Regarding Quasar: Is a double-TK attack possible?

[phonixinmi]

Noticing that Quasar has 2 range attacks and TK, can he make 2 telekinesis ranged attacks in the same turn?

If this is possible, would it also mean that the attacks would do damage based on the object's damage values (2 for light, 3 for heavy) and not Quasar's damage value of 1?

Judges, please advise.

[montecchi]

unfortunately you cannot use tk twice for an attack... check the wizkids board. i have been arguing that quasar should be able to pick up the dumpster and hit two opponents as the only way he could attack two people with one object (since the dumpster is never destroyed and usual objects are, to no avail).

[Bubblehead]

I never looked at Quasar with that angle. I don't know why not. Now we're going to have to petition on this.

[PsychoDBoy]

Yea I must also say I've never actually thought of that before....I think though that with all the other things that have the double attack such as incapacitate, energy explosion, mind control(!), they go by the characters range for the attack. For TK, you don't technically use your range for anythin, always go by the 10. So since lightning bolts are always associated with your range, I guess tha's why they don't come into play. Well, tha's the best reason I can come up with this late.

[skeevo666]

unfortunately, TK is a close combat action (so if someone has Flurry & TK . . .)

[Francesco_V]

Originally posted by skeevo666
unfortunately, TK is a close combat action (so if someone has Flurry & TK . . .)
From the rule book:

Telekinesis Super Power
To use an object as a weapon, give the character a ranged combat action, even if the character’s range value is 0.

So TK an object to attack is a ranged combat action.

[skeevo666]

but it's still starts as a close combat action (why do you think you have to be ADJACENT to the object/figure being TK'ed?) :D

[Talon378]

You are wrong skeev. whether or not the TK attack has to start out as adjacent to the object in question is completely irrelevant to the question at hand. It is a ranged attack. I just checked the Faq to make sure, and there is no clear cut guidance on this. If I were approached in a tournament with this situation, then I would allow it, as long as the figure in question started out adjacent to both of the objects Quasar intended to use.

In short, as far as I can see, multiple lightning bolts allows for multiple attacks with TK so long as you begin adjacent to each of the objects. You cannot attack, move, and attack again. Feel free to post anything that would dispute what I just said....

[skeevo666]

wizkids forum 01-10-2003:


eddiebrock4, Player

i have a question on telekenesis? I have a tournament on friday and i want to know if Quasar can telekenesis two objects since he has two ranged attacks.



WonderWarthog, Volunteer

No, he can't. That only applies to his regular ranged attack. If he uses TK he can only TK one object.

As per the PAC: "This character may use Telekinesis in order to use an object as a weapon."

:D

[Talon378]

still skeev, that ruling is not valid until it makes it into the Faq, as per Wizkids own rules. So, until it makes it into the FAQ, then it is up to the judge, and I would allow it. Nowhere does it say that the lightning bolts do not apply to all Ranged attacks. Furthermore, those sorts of arbitrary, contradictory rulings is the main reason I left Magic The Gathering. I would hate to stop playing this game because they decided to keep screwing with the rules as deemed appropriate that day.

After rereading the rules though, I can see where this ruling is coming from, even if it is more than a bit silly in my opinion.

From the rulebook:

"The number of lightning bolts is the maximum number of different targets your character may attack with a single ranged combat action. If a character fires at more than one target, you must draw a clear line of fire to each target. "

By using TK to manipulate two different objects, then you are actually making two actions, which is what they have said when they made that ruling. I still think it is ridiculous to think that someone that canb lift 10 tons with their mind can;t do two items at once. Seems like Jean Grey is often seen doing three or four things at once, and I know Graviton can do four things at once on a regular basis. I realize his power os gravity control, but in the game it would be little more than another form of Telekinesis.

I stand corrected.

[skeevo666]

Originally posted by Talon378

I stand corrected.



You can have a seat, no need for ceremony on my account ;)

[A_Higher_Level]

Well, you know... we judges aren't perfect. We're just overbearingly good-looking! :D

[Melkoloran]

Originally posted by skeevo666

You can have a seat, no need for ceremony on my account ;)

Too bad you weren't right for the right reason ;)

[phonixinmi]

For characters that are capable of only 1 ranged attack, I can understand why they'd only be allowed to use 1 object as a weapon as part of a combat action.

In Quasar's case, I would agree that he could only MOVE 1 object/figure per the rules for telekinesis MOVEMENT, but I feel that he should still be allowed to use 2 objects against multiple targets in a ranged telekinesis combat ATTACK because he has 2 arrows.

