This is how you fix outwit

[chris_morgan]

Now this is not one of those threads where I am going to cry about how outwit sucks. I actually like outwit. Me and som freinds however have been testing out a new way to play with outwit that still lets the outwit be a cool ability but not a real ####per for the guy who just wants to test out his doomsday.

Most people want outwit to cost a move action but I say let outwit only cancle out all abilities except defensive abilities. This allows your charact that you just spent close to 200pts for still stay alive and makes the came more about servival strategy other then outwit and 5 from firelord.

If wizkids ever wanted to fix it I think this change would help.

So what do you think

[Dexceus]

Outwit needs to be fixed?

[Psylockeslover]

Outwit needs to be fixed?

No, no it doesn't.

[irweasel]

The only change I think would be reasonable is assuming a character was tied up by an opponet he should not be able to outwit anyone but the characters adjacent to him.
The same for perplex.
But to be honest I love outwit the way it is.

[chris_morgan]

Oh I like outwit I have nothing aginst it personally. I just feel that the version I suggested would be better then having them add a move action to it.

[JoFo]

Although, I like Outwit the way it is, I must admit that this is more realistic atleast. You can trick Juggernaught into dropping an object, but you can't trick him into becoming easier to hurt.

[CyberVenom]

You don't add an action token for outwit.

Personally, I think it's perfect the way it is. No changes whatsoever.

[Ghost_Rider]

If Outwit didn't work on defenses, then that would make a lot of other characters unplayable because they can't deal with things like Invulnerability. So that doesn't work.

If it costs an action, it would suck. It would hardly ever be used. So really, that doesn't work either.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with Outwit. It can be annoying, but it definitely doesn't need fixing at all.

Ghost

[Spinebreaker]

irweasel wrote :

>>>The only change I think would be reasonable is assuming a character was tied up by an opponet he should not be able to outwit anyone but the characters adjacent to him.
The same for perplex.<<<

It DOES work like that.

You need Line of sight to use outwit and perplex. characters in btb contact have NO line of sight.

Unless i'm massively wrong...

[Spikor]

you're massively wrong.... :)

[Dexceus]

Originally posted by JoFo
Although, I like Outwit the way it is, I must admit that this is more realistic atleast. You can trick Juggernaught into dropping an object, but you can't trick him into becoming easier to hurt.


The thing is, outwit isn't neccesarly 'tricking' the power away. It is just as valid to say Forge (or Reed Richards for that matter) brought a gun that neutrlizes powers. Or in the case of Juggs, that the Gem managed to get knocked away temporarly.

[irweasel]

It doesn't folow the same rules as ranged combat.
If you can se them you can outwit them. Even if Bane is all up in your face.

[Spinebreaker]

So, you cannot shoot at someone if you're in hand to hand because you lose line of sight, but you can outwit people because you still have line of sight...

Another dumb ruling from the world of Heroclix.

No wonder I've always thought it wasn't as unfair as people seem to think!!!.

[Dexceus]

Being B2B doesn't break LOF, it just means you cannot make a ranged attack.

This is why it specificly mentions that you cannot make the ranged attack (with the two expections) in the rules and it doesn't say that it breaks LOF.

I don't know why you say it is a 'dumb ruling', it is the way it has always been.

And it still isn't unfair.

[Cynon]

Originally posted by Dexceus
Being B2B doesn't break LOF, it just means you cannot make a ranged attack.

This is why it specificly mentions that you cannot make the ranged attack (with the two expections) in the rules and it doesn't say that it breaks LOF.

I don't know why you say it is a 'dumb ruling', it is the way it has always been.

And it still isn't unfair.

'The way it has always been' is not a valid reason to say the ruling is fine.

There's plenty of non-'realistic' rulings in HeroClix. This is just another one. (Note...the quotes are around that word for a reason. It is based on comic books, after all.)

[heroclixguru]

I think you are starting one of those threads where {you are} going to cry about how outwit sucks

[Dexceus]

Originally posted by Cynon


'The way it has always been' is not a valid reason to say the ruling is fine.

There's plenty of non-'realistic' rulings in HeroClix. This is just another one. (Note...the quotes are around that word for a reason. It is based on comic books, after all.)

Oh, there are several things in HC that are not 'realistic'. That doesn't mean it isn't a good ruling for a game. There are three legs that a game sits on Simplicity, Realism, and Fun. One of the three always has to be sacrificed to balance out the others. In my opinion, Realism is the one to sacrifice. I would rather have a simple, fun game to play at the sacrifice to some realism, then a game that is uber realistic at the cost of simplicity and fun.

