I made a custom Punisher, how is this dial?

[The Stinger]

I made a custom Punisher out of the Bullseye sculpt and out of a Shield agent sculpt.

He looks pretty cool, and Im working on a dial for him. I was thinking of using this one.

I used the dial generator program from over in Project HC forum.

He has 10 range, 3 arrows.



Speed: 7(ST), 7(ST), 6(RS), 6(RS), 6, 5
Attack: 11, 10, 9(EE), 9(EE), 8, 7
Defense: 17(T), 16(T), 15(T), 14(WP), 12(WP), 11(WP)
Damage: 2(RCE), 2(RCE), 2(PER), 2(PER), 1(OW), 1(OW)

No team affiliation, he comes to 60 points

Stealth and RCE to start, for him being a sniper, then he gets Running shot and Perplex with EE. He can move and shoot, or Up his attack on a 3 hit EE attack to 10. His last clix of damage are outwit for when he is smart enough to initiate a tactical retreat.

His defense is toughness for the first 3 for his Kevlar, then Willpower to represent his perserverence.

His base damage is 2 for the most part, I figure he can handle himself in close combat, but he isnt going to hurt the likes of Thing with a punch though.

He only has 6 clix of life, but he could be healed pretty easy.

What do you guys think of this, or am I way off on his dial?

[Super_Member]

The obvious no's no's for me is 10 range and 3 arrows. Sure he kills a lot of gansters in a matter of seconds, but what hero can't take a couple gansters at once, MAYBE two arrows on his vet. The majority of guns have a range of six with exceptions so maybe a range of 8 would be alright. He shouldn't be able to pop 3 different super hero's for one damage each from 10 range when one superpowered being would require all his focus. It just wouldn't represent his character very well. No toughness either, it just doesnt seem right.

I am a fanboy of the Punisher too! So I'm not jumping on you, just giving my two cents.

[The Stinger]

Point taken

Dropped it to 8 range, 2 arrows.

I think toughness is okay because he only has it for 3 clicks, and the damage is only reduced by one, so 1 hit from the likes of Thor will put him past those clicks and onto willpower. If Cyclops can take a shot from thor and live, then ol Frank castle should be able to as well.

He's not a figure that can run with the superpower guys, he only has 6 life. But he could hold his own against the likes of hydra and shield agents, hence the 3 clicks of toughness. This way, 1 hit from a big player and his toughness is out and he's running on willpower to get himself medical attention.

Changes make his point total now at 58 points


Any other suggestions?

[Akakrz]

Look no offense, but your dial is really over powered.

10 range? 3 targets? yeah, i'm glad those are down....

First of all, Punisher is ONLY human. Thats it.....nothing more nothing less. Even with Kevlar armor, he should have two click of toughness at most. Just because they gave the "Metropolis SCU" veteran two clicks, so punished does deserve that much. Giving him three is pushing it. Wolverine only has two, and punisher is no where near that strong.....unless his "Kevlar" was made of admantium :D

Anyways, you are gonna be looking at one of the cheapest, most unbalanced figure thus far if you make Punisher have Stealth AND the longest Range in Marvel with stealth AND the most damage of a stealthed character. Your Punisher owns "three" titles to himself. For only 58 points? no no.

Punisher does NOT need to be denting characters like Thor or Hulk for two damage. (2+RCE). True, you CAN justify Punisher having that good of damage, but you can justify ANYONE in heroclix having that power.

If you haven't noticed, he uses guns......Not "optical blasts" like Cyclops. Not Lightning bolts like Storm. Just normal bullets.....Like what Nick fury uses. But Frank Castle is a great fighter as well. So why not just go with either a soild 3 on the first click, then drop to 2 then 1 damage. Having Frank Castle shooting for 4 damage with 11 to hit isn't really fair.

Again, I feel his defense is way to high. 17 is a great defense, that doesn't suit him. Hes not fast, not agile, just a greatly trained human......Compare him (MAYBE) on Batmans level, and you'll see even Batman only gets 16 defense. And we all know Batman should not be out done by the Punisher.

Energy Explosion is a must.....I view the power being "grenades" in this case.

Perplex.....I dunno, another power that you can justify on anyone. Same goes for outwit, but I don't think I see Punisher being that much of a "strategist" to gain out with. I mean, how he is now COMPLETELY and UTTERLY makes Nick Fury obsolete. And that just sucks. So you might wanna tone him down a lot more.

Just suggestions. Enjoy

[The Stinger]

Well, if I gave him a solid 3 damage, then that means I get the ranting of how he would be too strong.

He could then break down barriers and break through walls.

Im was thinking maybe of dropping the RCE printed damage to 1, but then he is too weak in base contact. Perhaps 1 damage with RCE, then to the 2 straight damage with perplex.