There's nothing in the rulebook or FAQ that says he cannot do so. If there is a clear explanation restricting this, would someone please provide?

Lastly, going back to the 2nd part of the original post, since the objects are being used to inflict the damage, wouldn't their values be used (2 for light, 3 for heavy) when applying that damage?

[skeevo666]

I'll take it nonetheless :D


(i was challenged by a judge to come up with something contradicting him)

[T_Darksoul]

For a little more backup.

From the Judges Forum at WizKids

"Double-A is right...so yes, Jean could bang a dumpster off of Sabretooth's head. As to the two+ target question, TK cannot be used to pick up two different items, and a single item may not be used on two different targets at the same time. In other words, no (and yes, it was answered before).

Chapeau"

That is how it stands for now.:)

[Talon378]

Originally posted by phonixinmi
For characters that are capable of only 1 ranged attack, I can understand why they'd only be allowed to use 1 object as a weapon as part of a combat action.

In Quasar's case, I would agree that he could only MOVE 1 object/figure per the rules for telekinesis MOVEMENT, but I feel that he should still be allowed to use 2 objects against multiple targets in a ranged telekinesis combat ATTACK because he has 2 arrows.

There's nothing in the rulebook or FAQ that says he cannot do so. If there is a clear explanation restricting this, would someone please provide?

Lastly, going back to the 2nd part of the original post, since the objects are being used to inflict the damage, wouldn't their values be used (2 for light, 3 for heavy) when applying that damage?
it is because the lightning bolts represent the ability to affect two targets with the SAME attack. It is not possible to use an object to hit two targets. You would have to use two objects, and that is why it just will not work. Once you pick up the second object, you are in fact starting a second action. It makes sense literally, but not in the spirit of the books.

[phonixinmi]

If using the 2nd object makes it a 2nd action, then would Quasar be able to use a TK attack on 1 target and 1 damage to the other target, per the multi-target rules?

If so, can a SHIELD agent increase the TK damage inflicted from the object and/or the 2nd target of the ranged attack (without the object)?

Please provide reference from rulebook or FAQ because I certainly couldn't find it...

[Lofcutus]

SHEILD and Enhancers can add to the damage of any ranged attack, including Telekenesis.

[phonixinmi]

I'm still not understanding how a 2nd target could not be attacked through Telekinesis if Quasar was adjacent to 2 objects. If it's declared that he's using a multi-target TK attack, using 2 different objects, on 2 different targets, it should be okay. For some reason, I'm not seeing how it COULDN'T be done with 1 combat action.

I understand the logic behind not being able to use 1 object to attack 2 figures. However, there's no rule stating that a TK attack overrules a figure's capability to use it's multi-target option from range, regardless of whether it's using 2 TK targets, or 1 TK and 1 non-TK target.

Lastly, if the SHIELD team ability applies to TK attacks, that means that a light object would then deal 3 damage and a heavy 4 damage, correct?

Still seeking help with this...judges?

[Tsannik]

phonixinmi..... I understand where you are coming from. It should be possible... except

There can only be one target/object in a telekinetic attack.

"The target figure or object may not be placed in blocking terrain. This character may use Telekinesis in order to use an object as a weapon." Marvel PAC

As [was] mentioned, the fact the target and object are singular, as well as that it mentions that a singular object can be used to attack ("an object"), all lead to the conclusion that Telekinesis may only have one target, be that figure or object.

Chapeau

The wording of Telekinesis in the PAC and the rulebook is what limits this power to only 1 object/figure per use.

Lastly, if the SHIELD team ability applies to TK attacks, that means that a light object would then deal 3 damage and a heavy 4 damage, correct?
And yes, the SHIELD/Enhancement would make objects do 3 for light, 4 for heavy.

[phonixinmi]

I guess that the confusion on my part was because it seemed that, even though the writers of the rules may have intended "an" to mean "1", it still seemed unclear that they meant "1 and only 1" no matter how many range attacks (lightning bolts) a TK figure may have been capable of.

Secondly, another part of the logic I was using in this debate was that I compared the possibility of a TK multi-target attack as being no different (capability-wise) than an Energy Explosion multi-target attack.

Lastly, for confirmation, does this now mean that Quasar could still do a multi-attack using 1 TK target (using an object) and 1 separate 1-damage target (without an object)?

Please advise.