[T_Darksoul]

Originally posted by Cynon


'The way it has always been' is not a valid reason to say the ruling is fine.

There's plenty of non-'realistic' rulings in HeroClix. This is just another one. (Note...the quotes are around that word for a reason. It is based on comic books, after all.)

Non-'realistic' rulings?

I can't remember the last time I saw a super powered being flying overhead in this reality.

Realistic rulings would dictate NO super powers.

And second It is based on comic books, after all.

It is NOT the comics it IS a game that is enjoyable with the rules that are in place.

[TheYanger]

the gem got knocked away? Call me crazy but at least pre-onslaught wasn't the Crimson Gem INSIDE of juggy?

[Ghost_Rider]

You could always say that somebody poked Juggernaut in the eyes to simulate Outwit. :)

Ghost

[TychesCoin]

I think requiring a move action or making defensive abilities immune to outwit would be going to far. I'm in favor of adding a condition similar to perplex where the effect expires if the figure is healed or damaged. Means you'll only get the benefit of the outwitting invulnerability for one successful attack per turn. I think it gives the bricks a bit of a boost without toning outwit down too much. It also gives support a nice secondary effect.

[chris_morgan]

As stated in my previouse post I don't think outwit sucks or care about who uses it. I just offered a suggestion, to the problem people often complain about and wanted to know what people would think about outwit if it worked that way.

[CaptainCarl]

i think tychescoin has something there

basically outwit is nice but can be dealt but i do like that idea of once being hit or healed the outwit ends

exp juggy get poked in the eye now he knows he got poked and is on a rampage

that may not be the best example =) but i like it

ima try playing outwit that way with some friends see if it makes a difference prolly not cause all you need is that one hit and some characters are crippled

thecaptain

[Cynon]

Originally posted by T_Darksoul


Non-'realistic' rulings?

I can't remember the last time I saw a super powered being flying overhead in this reality.

Realistic rulings would dictate NO super powers.

And second It is based on comic books, after all.

It is NOT the comics it IS a game that is enjoyable with the rules that are in place.

(sigh) That's why I put the note in parenthesis. Because of people like you taking a shot at me after I posted it. Unfortunately, it failed to ward you off. =)

You're right, Realistic Rulings would dictate no super powers. But that's not what I said. When I said 'Realistic' (Note the quotes this time, please), I meant realism in terms of what the game it attempting to represent. In other words, a game simulating comic book battles. Presumably, you would agree that this game does indeed simulate comic book battles. At least, I would hope you agree, otherwise, there's a problem.

I'll give an example of a non-'realistic' ruling.

A soaring character can be shot at by a ground-bound character, but cannot fire back.

I think we would all agree that in terms of the comic book frame of reference, a flying character can indeed shoot someone on the ground. Iron Man and Green Lantern do this sort of thing in practically every issue.

But, in terms of the game, a soaring character isn't allowed to attack someone on the ground. Now, I know why it isn't allowed. It's preserving game balance. But it's what I would call non-'realistic'.

I know there are plenty of others, that's just one example. I'm sure people could just rattle them off if they so chose. In fact, I've seen whole threads devoted to such things.

Hopefully that clears up what I meant. I didn't really want to go into that kind of detail, but there it is.

[MarkStewart]

I think the best thing for outwit would have been keeping it as a power that only starts later in the dial. Having figures start with it has made for some of the problems people are having. I agree that getting your 236 point Superman punked out by a 30 point figure is rough, but that wouldn't happen so much if the characters didn't have it until they took several clicks of damage the way Spidey and Cap have to. Outwit should be a last ditch effort sort of thing and be based on the character's wits. Too many figures have it right now who shouldn't have it. The DC set kinda ruined outwit. Too many people with it and don't even get me started on the anti-superman team ability, which is just too powerful. Outwit should be in the game, but not in the amount it's in.

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by Psylockeslover


No, no it doesn't.

I agree.

[Ice Servant]

Outwit should be like Mastermind, in that you can only use it on lower point cost figures. Black Panther SHOULD NOT be able to take on the juggernaut with an outwit of the invulnerability and then rolling a 6 for damage from his claws. That's stupid. INMHO.

[Batman1983]

Originally posted by TychesCoin
I think requiring a move action or making defensive abilities immune to outwit would be going to far. I'm in favor of adding a condition similar to perplex where the effect expires if the figure is healed or damaged. Means you'll only get the benefit of the outwitting invulnerability for one successful attack per turn. I think it gives the bricks a bit of a boost without toning outwit down too much. It also gives support a nice secondary effect.

