply that Bruce was born to it, and that it's just his money that makes him what he is (which is what i think you were implying).
Yeah, the money is a vital part of him being able to be Batman, but I'd think the years and years of training, studying, fighting researching etc etc etc should get him some serious credit beyond 'ah, he had it easy he was born a billionaire'.
Hey! who would win? Adam West Batman or George Clooney Batman? I think Adam is tougher.
Dr0ctopus
07/17/2003, 05:29
I just wanted to voice my opinion...
Batman is a great comic character. He's stood the test of time, and I appreciate that. I've never read Batman comics, but I know him from the pages of JLA. I've also seen (and liked) the shows and movies. Having said that...
There are three things I dislike about Batman:
1) Batman Always Wins
It has reached the point where Batman seems to be more Invulerable than Superman. He can get out of any tight squeeze you can think of, he can defeat anyone in combat, and nothing ever goes wrong. At least, it is never his fault. In many other comics, the hero will sometimes face a degree of failure. Superman can't save everyone, Flash can't protect his own family, and Green Lantern has relationship problems. Batman seems to tie everything up by the end though. Every little kid is saved, every criminal in jail. In short: If there is not chance of loss, there is no excitement.
2) The Blind Bat-Fans
Batman is very popular and has a lot of fans. There is nothing wrong with that. I have no problem with fans of anything. But one problem I have with Bat-Fans is that Bat-Fans often get the idea that Batman is 100% unbeatable. Almost no thought is given to any fight. If Batman is fighting, Batman is going to win. He could be fighting Jesus and fans think Batman would win. I can't fully appreciate a character who is automatically the assumed winner in any scenerio. (Side Note: I blame Dark Knight for all this. After Batman beat Superman, everyone tought Batman was God and Superman was a wuss. I hate that comic.)
3) Bow to the Bat
Not real people, but comic characters. Every villian in the comic curses Batman and every hero practically begs Batman for help. It seems every issue of JLA has someone asking Batman "So what's your plan? You always have a plan. We need your plan." It gets annoying after a while. Furthermore, there always seems to be a comic where everyone is stripped of their powers. What to do? Send in Batman. Just once I'd like to see a comic where everyone is stripped of Intellect. Just send in the JLA swinging; We'll see how far Batman gets.
metzgarob
07/22/2003, 04:15
george clooney no question
Burt Ward vs. Chris O'Donnel
and the impossible choice:
Julie Newmar vs. Michelle Pfeiffer
Chris on the first, and I can't choose on the second.
Yvonne Craig as Batgirl is no contest. I'm afraid Alicia loses there.
FsharpBell
07/26/2003, 18:24
[Ok...how does Batman know when and where thugs are going to strike? I mean...he ALWAYS stops, like, every stinkin' crime in Gotham, but how does he know where they all are?
4 words : Word on the street.
Since he never spends time as Bruce Wayne anymore, this leaves a lot of time for stalking (sarcasm intended).
Has anyone else noticed Bats is Batman all the time. Bruce Wayne is just a tool in his closet, like Bat pellets. This really started after the death of Jason Todd. I don't think Batman wants to deal with human emotions.
Shortest_Man
07/29/2003, 22:27
BATMANBATMANBATMANBATMAN
so mr bat hater who do you like?
eh????
We don't hate the Batman himself, just most of his recent writing. I keep hoping one day Mike Barr will return to remind us of why we used to love Batman. He's probably squirming over what is being done to his Outsiders though. Mike Barr is the best writer Bats ever had, and Jim Aparo his best artist. I do have to say that Loeb and Lee are doing a great job of bringing back the greatness.
metzgarob
07/30/2003, 13:35
1) for Briel
a)Burt Ward, I hate Odonnel as Dicck. I cant emphasize HATE enough on that. grrr....
b)either way is fine by me not a fan of either :)
2) for shorty
a) i have already previously stated Superman as my idol, and Nightwing as my favorite DC guy.
b)other than that i like Superboy, Captain America, Bullseye, Bizarro, Flash is pretty good... thats all im coming up with right now
3) SPOILER AHEAD *********
a) does anyone else love the Jason Todd back from the dead thing in Batman 617. I did. I loved the last page with him holding tim at blade point.... oh excellent.
metzgarob
07/30/2003, 13:39
ALSO
im lazy and dont want to read back through MY OWN POST....
can someone some-up for me why everyone is saying that supes is dull (boring etc.) so i can argue this to death also....
thanks
malchyor
07/30/2003, 13:44
agree with you about nightwing. he's what bats should be.
wish you hadn't given that spoiler. i signed up for a contest on DC's site to guess the identity of hush and was surprized that todd was included in the list. i thought it was a joke. i mean, yeah, it's cool. but, wish i'd read it and screamed in the comic store rather than screaming here in my office.
hope hush doesn't die (again). i want him to stick around really bad. (and maybe plague nightwing as a good arch enemy....).