If V Bullseye can hit the hulk for 1 with a gun and some ninja stars, I guess Frank could tag him for 1 as well.

Toughness down to 2 clicks, starting defense of 16, and after toughness its all willpower.

Dropped the stealth, now that I think about it, Frank's not a real low profile kinda guy.

Added 2 more clicks of EE to the end of the dial.

Dropped Perplex for 3 clix of enhancement, and the last click has outwit. I could see the reasoning behind him boosting another figures ranged attack, and it doesnt work with RCE.

New point total shortly.

50 points

2 arrows, 8 Range

Speed 7, 7, 6 RS, 6 RS, 6, 5
Attack 11, 10, 9 EE, 9, EE, 8, EE, 7EE
Defense: 16 T, 16, T, 15 WP, 14 WP, 12 WP, 10 WP
Damage: 1RCE, 1RCE, 2EN, 2EN, 2EN, 1OW

Any more suggestions?

[Xavier PhD]

2 + RCE? four damage?

i think that is a bit much... cyclops himself only has 4 damage with rce. i think punisher should be more along the lines of nick fury, attack wise at least.

i would give him 2 base attack and thats it... bullseye deserves the 3... well because he can kill with his ear wax... nuff said.

:p

[CaptainCarl]

keep stealth for the first click and make running shot 2nd and 3rd clix cause when he does snipe you dont know its comin just ask spidey =)

and its ok to have runnin shot and rce so the 2nd click can be justified

good overall stinger

this would not be a bad piece to play with especially the 50 pt total =-)

thecaptain

[PantherPriest]

Actually I'd keep stealth, just not on the vet, give the experienced version stealth and the vet running shot, or vice versa. I think this would stay true to punisher and so people will stop whinning about balance. Or you could just give him one klick of stealth. Or perhaps give him steath at the end of the vet, yes in fact that could represent his tactical retreat as you say. But at some point he needs stealth because he may run in gunz a blazing but if the fight gets tough, he will hide behind something only to duck out in that classic lean/kneel guns pointed to either side pose...which would make a good sculpt

I'd only do one or two clix of toughness and defense of 16. Personally I liked the whole damage set up, but I suppose he wouldn't do more damage than say bullseye. Perplex or outwit is a must, I'd say perplex. He needs something to represent his intimidation factor. Punisher has a reputation that really helps him out, most heroes hold back, but frank will kill you with out a second thought. He's not one to be taken lightly; naturally thor or hulk wouldn't really care, but he'd definitely be a big threat to most characters under 90 points. However, I'd like to see punisher in the 40-58 point range so he would easily fit in to most teams.

Either give him 6 range and 3 targets, or 8 range and two. I feel he will be a lot like Nick Fury with ee and a more stable attack. However he will never "completely and utterly make nick fury obsolete" because nick is a leader, frank is not, he could be but he doesn't care. Frank will also never get mastermind, and doesn't need outwit, but I could understand if you gave it to him.

I must admit that I am tired of not having a punisher after three sets. If he isn't in the fourth I'm definitely making my own.

[The Stinger]

Cool!

Thanks for the input guys. It seems like Im getting closer to a good representation of him. For the most part, it looks like the numbers are okay, just a few disagreements on which powers go where.

All in all though, this information will help me to make a balanced R/E/V version of him, as I dont really want to wait on the next expansion to get him. Hes one of my favorites.


Much appreciated!

:cool:

[farmer]

Actually, if you want to represent kelvar and such, why not just have toughness when he has stealth on the dial, then the rest of the dial (until maybe the very last) have energy sheild deflection. Just a suggestion.

[CaptainCarl]

or he can suffer the marvel syndrome

for the kevlar you can make him def 17 with no toughness

or def 16 with toughness dc style

and panther makes a good point i would put stealth in the front but i also like the idea of stealth in his R version while RS on his veteran where he is more confident

perplex is good cause then you can give him 2 base damage and the perplex to get past invulnerablitiy to do 1 damage without and also being good hand to hand while not doin 4 damage at range

all in all your gettin there

thecaptain

i can see him being like 40 R 50 E 60 Vet or something on those lines 42-58 style

[Akakrz]

Yeah I'm liking this more.

On the comparison of Punisher vs Bullseye. Frank isn't on the level as Bullseye, but rather, where he lacks specialization in one skill, hes more of a Jack of all Trades. Where he can have Stealth, Energy Explosion and other powers that don't have him being such a one trick pony that is Bullseye. But I think you have him down pat.

One interesting, but far fetched idea is to give him 2 damage with Psychic Blast. But Pyschic Blast could represent "Armor Piercing bullets" rather in this case. Then you could have perplex on the first couple clicks instead of RCE.......ALso, it would make him play out differently than regular "sniper" characters.

