2011 Rulebook - Of Wild Cards and Themed Teams

[WizKidsNECA]

We’re previewing the new 2011 Core Rulebook for HeroClix this week, spotlighting some of the changes and new rules. Last time, we talked about a new type of power action, canceling, and free actions. In particular we pointed out the new rule that you cannot give a character a free action for the same effect twice in one turn. As with many rules, there are some rare exceptions. We start today with the exception that you are most likely to see in your games: Wild Cards!
[Read More on WizKidsGames.com (http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2011/03/31/2011-rulebook-of-wild-cards-and-themed-teams/)]

[ThePancakeMan]

Thank You!!! Syndicate/defenders Are Back!!

[herojoe]

I think it's a little ridiculous that you need 6 generic characters for a 400 point generic theme team.

Not happy with wild card changes either.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

That's a big nerf to Wildcards. It would be nice if there were some counter-balance to the nerf. I don't suppose it matters much in the big picture. It does certainly simplify things a great deal, and that's OK.

I don't care for the "must have keyword" rule-- unnecessarily complicated. They could have just said "not for bystanders" to get most of the same effect, more simply.

I also don't like the simplifying of the number of rerolls. I like little swarms, and would often have 3 PCs in 300 points, not two.

[ThePancakeMan]

I just wanted to see characters without keywords not affect theme... looking at you Omega Red.

[MarshallXIII]

Thats the way we've always played wild cards, and hence have never had to argue wild card BS. Its about time.

[benjamin450]

I don't like the new theam team set up I can't remember the last time I used 6 characters on A 400 point team.

[snatreaper]

Love the changes to the Wildcard Rules, if for no other reason, by making them a free action, the player has to think more about what he's doing and not keep trying to change stuff on the fly.

Not thrilled with the overall changes to Theme Team. I was hoping that any changes for the "Named Keyword" teams would have been done in such a way that teams that had difficulty being built under the current restraints would get a little easier (translation, more encouragement to play actual teams) but it looks like WizKids hasn't quite gotten on board with that yet.

Also sad to see that the new rules nerf CSA teams, since it looks like they won't be able to use the Theme Probs anymore, or am I reading something wrong.

[Trypswitch]

I am very happy with the bulk of the changes, especially in regards to wildcards. I think it will cut down a bit on the abuse and it makes it much more streamlined. Also, it means you have to be on the ball when it comes to giving them that free acrion at the end of your turn. No more lazy "Well I will just be Batman TA if they try ranged or Mystics if them come in close". Now you actually have to think ahead and figure out what your opponent is most likely to do.

The 6 figure generic keyword requirement for a 400/500 pt theme team is kind of lame. Especially since I had a nice 5 Mindless Ones (Mystical Keyword) team all lined up for an upcoming 500pt event. But, overall, that can help cut down on those evil 400pt Martial Artist teams out there. So I guess it is mostly winning.

[snatreaper]

The 6 figure generic keyword requirement for a 400/500 pt theme team is kind of lame. Especially since I had a nice 5 Mindless Ones (Mystical Keyword) team all lined up for an upcoming 500pt event.

Luckily they also have the Black Hole Sons "Named Keyword" so they're still legal.

[rowdyoctopus]

Love the changes to the Wildcard Rules, if for no other reason, by making them a free action, the player has to think more about what he's doing and not keep trying to change stuff on the fly.

Not thrilled with the overall changes to Theme Team. I was hoping that any changes for the "Named Keyword" teams would have been done in such a way that teams that had difficulty being built under the current restraints would get a little easier (translation, more encouragement to play actual teams) but it looks like WizKids hasn't quite gotten on board with that yet.

Also sad to see that the new rules nerf CSA teams, since it looks like they won't be able to use the Theme Probs anymore, or am I reading something wrong.
According to the rules, unless there is a rewording of the CSA team ability, figures with the CSA team ability cannot use theme team probability control.

[supremepontiff]

good to see that the jason blood/scarlet witch connection is getting nerfed down a bit.... just in time to see the rise of the charlie xavier/cuckoo connection. lol


-RmL

[minideadpool]

I like the change to the TTPC. I think the swarms needed a mild nerf to all the PC that I saw going on. Also never really realized how open ended the Wild card teams were.

[RSIxidor]

I'm pleased at streamlining and simplification. I don't like the If-PC-then-no-TTPC clause, but in the long run it keeps some very nasty teams off the board. And those teams will eventually get to use the PC if they have character's that have clicks without PC (I think).

[spideyfriend]

Sounds like some good changes. Wildcard team changes
are great! Gets rid of some "cheese" junk wildcard tricks.
Theme team changes seem fine, wish they would get rid
of generic keywords altogether. (Nightcrawler, Bronze Tiger,
& Karate Kid may all be martial artist, but they do NOT
belong on the same team!)
Bring out the rulebook & PAC already! This one article a
day thing is driving me nuts!!

P.S. CSA has enough PC as it is, don't worry about not getting theme!

[rowdyoctopus]

I'm pleased at streamlining and simplification. I don't like the If-PC-then-no-TTPC clause, but in the long run it keeps some very nasty teams off the board. And those teams will eventually get to use the PC if they have character's that have clicks without PC (I think).

Correct. If a figure doesn't have probability control showing, but they have it somewhere else on their dial, they still qualify for using theme team probability control at that moment.

[macewyndu]

That's a big nerf to Wildcards. It would be nice if there were some counter-balance to the nerf. I don't suppose it matters much in the big picture. It does certainly simplify things a great deal, and that's OK.


I'm just curious, how does Wildcards get nerf? I read the article twice. Can you help me see your point of view?

[DrZero]

Also sad to see that the new rules nerf CSA teams, since it looks like they won't be able to use the Theme Probs anymore, or am I reading something wrong.

Looks like it's a choice between either using the TA (which would allow you to drop a token on a bystander), or using the theme team PC, but you couldn't do both with the same character.

[magerunner]

I'm just curious, how does Wildcards get nerf? I read the article twice. Can you help me see your point of view?

As of now, Wild cards can change the copied team as often as they need.

[macewyndu]

Me personally, I think the new changes to TTPC are welcome. Like the article says, It should be use for occasionally re-rolls, not 5 or 6 re-rolls. It make your opponent strategically build and play more effectively. But i guess we will see how this affect the players. I hope it works out for the better.

[rowdyoctopus]

I'm just curious, how does Wildcards get nerf? I read the article twice. Can you help me see your point of view?

Under current rules, you can change the TA you are wildcarding on your opponents turn for each action. Now, you have to choose a TA on your turn and it cannot change during your opponents turn.

Looks like it's a choice between either using the TA (which would allow you to drop a token on a bystander), or using the theme team PC, but you couldn't do both with the same character.

Nope. The new rules say that if a figure can already use probability control, they cannot use theme team probability control. In other words, a figure can only have 1 source of probability control. Themselves or the theme team.

[macewyndu]

As of now, Wild cards can change the copied team as often as they need.

Okay thanks, I understand now. I guess i should utilize playing wild cards more.

[spiderknyt]

does theme prob still gives tokens to the character using it? it doesn't say on the article.

and i like the generic keyword nerf!

[clixster]

Like the fact that themed teams will be easier to calculate, but it screws up the ability to put together some teams together at that are not "300" point increment friendly. Do not like this change at all. Now, the prob change of not letting a character use it twice is a good thing. Saw that a little to much lately, so it's good to see it altered. Not on board with bystanders not beeing able to use it thou. They are still a part of your force, even if they're not themed. Besides, how can you tell me that using a Mary Jane Watson pog on a spiderman based team or Alfred pog on a gotham or batman team not themed? Seems thematic to me and using your THEME prob thru them is completely accurate! Any ways, some changes good, some changes bad. Can't make everone happy i guess. Thanks for at least progressing the game.
:confused:

[Gentlegamer]

The wildcard change is exactly how I thought it worked when the game started. It seemed to make the most sense that you couldn't change team abilities during your opponents' turns. Finally, GD has seen the light.