SPOILER
Originally posted by metzgarob
SPOILER AHEAD *********
a) does anyone else love the Jason Todd back from the dead thing in Batman 617. I did. I loved the last page with him holding tim at blade point.... oh excellent.
I'm not certain how I should react to this.
Assuming this is real...and Todd isn't some manifestation of Scarecrow's toxin...
I love the idea that a character from waaaaay back is after Bats (especially one so close to him as Jason Todd).
But Denny O'Neal, I believe, said something along the lines of: "It would be a real cheap stunt to bring him back."
In the back of my mind I feel the same way.
KidRenegade619
07/30/2003, 16:58
Here is my legal disclaimer: I don't read DC comics everytime I try I just find them boring.
Like most other people I have grown to know batman through mass media such as the series(cartoon) and movies
and the justice league cartoon so I may be wrong in my own opinion but the fact is I don't likie batman! I hate him everything about him erks me the whole human thing fighting crime kicking superman's as$, that should never happen Kryptonite or no superman should be able to stop him long before anything happens. I don't like superman mainly because of the fact that he can do just about anything
I have never foiund people with all of the powers in one to be interesting but that's just me superman and batman both are lame in my opinion but please know that I don't read DC just the mass media versions!:grin:
It is a major misconception that Superman can do anything. This was corrected way back in the eighties, and it is really only in the mass media where this notion still flourishes. He is incredibly tough, but not a god. Thor and Silver Surfer are more powerful for example. What Superman is possesed of, like Captain America, is an unfailing moral compass. Do the right thing, always, no matter the cost. This does not make him boring, it makes him a role model. What is needed are better writers, and villains to show why it is important that someone like Supes must hold the line.
Fat Ninja
07/31/2003, 16:52
Amen to that, Briel. Superman can be great when done properly. It's short-sighted to just dismiss him with the 'oh, he's too powerful to be interesting' arguement.
Though I disagree about Batman being dumb. Both characters when done right are IMHO as good as it gets in comics.
They are the icons they are for a reason:
They're both awesome. :classic:
A closer look at Metz's arguement reveals that it isn't Batman who is dumb, but rather his treatment by his writers in recent years. I applaud the new Loeb/Lee run, because it is the first sign of the human behind the bat since "A Lonely Place of Dying" many years ago. Also, DK Strikes was cool too. Even better than the first one, which is saying a lot.
TheUsed70
08/01/2003, 04:31
ok ive stated this many of times before but here it is again i dont read a lot of comics but one that i pick up every now and again is batman he is one of the most intresting characters ever created and he is not unbeatable like droctopus said remember when bane broke his back???? and he is always coming up with plans that is in a way "his power" with that i mean his intellegence but this is just my opinion
I think you still misunderstand what I am saying. "Bruce Wayne" has been missing from the equation for a long time. He is back now. It is important to get inside of the main character's head from time to time, to build empathy. This is finally happening again.
The reference to Knightfall left me wanting to say just one more thing. I was deeply saddened by the death of Azrael. He was a truly orignal character who will be missed.
CensusTaker
08/01/2003, 05:15
I don't think it would be lame to bring *cough cough* him back from the dead, as the death wasa cheap deatha anyway (readers poll? Please!) Killing Joke was ####e. No emotion whatsoever, just some cheep thrills. Joker himself has survived worse explosions anyway, so I think it should be more than plasuable that JT could survive (and hate Bats now) and it makes sence as to who would use all the old rogues gallery against Bats without their knowing... Where as #### was always the acrobatic rival of Bats, Jason always showed the greater potential as a mastermind/detective.
CensusTaker
08/01/2003, 05:24
Oops forgot about the swearing thing... its funny that I can't right #### Grayson though. Good old Robin 1/Nightwing it is then.
Wow,way to much to keep track of.
It's totaly nuts that JT is back,this is quite interesting and I hope he stays alive this time around
Is there anyone else that might think that JT isn't on top of the totem pole? Is there someone pulling his strings?