[ASGDiamond]

Maybe the tk distinction is because when a regular multi-target attack is done, damage is reduced to 1. ie if Quasar attacks two people normally, his damage is reduced to one (well, it's 1 anyway, but there's no RCE then... better example would be Ultron attacking more than one person I guess: 1 dmg each instead of 3) For objects, you're doing 2 / 3 damage each attack, depending on the object size. Perhaps they thought this would be too much, maybe? I don't know heh. :)

[Tsannik]

Lastly, for confirmation, does this now mean that Quasar could still do a multi-attack using 1 TK target (using an object) and 1 separate 1-damage target (without an object)?

If I remember correctly....

It was determined that this could not be done. Basically a TK attack on one OR a regular attack on 2.

[Xanth]

Phoniximi - don't feel bad about the confusion. Unless Chapeau had specifically stated it, the discussion would still be there. I had pointed out to Chapeau when he made the ruling that the use of singular by itself shouldn't be used for the sole reasoning behind it. Energy Explosion uses singular in discussing the target but it can target multiple figs if the character has more than one bolt and TK uses the ranged combat rules.

I would like to see the ability to target more than 1 char with TK (using more than one object of course) but it should result in a points increase for the power.

Tsannik is correct that it was ruled you can't use TK range attack on one figure and use the normal attack on another in the same action

[superfreak]

But could Quasar throw a object AND an adjacent team mate/ opponant with one attack?

[Xanth]

TK works on one "thing" per action, either an object or character. The sole exception is Sinestro who can use TK for both attacks of his Multi-attack combat action.

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by Xanth
TK works on one "thing" per action, either an object or character. The sole exception is Sinestro who can use TK for both attacks of his Multi-attack combat action.
But that is truly 2 individual TK attacks since there are two attack rolls.

Quasar cannot make one attack on two targets by TK'ing an object unless he could 'split' the object in two, midflight. ;)

[autoconx]

well what if say, black panther and blob are adjacent to quasar,? he cannot use tk on both targets to push them away?,......it just seems like it should work..i mean the object hitting 2 guys in kinda far fetched but i think he should be able to tk both guys

[Tsannik]

Telekinesis can ONLY be used on ONE target, be that an object or a figure.

Telekinesis cannot be used with the Multiple Ranged-Target icons (lightning bolt icons).

[Funky Jett]

Originally posted by autoconx
well what if say, black panther and blob are adjacent to quasar,? he cannot use tk on both targets to push them away?,......it just seems like it should work..i mean the object hitting 2 guys in kinda far fetched but i think he should be able to tk both guys
You can only TK one thing at a time. Multiple lightning bolts mean multiple targets on ONE attack. So if Quasar was able to split an object or a firendly figure in half, then sure, he could do that. Ouch.

Sinestro's multi-attack is a different animal though. It is two separate attacks (one TK per attack, for a total of 2). There is a big difference between multi-attack and multiple lightning bolts.

[phonixinmi]

Hopefully the next FAQ will be updated (soon) to make these rulings official.

In the meantime, I'll play according to Tsannik's and Xanth's ruling and encourage my playgroup to do the same.

Although, I must admit, allowing for the double-TK attack would be pretty awesome (and would justify Quasar's cost-imo)...:D

[Xanth]

Originally posted by Funky Jett

But that is truly 2 individual TK attacks since there are two attack rolls.

Quasar cannot make one attack on two targets by TK'ing an object unless he could 'split' the object in two, midflight. ;)

Quite correct but I said per action and not attack.;)

[TheSpirit]

Just to throw a little curveball into the mix here...

If a figure had flurry and TK, they could TK two adjacent figures with the same action. Flurry allows two CC actions, including powers associated with CC (except CCE, as it doesn't work with anything). You could therefore move two adjacent figures (friend or foe) with TK (pending any necessary attack rolls, of course).

Note this is different from the two bolt range-attack-with-object concept previously discussed. Flurry works with CC actions, and throwing objects is a ranged combat action.

[Bubblehead]

I could be wrong..... but previously it was stated that TK is a ranged attack. So Flurry wouldn't work because it states the attacks have to be close combat. I think....

I'm going to push for Quasar's two TK attack though. It makes sense and it goes with the comics....same for Jean Grey and everybody else (if they have two arrows, of course!).

[Tsannik]

When using TK to move friendly or opposing figures away.... or to move objects...

TK is a Close Combat Action to be used against adjacent figures/objects.

When using TK to atack with an object... TK becomes a Ranged Combat Action.

