someone needs to challenge Jon L to a match...

[Xavier PhD]

the following post is meant in the nicest, most respectable way possible (thanks fogs)...

i believe the best way to get changes in the rules to become a reality faster is just for someone to play Jon L and abuse every single rule there is until he breaks down and decides to rewrite them himself.

this is Jon L's quote on how heroclix should be played:
" Build your team, run up and beat the snot out of each other until there's a clear winner. That's how the comics work. "d

but how is that possible when the rules don't lend to that goal?! here is THE single biggest downfall of heroclix...

INFINITE PASSING, ROOF DWELLING, WALL HUGGING .

for example, marvel outdoor map, my opponent and i are on opposite sides. He then inches towards me by settling in the middle of a roof so that i can't attack him, a very sound strategy. I do likewise. now we are both on opposite roofs, now who attacks first? First off, the roofs are about 10 squares apart... so that cuts out any wasps as a potential taxi. to effectively get to the other roof it will take 2 turns. but on the first turn when i have to stop in the middle of the street, my opponent will swoop down and pretty much kill me.

but what is this you say? why don't you offer some bait to lure out your turtling opponent? that is ridiculous. first of all that bait would have to be at least a 100 point figure for any smart oppoent to go and attack. and the loss of a 100 point figure in a 300 point army is pretty much a certain defeat. how bout i offer up a cheap quicksilver or something? no one of intelligence would fall for such cheap bait.

so what about doing a sling shot to the other side of the roof with 3 taxis? even with a sling shot i would only be able to sling one person up there for one attack. that would injure one person if i hit and then that lone figure of mine would be subject to various outwits, perplex, probablilty controls, shield, enhancement etc etc. in short that would be kamikaze without even sinking one ship.

What about playing indoors? you can't do that then, right? actually, yes you can. if you look at the board hard enough there are very many places where you can hide that makes it impossible for your oppoenet to make a decisive attack and it will leave him open if he tries... just like sitting on a roof.

so in short i don't blame people for infinite passing, because they are just following the rules. to ask them to do different would be suicide. lets put it as Jon L likes to put it, lets put it like "how the comics work." would captain america charge onto a roof with a firelord, magneto and thor all waiting with weapons ready? no he wouldn't... he would wait on his side of the roof until there was some possibility that he could actually attack with a reasonable chance of victory.

So if ever played JON L i would huddle my army especially made for huddling on roofs and just wait for him and then i'd see how much fun he has "getting the snott" beat out of him every time he tries to run up to me on the roof.

maybe then he would change some friggin rules...

what rule would you abuse with him?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Fogs]

LOL.

Ok, first off, I've seen Jon L (Sounds Kryptonian doesn't it? ;) ) reply to threads before. One thing he's definitely mentioned is tone, and perhaps you've come across with a bit of an attitude there my friend. Just a bit.

Happens to me too, oftentimes things read harsher than they were written.

Also, a better location for this thread might be the "Dear Wizkids" forum - providing you'd like it to be noticed by the man.

That being said, I think the idea is humorous, and here's what I'd love to "Abuse" in his presence.

Barrier

:mad: :mad: :mad:

I would love to stock a team with dirt cheap barrier chuckers to point out how undercosted it is. Then, I would throw it "Through walls" every chance I got. Lastly, I would do my utmost best to use the power to frustrate and delay him at every turn.

That IS the purpose of it, granted, but I just think its too cheap to be so dominant when properly played.

[Xavier PhD]

oh haha oops maybe i'll edit it and be a little nicer to poor ol jon... :rolleyes:

[Fogs]

No prob man, just trying to help you out. I just remember him "Kindly Admonishing" a poster for having a tone when posting something aimed at him.

[The Stinger]

Id say my biggest gripe is the Barrier not Requiring LOS, and you can put one up through a wall.

Id probably go with a nasty barrier team too, and barrier up all of his figures from the other side of the wall in an indoor map.

[raging_madboy]

Hey, doc. I think you're forgetting one simple thing. The game is meant to be fun. A slugfest of characters from the funny books. The tactics you describe all are perfectly legal, but are terriblly boring. You sound like the kind of guy that would use 18 firelords, "Because it's legal and I'll win." Both of which are probably true, but lack any spirit of sportsmanship or desire to enjoy the game. Relax a little, play an all hydra team, challenge yourself and your abilities. The game is meant to be simple and enjoyable at its roots. Every game is flawed in someway, if rules exist, then there are ways to abuse them. Heroclix is a great way to pass the time as it is. Sometimes people have to remember it's not the game that needs fixing, its the way you look at it.