Just a thought

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Akakrz
Yeah I'm liking this more.

On the comparison of Punisher vs Bullseye. Frank isn't on the level as Bullseye, but rather, where he lacks specialization in one skill, hes more of a Jack of all Trades. Where he can have Stealth, Energy Explosion and other powers that don't have him being such a one trick pony that is Bullseye. But I think you have him down pat.

One interesting, but far fetched idea is to give him 2 damage with Psychic Blast. But Pyschic Blast could represent "Armor Piercing bullets" rather in this case. Then you could have perplex on the first couple clicks instead of RCE.......ALso, it would make him play out differently than regular "sniper" characters.

Just a thought

giving psyschic blast to the Punisher ! it would represent him using various weapons which could hurt the opponent he was fighting (a Bazooka/Rocket launcher vs. Inv. figs,a net rocke'-launched vs. Spiderman, etc. ).

and a comment:
Frank is not in thesame league as Bullseye,Cyclops etc. so he doesn't deserve a 11 AV.
a 9 would be good (in conjunction with perplex) where perplex would stand for his willingness to kill.

like someone said before he's a jack of all trades: EE,"Psychic blast".
Punisher isn't a team player so I wouldn't give him enhancement, maybe some CCE with a 0,1 damage value (him running out of bullets) later on in the dial ?

[XocgX]

Hmmmmm....well I am a big fan of both characters, and my opinion is Frank should have (as vet/best) a 10 attack with RCE with 1 damage and stealth, 7 or 8 range, 2 arrows. this is like him sniping. Then RS with a 9 or 10 attack, for a standard 2 damage, with either outwit or perplex. throw in some willpower and EE down near the end and we're good. Maybe even support, considering he does his own wounds....

Now Bullseye has better AIM then frank, so bullseye has an 11, frank a 10, but the damage bullseye does with a fork is the same frank does with a bullet, so the damage values are the same with RCE on both.

Frank often out-thinks his opponents and plans in advance, so he deserves outwit. look at what he did to daredevil in welcome back frank.....

[ChromeWeasel]

Your version of Punisher is really out there. Punisher is just an regular human being with a lot of training. He should be roughly equal to Nick Fury in game terms. Take a look at Nick Fury's dial and adjust it down a little bit. Nick Fury's unique should be more powerful than any Punisher you design.

That means max range of six, two bolts at the most. I can see him having Energy Explosion and not much else. That along with two lightning bolts is already pretty nasty. Toughness is out; Punisher isnt superhuman and doesnt have anything other than kevlar to keep him safe. That's nothing special in game terms.

Perplex and Outwit are not something I'd expect to see on Punisher. How often does the Punisher have to get around a Villian's superpowers? How often does the Punisher make someone else more powerful with gagets or advice? I'd imagine it's pretty rare.

[Dormammu]

Punisher is a highly trained, athletic HUMAN and nothing more. Plus all guns get a range of 6, nothing more (so far), and wanted him to be as offensive and yet balanced. I also believe stealth is overused, so here's my Punisher stats:

Point Cost (Old Spreadsheet) 54
Range: 6
Attacks: 2

Movement: 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5
Running Shot first 2 clix, Willpower remaining 4

Attack: 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5
Psychic Blast on 2, 3, 4, 5 clix for Concussion Grenades

Defense: 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9

Damage: 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1
RCE on 2, 3, 4, 5th clix to represent Grenades

He is very playable, and true to character, able to run off board to attack another day if necessary. Bring him in after others have pinned down opponent's characters.

[Melkoloran]

I'd say that's a fairly accurate representation, though I think I'd give him Toughness of ES/D for his kevlar, like others have suggested.

[Super_Member]

I think Energy Sheild Deflection would be a better representation of the kevlar than toughness. If they missed by two, they hit the kevlar. That way he can be fully damaged by the hulk where kevlar wouldn't help. Those troopers who have toughness in DC have tatical armor over concealed kevlar and a helmet, and I think they should have a riot sheild but they dont. I think it is looking pretty good. It is a good peice and with some effort can be taken out easily by the powerhouses. I also think he should get perplex unless getting perplex means you have to be able to work within a team. Because a lot of time perplex means helping teamates.

[The Stinger]

Great idea with the ES/D on Defense instead of toughess.

This way, should someone like Thing or Hulk bash him with a dumpster, he doesnt survive.


CHROME WEASEL:

In regards to your Nick Fury comment, Nick is more of a leader, a field General of sorts. He doesnt really get out there and do the dirty work, he makes the plans, and his boys carry them out. but in a pinch he can still handle himself.