The only thing I have to add to the above is that outwit, prob control, & perplex could be equal to the characters range or 4 (whichever is greater). This might keep Scarlet witch in the main game, but mostly it makes R Black Panther less effective & confines Batman a bit. I however like it the way it is. If Flash only could outwit at a 4 range (his range is 0 ) then he'd be a lot less useful on the hit and run. I do however think the rule book wording is off in the sence (like the above) that ia power should not continue to be outwited after damage is taken (or you get healed). I am not complaining I just think if you want to make adendums of your own try these (above).

[Jean_genie]

I hate Outwit. I don't even play Vet Thor - my favourite character - anymore because of it. The second I got him I repainted him all nice and purdy, and he proceeded to get his butt handed to him. Repeatedly. And only ONCE did he die due to something other than Outwit (Spiral with double 6's).

Practically every game I try to play Thor(casually), my opponent notices beforehand, and then slips in a Rookie Panther. And then Thor usually goes down in 1 turn. Sometimes two. Sure I could try to be careful about it, but that only guys you so many turns when your opponent is willing to push everything to deat to kill Thor. Which I would too of course - he's 187 points! Still, he almost always bites it immediately. The only time I can remember where he wasn't killed instantly was when an opponent screwed up an attack roll, leaving Thor on his last click. He got to a medic, but I was pretty much screwed by then anyway.

So that's why I hate Outwit. Because with it, a rookie Panther and 2 Bullseyes will kill just about anything short of OWAW Supes. I agree with the Perplex/Outwit thing ..... Outwit should last until the figure gets hurt/healed. As a side note though, Perplex should last until your next turn too, because it's currently impossible to use it defensively.

[KrustyBrand]

dont change outwit at all. It gives little chartacter like Black panther to actually do some damage against people like doomsday. If you couldn't outwit defense unless you picked a big man every game someone like doomsday would be unstoppable. Where is the fun in that? You could always get your own outwit and outwit there outwit.

[Jean_genie]

Yeah, but then you've got 27 more points to just not get your 187 trashed. And once your BP gets shot once, it's gone. It's not a good trade-off. As it stands, my previous example is true: if you play a Rooke BP and 2 Vet Bullseyes against a Vet Thor, you'll find that the Panther/Bullseyes will win often, and will always give Thor a hellofa lotta trouble. And there's still some 70+ points left for taxis.

I know you people hate hearing "it's not fair", but it isn't. With the exception of Vision, I can even be bothered to field anybody with Invulnerability in a tournament because of the mass amounts of Outwit. And usually I have to field a Panther just to turn off somebody else's Outwit. There are gobs of characters (like Thor, and even moreso with Juggernaut) that just aren't feasible unless you and your opponents agree not to use Outwit.

[scowlingone]

Wah, wah, wah. Outwit's no fair because I can't use my powers anymore. Waaaaaaahhh.

Oh, please. You can:

i. Stay out of Outwit range
ii. Move one of your models in between his model and yours
iii. Hit the Outwitter once; almost nobody has it for more than a click or two.
iv. give him a more tempting target
v. make him unable to maneuver into view of your model

The game is all about maneuver. My god, how is a Thor player allowing two Bullseyes and a Black Panther to even get a shot at him?

What's that? 300-point game? And you're playing V Thor? You deserve to lose. Have a nice day.

[TychesCoin]

I don't have a huge problem with the current rules for outwit. I think its a little odd that ouwit is so much more effective used offensively against inv/toughness/super senses than it is when used defensively against ss,rce,bcf etc. My suggestion on a different way to play it was mostly intended to balance it in offensive and defensive usefulness.

[trutildeth]

Originally posted by Spinebreaker
So, you cannot shoot at someone if you're in hand to hand because you lose line of sight, but you can outwit people because you still have line of sight...

Another dumb ruling from the world of Heroclix.


The reason you can't make a ranged attack while b2b with an opposing character has nothing to do with LOF. The opposing character is preventing you from aiming because you are locked in combat. LOF remains intact.

ie: Bullseye is in b2b combat with Daredevil. Bullseye attempts to raise his pistol and fire at Black Cat who is four squares away. He can see her, but can't shoot her because (theoretically) Daredevil knocks his hand down so he can't get off a shot.

I believe that Outwit works just fine in its present incarnation. Like any other power, you just have to take the necessary steps to counteract it. IMO, an essential part of any team is a character whose primary job is to be a "support harrasser". U-Electra, Robin or V-Vampire Lackeys work great for this. Target Outwitters first, Perplexers and PC'ers second and Medics third. Very useful.

Rookie Black Panther is useless after his third click and he's easy to hit when b2b.