I really like the Hush storyline,almost like a who's who of Batman,except we haven't seen Batgirl yet,unfortunately.
The death of Azrael wasn't tragic in the least,maybe if DC decided to give him a better writer I'd have felt bad about his passing since Azrael in the Bat armor is what got me into comics.
And why doesn't anyone in Gotham give a #### about Azrael's death,you don't see his costume hanging in the bat cave by Jason Todd's.
It's kind of funny that you call the writer bad, since he created the character in the first place. He also wrote the whole series. Denny O'Neil also gave us Green Lantern/Green Arrow in the seventies. His revival of The Question in the eighties is arguably one of the five best comic series ever. He is also the creator of Ra's Al Ghul, and along with Neal Adams saved Batman from the fifties and sixties, giving us the Dark Knight we know today. Azrael's death was rushed, due I believe to Denny not wanting anyone else to touch him, and sudden cancellation.
metzgarob
08/02/2003, 14:45
Originally posted by Briel
It's kind of funny that you call the writer bad, since he created the character in the first place. He also wrote the whole series. Denny O'Neil ... ...and along with Neal Adams saved Batman from the fifties and sixties, giving us the Dark Knight we know today.
Ah... so they're to blame
GammaBomb
08/02/2003, 14:53
I think Batman suffers from poor parenting. What parents in their right frame of mind would walk down a place labled "Crime Alley" in the middle of the night? Honestly...
Well who else is to blame for the Azrael sucking so bad? He seemed to be doing good when he was Batman.He had alot of potential but no one seemed to cash in on it.
metzgarob
08/15/2003, 01:59
please explain this potential you speak of
I liked the point of the Azrael series. An organisation tured him into a weapon. He wanted to be human. I think most of the detractors here, wanted Azrael to be The Punisher with blades. They got a man on a journey to better himself.
For some reason I have no desire to buy it, but it seems the new Supes/Bats book should be called World's Finest. Actually, I think I'm scared to buy it because I would have to collect like 8 Superman and Batman books to know what is going on in one book. I have always loved McGuiness' art though. Everyone read Mister Majestic.
FoxInStocks
08/15/2003, 15:25
Originally posted by Briel
The reference to Knightfall left me wanting to say just one more thing. I was deeply saddened by the death of Azrael. He was a truly orignal character who will be missed.
Azrael died!?!?! When did this happen? I know I've missed an issue here and there...
I was wondering why Azzie was MIA lately. :P
Azrael was killed in his last issue, #100, with the implication that he has moved on to a better place.
metzgarob
12/25/2003, 00:56
wow i havent posted in a while :)
I HAVE FOUND SOME GOOD BATMAN STUFF... i say again... I HAVE FOUND SOME GOOD BATMAN STUFF.
that stuff.... in JLA/AVENGERS #3 jarvis gives bats a cup of tea and he procedes to drink... AS BATMAN!!! its so silly its GREAT!!! this also happened in DK2 #3 after being beat up on by LL he just sits back and watches hawk-boy(?) bash LL's head in... did i mention WHILE SIPPING TEA!!! good stuff lets see more of it.
So...
you thought Batman was a lame character for the last 60+ years...
until you saw him drink tea.
Twice.
I'm sure Batman is relieved.
No. But after drinking all that tea, he probably had to go get relieved. LOL!
Wow! Between this and two ressurected threads over in Marvel, it's like old home week.
So let me see if old Metz agrees wth something. In the new Supes/Bats series, Superman gets shot with a kryptonite bullet. A bullet that Supes should have heard coming, and dodged easily with his speed.
Are we now going back to the old days of making stupid stuff happen to Supes, so it will look like Batman is important and needed. What is this? Hero moral support club? "Hey Bats. I'll get shot just so you have something important to do."
EvilGenius
12/25/2003, 16:50
Originally posted by Briel
So let me see if old Metz agrees wth something. In the new Supes/Bats series, Superman gets shot with a kryptonite bullet. A bullet that Supes should have heard coming, and dodged easily with his speed.
Are we now going back to the old days of making stupid stuff happen to Supes, so it will look like Batman is important and needed. What is this? Hero moral support club? "Hey Bats. I'll get shot just so you have something important to do."
I hope that the story doesn't revert to that. But there are still plenty of times when Superman doesn't use his superspeed to get out of the way of various bullets, lasers, melee weapons and fists, and just lets whatever it is hit him. 'Cause really, what's the harm? ;)
metzgarob
12/25/2003, 19:57
POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR ANYONE THAT CARES***********
************************************************
Originally posted by Briel
Wow! Between this and two ressurected threads over in Marvel, it's like old home week.
let the good times roll!!!!