Frank has no lackeys, and has to do the deeds himself, this is why I have him with more abilities, and Range, than Nick Fury.

All these posts have been really great in helping to make a perfect punisher. Ive only got 2 Sculpts that Ive modded into Frank, so I can only make 2 different representations.

But Ive gotten some really great Ideas from you guys, thanks a lot and keep the suggestions coming!!

[The Stinger]

This is what Ive decided on for the Vet Version, using the Shield Agent pose, and weapons.

59 points, 8 range, 2 bolts

Speed: 7, 7, 6, 6 6, 5

Attack: 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 7

Defense: 16, 16 ,15, 14, 12, 10

Damage: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 1


He's pretty much a jack of all trades and can be very nasty if played right, but if he gets based by a big hitter, its over.

I was really considering the Psychic Blast part for like armor piercing bullets, but it wouldnt look right damaging the Hulk or Thor for 2 with normal bullets. If I could specify that it could penetrate Toughness only, then that would be cool.

This version may not be for you guys, but This is the one I like, and Ive decided on it for my Vet Version. Thanks for your help!!

[sundevil]

I am a Punisher fan from way back so I am goiing to be a little biased.

That said, I think Punisher's click should be really good, almost superhuman. Yes, he is just a superbly trained, prepared, ruthless and intelligent human but he has, on many occasions in his almost 30-year comic career, had to take on (and take down) superhumans. His clix has to be able to play with the big boys somewhat because no one is ever going to play a game with Punisher and a bunch of drug dealers, rapists, murderers and other human villians. This is a game for Super Heroes and Big Pun's click needs to represent the times he got involved in their world.

Toughness is good because the heavies (Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, etc.) can laugh off that -1 damage and still destroy him but thugs, Hydra, etc will have trouble. I favor Perplex slightly more than outwit because it takes a little more skill to play ("What value do I raise/lower?" as opposed to "I'll just turn that defense OFF!") and it would represent him usually finding someway to win, no matter what. EE is a natural, I don't think anyone argues that. And I think 2 damage w/RCE to start is justified because if Big Pun is taking a shot at Hulk or Thor or some other Invulnerable figure, than you can bet he took the time to find some way to make it hurt. He shouldn't do 4 damage from range for more than 2 clicks though because he wouldn't be foolish enough to stick around after angering one of the big boys. Stealth works because Punisher is cautious, taking his time to survey a situation rather than just rushing in and shooting everybody. He rushes in AFTER he's surveyed the scene. :)

I also think Big Pun should be better than Fury and that's saying something since I love the Original Howling Commando. Saint Nick is made to lead a force while Punisher has to rely on himself for everything all the time. Fury is more of a support piece (assistance, not healing) while Punisher should be a one man wrecking crew compared to the mid-level clicks like Spidey villians, low-grade X-men/Avengers and anyone in the 60-70 point range. Not to say he should dominate all the mid-lev's, just hold his own in their reindeer games.

Punisher should only be able to slightly dent and annoy most figures over 100 points and then either run away or get crushed by an enchanted hammer, giant green or orange-rocky fist, repulsor blast, etc. :)

He should be one of the better, mose versatie figures in the mid-level range (50-80 points) of figures along the lines of Batman (though not quite as durable and without the CCE and natural stealth) and Taskmaster. Captain America should be this good but he isn't and Daredevil should be just under this level but he isn't quite there.

Big Pun should be able to handle anyone less than 50 points or 3 to 4 generics single-handedly. I wouldn't be against giving him the Sipder-Man team ability just for the versitility like they gave MOD to Spiral.

Just my slightly-biased vote for a powerful Punisher click...in the VERY NEXT EXPANSION, WIZKIDS!!! :)

Thanks for reading!

[sundevil]

Stinger, I really like that last dial. I would up his movement a bit and give him a click of toughness between the Energy Shield and Willpower but that's is just splitting hairs. Great job!

[Captain Spoon]

IMO, this is what i think he should have:

Range: 6
Arrows: 3

8 7 7 6 6 5
Stealth: 1st & 6th
RS: 4th & 5th


10 10 9 9 8 7
EE: 4th-6th
INC: 1st

16 15 14 13 12 11
ES/D 1st & 2nd
Willpower: 4th-6th

2 2 1 1 1 1
Perplex: 1st-3rd
Outwit: 5th & 6th


Reasons for the Stats

Movement:
-Stealth: Pun deserves this, i don't think anyone could complain
-RS: The same

Attack:
-Inc: The reason i think he should the ability, might illustrate the gas bombs or some trappin' device he might have in his aresenal
-EE: grenades, lots & lots of grenades