[sboy25]

Wow personally I am not outwits biggest fan but I am not hating on people who use it. I will not put it on my team I think it is broken so I stand by my princaples. I do see it relavance though Batman is nothing but outwit in the comicsthat is what he does. Now black panther is not I used to read Black panther I love the charecter but he is no outwitter, he is all fist.

Now I have an idea for outwit but all the people who rely on it to win every game definitly hate it. Say you have Bats up againts Doomsday. Bats is smart enough to 'trick DD into doing something to hurt himself or fall into a trap. but that should only apply to batman who was smart enough to do that. Not your legions of firelords sitting in the back waiting to due 5 clixs a piece. I feel it should only be valid to the chareter who cast it. I mean what you are not happy with the 3 clixs bats is going to give him anyway?

And yes there are the exampels like Forge building some kind of weapon turning off some ones powers or lex having a piece of Kryptonite that would let everybody else partake in the fun but in my opion outwit as it is, is weak especially when people build thier whole game around it. Cause the majorioty of those players that do build thier team around it crumble when they have to play a game without outwit they just do not have any other game in them. it is such a crutch.

[EVIL CAP]

Originally posted by sboy25
And yes there are the exampels like Forge building some kind of weapon turning off some ones powers or lex having a piece of Kryptonite that would let everybody else partake in the fun but in my opion outwit as it is, is weak especially when people build thier whole game around it. Cause the majorioty of those players that do build thier team around it crumble when they have to play a game without outwit they just do not have any other game in them. it is such a crutch.

Ok now i know people that use overly simple FL/BP crutch kinda things but why in Hell should i be consudered a player that will "Just Crumble" because i dont have my Vet Nightwing out there on the field outwitting everything?I think a good number of people are capable of strategy beyond Outwitting Invulnerability/Toughness/Imperviousness and just because they use it effective doesnt mean they have no skill.This sounds more like crying to me

Jean also wasent exactly complaing and didnt deserve to be insulted.She just stated a situation where she couldnt use a favorite figure where he was overmatched by more numbers crunched figures.Now amount of normal manuvering would really allow a good trade-off in her example since everything there matches Thors range.Cant hit a stealthed BP and shooting Bullseye just lead to getting shot by the other one and trading off damage with a much lower cost figure.The only solutions would involve using other figures in a RS taxi which is over 200 points easy

This however isnt really a fault with outwit its mostly a problem with a few numbers crunched figures.Some of them like BP and Bullseye seem like they were designed by Red Mage from 8-Bit theater and have the minimum point cost for maximum effectivness.Once again not a problem with outwit and nothing that cant be beaten but the figures are obviously uber-built.Technically even FL isnt as well put together as they are because of the many useless powers he has while Bullseye and rk BP probably couldnt be improved in any way

[joferma0]

Actually I think Outwit allows a lot more strategies as it is than with the changes. It allow to face inv characters with not so costly figures.

I like it.

[Spinebreaker]

trutildeth wrote :
>>>I believe that Outwit works just fine in its present incarnation. Like any other power, you just have to take the necessary steps to counteract it.<<<

Don't worry, I don't object to Outwit, It DOES work fine. The logic's a little screwy but many things are. I don't personally believe there's a character or figure in the game that is unfair.

>>>The reason you can't make a ranged attack while b2b with an opposing character has nothing to do with LOF. The opposing character is preventing you from aiming because you are locked in combat. LOF remains intact.
ie: Bullseye is in b2b combat with Daredevil. Bullseye attempts to raise his pistol and fire at Black Cat who is four squares away. He can see her, but can't shoot her because (theoretically) Daredevil knocks his hand down so he can't get off a shot.<<<

Or...

Spidey cannot shoot his webs at boomerang 4 squares away because Vulture's fluttering in his face, however, HE CAN shoot a wad of webbing 10 squares away behind him, jamming Bullseye's gun, therefore outwitting RCE.

It's a little nonsensical, like some of the LOF rulings. But I'd be the last to argue that it's unfair.

[Spinebreaker]

PS...

I AM slightly worried by the fact that there seem to be specific pieces you cannot do without...

A team MUST have a flier (I've seen teams win without, but it is hard)
A team MUST have an outwitter, even if it's just to outwit your opponent's outwit.
A team MUST have either Leadership, or people who move for free, otherwise you'll be outmanouvred.

And with the advent of PerpleXplosion you'll find it tricky to field a team without Perplex.

Leaving me with 11 points to 'choose' the rest of my team.

Not complaining, not whining, merely an observation.