So let me see if old Metz agrees wth something. In the new Supes/Bats series, Superman gets shot with a kryptonite bullet. A bullet that Supes should have heard coming, and dodged easily with his speed.
well, this is a problem ive always had with kryptonite. its the radiation that kryptonite gives off that affects supes right? my question is how close does supes have to be to be affected by the radiation, arms reach, 50 yards, 10 miles.
metallo was fairly close to supes when he fired so theoretically his reflexes couldve been slowed enough to where he might not have been able to move away.
ALSO in said story there is "supposedly" a large hunk of krypton (kryptonite) heaaded for earth and implied doom. and has bats has stated a few times now "i wonder if clark is being affected by it (the comet) yet" so that also may have slowed his reflexes.
evil genius is also right in that "y would he HAVE to dodge a bullet, whoops too late" senario
Are we now going back to the old days of making stupid stuff happen to Supes, so it will look like Batman is important and needed. What is this? Hero moral support club? "Hey Bats. I'll get shot just so you have something important to do."
oh worthless bats. as you all know i do hate what batman has become. on that i think that supes also "kinda" agrees with me. Supes probably does admire bats drive and or effort as he had mentioned in the books. but i also think that supes being a good guy (unlike myself) does do things to help boost bats ego as it were. make him feel needed and important. If supes didnt do this bats would feel useless and kill himself, as he should.
Man Superman/Batman (the book) is good despite of all its faults. in issue 4 it was awesome captain marvel only had to whisper to whoop bats... thats a plus. heres a minus, hawkman beating supes in one punch please.
oh hcrealms how i missed you
Maniac_nmt
12/25/2003, 20:25
Superman seems to believe that people do not recognize him when he puts on a pair of glasses.
Ever watch the series Lois and Clark. The one where they tavel back in time and Lois faces Tempus is priceless.
Tempus talking to Lois -
*Tempus puts glasses on*
"I'm Clark Kent" *takes them off* "No, I'm SUPERMAN!" *on* "Clark Kent" *off again* "Superman, duh, hello! You must be the most galactically stupid person on Earth!!"
That was so classic.
drgnoftyr
12/25/2003, 20:36
i saw that episode lois writes a note to herself but throw's it away or something it was great
metzgarob
12/25/2003, 23:49
Originally posted by Maniac_nmt
*Tempus puts glasses on*
"I'm Clark Kent" *takes them off* "No, I'm SUPERMAN!" *on* "Clark Kent" *off again* "Superman, duh, hello! You must be the most galactically stupid person on Earth!!"
That was so classic.
i dont know about classic... overdone and a little cliched but i wouldnt say classic.
it just bugs me that this one segment of one scene seems to be the only thing that anyone remembers from the show.anyways....
drgnoftyr
12/25/2003, 23:59
i remember lot's Bout that show that's just one of my fav moments cause lois finally relizes that clark is supes in a later ep
CensusTaker
12/26/2003, 08:28
Yeah, but to be fair Dean Cain on Lois & Clarke never really sold the `dule identity' thing like say Christopher Reeve tried too. In those movies he didn't just put on glasses; he totally changed his voice, his posture, his hair his manurisms... and Lois, Lex & Lex' lackeys were the only people alive who even got a good close llok at Superman, while menewhile Lois always ignored Clarke, and never really looked at him, so it wasn't as foolish an idea as it seamed in Lois & Clarke (which, given a Luthor with hair, barely deserves to be called a superman show anyway). Back to Batman and usefulness... Batman's chief use in the DC U is that he stops normal humans from wholesale resenting superhumans like they do in the MU (even the Avengers cop it a bit). That's what the whole point of Kingdom Come was!
While Lois and Clark danced between the awesome extended storyines, and some fluff filler stories, both the actors did an awesome job. I feel Dean Cain should get to be in Superman movies, and Teri Hatcher was the greatest Lois ever. She made what has always been a pompous unlikeable character into a sympathetic three dimensional one.