[clixster]

I guess the wild card change is good. Can't tell you how many times i would use outwit to counter a players defensive power, only to have them wild card to batman when the attack was declared. Had a tendency to 'waste' an outwit at a critical time that way.

[Jarimy123]

Interesting I guess. The theme team stuff doesn't really affect 300 point games. I guess it brings theme teams down slightly, but the build doesn't mean anything does it in 300? It's still the same no?

Edit: I'm talking about the build restriction. You still only need 2 named figs and 3 generic figs for theme in 300. That's the same right?

[dcsuperfriend]

Well, I think the new TTPC rules stink. Anyone who knows me knows how bad my die rolls are. With the rule about a character that already has PC not being able to use TTPC or someone who does not share the keyword my game is really goig to suffer.:(

[rowdyoctopus]

Interesting I guess. The theme team stuff doesn't really affect 300 point games. I guess it brings theme teams down slightly, but the build doesn't mean anything does it in 300? It's still the same no?

Edit: I'm talking about the build restriction. You still only need 2 named figs and 3 generic figs for theme in 300. That's the same right?

The number of figures needed for a theme team at 300 is the same.

[SevenFeathers]

can someone stop complaining long enough to let me know if there is a release date for this new rule book?

[Jarimy123]

The number of figures needed for a theme team at 300 is the same.

I'm cool with things then. I hardly ever play theme, especially in 300. Brings them down some. I would of thought they might make some better provisions for named theme teams though. They were handing out chase figs to people who played in top 16 at Worlds that had named theme teams.

[RavenProject]

Interesting I guess. The theme team stuff doesn't really affect 300 point games. I guess it brings theme teams down slightly, but the build doesn't mean anything does it in 300? It's still the same no?

Edit: I'm talking about the build restriction. You still only need 2 named figs and 3 generic figs for theme in 300. That's the same right?
Yes, at even increments of 300 nothing has changed.

I'm going to be running a lot more 400-point games.

-J

[rowdyoctopus]

can someone stop complaining long enough to let me know if there is a release date for this new rule book?

The article yesterday said "at the end of the week." Which probably meant at the end of a week long series of articles based on the context. Right now the rulebook is supposed to go into effect May 1st.

[dcsuperfriend]

can someone stop complaining long enough to let me know if there is a release date for this new rule book?

They begin May 1, 2011. It was in the first announcement yesterday.

[Jarimy123]

Yes, at even increments of 300 nothing has changed.

I'm going to be running a lot more 400-point games.

-J

Most of the tourneys in my area have been 400 lately. 400-600 range, but normally 400. So I guess it affects tourneys around here, but 300 is still the standard for major events which is the #1 thing I care about.

But yea I hardly run theme anyway. I think the changes make sense.

[rowdyoctopus]

For those wondering, here is a chart of how many figures are needed for a theme team currently (old) and with the new rulebook (new)

GENERIC
Old New
300 3 3
400 4 6
500 5 6
600 6 6
700 7 9
800 8 9
900 9 9
1000 10 12
1100 11 12
1200 12 12

NAMED (non-generic)
Old New
300 2 2
400 3 4
500 4 4
600 4 4
700 5 6
800 6 6
900 6 6
1000 7 8
1100 8 8
1200 8 8

As you can see it only effects Named theme teams at the intervals after multiples of 300. However it effects generic theme teams at everything except multiples of 300.

[gimrag17]

I like the updates.

It'll make WC a bit tricky but I like the thought process that is now necessary to make these types of teams work.

I also like the theme team changes. I like the restrictions to the PC rolls.

I'm an excited guy over here!

[PONX]

Cool, the change to wildcards makes Super-Skrull illuminati a little better :)

[RSIxidor]

Well, I think the new TTPC rules stink. Anyone who knows me knows how bad my die rolls are. With the rule about a character that already has PC not being able to use TTPC or someone who does not share the keyword my game is really goig to suffer.:(

Tried vegas style dice?

[T Rez]

Interesting I guess. The theme team stuff doesn't really affect 300 point games. I guess it brings theme teams down slightly, but the build doesn't mean anything does it in 300? It's still the same no?

Edit: I'm talking about the build restriction. You still only need 2 named figs and 3 generic figs for theme in 300. That's the same right?

True, but they royally screwed theme teams at 400pts (which is what my friends and I play at). I'm fine with raising the amount of characters for generic keywords, but why named keywords?

They just made it harder to build comic accurate teams. Bad move.

[rowdyoctopus]

True, but they royally screwed theme teams at 400pts. I'm fine with raising the amount of characters for generic keywords, but why named keywords?

They just made it harder to build comic accurate teams. Bad move.

They raised the figure requirement at 400 pts by 1...

[candusima]

I like the theme changes. I see a bit of a problem with the CSA, but I've never played them or against them, and a rewording of the TA can fix this. I like that there's a nerf for generic teams; you can still make a swarm army with 19 figures to get map, but it doesn't turn into an abusive sea of PC.

As for the Wild Cards, I like this change as well. So you can still change around your abilities and abuse it, but you have to pick one abuse and keep it through your opponent's turn. Much simpler, and far less irritating.

[krusticlese]

Wildcards change- Big thumbs up. Maybe about 6 years late as theme teams have been the new abuse for a while, but good job!

Theme teams-

no pogs taking TTPC actions- Awesome

Letting player 1 pass map choice- OK I guess, no real opinion.

Letting non-free action takers use TTPC- OK. Simplification.

No TTPC for figs with PC- very cool

No TTPC for figs that have used TTPC- very cool

What is a theme in 400-600- Very, very awesome. Pretty much nerfs Generic Theme abuse @ 400 points especially Modern format. Like Ravenproject, I forsee myself running 400 points as the standard.

Nice changes thus far.

[doctor_x]

Is this game ever going to get to a point where we don't have changes to the rules every single time a new rulebook is released?

Just when we all will get accustomed to these new changes-they will change it on us AGAIN.

I guess that bystander pogs are never coming back now once the final ones are all retired.

Sad really, since the only team build filler left will be cheapo generics or ATA's.

The generics will not fill this role effectively as Bystanders since they are mostly 10pts and above.

[tyroclix]

I love the changes. It's easy for me because these are the "rules" I've been building under for years.

Wildcards - I always build with 1 defensive TA to copy. It makes a team more economical, I find. It also does clear up a lot of complications.

If anyone has followed my comments in the past you know I despised the TTPC. Way overpowered brilliantly illustrated by the last Worlds "Champ". While I don't like the change of a free action stopping the use of theme prob (always good stuffing some lame-o who perplexed first) I admit it is much simpler.

Reducing the abusive numbers of Prob is BRILLIANT!

Love the removal of Multiple uses of Prob.

Love the reduced effectiveness of Bystanders.

A GREAT change.

I'm loving the simplification of theme team calculations, too. And their demphasis is a plus.

I would think the map choice/ first benefit is a popular change. I like it.

As someone who doesn't like building teams limited to keywords WK thought up, these changes are great.

As a judge, I think these changes are GREAT.

Curious as to how the Crime Syndicate TA will be worded to see if it parallels TTPC.