Defense:
-ES/D: I don't think he could go Toe-to-Toe with any of the heavy hitter. As most have stated, he's only Human and with all the vest that he might wear, still doesn't give him this advantage, ES/D could probably be a better substitute...
-Willpower: He's always on the move, willpower mostly reflects his unwilling desire to stay down

Attack:
-Perplex: The main reason RCE isn't in his dial. First off, Pun is a great hand to hand fighter, giving him RCE would only reduce his damage value to 1, which IMO isn't worthy of Pun, Perplex gives him the ability to deal 3 damage from Afar (just like RCE) but it won't limit his close combat ability. Perplex also could modify his Range, Like he would modify his weapons, or modify his attack... Perplex IMO, is the ability that he should have, not RCE.
-Outwitt: Although he isn't so much of a strategist, the reason i gave him outwitt is because since he is a loner and always seem to find a way out and a strategy to give him the upper hand... he doesn't rely on a team, which if he would i wouldn't have given it to him....

Range 6:
Arrows 3:
If boomerang can have range of 8 and 3 arrows, then Pun sniping should be able to do the same...

-SPOON!-

[farmer]

Actually, I would put a click of toughness on in front of the energy shield deflection. My thinking of this is what is the point of having a defense against long range attacks if someone cant even see him to attack him in the first place? Just added point costs if you ask me. just give him energy shield on the second two clicks and will power on the last two, and it should work just fine. Hope i could help

[Mongoose]

Man what ammo is he using? He is doing more damage then Bullseye. I think his damage should be a 1 w/ RCE, just like Bullseye. I don't know about him having perplex, 10 range, and 3 arrows either. I'd say an 8 range and 2 arrows. The energy explosion is good. I agree with the AV, as he can fight very well. The toughness should be 2 clicks. I'd say that he should be a 50-60 point character, at the most.

[Super_Member]

I think the perplex is ok because he did fight in a war, but I'm not fond of him being able to perplex others. I know the dilemma that you are facing with the punishers base damage Stinger because he is just as effective in close combat as he is in range if not more effective with all the nads-kicking, chest stabbing, throat slitting, jaw smashing action he gets into. I think he pefers close combat more because he can deal the punishment with his own hands instead of tools. Only reason he probaly uses guns is because he would be dead now if he didn't. Good luck though use whatever makes you happy.

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by Mongoose
Man what ammo is he using? He is doing more damage then Bullseye. I think his damage should be a 1 w/ RCE, just like Bullseye. I don't know about him having perplex, 10 range, and 3 arrows either. I'd say an 8 range and 2 arrows. The energy explosion is good. I agree with the AV, as he can fight very well. The toughness should be 2 clicks. I'd say that he should be a 50-60 point character, at the most.

See final rendition of the dial. 10 range and 3 arrows was dropped long ago, as well as dropping the printed damage on his RCE Clicks.

FARMER: I gave him stealth and ES/D on the same clicks because of the fact that sometimes you cant get to a hindering terrain area in time, (movement of 7 and assuming you didnt assign him his own taxi) or you are being threatened with Base contact in the hindering terrain, so when he moves out and can be seen, he still has some protection.

The biggest problem was the ranged damage versus close combat damage. I have much more respect for the dialwriters at Wizkids for the job that they do, its definately not as easy as it looks. Im not nearly as angry with them on some figures as I was before this particular undertaking. Just imagine having to do the entire set.........

[Beta Ray Bill]

Well as far as I recall, the Punisher was always skilled, since returning from VietNam, and being a former cop at the time of his rise to Anti-Hero.

Maybe the Rookie version could have two pistols, the Exp. a Rocket launcher, and the vet a sniper rifle(.50 CAL).

This way he could demonstrate a wide variety of combat abilities, with close combat, explosive damage, and long range capabilities.

And while Frank is just a normal human, he has kicked Spidey's butt, not so much with strength but with skill and ingenuity, justifying a Perplex...

Just my two cents........

[JoFo]

Originally posted by Dormammu
Punisher is a highly trained, athletic HUMAN and nothing more. Plus all guns get a range of 6, nothing more (so far),

Much respect, but I must point out that Red Skull has an 8 range.

[BudPalmer]

I was completely against perplex until Captain Spoon's explaination.

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by JoFo


Much respect, but I must point out that Red Skull has an 8 range.

Great observation! I had forgotten that Red Skull has a range of 8.

[Captain Spoon]

Originally posted by The Stinger


Great observation! I had forgotten that Red Skull has a range of 8.

True, but he's not stealthed....

-SPOON!-

[Beta Ray Bill]

Originally posted by Super_Member
The obvious no's no's for me is 10 range and 3 arrows. Sure he kills a lot of gansters in a matter of seconds, but what hero can't take a couple gansters at once, MAYBE two arrows on his vet. The majority of guns have a range of six with exceptions so maybe a range of 8 would be alright. He shouldn't be able to pop 3 different super hero's for one damage each from 10 range when one superpowered being would require all his focus. It just wouldn't represent his character very well.