Of course they could have called The Teri Hatcher show, and we all would have watched it.
metzgarob
12/27/2003, 16:50
Originally posted by Briel
Of course they could have called The Teri Hatcher show, and we all would have watched it.
you know it
CreatureByNite
12/27/2003, 17:06
Terri Hatcher is working at Radio Shack right now... Would you like some "D" batteries? Would I!
hi im tom
12/27/2003, 17:17
"Batman=dumb"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!:laugh: :laugh:
LOL thanks for the good laugh buddy
metzgarob
12/27/2003, 20:58
uh buh
uh no problemo my main man yee hee woo hoo
hi im tom
12/27/2003, 23:43
now that i actually read the post i dont think batman is a dumb charecter (he is my favorite) but an ultimate like batman would be cool all the same.
Batman was Ultimized already. That was the whole point of Frank Miller's Year One. Anything pre-Crisis didn't happen.
I just read a friend's Bat/Supes #4. THE BIG RED CHEESE DOWNS BATMAN!
That was beautiful man! (a tear in my eye)
Say the word.
Come on! Say it!
SHAZAM!
Oh yes!
hi im tom
12/28/2003, 00:42
year one was a great ####ing book.
so is killing joke.
so is DKR.
so is arkham asylum.
so is long halloween.
how again do you hate batman?
metzgarob
12/28/2003, 00:58
i hate batman because u have listed 5 stories consisting of somewhere between 22-25 issues out of the HUNDREDS of issues out there
( not to mention the other billion reasons i already listed)
hi im tom
12/28/2003, 01:04
but i didnt post every good batman story. that would take up WAY too much bandwith.
and almost every superman comic i have ever read sucked except supes for all seasons and a few others. and the 5 i listed were revolutionary stories. they hade a huge impact on comics itself.
but thats just my opinion, no need for this thread to turn into flame central.
metzgarob
12/28/2003, 01:09
turn into????
:)
hi im tom
12/28/2003, 01:11
:laugh: :laugh:
Originally posted by PantherPriest
Mp, was a good catwoman. But I thought catwoman was puerto rican? But like they ever care.
Selina Kyle is Puerto Rican?
New on me.
Batman is misunderstood. Some sing his praises ("he can beat anyone"), his series (many are legendary)
The idea of Batman is that he is a normal human in a world of metahumans and can hold his own.
In the real world, no human could possible be as well trained and knowledgeable as the Batman. This ain't the real world we're talking about? Are you pissed at Richie Rich because he has too much money? or Archie because he is banging Veronica and you want her?
Can Bats take anyone down? Given time, maybe
Supes/Bats he gets dropped by Captain Marvel (Shazam for you Marvel zombies. Although he predates Mar-vell by several decades) because he doesn't expect to fight him (and Cap also has the Wisdom of Solomon. DC has pretty much admitted that Cap is stronger than even Superman. Superman's edge is his sheer willpower)
metzgarob
12/28/2003, 01:58
Originally posted by BigSoph
Selina Kyle is Puerto Rican?
New on me.
same here but i dont really read catwoman anyways
Originally posted by BigSoph
In the real world, no human could possible be as well trained and knowledgeable as the Batman. This ain't the real world we're talking about?
i dont understand the question... but that is my biggest problem, i have a hard time understanding that comics arent real
Originally posted by BigSoph
Are you pissed at Richie Rich because he has too much money? or Archie because he is banging Veronica and you want her?
thats an affirmative on both counts
Originally posted by BigSoph
Supes/Bats he gets dropped by Captain Marvel (Shazam for you Marvel zombies. Although he predates Mar-vell by several decades) because he doesn't expect to fight him (and Cap also has the Wisdom of Solomon. DC has pretty much admitted that Cap is stronger than even Superman. Superman's edge is his sheer willpower)
i will admit that cap has the upperhand as much as it pains me ( for he is magically enhanced with no real weakness)
GoldenAge
12/28/2003, 12:36
Originally posted by Briel
Batman was Ultimized already. That was the whole point of Frank Miller's Year One. Anything pre-Crisis didn't happen.
I just read a friend's Bat/Supes #4. THE BIG RED CHEESE DOWNS BATMAN!
That was beautiful man! (a tear in my eye)
Say the word.
Come on! Say it!
SHAZAM!
Oh yes!
Oh Briel... You KNOW where I stand on this one...
SHAZAM!
For the claim that there have been no good Superman stories, I direct you to John Byrne's run, and a little series called Kingdome Come.
Also (and this is coming from a Marvel fanatic), Superman I & II constitute the greatest super-hero film ever! X2 is perfectly written, directed, and acted, but the first Superman captured a sense of wonder, magic, and hope.