:)

[Geof-Force]

For those wondering, here is a chart of how many figures are needed for a theme team currently (old) and with the new rulebook (new)

GENERIC
Old New
300 3 3
400 4 6
500 5 6
600 6 6
700 7 9
800 8 9
900 9 9
1000 10 12
1100 11 12
1200 12 12

NAMED (non-generic)
Old New
300 2 2
400 3 4
500 4 4
600 4 4
700 5 6
800 6 6
900 6 6
1000 7 9
1100 8 9
1200 9 9

As you can see, under 1000 pts, it only effects Named theme teams at 400 and 700 pts. However it effects generic theme teams at everything except 300, 600 and 900.

Shouldn't the new need only 8 figures at 1000-1200 pts?

[Jarimy123]

They raised the figure requirement at 400 pts by 1...

Hahahaha dude the end of the world is always happening here.

[Questions]

I'm pleased at streamlining and simplification.

Like the fact that themed teams will be easier to calculate, but it screws up the ability to put together some teams together at that are not "300" point increment friendly.

My biggest issue is that I don't see how this is streamlined or simple. At least with the old system using math one could easily calculate the number of characters you needed and the number of themed team PCs you received. This new system with a chart just seems more complicated. I like that they have cut down the generic keyword abuse, but I think it should have been a simplier system. (Sticking with the math that we used before.)

I guess the wild card change is good. Can't tell you how many times i would use outwit to counter a players defensive power, only to have them wild card to batman when the attack was declared. Had a tendency to 'waste' an outwit at a critical time that way.

In the general sense, this often would not be an issue. Assuming you had a LOF on the wild card to begin with, you would have one character Outwit the defensive ability and then your next action would be to have your ranged combat attacker attack. Your opponent couldn't switch team abilities (to the Batman Ally team ability) in response to the ranged combat attack because that would make the action illegal. So often this would not be an issue. (Running Shot/HSS could encounter this problem.)

This new rule, though, probably does make things a little more simple. It does greatly nerf wild cards, though. (So much for the argument that we can't change things without changing the point value of characters.)

[rowdyoctopus]

Shouldn't the new need only 8 figures at 1000-1200 pts?

Yes, thank you. Mistake.

[gatharion]

Remember when Wildcards couldn't lend combat values? THAT was some Wildcard nerfing. This is comparatively minor and makes things much more simple. (Although, saying it's a free action that ignores the rule they just stated regarding free actions isn't exactly "simple".)

[T Rez]

They raised the figure requirement at 400 pts by 1...

It's a 33% increase that makes more named keywords unplayable at 400 pts. AFAIK it was generic keywords that were being abused so changing named keywords was completely unnecessary.

I agree with Questions that this does not simplify the process of determining theme teams. They should have sticked with the same system. Just change the number for generics.

[WarHULK]

I like the changes in today's rules. Making Wildcards less confusing will help lots of people that can't dedicate as much time to clix as some of us do and the Theme Team rules are fairly easy to remember and will nerf some generic keyword teams without too much change to named keywords.

Looking forward to getting the full 2011 Rule Book and PAC!!

[rowdyoctopus]

It's a 33% increase that makes more named keywords unplayable at 400 pts. AFAIK it was generic keywords that were being abused so changing named keywords was completely unnecessary.

I'm trying to think of 3 figure, 400 pt named keyword theme teams I liked to run but can't come up with any off the top of my head.

Does it stop some teams from being theme? Yeah. In the end, it works the same way as making a generic theme team at 400 pts used to work.

[Fredwood]

Eh its not that big of a nerf to Wild Cards, and it makes it a little easier to use them, before you had to do it with an action, this is simpler and improves game play so you don't have to argue about the timing of copying.

I like the new Prob rules, makes sense plus getting 2 for a non generic 300 point theme team is nice and limiting Shazadam to one (essentially none since that whole team has PC) is nice too, but my favorite tactic of running Bystanders with Willpower will be less useful.

I'm on the fence about Theme Teams, I don't like 4 characters for a 400 point non-generic theme team which weren't the problem, in fact it pretty much screws it for all non-generic teams just above a multiple of 300. Plus I don't know, it seems like it would have the reverse effect of what was actually intended. You still have to do math but then have to remember the rule and then calculate the difference, before it was just one step of doing math (and generic theme teams was as easy as dropping the 0s). However it still does damage generics...kinda. 300 point generic theme team abuse was always the problem and it does nothing to address that, plus with all the low point scientist and mysticals and robots and cosmics, readily available it still shouldn't be much of an issue to build a generic theme team and adhere to the stipulations, it will probably be easier for them than non-generic teams.

[Geof-Force]

It's a 33% increase that makes more named keywords unplayable at 400 pts. AFAIK it was generic keywords that were being abused so changing named keywords was completely unnecessary.

Yes but note this line:
Like the rules for building a force, the number of uses of Probability Control a themed team gets depends on the build total. Build totals of 300 points or less grant generic themed teams 1 use of Probability Control and named themed teams 2 uses. Again, like the build requirements, this would double for build totals 400 through 600, triple for 700 through 900, and so on.

Named themes get more TTPC. :cool:

[broodwarjc]

I really like the new changes. The simplification of wild cards is nice, but the big surprise came with the changes to theme teams.
I have always despised generic theme teams, to easy to build for and not fun to play against (Oh Prof. Xavier is going to outwit me through Barry Allen, just like in that one comic... :cheeky: ).
The reduction in generic team theme probs is MUCH appreciated, no more Lian Harpers probing my army and no more 2 theme probs for so and so's 300 point martial arts theme team (Nightcrawler, AA Robin, Howard, LE Diana Prince, and Iron Fist).

[broodwarjc]

Yes but note this line:


Named themes get more TTPC. :cool:

I am loving the more TTPC for named teams, about time they got some love over generic teams.

[hawkeye55]

I just wanted to see characters without keywords not affect theme... looking at you Omega Red.

Yes.

I like these changes a lot.

[DrZero]

The new rules say that if a figure can already use probability control, they cannot use theme team probability control.

I missed that - my bad.

[clixster]

I'm trying to think of 3 figure, 400 pt named keyword theme teams I liked to run but can't come up with any off the top of my head.

Does it stop some teams from being theme? Yeah. In the end, it works the same way as making a generic theme team at 400 pts used to work.

The first team that i can't now play themed is Trinity at 400 points, using Brave and the Bold Supes(216 ), Wonder Woman(108), and Batman(74). They come out to 398. They are no longer themed. And before someone says it, yes i know you can still play them at 300 using the AE mechanic, but with this team, i don't like using them. Love them at 400,not so much at 300. Personal preference.

[rowdyoctopus]

The first team that i can't now play themed is Trinity at 400 points, using Brave and the Bold Supes(216 ), Wonder Woman(108), and Batman(74). They come out to 398. They are no longer themed. And before someone says it, yes i know you can still play them at 300 using the AE mechanic, but with this team, i don't like using them. Love them at 400,not so much at 300. Personal preference.

True. I was thinking of Avengers teams, and pretty much anything that involves Thor at 226 or Namor and Strange (or any other combo of two 150 pt figs) is hard to do.

I admit, it sucks. More prob is nice though.

[IceHot]

The CSA TA in the Blackest Night PAC is somewhat awkwardly written to begin with.

Perhaps they intended to redo this TA altogether and make it something other then PC based (which isnt terribly related to being from an alternate universe anyway).

[Gargantua]

They kept stressing how they were trying to simplify things and I think they went in completely the other direction with the theme team stuff. It took me long enough to get the theme team rules down and now they seem to be even more convoluted and loaded with exceptions. (Generic vs Named, Can't use TTPC if you have regular PC...)

[A_Higher_Level]

I never could understand why my amount of TTPC to use from my limited build of named keywords were always shafted by the plethora usage of TTPC my opponents generic keywords who had so many more options to build from.