To ensure simplicity, the TK ruling will probably stand.

[skeevo666]

ahhh, i knew there's be much more input on this when I awoke (D@mn I love this board!)


TheSpirit picked up on what I alluded to in my original post (Good boy :D !)


My main reference was the bold opening description line on the PAC for TK (Actually, opening lineS. This is the only super power that has 2 bold sentences describing it. Perhaps this is significant?)


Now Mind Control is almost the exact opposite. There it is described as a range combat action in the opening sentence

(which is why the big question over the upcoming Elektra: Assassin unique wasn't can she MC 2 targets, but do you add those targets together for her "feedback" damage?)

and then in the main body of the power description it is stated that it can also be a close combat action. The fact that a default range is supplied is further proof, just as the fact that you must be adjacent to your TK targets is further support that it is close combat (which can, once you've grabbed it, become ranged; I think this is where the second bold sentence comes into play . . . )




Interesting to note that if different source materials were the rules basis, you'd have different rules.

ForEx:

Star Trek Clix would have MC as only close combat (Spock mind-melding)

wheras Star Wars clix would have TK be either (Vader, Dooku & Yoda all pick up stuph to chuck at significant distance from themselves)

[montecchi]

so, could someone please tell me why the dumpster (which according to the rules sheet that comes along with the outdoor adventure kit is never destroyed, if memory searves) cannot be use with quasar for a double tk attack??? as long as both characters he is attacking are along a single 10 space distance (due to the tk 10 space max rule)... ie. rookie vulture is 8 spaces away and vet cyclops is 9 spaces away and both are within a line o sight of quasar... why couldn't quasar use the dumpster to bash the two over the head??? i mean it does state in the rules that if you make a double attack that your damage is reduced to 1 so unless you had some shield pieces around you you'd only do one click o damage to each figure. what is wrong with this line of thinking? could someone please let me know since every time i bring this up (several times in like the past 6 weeks or so) i'm aways ignored. i am a volunteer and would rule this to be legal if anyone thought to do it (since it would require both parties playing to agree to use the 3-d object figures per the rules o play).

[Tsannik]

A figure with Telekinesis and more than one Ranged Target icon (lightning bolt icon) can only use Telekinesis to affect one object/figure because of how Telekinesis is stated in the PAC and rulebook.

Chapeau, the rules arbitrator, has clarified that:
There can only be one target/object in a telekinetic attack.

"The target figure or object may not be placed in blocking terrain. This character may use Telekinesis in order to use an object as a weapon." Marvel PAC

As [was] mentioned, the fact the target and object are singular, as well as that it mentions that a singular object can be used to attack ("an object"), all lead to the conclusion that Telekinesis may only have one target, be that figure or object.

Chapeau

Because of this circumstance.... Telekinesis can only be used to affect one object/figure.

THIS is why Quasar cannot use one or two objects to affect two different opposing figures.

Need this be explained again?

[Spikor]

So the only reason Chapeau said that it can't be done is the singular "an". Even though every other description and example of a ranged power is also singular... and is still allowed.

Nice work... Really nice.

[montecchi]

gees Tsannik, no need to get short... 'Need this be explained again?' i just wanted my common sense sinario disproven through some other way than the rules which are from time to time changed. i used several other rules to show it was possible to change the one rule that was limiting quasar. a 'general' rule for sure (which searves to keep the game simple, i know) which seems to short change just this one character since he's currently the only figure with this problem (tk with 2 bolts). to change this, ... oversight, as i see it, would make quasar more playable but not massively overpowerful since many characters can cause 1 point of damage against multiple figures with EE (up to 9 if the EE'er is on elevated and for more than one click to several of those if the figure has say 3 bolts ie. vet boomerang, quasar would max out at causing 1 damage to 2 pieces possibly a little more if shield is involved)... this would mix up the pot just a wee bit with just the slightest of modification to the rules and would only searve to have more people buy the adventure (cha-ching for wiz kids) packs and try to use them just to make their opponents nervous and possibly not even use quasar. i think it would just searve to spice things up just a bit... since it would only effect 1 character.

[Tsannik]

I'm sorry if it seems I was a little 'short'...

You are right....and I want everyone to know....

There is no real reason that I can see as to why this couldn't be done. I do understand that other powers have similiar wordings, but are ruled completely differently....

I'm trying to tackle some of these issues, but I cannot have anyone constant asking the same question in the same thread tryign to get a different answer.