[Jean_genie]

First off, I'd like to thank ScowlingGone, who overlooked my first post about how I can't use Thor in a casual game. I'm sure we've all fielded some pretty carppy teams in casual games, but it's really bad when you can't even field someone in a casual game because he's such a target. To give you an example: SENTINAL lasts longer in my games than Thor. The only time Thor doesn't die is if he hides. Then again, I can only do that in a multiplayer game. Oh yeah ..... and unless I'm playing Nightcrawler or taxi/Bullseye/Firelord, I would be unable to do several of your 'fixes' for Outwit. And I'd have you know I haven't had to resort to that once, and I've still won my share of tournaments.

Whenever I go into a tournament setting (and usually outside of it too), I don't use Invulnerability. It's too easy to get killed. Usually in a tournament there's a BP to Outwit it, and at least one guy that can hit you. And after you take 3, there's a good chance that the rest of his team can hit you too, except for the medics. It just doesn't make sense that 'Outwit' very often reads "Spend all of your actions to kill this figure, or knock it to its last click." The only times it's ever worth using Invulnerability to me is when I look around before the tourney and don't see and BP's. And yes, I am complaining. I don't expect that anyone cares though, so I'll just stick to my current strategies.

As a side note though .... what's with SHIELD sucking horribly in Xplosion?! The SWAT guy with the gun looks useable (but certainly not that great), but what's with the guy with Incapacitate and no range?

[Spidersense]

I used to hate Outwit too and I do like the idea of it being later in the dial, but characters like Batman should have it upfront.

I say I used to hate Outwit because now I have learned alot more about positioning. I still make some mistakes, but really look at the board when you play, look at where the Outwit is, and place your taxi in the way of your big hitter or put a 9 point Thug in the way. My teams almost always have some mobile terrain (i.e. Thug) in order to disrupt line of fire or ranged attacks. Do not underestimate the impact this can have on your tactics. Dealing with Stealthed Outwit on a roof is a little harder, but if they have Stealth, they dont have Leap/Climb unless they are Batman/Nightwing. And if they are using Batman/Nightwing as a stealthed Outwit, you can probably move to stay out of their ranged attacks.

Take the time to think out positioning, it makes your offense alot better.

[Bakool11]

I cant believe how so many people here hate outwit? I think it adds a lot of stratagy to a game as long as you are playing w/ somebody that knows stratagy. BP only has one click of outwit so that makes an easy target. You can easily protect your figures, how does one get thor destroyed after one turn? Are you kidding? hide him behind somebody, use barrier, use your own stealth figures to protect you to destroy line of sight. Use energy Explosion on people that are next to BP...all it takes is one click for BP to become useless. It isnt a broken piece that is for sure. All you have to do is set them up. I love stealth, that is how I protect my players BP cant outwit what he cant see.

[Jean_genie]

Originally posted by Bakool11
I cant believe how so many people here hate outwit? I think it adds a lot of stratagy to a game as long as you are playing w/ somebody that knows stratagy. BP only has one click of outwit so that makes an easy target. You can easily protect your figures, how does one get thor destroyed after one turn? Are you kidding? hide him behind somebody, use barrier, use your own stealth figures to protect you to destroy line of sight. Use energy Explosion on people that are next to BP...all it takes is one click for BP to become useless. It isnt a broken piece that is for sure. All you have to do is set them up. I love stealth, that is how I protect my players BP cant outwit what he cant see.
Meanwhile, a BP in hindering on a rooftop prevents any of this from working. Assuming my opponent wasn't dense enough to put smebody next to BP. And due the the rules about taxi'ing and terrain(can't drop someone on a different elevation), I often have difficulty getting someone there.

I don't expect that my whining will change the rules. What I do expect is that people will stop trying to show what great strategists they are and just be realistic. Regardless of how intelligent anyone is or how big their ego is, I'd be surprised if half the people reading this board haven't had a similar experience to my own. You taxi over your bruiser for a shot, and then suddenly BP comes over ... "hey, where the hell did he come from? Can you taxi him twice? Hey, how come my guy died in one turn?" It's even worse in a multiplayer game, when a little 27 point stealthed figure allows EVERYONE to take a shot at your figure, pretty much ensuring that you'll never see him again.

[trutildeth]

Here's one of the best ways to get Black Panther stealthing on a rooftop.

R- Vulture + E-Quicksilver= 39 total points. A total movement between them of 20 spaces should get you onto and adjacent to any rooftop character you want. Next turn, push to flurry BP and it's "lights-out". Send Q.S. to the medic for a quick heal and it's off to harrass your opponents' PC'ers and perplexers or to kill one of those pesky medics.

[MikeHintze]

Originally posted by Ice Servant
Outwit should be like Mastermind, in that you can only use it on lower point cost figures. Black Panther SHOULD NOT be able to take on the juggernaut with an outwit of the invulnerability and then rolling a 6 for damage from his claws. That's stupid. INMHO.