[Hellboy]

REALLY awesome tweak of the theme team rules~!

it helps reign in abuse, simplifies it for new players and streamlines the whole process.

So far I have to give this new take on the rules Big thumbs up. It seems like you've really forged a great new game balance! I can't wait to see the tweaks to Stealth and hope it Strikes the same level balance the new TTPC rule does~!

GREAT JOB~! looking forward to reading these rules more than any new rules set or update before it~!

[Perplexinator]

haha, generic theme teams get a kick in the pants. yay!

[rowdyoctopus]

They kept stressing how they were trying to simplify things and I think they went in completely the other direction with the theme team stuff. It took me long enough to get the theme team rules down and now they seem to be even more convoluted and loaded with exceptions. (Generic vs Named, Can't use TTPC if you have regular PC...)

-If you have a theme team, figures on that team can use probability control x number of times.
-If a figure can use probability control already, they cannot use theme team prob
-If given a non-free action previously in the turn, a character cannot use theme team probability control
-Any figure without the keyword of the theme team cannot use theme team prob.
-A figure can only use theme team probability control once per turn.


That seems pretty easy and simplified to understand.

[IceHot]

This new rule, though, probably does make things a little more simple. It does greatly nerf wild cards, though. (So much for the argument that we can't change things without changing the point value of characters.)
Its arguable that Wildcards needed all that flexibility to meet the point value associated with them.

Bear in mind in the old, old days you couldnt play Marvel with DC figures in a sanctioned event.

The Wildcard rules have been refined with nearly every release of the rules I can remember.

These rules to me seem to be the most streamlined they have ever been.

Yep, I am willing to bet there will be some changes (pumps and dumps), but overall as someone who gets into the nuances of the rules I think you will really appreciate a lot of the subtle changes the new rules will offer.

Bear in mind, that we tend to read rules changes with the perspective of what rules we were just using. But a good rulebook is one that is simpler with a fresh set of eyes. Thus, try to approach the rulebook with a fresh set of eyes.

The game will have its complexities, but does the wording of the rulebook make those complexities more clear or leave them ambiguous?

Hopefully more clear.

[Jarimy123]

Is the "Ask judge to grant you a theme team" restricted to house rules? Or is it an actual rule?

I just ask because even though you don't meet the theme for "Trinity" in 400 points with the team listed above - any judge with common sense would grant you a theme team if you asked him to.

[Soul]

This part sound like a step in the right direction.

I wouldn't have minded to see one of the theme team bonuses ditched for generic theme teams (or even both of them), but hey everything that gives named keywords more power over generic keywords is good in my book.

Also like the Wildcard change! Flexible, but not as crazy as before. Especially the simplicity of this is a good thing.

[tyroclix]

True, but they royally screwed theme teams at 400pts (which is what my friends and I play at). I'm fine with raising the amount of characters for generic keywords, but why named keywords?

They just made it harder to build comic accurate teams. Bad move.

WK screwed you 400 point theme teams by making figures so expensive.

Play at 125 point intervals and you'll have 4 action theme teams that will work Mitch better.

[Questions]

-If you have a theme team, figures on that team can use probability control x number of times.
-If a figure can use probability control already, they cannot use theme team prob
-If given a non-free action previously in the turn, a character cannot use theme team probability control
-Any figure without the keyword of the theme team cannot use theme team prob.
-A figure can only use theme team probability control once per turn.


That seems pretty easy and simplified to understand.

Seeing your list I'm not sure how it is less complicated now.

Its arguable that Wildcards needed all that flexibility to meet the point value associated with them.

Bear in mind in the old, old days you couldnt play Marvel with DC figures in a sanctioned event.

The Wildcard rules have been refined with nearly every release of the rules I can remember.

These rules to me seem to be the most streamlined they have ever been.

Yep, I am willing to bet there will be some changes (pumps and dumps), but overall as someone who gets into the nuances of the rules I think you will really appreciate a lot of the subtle changes the new rules will offer.

Bear in mind, that we tend to read rules changes with the perspective of what rules we were just using. But a good rulebook is one that is simpler with a fresh set of eyes. Thus, try to approach the rulebook with a fresh set of eyes.

The game will have its complexities, but does the wording of the rulebook make those complexities more clear or leave them ambiguous?

Hopefully more clear.

Don't get me wrong. I support this rule change. I think it will simplify the wild card mechanic. I'm just amused when I see arguments that "Effect X " cannot be changed because the character was balanced at a certain point level and this will change the appropriateness of that point value. Mechanics are changed all the time and this is just another example. (I think we can agree that while this rule is much easier to understand it will make wild cards less effective than they are under the 2010 Core Rulebook.)

Is the "Ask judge to grant you a theme team" restricted to house rules? Or is it an actual rule?

It's a house rule.

[Perplexinator]

Is the "Ask judge to grant you a theme team" restricted to house rules? Or is it an actual rule?

I just ask because even though you don't meet the theme for "Trinity" in 400 points with the team listed above - any judge with common sense would grant you a theme team if you asked him to.

I would hope not.

Teams with the correct # of pieces but without a specific common keyword, along with comic proof, I can understand. But a team that doesn't meet the required # of pieces should NEVER be allowed to be a theme team. That's not bending the rule in favor of comic accuracy, that's breaking the rule all together.

[RavenProject]

(So much for the argument that we can't change things without changing the point value of characters.)
It's probably more accurate to say we can't change things without considering the point value.

Sometimes a power or ability does not provide utility equal to its point cost, so you improve it (Combat Reflexes, X-Men/Titans).

Sometimes it provides too much utility, and you need to nerf it (Hypersonic, Carrying).

And yes, sometimes we scratch our heads and ask WTF (Perplex, Injustice League).

-J

[rowdyoctopus]

Seeing your list I'm not sure how it is less complicated now.

It is very easy to teach. Regardless, I think everyone is getting hung up on "we are simplifying the rules." They are trying to streamline and balance at the same time. I think it was more important that they balance the theme team bonuses rather than streamline them.

[Questions]

It is very easy to teach. Regardless, I think everyone is getting hung up on "we are simplifying the rules." They are trying to streamline and balance at the same time. I think it was more important that they balance the theme team bonuses rather than streamline them.

We will see how it plays out. Right now I still think the chart will be more confusing than the math.

At the same time, I think they could have done both. It would have taken something different, but I think they could have both balanced themed teams and streamlined the rules. This new rule is just a little too clunky for my taste.

[Jarimy123]

I would hope not.

Teams with the correct # of pieces but without a specific common keyword, along with comic proof, I can understand. But a team that doesn't meet the required # of pieces should NEVER be allowed to be a theme team. That's not bending the rule in favor of comic accuracy, that's breaking the rule all together.

I don't see how. I'm sure there is some team-up out there where it makes completely perfect sense to have a theme team with 2 figures that add up to 400 points. Sure it shouldn't work in a sanctioned Wizkids event - but if it really makes good sense that it should, I think any judge/player thinking it's some sort of major deal has a stick up their ###.

[Perplexinator]

It's breaking the rule that a player needs 4 named keyword characters for a 400pt team.

I would hope the 2 200-point character named keyword team would not be allowed by any judge.

Why even consult the rule book if a judge is going to break the rules like that?

I know people want to be comic accurate, and I can understand it to certain lengths, but this is just completely against the rules.

Keywords can be argued. X should have ____ keyword because he was in X comic with X team. # of people on a themed team cannot be argued.

Nothing stops the player from playing Trinity as a non-theme team. Sometimes this has to be done, as the game won't cover every team perfectly fine. Breaking the rules doesn't help the game.