Bullseye has a range of ten. That must be from his gun, he can't throw darts that far.

[Perfectstorm]

Originally posted by Beta Ray Bill


Bullseye has a range of ten. That must be from his gun, he can't throw darts that far.
I wouldn't say that. Bullseye doesn't even use guns. He has them for rare occasions...like if some guy in a red suit shows up. Bullseye can toss anything just about as far as he can see, with just about any velocity he wants. He chucked a sewer cap agaisnt a wall, and it had enough speed to keep it boucing between walls for like 20 seconds.

And he is and is not a very acturate character. He is the ultimate cheep ranged attacker, but he should actually have a higher attack. He has only missed about a dozen times in his life. Yet he only gets a 11 while Doom, who misses frequently, gets a 12, or ultron with a 13.

So i wouldn't compare him to bullseye. it is like apples with guns, and oranges who can toss a paper airplane threw a window that is a half mile away.:D

Persoanlly i would compare Punisher to the ultimate sheild sniper, then into a all out fighter. He switches styles quite frequently, from a sniper, to a fighter, to a close range gunner. I think he should be represented like this.

Have him start like a sniper. 10 (or 8, but sniper rifles=10 in this game. and he has one) range, and about a 10 attack for a click or to. And have him doing 1D with RCE and stealth. The have him convert to a 11 Attack, with less defence, either willpower, or toughness and Running shot. Maybe a strait 3. MAYBE. or a 2 with perplex. then have him convert into more of a close, or close to close combat guy. Some EE, for the grenades, and ES/D on defence. Then he just dies. He Normally fights at his utmost until he goes down.

[Beta Ray Bill]

Fact 1 :Bullseye is just a human, not a mutant or advanced being.

Fact 2: Doom wears advanced armor and Ultron is a droid. There is a computerized targeting system incorporated into them both .

Fact 3: Bullseye uses guns. The movie doesn't show it, but the man is an assassin. He shot Elektra dead.

Fact 4: Ever toss a manhole cover? They weigh like 50 lbs. Bullseye is once again a normal person.

Punisher would wipe the floor with Bullseye.....

[PantherPriest]

Punisher could easily beat bullseye, but it'd be a close fight.

[WFUnDina]

But I digress....
Bullseye is a human with uncanny accuracy. Punisher is a human Vigilante with machine guns..... I'd Say Bullseye Wins, hands down.....
Punishers dial should have
8 range with 4 lightning bolts
speed 6rs, 6rs, 6 rs, 5,4,3stealth
attack 10,10,9, 8ee,7ee, 7bcf
defens 17wp,15wp,14wp,13wp,12,11r
damage 4,3,3,3,2rce,1

I honestly think this is the most accurate display of his abilities, since he doesn't have power. of course with the 4 lightning bolts, he'd be an unique.

[Beta Ray Bill]

But all Bullseye has is accuracy. Punisher has combat skills, he's versitile and can dish it out hand to hand. Bullseye is at a loss without something to toss. Punisher will find away.

[WFUnDina]

how often can you not find something to toss. Just looking around my pc, I could find 30 things to throw, if I were Bullseye.

[The Stinger]

If Bullseye doesnt use guns, why is he holding one in his sculpt?

Just an observation.......

[Perfectstorm]

I know bullseye doesnt use guns in the movie. I have been a bullseye fan for a long time now. I know he HAS guns, but rarly, and doesnt like to use them. He feels it is cheating. He even mentions it in the Gardian Devil Daredevil Books. 5 if i am not mistaken.

And he did the Man hole cover while facing Deadpool. He bounced it between to ally walls and it kept going. Of course DP won this fight by pushing him in the way of it, and it knocked him out cold, but didnt kill him cause of his adamatium bones(note: I said bones not just spine. Even though only his spine was broken, he got all the bones cvered in the stuff)

And he is more powerful then a gun. He can put a toothpick into a brick. He can control the velocity of the item he is throwing. And, no quite sure how, but this man can bounce things off anything else.

And while Doom has armor, how many times has his concussion blasts missed thing, who is nothing but a big target. Ultron has a tracking system, but he misses alot more frequently then bullseye, who only misses daredevil, cause he can see him throw it before he throws it.

He is also just as good a fighter as anyone out there. Rememebr, he is still assassin. He is a fair match for DD up close, just he execels so much more from a range. It also helps that he doesnt mind pain. He actually seems just to brush it off.

It is kinda hard to run out if things. Since Anything is a weapon in his hand, anything will work just fine. He has tossed things ranging from daredevils club, some stars, a bullet, a couple of knives, some pins, a few paperclips, a toothpick or two, his own teeth....I think you get the point. The man used his own teeth as weapons.