Well, I could see Black Panther finding some way to neutralize Juggy's powers, if only temporarily. He did hand Mephisto his ### in his own series using intelligence and foresight. I think BP should have Willpower as well, as I see him very much as a Batman with political clout.

If anyone should have outwit, it should be BP. Now, the Kingpin using outwit on Juggy...that's a stretch.

Just my 2 cents (which being that I'm Canadian, comes out to a half a cent US!)

[Nevest]

I've made this suggestion in several places before but I figure I might as well throw it in here as well.

My proposed fix to Outwit is to change the range to use the same range rules as Mind Control. Either 4 or the range of the figure, whichever is greater. I suppose now that they have created 12 range figures that maybe a ceiling of 10 range should be amended to this suggestion. It just doesn't make sense that a character like V Black Panter with a range of 4 can affect a figure that is 10 squares away. He obviously can't reach them to attack them so how is he cancelling a super power?

I know that changes like this will probably never be made though and I can deal with the game the way it is right now, so it's not a big deal to me.

[Thorgrin]

Some counterpoints to your points.

1. That's assuming the outwitter just stays stationary. Per your own post, it's about maneuvering. So I have a rookie vulture and rookie black panther OR black panther can move on his own AND not take an action to boot. You can't range combat him and there are very few figures that can move up to 10 and drop a character off. Other than that it's TK, but as a good player, you can outwit TK before they can do anything about it, thus leaving you only a handful of figures that can move 10 and drop someone off next to BP.

2. Again, maneuvering. Vulture can move 8, thus enough movement to position to get into LOS

3. Easier said than done. You can outwit, then throw up a barrier. Look to point #1 about not having a lot of people that can cover the 10 range and drop a person off...

4. A more tempting target... Do you play tournaments often? If so, you do realize it's based on POINTS, not "tempting targets", right?

5. How do you make him unable to maneuver? IF you have 2 figures side by side, you'd have to have two people with barriers, or (yet again), try to get someone b2b and either incapacitate or knock him out.

I'm also not a strong advocate of Outwit and I wouldn't want to impose giving the figure a token, however there could be two solutions to this.

1. Give outwit a range = to range on figure, minimum of 4.

2. Have the outwitter make a pseudo "attack" roll vs. the defense and if the figure makes it, then they can outwit anything they want on that figure (would work on adjacent stealthed figures as well). If not, the power did not work that round. Regardless, no token would be assigned to the figure.

I think it does cheapen the game up a bit as far as a tournament setting goes. I NEVER see Juggernaut, Hulk, Thor (rarely), Vet Ultron (rarely) and lots of other higher point figures used in a tournament unless it's 500+. It's not because they cost a lot, it's that there is no reason to play them as their main "power" doesn't mean anything.

The main figures I generally see are: Firelords (duh), RCE people in general, black panther, scarlet witch/black cat, nightwing, batman, BCF (logan/wolverine/sabretooth/etc) and that's about it. On occassion a moondragon or something out of the ordinary will show up, but in general, you don't see a lot of other guys in tournaments because it's not worth giving your opponent the almost free points just because they don't either have stealth or they can't even be picked up unless you use a TK which, again, you can outwit thus forcing someone to run up and most can't cover that 10 range.

Ah well... *shrug*

Originally posted by scowlingone
Wah, wah, wah. Outwit's no fair because I can't use my powers anymore. Waaaaaaahhh.

Oh, please. You can:

i. Stay out of Outwit range
ii. Move one of your models in between his model and yours
iii. Hit the Outwitter once; almost nobody has it for more than a click or two.
iv. give him a more tempting target
v. make him unable to maneuver into view of your model

The game is all about maneuver. My god, how is a Thor player allowing two Bullseyes and a Black Panther to even get a shot at him?

What's that? 300-point game? And you're playing V Thor? You deserve to lose. Have a nice day.

[TychesCoin]

My problem with limiting outwit to the character's range or require an attack roll or requiring an action is that I think the effects are too general. If I'm playing a team with RCE, Inc, PC, MC or pretty much anything else except inv,imp or toughness, the other team's outwit is never going to be a game breaker. Yes it might be one of the key points in alot of game play decisions but it only ever directly effects one action (with the exception of probability control where I'd lose out on two rolls). Sure it wil be annoying and alter the way I play, but honestly losing RCE for a turn isn't a huge issue and most characters have couple of useful features. With the exception of BCF and some mind control scenarios, its gonna prevent me from doing up to 3 damage. I don't think there's any problem with outwit in these circumstances, its useful but not too powerful.