[robedestroyer]

What the heck Wizkids?!? You totally nerfed my X-statix theme team!



On a side note, I'm liking these rules changes. It seems that the theme team restrictions are the most controversial. I like that they somewhat stuck it to the generic theme team builds. It's also a good thing that the TTPC is now dependent upon the point build rather than having 12 Teen Titans on your team in a 500 point game.

Like the rules for building a force, the number of uses of Probability Control a themed team gets depends on the build total. Build totals of 300 points or less grant generic themed teams 1 use of Probability Control and named themed teams 2 uses. Again, like the build requirements, this would double for build totals 400 through 600, triple for 700 through 900, and so on.

[A_Higher_Level]

For those wondering, here is a chart of how many figures are needed for a theme team currently (old) and with the new rulebook (new)

GENERIC
Old New
300 3 3
400 4 6
500 5 6
600 6 6
700 7 9
800 8 9
900 9 9
1000 10 12
1100 11 12
1200 12 12

NAMED (non-generic)
Old New
300 2 2
400 3 4
500 4 4
600 4 4
700 5 6
800 6 6
900 6 6
1000 7 8
1100 8 8
1200 8 8

As you can see it only effects Named theme teams at the intervals after multiples of 300. However it effects generic theme teams at everything except multiples of 300.

EDIT: Here's the included usage. Try this...

GENERIC
Old New Usage
300 3 3 1
400 4 6 2
500 5 6 2
600 6 6 2
700 7 9 3
800 8 9 3
900 9 9 3
1000 10 12 4
1100 11 12 4
1200 12 12 4

NAMED (non-generic)
Old New Usage
300 2 2 2
400 3 4 4
500 4 4 4
600 4 4 4
700 5 6 6
800 6 6 6
900 6 6 6
1000 7 8 8
1100 8 8 8
1200 8 8 8


:nervous:

[robedestroyer]

So, about that theme team with Apocalypse and his Horsemen? Probably not going to happen in Modern Age. :ermm:

[Perplexinator]

I'm pretty sure the math here is wrong. The artile says it doubles, then so on, but I'm sure that was not the intention. Try this...

"...it is based around multiples of 300. If you are using a generic keyword, then you’ll need 3 characters on your team. If you are using a named keyword, then you’ll only need 2."

"For build totals of 400 through 600, that number doubles (6 characters for a generic themed team, 4 characters for a named themed team). And so on."

Generic, 100/3, 200/3, 300/3, 400/6, 500/6, 600/6, 700/9, 800/9, 900/9
Named, 100/2, 200/2, 300/2, 400/4, 500/4, 600/4, 700/6, 800/6, 900/6

Easy peasy.

[Jarimy123]

It's breaking the rule that a player needs 4 named keyword characters for a 400pt team.

I would hope the 2 200-point character named keyword team would not be allowed by any judge.

Why even consult the rule book if a judge is going to break the rules like that?

I know people want to be comic accurate, and I can understand it to certain lengths, but this is just completely against the rules.

Keywords can be argued. X should have ____ keyword because he was in X comic with X team. # of people on a themed team cannot be argued.

Nothing stops the player from playing Trinity as a non-theme team. Sometimes this has to be done, as the game won't cover every team perfectly fine. Breaking the rules doesn't help the game.

You do realize we are talking about house rules here right? Some venues have Highlander house rules - is that breaking the rules? Did you just miss the part where that was mentioned? Or do you go exactly 30 in a 30 MPH speed limit zome because that is THE LAW?

[Slayer_Xtreme]

I like the changes and most of them make sense. My favorite is finally they are allowing you to make the other person go first rather then being first to take the first turn if you win the dice roll. Granted you also lose map choice but its ok with me. The only thing I really have an issue with is the change to how many you need to build a theme team at different point values. I think Wildcards will still have plenty of abuse room but being stuck to just one TA on the other player's turn will be a big help since now people won't be stacking up Skrull, Mystics, and Batman Ally not to mention at least early on I'm sure people will forget to change to their defense TA at the end of their turn leaving them open to attack without their little defense tricks. Overall I like the changes and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the changes.

[Dikarika]

Or do you go exactly 30 in a 30 MPH speed limit zome because that is THE LAW?

(Sylvester Stallone Voice) I AM THE LAAAWWWWW! (/Sylvester Stallone Voice)

I dig the changes. Not so much the "Named" theme teams, but I'll get used to that eventually.

Overall, better than figuring out the three shells, anyway...

[Steelmage2000]

I love the new changes to wild cards and Theme PC, less abuses will be good.

I do not know why some people say that it is hard to make a named keyword team at 400. It should not be that hard. Here's one the Fantastic Four, from the starter, that 4 characters that equals 400 points. With the Thing's Yer Ever Lovin' Pal ability should make this team be able to use theme probs more optional.

[PsychoHippie]

Remember when Wildcards couldn't lend combat values? THAT was some Wildcard nerfing. This is comparatively minor and makes things much more simple. (Although, saying it's a free action that ignores the rule they just stated regarding free actions isn't exactly "simple".)

THIS.

I love me some wildcards but I really don't see the nerfiness of this new rule. Now I get to change TAs on my own turn as much as I want! That balances out not being able to do it on your turn quite nicely, IMO.

And this settles the Batman Ally/illegal action nonsense once and for all.

I was actually holding my breath when I heard that wildcards were gonna change in the new rules. "Don't let them go back to that use/possess crap again" I pleaded.

This I can live with. And the theme team changes? Likewise survivable.

[A_Higher_Level]

"...it is based around multiples of 300. If you are using a generic keyword, then you’ll need 3 characters on your team. If you are using a named keyword, then you’ll only need 2."

"For build totals of 400 through 600, that number doubles (6 characters for a generic themed team, 4 characters for a named themed team). And so on."

Generic, 100/3, 200/3, 300/3, 400/6, 500/6, 600/6, 700/9, 800/9, 900/9
Named, 100/2, 200/2, 300/2, 400/4, 500/4, 600/4, 700/6, 800/6, 900/6

Easy peasy.

Don't mind me, I'm blind at the moment

[RavenProject]

And this settles the Batman Ally/illegal action nonsense once and for all.
But Skru...

(RP beats someone into green hamburger)

-J

[Steelmage2000]

I was actually holding my breath when I heard that wildcards were gonna change in the new rules. "Don't let them go back to that use/possess crap again" I pleaded.


For some reason this made me belly laugh, don't know why, maybe because I know how Wizkids did things (or use to do things).

[Questions]

I love me some wildcards but I really don't see the nerfiness of this new rule. Now I get to change TAs on my own turn as much as I want! That balances out not being able to do it on your turn quite nicely, IMO.

Couldn't you pretty much already change team abilities as much as you wanted on your own turn? As far as effect, this change hasn't really changed anything in that regard.

And this settles the Batman Ally/illegal action nonsense once and for all.

Didn't the old rules already do that?

(And I'll say it again, I have no problem with this change to the rules. Just want to understand where people are coming from.)

[Perplexinator]

You do realize we are talking about house rules here right? Some venues have Highlander house rules - is that breaking the rules? Did you just miss the part where that was mentioned? Or do you go exactly 30 in a 30 MPH speed limit zome because that is THE LAW?

Did you miss the part where I said I felt it was fine for a judge to rule a team a theme team based on poor keywords and comic proof?

I know we are talking about House Rules, but dang I feel even House Rules have their boundaries. A judge that is loose on house rules disintegrates the essence and spirit of the game.

Breaking the # of pieces needed for a themed team is one step towards breaking other rules, even if in journey for more fun.

It's a slippery step.