I don't think punisher could really stand a chance, if every encounter wasnt in his own book. No matter how many guns you have, when you have a toothpick smashed threw your skull from 500 yards away in the dark.

[Homo Arachne]

Okay, just a quick comment for all the people that are complaining about range and suchlike...

SHIELD Sniper has a range of what, again?

Homo Arachne

[Beta Ray Bill]

So the Punisher pulls out a big magnet. Crisis solved

The Punisher hunts criminals. He would plan before hand and take Bullseye out. He would use claymores and sharp sticks if he had too.

Doom and Ultron are usally flying too. That effects accuracy. Add to that the Thing is not a tree but a fast moving brick wall, and you have a slight difference. Superstrength would mean stronger legs, resulting in faster speed.

Bullseye only misses DD cause he only fights DD. If Spidey fought Bullseye, well lets just say it would be a half size issue.

Assassin yes, warrior no. Punisher is a hunter and a skilled one. Bullseye should be less flamboyent and more stealth inclined. His ego is his downfall. While he would be showboating, Punisher would be catching him in his crosshairs and squeezing the trigger...

[Perfectstorm]

Bullseye has fought more then Daredevil. To tell ya the trut, he has fought Punisher from Time to time.
They are both normal people. Exept one has guns and knives witch he can use to hurt people. The other has guns, knives, and the occasional random object.
It is a very fair fight, but i still give it to Bullseye. You can't break his bones, His costume is made of bullet proof kevlar, and he is insane. He only gloats when fighting DD cause he wants his dignity back cause DD dodged him things.
Even if Punisher, hadbody armor on, Bullseye can throw things threw body armor. So unless castle can dorge better the DD he will get hit.

[The Stinger]

While I agree that both characters are exceptionally skilled at what they do, in a fight between the 2, it all comes down to 1 thing.

The mind of the guy writing the story.

YOu can make countless assumptions based on what has happened in the past in different stories, but basically its up to the guy writing the story.

Just didnt want to see this thread get into the same shape as the whole Gambit VS Nightwing debacle which degenerated into nothing but a flame war for fans of Marvel VS fans of DC.


Personally, I think Frank could take Bullseye, and If I were writing the story, he would. WHile Bullseye can pretty much hit anything he wants, how would he have the concentration to hit Frank while dodging a seemingly endless stream of bullets, and being rattled by concuission blasts from the trademark hand grenades Punisher likes so well? Im thinking his aim would be a little off, giving Frank the edge simply with sheer firepower. Besides that, if Frank did anything to Bullseyes hands, it would be over. In the DD movie, he took a sniper bullet through both hands, and then Bullseye was on his hands and knees begging for DD to show him mercy. It would be much easier for Frank to disable Bullseyes hands than for Bullseye to get all of Franks weapons from him. Tactician that Frank is, he would know that Bullseyes hands are his main function, and he would plan a way to disable him.

Other opinions differ, and its cool. Thats how we have such great stories in the comics for all these years.

[Red Gambit]

Okay, I've heard about 6000 different versions.

My Punisher "Unique". I'd make R/E/V versions but I'm too lazy, so this is sort of a Veteran if there were R/E too.

Point Cost: 68
Range: 8
Attacks: 2

Movement: 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5
Stealth on 2, 3 clix, running shot on 5, 6 clix

Attack: 9, 10, 10, 8, 7, 7
Energy Explosion on Clix 4, 5

Defense: 14, 16, 15, 14, 12, 11
Toughness on 1, 5, willpower on 6

Damage: 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Outwit on 1, RCE on 2, 3, 4, Outwit on 6