However if I'm playing a team with alot of inv (and given the point costs its probably all on one character) suddenly outwit has the potential to break the game wide open. Depending on the characters involved, the outwit can change the results of 3 or 4 actions or more. Just depends on how many clicks of inv I have and how many attackers you can position before you strike. Its pretty much the same as adding a total of 6-8 points of damage to your attacks.

[Thorgrin]

Yep. That could work. Here's the counter to that.

EXP Black Panther is on the roof. You tie him him up with QS. Since you can not move AND attack w/Quicksilver, I'll attack back w/black panther doing b/c/f on ya. If you're still standing and have flurry, I'll just outwit that just in case OR I'll have my vulture attempt to taxi away.

*shrug*

Originally posted by trutildeth
Here's one of the best ways to get Black Panther stealthing on a rooftop.

R- Vulture + E-Quicksilver= 39 total points. A total movement between them of 20 spaces should get you onto and adjacent to any rooftop character you want. Next turn, push to flurry BP and it's "lights-out". Send Q.S. to the medic for a quick heal and it's off to harrass your opponents' PC'ers and perplexers or to kill one of those pesky medics.

[shin-goji]

Sounds like what the problem is that your oppenent knows what you are bringing to the table beforehand and slips something in to counter you, which is a little cheap. Hide your forces till you bring them into view.

[Thorgrin]

I agree with you on your points. I don't think outwit is that overpowering in the most sense. In the DC universe, it's very out of control with the amount of figs that do have it at the point cost they have it at. The usual DC tourney game consists of a nightwing, maybe batman, flash or the perplex team. Rarely do I see Swamp Thing, Solomon Grundy, DOOMSDAY, SUPERMAN (which is one of DCs main comic heroes), etc. It's even more prevalent there.

Range restriction would probably be the best, should probably be restricted for PC as well, but I digress.

Ah well, we all know that the rules won't change this drastically so why worry. Thank goodness for casual games with no dupes. :)

Originally posted by TychesCoin
My problem with limiting outwit to the character's range or require an attack roll or requiring an action is that I think the effects are too general. If I'm playing a team with RCE, Inc, PC, MC or pretty much anything else except inv,imp or toughness, the other team's outwit is never going to be a game breaker. Yes it might be one of the key points in alot of game play decisions but it only ever directly effects one action (with the exception of probability control where I'd lose out on two rolls). Sure it wil be annoying and alter the way I play, but honestly losing RCE for a turn isn't a huge issue and most characters have couple of useful features. With the exception of BCF and some mind control scenarios, its gonna prevent me from doing up to 3 damage. I don't think there's any problem with outwit in these circumstances, its useful but not too powerful.

However if I'm playing a team with alot of inv (and given the point costs its probably all on one character) suddenly outwit has the potential to break the game wide open. Depending on the characters involved, the outwit can change the results of 3 or 4 actions or more. Just depends on how many clicks of inv I have and how many attackers you can position before you strike. Its pretty much the same as adding a total of 6-8 points of damage to your attacks.

[Thorgrin]

Not necessarily. Most tournaments (unless it's sealed), you have to make your team and keep the team throughout the tournament, so an opponent can't switch up their black panther for, say, unique elektra (if there were enough point values or they had the exp version in).

The only time I really see abuse of outwit is in tournaments. I'll concede that. We try to limit it a little in our casual games and it makes it fun again to bring out some heavy bruisers that can do some good damage.

Originally posted by shin-goji
Sounds like what the problem is that your oppenent knows what you are bringing to the table beforehand and slips something in to counter you, which is a little cheap. Hide your forces till you bring them into view.

[sboy25]

Here is why I think it is so broken yesterday I spent 45min - an hour an half in a 6 player game 500 pts. running from like 6 or 7 figures with outwit running away with a vet kang and a vet blasttar! Now at 500 points I had more than enough room for some outwit on my team, but I chosse not to use it cause well it sucks! Why should a player be forced to run away for 30 minutes in a tourney until he can find a way or get lucky enough to kill the fig or figuers with outwit! Oh and do not get me started on stealth/outwit ok I admit that is the most deadly combo in the game, it is one helluva stratagy but it is not your stratagy. It is some deranged dudes at wizkids.
I do not know about you but I have 30 min to win a match at the tournies I go to why should I spend 25 of it scoring no points and running from outwit so that my invurn does not get turned "off".
I mean I could probaly runn the board the whole game but then no one would get points and thta would be pointless. And I know players that win on outwit and firelords alone and in my eyes that is as broken as you get. Firelord is going to give my fig. with invur. 3 clix anyway you take it away it away he doing 5 plus the vet bullseye doing three that is 7 there are 12 clix spaces on every dail for the most part half are K.O. slots. So you are telling me you are running a vet Firelord and you ca not take out another power fig without outwit? If that is the case outwit does not suck it is everyone who overuses it! You know what it is not even broken it is just overused 80% of the time whole games are decided by this one power. So you can use it all you wanti won't unless it is a sealed booster game and i have no choice!