Originally posted by metzgarob
just so yall know i think batman is just a lame charachter i hate him i dont mind the clix just think that the concept of batman needs to be redone... like if dc had ultimate books (like marvel) then i think that bats should be the first one to be ultimized
anyone with me on this
(just cuz i was in the mood to post something new)
You're a looser....
Superman fans...I hate them.
ontapmedia
12/28/2003, 16:29
Ok well without reading 9 pages of posts here is my response to the first few posts from the original poster.
A.)Batman is a big character and is interpeted by dozens of writers every year. I mean he has at least 4 titles of his own,
Batman, Detective, Gotham Knights, Legends of the Dark Knight.
He appears in other titles:
Batman/Superman, JLA, Robin, Teen Titans, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, Green Arrow, Nightwing, and various Elseworld titles every year.
The way I look at the different versions of Bats is the way I think we as people are.
I am not one dimensional. I have good and bad days. Sometimes I am a more rational thinker and sometimes I'm like a bull in a china shop.
There are people who look at the Bat and see a pulp hero akin to the 1930's and 40's. Others see a human who walks the thin line between the real world and the mystical. It feeds off the whole superstious and cowardly lot image. He can be as gritty as an episode of CSI with as many scientific explanations or as dynamic as a Jackie Chan film.
He has so many layers and each writer and reader has their own take. You also have silver age fans who love the Sprang, campy Batman. He served his part in my childhood. I'm 30.
I grew up with the Aparo/Adams/O'Neil/ Grant/ Breyfogle versions. I enjoy Bats because just like me and I'm sure just like you he has many facades.
As far as him being put ahead of many other DC big brains? ... Tough call. I think Bats's strenght is that he is incredibly well rounded and he still needs to rely on people like Lucius Fox, Barbara Gordon, Leslie Thompkins, Alfred Pennyworth, Shiva (when his back was broken) It was recently shown that he had grifted some of Mr. Terrific's Technology in JLA.
His true smarts lie in knowing where to find the answers. In many JLA stories I think it is more often that Batman makes the tough choices that the other would be to afraid or compassionate to make.
Batman is as insane as any of his enemies. His mental trauma compells him to commit insane acts under the pretense that he is serving a higher purpose in either justice or vengence.
10-15 years of being Batman seem to have made him a pretty knowlegable person on many fields related to his quest such as psychology, weapons, technology, sciences, multiple forms of combat and deduction.
Is batman the most premiere scientist in every field? No.
I think it also looks like he's the smartest when you look at Marvel who has tons of Scientist and Genius intellects.
Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Hank McCoy, Charles Xavier, Bruce Banner, Dr. Octavius, Dr. Stephen Strange (only an MD)Dr. Doom (Not truly a Dr of any sort but a genius none the less) Bolivar Trask, Nathanel Essex, Dr. Curt Connors, Dr. Michael Morbius, Norman Osbourne,
DC has Ted Kord(Computer and technology), John Henry Irons(Weaponsmith and rocket science presumably), Lex Luthor, Dr. Hugo Strange, Dr. Silvana, Mr. Mind (He's a worm!?!) Gorilla Grodd (He's an Ape?!?), Mister Terrific(Supposedly all fields), Ultra Human-nite, Dr. Midnight(Medicine), Jessie Quick, Cyborg's Dad (I can't remember the name) Barry Allen (Police Forensics), Jay Garrick (Chemist), Rex Tyler (Physics), Toyman,
The point is that DC big brains have a defined (realistic limit to thier intellect) in that they are specialized mostly. Then again some of their brillant minds are trapped in gorillas, worms and so on so they don't jump to the forefront of memory when thinking super genius unless your writing an episode of Twisted Mego Theatre for Toy Fare.
I think Bats is smart but he's not smarter then anyone of thos specialists but like some real people he has enough knowledge to be dangerous.
I don't like Batman myself, I've never really cared for him, when I read a comic I want to root for the hero to save the day but when I read a Batman comic I root for the villian to beat up the Bat, that shouldn't be. I don't know what it is about him but I just don't like him, and I have read his comics on occasion and whenever someone tells me that I HAVE to read this one becuase it's so great, I read it and I still don't like him. I liked the First Batman movie but that was because Jack as the Joker was frickin' awesome. So go ahead and call me an idoit, or a loser, or lame for not liking Batman I don't really care, I just don't like him and it's my opinion. I don't care if you like him or not it's your choice and whatever your choice is it's ok with me. And yes I've read the Lee version and the Millar version and most of the ones stated so many times throughout this thread and none of them changed my mind about Batman, for me he's a mediocre character who I just can't seem to root for. And for the record there is no way a regular human should ever be able to beat a superhuman no matter how smart he is. Batman beating Superman is wrong plain and simple.