[Xavier PhD]

ahhh but i do play for fun... but has it occured to you that fun is different to different people? but just as an example...

the other day i was playing a "fun" team with 2 shield snipers, 1 vet hawkeye, 1 nightcrawler and 1 medic (i made this team up on the fly in about 2 minutes, notice how it doesn't revolve around any taxis, firelord cheese, outwit, perplex or barrier). my opponent had a firelord, blackpanther, u elektra, r sabertooth, a skrull and a medic. so naturally he starts out with everyone except elektra and sabertooth on the roof. and elektra and sabertooth are both stealthed on the ground. my snipers, hawk and nightcrawler are on my side on the ground.

i position them accordingling, advancing them so they are out of range of the ouwit of the BP on the corner of the building. so now what is going to happen you ask? well i could attack him and then he would just swoop down with firelord and pretty much destroy me OR he could attack me and then i could RCE and hypersonic his firelord to death in one turn.

so what ends up happening? my opponent asks me if i'm ever going to attack him... and i say "with a FIRELORD, U ELEKTRA, AND OUTWIT?!! no way!" because it would be suicide... even in a fun game you still want to win. my opponent senses the same thing, he pretty much could kill a sniper or a hawkeye, but after that his team would be up the creek without a paddle. so what is the logical thing to do? PASS FOREVER and wait for the other person to attack first. but since we were just playing for fun he gave in and attacked me and soundly LOST. did he have fun? no because it was cheese. did i have fun? no because it was cheese. but what can we do? to ask us to play a game without using the strategies to full effect is not a valid choice.

in a game like this STRATEGY is 80% of it... if i just wanted to play with my favorite marvel figures i'd buy the big figs and toss them around. In order to use strategy you have to use the rules to their fullest potential, but it drains all the fun out of the game when the rules are flawed and therefore the only winning strategy is a flawed boring strategy.

:eek:

[EVIL CAP]

Through Judicious use of things like Barriar Running shot/Charge long range taxis and especially stealth [also coming soon many more phasing figures] the idea of turtleing and the first guy that moves losing has been pretty much outdated.Sure the horriblly designed Marvel outdoor map is like surviving off dry cardboard but the other maps are usually much more enjoyable.

If all else fails and some guy wants to play 2 FL Vulture and Bullseye kinda teams while sitting on the middle of a roof just play OWAW Superman with Mystique Destiny and a paramedic hit the medics and win on auto-pilot

[Xavier PhD]

Originally posted by EVIL CAP


If all else fails and some guy wants to play 2 FL Vulture and Bullseye kinda teams while sitting on the middle of a roof just play OWAW Superman with Mystique Destiny and a paramedic hit the medics and win on auto-pilot

haha i like how you mix marvel and dc AND put figs in that aren't even available to most of the public yet.

and your barrier and running shot idea has merrits if you were not facing a team that was not built for squatting.

squatting teams have barriers of their own... so you need at least TWO figures with running shot (which is very expensive points wise in itself) and over 3 damage to knock down a barrier and then attack the opponent and THEN put a up a barrier... in a 300 point game that is at least all of your three actions to get off 1 attack. and after the barrier gets knocked down you are not only outnumbered but out of luck.

long range taxis? if a very large game then sure a vision will do, but for the majority small games phasing long range taxis are either non existant (UNIQUE vision or shadow cat... but she isn't long range) or are way too expensive to be religated to merely a taxi position.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by Xavier PhD
the other day i was playing a "fun" team with 2 shield snipers, 1 vet hawkeye, 1 nightcrawler and 1 medic (i made this team up on the fly in about 2 minutes, notice how it doesn't revolve around any taxis, firelord cheese, outwit, perplex or barrier). my opponent had a firelord, blackpanther, u elektra, r sabertooth, a skrull and a medic. so naturally he starts out with everyone except elektra and sabertooth on the roof. and elektra and sabertooth are both stealthed on the ground. my snipers, hawk and nightcrawler are on my side on the ground.

i position them accordingling, advancing them so they are out of range of the ouwit of the BP on the corner of the building. so now what is going to happen you ask? well i could attack him and then he would just swoop down with firelord and pretty much destroy me OR he could attack me and then i could RCE and hypersonic his firelord to death in one turn.