[chris_morgan]

I like the Idea of using outwit with range restrictions. I'm going to test it tonight with some freinds. I know this won't ever cause the rules to change but its allways fun to try out some new house rules.

Thanks for all the great ideas guys.

[Bakool11]

500 pt team and you are running away from an outwitter? If you are so afraid of outwit what abt having two barrier guys on your team? He cant outwit if he cant see you. It seems to me that if you see an outwitter, you just have to change your stratagy. You cant go all out to attack the opposition. You have to play, defensive and I know that sucks but it's either that or you lose your thor/whoever quick. You have to draw them in. O well, no big deal! I mean, Black Panther is no Black Manta, now that is a great figure. Big beety red eyes...deadly incapacitate....he is the man!

Black Manta for president!

[chris_morgan]

I could see black manta as president.

But who would be his running partner and what would be his campaign slogan.

[Jean_genie]

"Black Manta: sure he sucks, but at least he doesn't talk to fish."

I still think killing Outwit after a figure takes damage is a better fix. I'll have to try it in my next couple games. The range thing is a good fix in terms of power levels, but I think it'd change the game too much. It just doesn't make sense that Thior could sit there chucking his hammer at Batman, and Batman doesn't think tio do anything about it because he's 8 squares away instad of 6.But anyway. We'll see.

[Thorgrin]

That normally wouldn't occur anyway as Batman generally has stealth (depending on the version), so Thor would have to come up on him.

Otherwise you leap/climb into position and then have someone do some damage.

I think with the range implemented, it would balance it out a little bit. It would force some figures to get in close and be possibly knocked off of outwit or at least block their line of sight easier. A 10 range, there's enough maneuverability with taxis to get around barriers or other LOS issues. With a range of 4, 6 or whatever, it would be a little harder.

Good luck and let me know how the range thing works. I think that's going to be our next house rule to go along with flyers can't carry flyers and Stealth doesn't block LOS.

Originally posted by Jean_genie
"Black Manta: sure he sucks, but at least he doesn't talk to fish."

I still think killing Outwit after a figure takes damage is a better fix. I'll have to try it in my next couple games. The range thing is a good fix in terms of power levels, but I think it'd change the game too much. It just doesn't make sense that Thior could sit there chucking his hammer at Batman, and Batman doesn't think tio do anything about it because he's 8 squares away instad of 6.But anyway. We'll see.

[Grinner]

There have been several 'fixes' we've tossed around for Outwit.

First off, requiring a token, a move action or an attack roll all seemed too limiting. A token or move action make it so an outwitter can't use outwit for themselves (suddenly Outwit doesn't represent Spidey's come-from-behind save-the-day action). An attack roll penalizes all of the Outwit-at-the-end-of-the-dial characters.

The one we used for a while was a little complicated, which is probably part of the reason we dropped it. An outwitter could either make use Outwit like Leadership (works on a 4, 5 or 6, doesn't take an action) or have it be guaranteed to work for an action.

Another one that has been tossed around is that Outwit degrades defensive powers rather than eliminating them. Invulnerability gets Outwitted to Toughness. There was some debate on whether Impervious would go to Invulnerability or Toughness, though.

I do kind of like the Perplex-like idea. It prevents the 'dogpile' aspect that Outwit currently has, but doesn't necessarily make your Outwit 'wasted' if someone misses that first shot.

Really, though, I think that most people agree that the main crux of the whole Outwit debate falls on its use against defensive powers.

[sboy25]

In my 500 point game with 6 people 5 of them running outwit on 2 maps you are #### right I am running from outwit you would be too wit 45-50 figs on the board. some one is going to outwit your defense and youare going to die after about 3 or 4 figures have thier way with youcome on think about the situation like i said I do not runn outwit and that is the only real defence against it unless I was to fun an all staelth team, which is almost as garbage as having more than one outwitter on your team.

[the itsy bit]

1) like MC: If you outwit something from a fig that's 100+ points you get 1 damage !

2) works like perplex: after damage is done it no longer works.
outwit working untill the other players end of turn is WAY to strong !

opponents turn: I "switch off" your Charge, my turn I nullify your Inv.

3) the range minimizing could work, although it would underpower these figs dramatically.