Okay, my reasoning: Punisher goes through phases which represent his thinking. Click one, with Outwit and damage 2, reflects all Garth Ennis Punisher variations, including the "Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe"(He killed the ENTIRE Marvel Universe in perhaps the best "What If?"), and "Welcome Back Frank Punisher LS 1-12", and the Punisher who has made Daredevil deafened (Outwitting Super Senses), had Spidey get the pulp beat out of him (Further Outwitting), and run over Wolverine with a steam roller (Outwitting Wolverine! A healthy Punisher still can take Wolverine - but do you think he'd have a chance in Close Combat, or injured/bleeding? Who does?). His stealth reflects his ability to lurk around with that trenchcoat, his toughness his general ability to avoid basic bullets and brawling. If he pushes or if his little scheming doesn't pay, he becomes a Sniper with RCE. I'm sure that he could shoot Hulk in the eye or Thor in the crotch for a little fun. But not enough to take them out by any means. He's still stealthy, but he loses Toughness, making him vulnerable especially to melee, as if someone found the sniper and clobbered him. No perplex! He finds ways around people's powers and resources, he doesn't increase other's abilities, just his own. Outwit is purely against the enemy, and Frank doesn't always use it. Clicks 4 and 5 represent and right in the thick-of-combat Frank, having to resort to grenades. Click 5 has running shot, energy explosion, and toughness, no RCE. A nice combo, very basic powers that make sense. But here he can't do anymore than one damage! He's too pressured. If he pushes or if he is hurt to click 6, this is the Frank that was so hard to kill for so long. Just not tough enough to kill with anything small (Toughness), finding the last minute way to defeat the Russian with his outwit, his pure willpower, and on the move (running shot). This could make for some fun gameplay - Frank's next to a weakened melee fighter(who knows, Sabretooth, for instance) with Toughness. He's really trying to hurt him, but if he gets hit once more, he's toast. He's out of grenades (energy explosion is gone). He could try to run back, break away and shoot! That would make total sense. Or if he had lost a shooting spree, he could hide around a corner and he has just enough speed (3 movement with the halving from RS) to pop around any doorway/corner and fire. This Punisher is still a little pricey to put into just any group!
He's also priced more than Nick Fury, and doesn't have the mastermind, Leadership, or shield abilities. Nick can shoot with 5 Shield Agents around him for an astonishing 7 damage plus Outwit if he wanted too (It is also possible, just barely, for him to have 7 shield agents by him. But I'm ignoring that since you'd need 8 move actions). Imagine Nick Fury and shield taking out an experienced wolverine in one attack. Plus, Fury uses pistols.

Punisher has an automatic, this is represented by 2 ranged attack symbols(like the checkmate agents), and also he has a unique 8 range. He could never out-snipe bullseye. But he needs enough to make serious shots from rooftop edges.

My only other "Fair Power" ideas would be to represent Punisher having the Spidey team ability in his rookie version, and no teams in his next two, if there were R/E/V versions. Or maybe even the Spidey-team in his last Version, but that would justify the 60+ cost (he's got Doombot-like variety). Also, he and Daredevil basically stick around the city fighting the baddies, he'll have to mesh well with someone. Ah, or perhaps recent comics by Garth prove that he'll never be a true team player. Well my laziness has subsided, here are the next two versions....

Rookie - Spider-Man Team

NOTE: Firelord, Iron Man, and others could take him out in 1 attack (and probably would with his defense, if they did that hovering close ranged thing). Thus reflecting on how you've gotta play him right. Also the next two have dropped range, but all 3 versions of Frank use Automatics (two ranged symbols).

Point Cost: 36
Range: 6
Attacks: 2

Movement: 7, 6, 6, 5
Stealth on 1
Running Shot on 3, 4

Attack: 9, 8, 7, 7
Energy Explosion on Clix 2, 3

Defense: 14, 13, 12, 11
Toughness on 3, Willpower on 4

Damage: 1, 1, 1, 2
Outwit on 1, RCE on 2

Experienced

Note - This Punisher is a little weird, no running shot on the later clicks, but the 2 and 3 ones. I prefer to think of this one as the heavy firepower Punisher with tons of RCE, when he drove around in Vans, before he first "died" and became that lame Spirit Punisher thing. I never read the latter. This one costs as much as a veteran Bullseye, but with no range and consistently high attack. I want this to be the "Snipe and then run up and go crazy" Punisher.

Point Cost: 43
Range: 6
Attacks: 2

Movement: 7, 6, 6, 5, 5
Stealth on 1, Running Shot on 2, 3

Attack: 10, 8, 8, 7, 7
Energy Explosion on Clix 3, 4

Defense: 14, 13, 12, 11, 10
Toughness on 1, 4, willpower on 5

Damage: 2, 1, 1, 1, 1
Outwit on 1, RCE on 2, 3, 4, 5





:D :D :D

[Beta Ray Bill]

Very nice....But wasn't the Punishers big skull on his chest meant to be an obvious target? His Kevlar is the thickest there. Wouldn't that negate stealth? In this case, I am saying, cause you mentioned the trenchcoat....

[I Am The Game]

What the issue of the first Marvel Knights series where Frank throws everything he's got at Ulik the Troll, and hardly gets a response? Frank's great at beating up scum, but in a superhero fight, he gets his guns tied in a bow, and handed back to him.

[The Stinger]

Originally posted by I Am The Game
What the issue of the first Marvel Knights series where Frank throws everything he's got at Ulik the Troll, and hardly gets a response? Frank's great at beating up scum, but in a superhero fight, he gets his guns tied in a bow, and handed back to him.

Same thing would probably happen to Bullseye, yet his Vet clix is a solid figure nonetheless.......