[T Rez]

Is the "Ask judge to grant you a theme team" restricted to house rules? Or is it an actual rule?

I just ask because even though you don't meet the theme for "Trinity" in 400 points with the team listed above - any judge with common sense would grant you a theme team if you asked him to.

The real question is why should we even have to house rule this when it worked out perfectly fine before WK changed the rules?

I don't understand how people can defend raising the requirements for non-generic keyworded theme teams at 400 points and then suggest that it be house ruled. Isn't that a concession that the new restriction on non-generic theme teams is absurd?

[PsychoHippie]

Couldn't you pretty much already change team abilities as much as you wanted on your own turn? As far as effect, this change hasn't really changed anything in that regard.



Didn't the old rules already do that?

(And I'll say it again, I have no problem with this change to the rules. Just want to understand where people are coming from.)

No, you could only change once per action.

And I KNOW you spend enough time in RoC to know that the old ruling caused more confusion than it fixed..especially where Running Shot was involved.

[Darkined]

I like the fact that one character cannot double up on PC if they already have it on dial. I like that they are not rewarding people for swarming pieces to get PC. There are many cheap PCers out there that if you need more you can plan for it on your teams.

The generic requirement of 6 at 400 - 600 points is a little annoying but it does in a way reward those who build theme teams off of Named Keywords.

With wildcards I personally like the change because it creates the need for more strategy before your turn is out and prevents those last minute moments during when you are attacking someone and last second they say 'Mystic team ability'. It keeps it fair and allows for both players to plan properly for each other. That and you can still take advantage of wildcards during your turn which if played right can be devastating.

So far the new rules are pretty good and while there are some minor downsides they are in a way very reasonable in comparison to the payoffs and in keeping the game fair and interesting.

[Holy Knight]

The first team that i can't now play themed is Trinity at 400 points, using Brave and the Bold Supes(216 ), Wonder Woman(108), and Batman(74). They come out to 398. They are no longer themed. And before someone says it, yes i know you can still play them at 300 using the AE mechanic, but with this team, i don't like using them. Love them at 400,not so much at 300. Personal preference.

The Red Lantern Corps too, since the only three characters with that keyword (Atrocitus, Mera, and Guy Gardner) come to 397.

So that's kind of a drag, although I do think the change is good overall. It's nice to see Named keywords give more bonuses than generic ones.

[Trypswitch]

Luckily they also have the Black Hole Sons "Named Keyword" so they're still legal.

OH YEAH!! I totally forgot!! Thanks man!!

[Questions]

No, you could only change once per action.

And I KNOW you spend enough time in RoC to know that the old ruling caused more confusion than it fixed..especially where Running Shot was involved.

No idea what you're talking about. :) I agree that this change in the rules is more simple as far as the defensive side of the wild card goes. (I assume you were refering to the interaction between Running Shot and Batman Ally team ability.) My point was more on the offensive side of the game. When it is my turn, what can I do now that I couldn't do before? Or conversely what can I not do now that I could do before? I don't think this has changed the way my wild cards work when it is my turn.

[PsychoHippie]

No idea what you're talking about. :) I agree that this change in the rules is more simple as far as the defensive side of the wild card goes. (I assume you were refering to the interaction between Running Shot and Batman Ally team ability.) My point was more on the offensive side of the game. When it is my turn, what can I do now that I couldn't do before? Or conversely what can I not do now that I could do before? I don't think this has changed the way my wild cards work when it is my turn.

I thought that, since the rules said you could change a TA once per action, that you were limited in how many times you could change it. Say, three times in a 300 point game...barring free actions, which would bump that number up.

If I am correct, then the new ruling does improve wildcards' flexibility on their own turn.

If I am incorrect, then I am the sort of person who needed this ruling to clear things up.

[Questions]

I thought that, since the rules said you could change a TA once per action, that you were limited in how many times you could change it. Say, three times in a 300 point game...barring free actions, which would bump that number up.

While that is true, I can't think of an instance where it makes a difference. Under the new rules being able to spend 10 minutes giving my figures free actions to rotate through team team abilities seems like stalling. Once I've finally settled on a team ability, I can't see a practical difference from the current rules on the offensive side.

If I am correct, then the new ruling does improve wildcards' flexibility on their own turn.

If I am incorrect, then I am the sort of person who needed this ruling to clear things up.

Clearing the issue up for you, though, is a good side effect of the new rule. :)

[realdarkphoenix]

So now can I use ttpc if I had say, 3 xmen and 1 brotherhood?

[VikingRS]

Ok, I have read all the posts so far. I think I have the keyword changes roughly straight though I still feel a little confused.

Mainly this has just brought me to a point where I feel that Non-Generic Keywords should be COMPLETELY abolished and bonuses only given to named Keywords.

I think that would solve the problem.

And mind you this is coming from someone with fleshed out Martial Artist, Scientist, Detective, Future, Mystical and Warrior Keyword teams.


Also, does this mean now that as long as I fulfill my Theme Team requirements I can add non-KW figs to my team?

[Steelmage2000]

Also, does this mean now that as long as I fulfill my Theme Team requirements I can add non-KW figs to my team?

I was wondering about that myself, but if they allow for non-KW figs in a team that fulfill Theme Team requirements, I can see a lot of abuse in that as well.

[superflyMP]

My main concern with all of this is the "end of week" thing and the date that EOW happens to be. :grin:

[Ouchmaker]

Mainly this has just brought me to a point where I feel that Non-Generic Keywords should be COMPLETELY abolished and bonuses only given to named Keywords.

I think that would solve the problem.

Except when characters only have generic keywords. You would be okay with Mole Man and a bunch of Moloids not to be considered as a theme team? Are you so afraid of their dominance over the Fantastic Four? :cheeky:

Removing all keywords would lead back to min-max.
Removing generic keywords would neuter the figures with only generic keywords when compared to figures with named keywords.
So the answer has to lie in the theme team bonuses given to named and generic keyword theme teams. And this is a step in the right direction.

I like these changes, I would have gone even further, and reducing the map roll bonus on generic keyword teams as well.

[cattmoe]

Many years ago, I played a guy who ran a Wildcard/Stealth team... can't remember all the specifics, except that it involved V Annihilus from IC and I think maybe some Doombots. In any case, any time you tried to do anything from range, he would immediately change to Stealth. Any time you tried to do anythign else, he would immediately change to Mystics.

Now, even though it was brutal, it was a legit team and I don't knock him for that. But when you add to it that he was a prize shark and a complete jerk, I never regretted when people caught onto his sharking, started building to beat him, and he stopped showing up a few weeks later.

This is honestly the first time I wish he would show up again, just so I could play that team with this new ruling and decimate him. :)

(Sidenote: Anyone who knows me knows I am not a vindictive person by any means, nor am I usually prone to anger or resentment. So the above post should attest to just how truly abbhorent a person this guy was.)

[Questions]

So now can I use ttpc if I had say, 3 xmen and 1 brotherhood?

Also, does this mean now that as long as I fulfill my Theme Team requirements I can add non-KW figs to my team?

I was wondering about that myself, but if they allow for non-KW figs in a team that fulfill Theme Team requirements, I can see a lot of abuse in that as well.

We will have to see the actual rulebook, but nothing that has been said makes me think that they changed the way theme teams work. I expect that a themed team will still require a force that has all the same keyword, with the exception of bystanders.

[clameire]

Its about time.

Yes ! it's about time Wildcard get nerfed because they were too confusing and too powerful. I'm glad they can now use only one TA at a time during opponent's turn, but i would have made them use only one TA per turn even on their own turn if it was me (well, if it was me, they would have to choose their TA at the beginning of the game, and i've been saying that since infinity challenge !)