...but what can we do? to ask us to play a game without using the strategies to full effect is not a valid choice.



Heroclix strategy has to do with taxiing !
If you both use taxies you're always in eachothers range, so it comes to who rolls better ?
which fig has more staying power, to survive.

"the FL player naturally starts out with FL on the roof and Elektra and Sabretooth in stealth",
well he could have placed his elektra next to his FL and used the FL as a taxi (to get the first strike in), most of your figs would have a hard time hitting FL as it is so why not take a gamble ?

you could have flanked him with Nightcrawler and beat up his Sabretooth and Elektra on the ground. (he didn't have a taxi for FL) so he had to position.

[LuckyJ]

I've never, ever had a problem playing against one of these teams.

I just place an object on 3 building corners and then use stealth characters and free-move taxis to get to the other side.

If you use cheap characters that are still dangerous (U Elektra, E Sabretooth, soon-to-come EV Psylocke, Taskmaster, etc) with an attack of 10 and above for around 50 points, you shouldn't have much trouble hitting a 17, 18, or 19 defense if you play it right.

If I were playing against Jon L, I think I would base all his characters with my flyers and use RCE in base contact! I hate that rule!

[Gacy's Clown]

Originally posted by raging_madboy
You sound like the kind of guy that would use 18 firelords, "Because it's legal and I'll win."

I think you're right. Check out his team for this online tourney.

http://webpages.charter.net/abenjen/march/xavierphd.htm

LOL

......unless of course this isn't the same doc:D

[drmood]

Originally posted by the itsy bit
Heroclix strategy has to do with taxiing !

And here's the real problem. If I invited Jon to play a game, I would suggest we played with the rule that if a figure is carried, they cannot perform an action that turn. Every figure, and most strategies, that get complained about would be "fixed" with this modification. Imagine if you could realistically outrange Firelord, or if Spider-Man's leap climb meant you had to out maneuver him to get a shot in. No longer would bullseye be such a menace for 43 points. The list goes on....

Shouldn't I be able to field a team with no fliers and be competitive? I think Jon's made his feelings known about this issue, but it bears repeating.

[bigbird]

Man, I'm sick of people complaining about "flaws in the rules".
That's all HCrealms is about these days.

[Xavier PhD]

Originally posted by Gacy's Clown


I think you're right. Check out his team for this online tourney.

http://webpages.charter.net/abenjen/march/xavierphd.htm

LOL

......unless of course this isn't the same doc:D

that team for that tournament has to do with this link...

http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28638&highlight=firelord

[Gacy's Clown]

Ahhh, I see. So where or when did or are you playing the other teams. Just curious?
Thanks for your reasoning. I can accept that.

[GroovyBoy]

Um, yeah, except Jon can't unilaterally rewrite rules on his own. He's the lead designer, not the dictator.

[the itsy bit]

Originally posted by drmood


And here's the real problem. If I invited Jon to play a game, I would suggest we played with the rule that if a figure is carried, they cannot perform an action that turn. Every figure, and most strategies, that get complained about would be "fixed" with this modification. Imagine if you could realistically outrange Firelord, or if Spider-Man's leap climb meant you had to out maneuver him to get a shot in. No longer would bullseye be such a menace for 43 points. The list goes on....

Shouldn't I be able to field a team with no fliers and be competitive? I think Jon's made his feelings known about this issue, but it bears repeating.

well,no !
go to the MK site and ask it there (I play MK for almost 2 years now).
without flyers the figs with the biggest range would rule all ! (in this case the upcoming mandarin), trust me that is NOT an option.

If you think ranged figs are overpowered now, then without carrying someone there will be no stopping them (except for invisibility figs: figs with "constant stealth").

yep, JonL also said he didn't like medics: CT had them and in Xplosion they get in at at extra low 8 points !
generic healers are the real problem, they're too cheap.
generic perplexers (the Rookie Con Artists a.k.a. hookers) will be too.

[LuckyJ]

:o I've decided that I don't like this thread. And with all the maturity I can muster, I'm calling it stupid.

I'm slightly embarassed that I posted on pg. 1. What was I thinking?

No, I don't think the game is perfect, but I don't claim to be a game designer, either.

Good luck changing the status quo, guys! ;)