That's "loser".
He might be "looser". That however, would be a different subject. LOL!
Forget Bats and Supes though. When are we going to get the Ultimate Gambit ongoing?
Everyone should watch the old Batman TV show and have a good time.
metzgarob
12/28/2003, 16:52
Originally posted by ontapmedia
He has so many layers and each writer and reader has their own take. You also have silver age fans who love the Sprang, campy Batman. He served his part in my childhood. I'm 30.
but noone has hit MY take yet... :)
Originally posted by ontapmedia
Is batman the most premiere scientist in every field? No.
exactimo....
Originally posted by ontapmedia
I think Bats is smart but he's not smarter then anyone of thos specialists but like some real people he has enough knowledge to be dangerous.
thats exactly my point (or one of them) he ISNT as smart as most the smartees in dc.
ok i will buy that some real people can be problematic with their knowledge and how they use it... but with batmans limited knowledge (although i will admit he DOES have SOME) who, other than thugs or other "normal humans", can he use his knowledge dangerously against.
Originally posted by briel
Everyone should watch the old Batman TV show and have a good time.
aye.... THOSE are good batman stories.
Originally posted by gambit
You're a looser....
Superman fans...I hate them.
oh ya well you sir are a poozer!!!!
ontapmedia
12/28/2003, 16:56
Metgarob,
I think you may have missed my point. A well rounded mind is by far more dangerous in almost any situation.
I take it you don't like James Bond either?
not liking Batman is a point of view. Your entitled.
I just don't share it.
- Terrence
darius_dax1
12/28/2003, 16:57
From your first post you asked if anyone else thought that Batman should be 'ultimized'. Well it looks like Superman is going to get that treatment, yet again, I might add.
metzgarob
12/28/2003, 17:06
Originally posted by darius_dax1
From your first post you asked if anyone else thought that Batman should be 'ultimized'. Well it looks like Superman is going to get that treatment, yet again, I might add.
what is this story of wich u speak...
i know birthright is probably the closest they have come....
and I know they have that godfall coming out....
but i wouldnt call either of them really ultimate versions...
what have you heard friend?
Originally posted by ontapmedia
I take it you don't like James Bond either?
i like him ok although i dont own any of his movies
Originally posted by ontapmedia
not liking Batman is a point of view. Your entitled.
you know it :)
hi im tom
12/28/2003, 18:01
Originally posted by metzgarob
what is this story of wich u speak...
i know birthright is probably the closest they have come....
and I know they have that godfall coming out....
but i wouldnt call either of them really ultimate versions...
what have you heard friend?
in superman 200 he is having a soft revamp which ties him into the birthright continuum
darius_dax1
12/28/2003, 18:04
There is also supposed to be a whole new set of creative teams to take on the Man of Steel. I have heard Grant Morrison's name tossed aroud as one of the writers.
GoldenAge
12/28/2003, 23:25
Just a quick note on Batman and his intelligence...
I might agree that the Bat isn't a supra-genius (a la Wile Coyote) in multiple sciences. He's good to great, but no more. His real strength lies in his roots as a detective... wait, let me explain.
Throughout his many years as an icon of vengeance Batman's chief ability has been his innate ability to decipher clues and codes (as parodied in almost every episode of the TV spoof). Batman is something of a savant where cryptography is concerned. He can take the most obscure elements and glean from them the solution to any puzzle. (The creation of the Riddler as one of his major nemeses was an opportunity to display this talent)
Now, take that ability and apply it to his modern day adventures... and computers. With this lone cognitive ability Batman is able to access the minds of a million specialists and their lives work. There is NO known security system that can hold the Bat at bay. When this level of available information is coupled with a man who is grudgingly agreed to have a basic working knowledge of dozens of sciences you have the most dangerous person alive.
Batman doesn't know everything, but he knows how to find what he needs and has the skills and means to apply that knowledge towards his intended goal.
Thanagarian and Kryptonian technology topple even the greatest achievements of earthbound geniuses like Steel, Lex Luthor and Mr. Terrific. Batman has access to all their secrets and perhaps more.
With his resources and intellect Batman is truly all that many claim him to be.