Yes ! it's about time TRUE KEYWORDS worth more than GENERIC KEYWORDS. Would have hope they would get rid of generic keyword alltogether, but well, that's a beginning...

Yes ! it's about time they revisit theme teams bonuses because there were too many rerolls for one attack, and too complicated rules about "who can PC or TTPC or not"... Those rules aren't the "simple ones" i would have choose (i would have done, you have a reroll for each 300 pts, it doesn't cost an action, it's just a reroll, free and whenever you want, but only one... nothing to do with probability control, just a reroll granted by you playing theme team... simple, simplier, handy, and bloodbowl like, would have been great... well, next year perhaps)

Overall, if those rules aren't an april fool's, they are great news in my opinion.

I expect that a themed team will still require a force that has all the same keyword, with the exception of bystanders.

oh i hope you are right
because otherwise it will suck big time

[weaponizedsoul]

They raised the figure requirement at 400 pts by 1...

and actually reduced it by 2 if you're playing 600. I'd say that's a buff.

[dreadstar]

As an outsider looking in on these rules changes (haven't played in quite a while), I would be a bit skeptical of the "streamlining" claim. I find it odd that they introduce a new rule wording for free actions (doing away with the "once per turn" wording, which I never really found that problematic), and now are already introducing an exception to that rule! C'mon!! That seems really silly to create a new set of rules that immediately in conflict with themselves....

[weaponizedsoul]

i've always liked wildcards and this is certainly a welcome change! Wildcard teams relied on that flexibility to be as disruptive as possible to your opponent's play. Now that flexibility is gone and we will have to rely more on planning to get the job done. I honestly don't think they nerfed them enough. They should have just flat out restricted them to one TA of choice for the whole game!:laugh: Maybe 5 years from now??

[T Rez]

and actually reduced it by 2 if you're playing 600. I'd say that's a buff.

The requirement for 600 points for named keywords is still 4. The same as it was before (600/150=4).

[Valtz]

Save for the 3 characters per 300 points thing (I think it's more confusing than before) so far these changes seem to be for the better

[tyroclix]

While that is true, I can't think of an instance where it makes a difference. Under the new rules being able to spend 10 minutes giving my figures free actions to rotate through team team abilities seems like stalling. Once I've finally settled on a team ability, I can't see a practical difference from the current rules on the offensive side.

There isn't. What WK wanted to do was change Wildcards on the defensive side of the "ball". They have also been trying to streamline the rules in so far that they are consistent.

By making it a free action to change your team ability they, offensively, work the EXACT same way. But defensively they can only be whatever you gave your last free action to on your turn.

Its logical that I can't give a figure a free action on my opponent's turn. So flipping through defensive team abilities is no longer an option which clears up some rules.

It will be interesting to see if Mind Control gets any changes (I'm betting it does). If you can use free action in addition to a tokenable action (and even if you can't), mind controlling a Wild Card to switch its Mystic TA to an X-Men TA would be pretty nifty.

Thinking back through the rules changes since I joined (CT days) the only one I ever despised was fliers firing out of adjacency. Maybe also the weird wording of the Team Abilities that crippled Wildcards, too.

Otherwise I've all felt they've been a push in the right direction.

[hanzoslash]

True. I was thinking of Avengers teams, and pretty much anything that involves Thor at 226 or Namor and Strange (or any other combo of two 150 pt figs) is hard to do.

I admit, it sucks. More prob is nice though.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Namor and Strange from Secret Invasion would make a theme team at 300 points. With the new rules they get an extra theme prob instead of just one like before.

Thor and Captain America from Hammer of Thor also fit together on a 300 point team for theme.

Seems pretty easy to me.

The way it looks now, Generic teams did take a hit for theme on point totals that are not multiples of 300.

So far, a step in right direction. Now, if they would allow figures with different keywords or none at all to not break theme for Named keyword teams, would be another step in the right direction.

[VikingRS]

Now, if they would allow figures with different keywords or none at all to not break theme for Named keyword teams, would be another step in the right direction.

Could be interesting, but there may be trouble in that....

[WakandaMan]

While I hate Rule Changes in general, I love these ones! Good to see changes that are making the rules simpler. Also nice to see generic theme teams get a singnificant nerf so that named theme teams are a better option. :)

[T Rez]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Namor and Strange from Secret Invasion would make a theme team at 300 points. With the new rules they get an extra theme prob instead of just one like before.

Thor and Captain America from Hammer of Thor also fit together on a 300 point team for theme.

Seems pretty easy to me.

The way it looks now, Generic teams did take a hit for theme on point totals that are not multiples of 300.

So far, a step in right direction. Now, if they would allow figures with different keywords or none at all to not break theme for Named keyword teams, would be another step in the right direction.

No one ever said there was a problem at the 300 pt level. We were discussing how 400 pt named keyword teams got screwed over. You no longer get theme bonus when playing Trinity, Red Lantern Corps and many Avengers teams at 400 pts.

For the most part several named keywords can no longer have 400 pt theme team when using a 250 pt fig. The number of options in named theme team building has gone down. Why would they do this when named theme teams were never the problem. It's the generics that needed nerfing.

For instance, my 400 pt Sinestro Corps is no longer a theme team with these new rules:

Sinestro (DC75 SR)
Lyssa Drak
Amon Sur
+feats

I get no theme team bonus now for playing this team (only 3 clix). It's BS really.

[broodwarjc]

No one ever said there was a problem at the 300 pt level. We were discussing how 400 pt named keyword teams got screwed over. You no longer get theme bonus when playing Trinity, Red Lantern Corps and many Avengers teams at 400 pts.

For the most part several named keywords can no longer have 400 pt theme team when using a 250 pt fig. The number of options in named theme team building has gone down. Why would they do this when named theme teams were never the problem. It's the generics that needed nerfing.

For instance, my 400 pt Sinestro Corps is no longer a theme team with these new rules:

Sinestro (DC75 SR)
Lyssa Drak
Amon Sur
+feats

I get no theme team bonus now for playing this team (only 3 clix). It's BS really.

I will sacrifice 400 point named build for the nerf to all of the generic builds.

[T Rez]

I will sacrifice 400 point named build for the nerf to all of the generic builds.

Could you explain why 400 pt named theme teams needed to be "sacrificed"? They could have just raised the minimum clix for generic builds. I don't see how that would have been so impossibly difficult to do.

I'll give it a shot:

"A generic themed team requires one figure per 70 pts played.

A named themed team requires one figure per 150 pts played."

See, was that really that difficult? Explained in 2 sentences instead of a whole paragraph like their new version does. Personally, I would probably change the first sentence to be per 60 pts played. But that's just me hating on generics.

[charlesdward]

I'm ok with this.
Anything that nerfs the ridiculous generic theme teams is fine by me.
And the wildcard changes are fine too. Far less confusing to explain, and since my own teams tend to "use" wildcards rather than "abuse" them... I'm ok with this, too.
I can see how those who would put Jason Blood and the Alfred pog on a Spidey WC team might be a bit upset about it, but I can't say I'm particularly sympathetic.
And they still copy ATA's, so I'm good!

[rowdyoctopus]

Could you explain why 400 pt named theme teams needed to be "sacrificed"? They could have just raised the minimum clix for generic builds. I don't see how that would have been so impossibly difficult to do.

I'll give it a shot:

"A generic themed team requires one figure per 70 pts played.

A named themed team requires one figure per 150 pts played."

See, was that really that difficult? Explained in 2 sentences instead of a whole paragraph like their new version does. Personally, I would probably change the first sentence to be per 60 pts played. But that's just me hating on generics.
Obviously game design felt that named theme teams needed a hit too.

[VikingRS]

Well I suppose these keyword team changes will revive the secondary market a bit with all the people needing Hand Ninja's and Vampire Lackey's and the sort to make their theme teams viable again.

In the end it just seems like the Non-Generic teams get nerfed 20-30 points. :knockedou

[Grumpygoat]

Awesome. I like these changes.

[tom730]

Awesome. I like these changes.

Is this an "April Fool's joke?":laugh:

Hey Norm!
Grumpy likes it! He really likes it!

I like the changes as well (no joke!)
"generic theme teams" were always something I formerly disliked - now not so much!
My only question is, how do I get a cool pony avatar???

[SLVRSR4]

Does anybody else find it funny that some of the cheese players are coming out of the woodwork to publically cry about the new changes while the players who have had the good name of "Theme Teams" sullied by the theme bonuses sit back and don't say anything bad about it?

[T Rez]

Does anybody else find it funny that some of the cheese players are coming out of the woodwork to publically cry about the new changes while the players who have had the good name of "Theme Teams" sullied by the theme bonuses sit back and don't say anything bad about it?

I haven't seen a single person "publically" (publicly) complain about the higher restrictions placed on generic theme teams (which are the ones being abused and "cheesy").

I also don't understand how "Theme Teams" were sullied by theme bonuses. That was the best change next to special powers that heroclix ever saw. It limited the amount of min/maxing cheese that was rampant prior to theme team bonuses (bunch of hookers with Firelord). I would never want to go back to those days.

[tchipley]

I like that it's harder to get the theme bonus. It's been the most impactful addition to the game since the change to hypersonic rules because of Icons Superman.

The theme bonus should be rare and should be like the crossover events or annuals.
The whole teams gets together to face off against a monstrous threat (Avengers vs. JLA, X-men vs. Teen Titans, Secret Invasion etc.) You get my drift.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't build theme teams. Just let off the "I need the bonus" teat and build your favorite X-men, Justice League teams. Play em without the bonus and challenge your mind to strategize to fill in the gaps.

[JEFFREYAS]

Seems like I remember that same team,Matt.I also remember the T-Bolts abuse he practiced every time he used a fig w/ the Avengers symbol.I'm like you,I'd like to face that wildcard/stealth team again,even though I'm REALLY rusty form not having played in a while.



Many years ago, I played a guy who ran a Wildcard/Stealth team... can't remember all the specifics, except that it involved V Annihilus from IC and I think maybe some Doombots. In any case, any time you tried to do anything from range, he would immediately change to Stealth. Any time you tried to do anythign else, he would immediately change to Mystics.

Now, even though it was brutal, it was a legit team and I don't knock him for that. But when you add to it that he was a prize shark and a complete jerk, I never regretted when people caught onto his sharking, started building to beat him, and he stopped showing up a few weeks later.

This is honestly the first time I wish he would show up again, just so I could play that team with this new ruling and decimate him. :)

(Sidenote: Anyone who knows me knows I am not a vindictive person by any means, nor am I usually prone to anger or resentment. So the above post should attest to just how truly abbhorent a person this guy was.)

[Whitelightning89]

I used thunderbolts ta card but i never abused it. And i didn't use wild cards all that much. Needless to say I am confortalbe with the new game changes.

[dcsuperfriend]

Tried vegas style dice?

Yes, I have. I just have bad luck.

[hanzoslash]

No one ever said there was a problem at the 300 pt level. We were discussing how 400 pt named keyword teams got screwed over.

Ok, I will give you that one. But RowdyOctopus did make it sound like he was having trouble at the 300 point total. It is still very feasible to make many Avengers teams with any of the figures he listed for 400 points.

I will sacrifice 400 point named build for the nerf to all of the generic builds.

Even still, I'm going with this guy. While 400 may be a problem for names keyword teams, 500 should be alright, and it seems to be a pretty popular point total to play at.

[szude]

For those wondering, here is a chart of how many figures are needed for a theme team currently (old) and with the new rulebook (new)

GENERIC
Old New
300 3 3
400 4 6
500 5 6
600 6 6
700 7 9
800 8 9
900 9 9
1000 10 12
1100 11 12
1200 12 12

I don't mind this change, but the reasoning put forth is flawed, to me. The article said "for simplicity". How is 3,6,6,6,9,9,9,12 more simple than 3,4,5,6,7,8,9?

(I generally will approve of any rule change that is simpler as long as it isn't a huge deal, and sometimes even when it is)

[monwear]

I've been playing clixs for years, mainly 400 point games… If you can't make a generic theme team of 6 characters… You need to be slapped…

[T Rez]

I've been playing clixs for years, mainly 400 point games… If you can't make a generic theme team of 6 characters… You need to be slapped…

Not a single person here has complained about the new rules concerning generic theme teams at 400 pts. So I don't know who you are talking to.

[xxxhieixxx]

Personally as a player who builds comic accurate teams it doesn't really bother me. I like to use Teen Titans and I build them by the swarm lol. I don't do it for the PC's I do because I like the idea of some of my favorite characters who were on a team to be on a team when I use them. It's something I'll still do, I just won't get the same bonus as before.

And onto the wildcard thing usually when I build a team with wildcards I pick 1 ability and keep it until I lose that person. I always did that cause it was easier for me to keep up with.

[rowdyoctopus]

Ok, I will give you that one. But RowdyOctopus did make it sound like he was having trouble at the 300 point total. It is still very feasible to make many Avengers teams with any of the figures he listed for 400 points.

I want to use Thor and Cap on an Avengers theme for a 400 pt Modern Age build. I'm at 298 pts. So, in the remaining 102 pts, my options are:

37 AV059 Wasp
49 AV058 Quicksilver
35 AV057 Scarlet Witch
56 AV056 Hawkeye
50 AV049 Two-Gun Kid
55 AV031 Ronin
29 AV014 Stingray
36 SI057 Jarvis
70 SI004 Iron Fist
50 SI001 Spider-Man

There are other Avengers under 102 pts, however since I have to fit 2 figures on the team to get the theme bonus, using the cheapest piece available (Stingray) leaves you with 73 pts. These are all the Modern Age figures under 73 pts with the Avengers keyword left. Personally, I only own Ronin, Iron Fist, and SI Spider-Man from that list.

If I use Dr. Strange and Namor together, I have the same problem.

Now, as a player, I'd just skip the theme team at this point and go with figs I want to play, but that wasn't my initial point. My point was that it is much harder to make 400 pt Named theme teams with larger figures.

[SLVRSR4]

Rules be damned, I will keep making theme teams that are comic accurate whether I get theme bonuses or not. (which is business as usual for me)

[Kevin187]

I really like the new changes. The simplification of wild cards is nice, but the big surprise came with the changes to theme teams.
I have always despised generic theme teams, to easy to build for and not fun to play against (Oh Prof. Xavier is going to outwit me through Barry Allen, just like in that one comic... :cheeky: ).
The reduction in generic team theme probs is MUCH appreciated, no more Lian Harpers probing my army and no more 2 theme probs for so and so's 300 point martial arts theme team (Nightcrawler, AA Robin, Howard, LE Diana Prince, and Iron Fist).

Lol my Lian Harpers can no longer probe you. (that's hot?)

It's ok, you can say who that MA team belongs to. So it cuts me from 2 theme probs to 1, meh, i say.

[monwear]

Not a single person here has complained about the new rules concerning generic theme teams at 400 pts. So I don't know who you are talking to.

I think it's a little ridiculous that you need 6 generic characters for a 400 point generic theme team.

Not happy with wild card changes either.


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