It's just like ontapmedia said:
"His (Batman's) true smarts lie in knowing where to find the answers."
Oh, and ontapmedia... NEVER forget the brain-power of Ray Palmer (The Atom) (Physics, Micro-Biology and all things quantized ;)
metzgarob
12/30/2003, 02:53
Originally posted by GoldenAge
"His (Batman's) true smarts lie in knowing where to find the answers."
but everyone knows all you have to do is look in the back for the answers
hi im tom
12/30/2003, 17:15
but thats only the odd #s!
Yes. But even if you guess right on only 50% of the evens, that is still 75%. That's a passing grade. Not great, but passing.
metzgarob
01/12/2004, 23:15
but if u guess wrong on the evens then you pass nothing...
ontapmedia
01/13/2004, 12:43
I'm frustrated that many don't understand the simple power of knowing where to find the answers when they are not redily available.
How often have you sat and watched someone complain about how they can't do/get/have/accomplish something and you knew if only they applied themselves.
If only they took five minutes out of bellowing about how lost or miserable they were that they could invest that time looking for a solution.
How often have you watched people panic under pressure and as a result make matters worse?
If they'd remained calm and thought out their circumstances they could have prevailed without fail. Instead they either had to be rescued, assisted or they failed or even died.
How many people do you watch who waste their own time and ultimately yours because they are unable or unwilling to do what needs to be done in a timely manner?
What about the people who are never prepared because they don't consider the possibilities and consequences?
Batman is always thinking. Always contemplating the what ifs. He doesn't waste any time he puts every free second towards his mission. Learning more, expanding his crimefighting arsenal. He is as driven as they come and determined to a fault.
He has also served as a mentor to several proteges. While not the greatest father figure by his only admission he has been a teacher without equal and been a ideal of kind of difference an individual can make.
- Terrence
metzgarob
01/14/2004, 16:44
Originally posted by ontapmedia
If they'd remained calm and thought out their circumstances they could have prevailed without fail. Instead they either had to be rescued, assisted or they failed or even died.
i have never NEVER seen someone die let alone need to be rescued due to panic under pressure.
the most i ever see one panic is lack of proper funds for comics/clix
Originally posted by ontapmedia
Batman is always thinking. Always contemplating the what ifs. He doesn't waste any time he puts every free second towards his mission. Learning more, expanding his crimefighting arsenal. He is as driven as they come and determined to a fault.
he may be fairly driven but apparrently not enough to accomplish anything... gotham is in the worst state that its possibly ever been in... that shows very little for his efforts what little there is. just cuz he thinks alot doesnt mean richard. im sure that half of arkham thinks alot too.
Originally posted by ontapmedia
He has also served as a mentor to several proteges. While not the greatest father figure by his only admission he has been a teacher without equal and been a ideal of kind of difference an individual can make.
teacher without equal? puh-lease. what did batty teach any of his "kids" that they couldnt learn elsewhere. batty is just a creepy creepy man ( thats all ive got to say about that) and again what difference is this individual making that any other hero isnt doing a better job of. ( not to mention superman
metzgarob
01/14/2004, 16:46
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ontapmedia
01/14/2004, 17:36
You know, I respect your opinion but you are not worth the trouble of debating.
Firstly to address my thoughts and your "retorts" on Batman's drive and the idea that batman is constantly thinking which you take out of context.
Batman is driven to the point that he has all but forsaken his life as Bruce Wayne. Bruce is just a mask Batman wears so he can fund his crusade while also contributing to Gotham's well being whether it's done throught the jobs the Wayne Foundation and WayneTech provide or the various grant, contribution and other funding Wayne provides to various charitable and social needed groups, shelters, clinics and establishments.
How many other figures in Gotham perform better because of Bruce/Batman ... some examples include Barbara Gordon who as a result is the imformation provider to almost every hero on the planet. Would she be able to do what she does to the level that she does if not for both the earlier guidance and ongoing funding that Bruce surely provides to her for her technology.
Leslie Thompkins is another example of someone who is an amazing hero within Gotham providing to those who have fallen through the cracks who may not have insurance or for one reason or another can not seek hospital care. She has done an admirable job caring for those no one else would. She has survived and persevered in many cases because of the medicine and supplies as well as equipment and a facility all provided by Bruce Wayne.
Harold was another example of someone who had a sad history and was given a purpose to do some good with his unique talent despite his deformity and mental issues.
In more then two stories I can think of Bruce Wayne provided scholarships,