I'm already trying to clarify some things with Pulse Wave and some other entries. Believe me, I'm working very hard to get rewrites of the game that make sense. Mostly so I can make my job easier (which will make all Judge's jobs easier).

One thing at a time. For now, his clarification will stand. I'll add this to my list of stuff that needs to be looked at and endeavor to provide something better.

[phonixinmi]

for your assistance and attention to this issue. :cool:

[TheSpirit]

::charging to Tsannik's aid::

A multi-bolt attack occurs simultaneously. All figures are technically being attacked at the exact same instant (taking all damage together). Since it's physically impossible for the dumpster or any other object to be in two places simultaneously, you can't use one object to attack two people... even if you have two bolts.

How's that for an explanation?

[Tsannik]

To pre-emptively strike before anyone else can post reply to thespirit.....



That's a great explanation. We are aware of the issues if the TKer happened to be by 2 dumpsters. There will be no explanation, hopefully. I will hypnotize you to just accept the ruling for now!

:p

But I do like that explanation for 1 object/2 targets scenario and why is will not work.

[TheSpirit]

...and picking up two or more objects to use with a multi-bolt attack is also not allowed, as it requires one action per object. So you couldn't pick up two adjacent dumpsters and make a two bolt TK attack against two targets. That's too much to TK at once.

(Now, honestly, how many judges out there saw my name appear, and instantly grabbed for some aspirin? Didn't think I could ever defend a current ruling, did you?)

[montecchi]

think of it this way TheSpirit... the dumpster usually hits for 3 when thrown, being a heavy object and all... right? well, maybe quasar tk's it, or drops it from above, in between the two figures and that's why it only does 1 point of damage to the 2 figures...a glancing blow so to say...

i know, i know that means it wouldn't be in a full space when hitting but it would be in the air while being tk'ed and the user of the dumbster decides where to drop it anyway so he drops it in a square when he's done with it. i mean he should have complete control over the object while he has it tk'ed and within the LOS and 10 space limit, right? i mean if a shotter can shot diagonally between two figures(which are considered blocking terrain and if those two squares touch,which they do, how can you shot through ... but that's a whole other thread and something i don't want to touch since it whould have a very complexing result on LOS if changed) and hit someone 'behind' those two people as long as they are along that line then why wouldn't a tk'er be able to exactly place the dumbster where he wanted it as long as he had a clear line of sight on the two characters he was attacking and rolled over both pieces defenses. he still has to roll over both defenses to hit them so maybe he only hits one of them (he was slightly distracted or strained)or misses the roll entirely (he suddenly realizes he has gas right as he is about to move it into possition). it's still not changing the game in any great deal since, as i have said before, it onlyapplies to quasar. honestly, in theory he should be able to spin the dumpster like a top using one end as a central axis hitting everything in the 8 squares around it for partial damage if quasar where to be, say, on elevated terrain... well, even i think that's too much to ask for in the game since he only has 2 bolts (although it would be great in a comic). and you might ask... what's a dumpster doing on top of a building? ... maybe jean gray tk'ed it up there to him... or a better reply might be ... it's a game based on comic books try not to get too rooted in reality.

the weird thing is, i don't even like quasar and have only used him once, i just think that it's an over sight that should be corrected and would give quasar the distinction of being the only figure able to do such a thing (and even then, only under the most severe of circumstances) and that's something very few pieces can currently claim.
does it really mean that much to anyone to hold this from quasar? i mean, really it's not like it'd be changing anything that he doesn't already have... he can hit two people for 1 click each already, letting him use tk to do the same thing (unless wizkids allows for the full 3 to be done to both) only really searves as a distinction for quasar and a possible hindering terrain defense bonus for and from one of the characters he hits(which could come in handy ...).

[TheSpirit]

montecchi, there are two problems with your reasoning.

One, the "glancing blow" or "drops between them" concept. You realize with multiple targets they don't have to be beside each other? One could be 10 squares to Quasar's left, and one 10 squares to his right (or whatever his range is... I'm not lucky enough to have that figure). So how do you explain a "glancing blow" to two figures simultaneously who are 20 squares apart, with Quasar in between them? Doesn't work.

Two, the "it's only Quasar" argument. Sure, this only affects Quasar *now*, and only for a few clicks. But the game is still growing, and more pieces will be added - DC, Indy, and Marvel. What are the chances there will be another multiple-bolt TKer created? So then it's not just Quasar. You can't change the rules to suit one figure - the rules must be independent of them.

Multiple bolt attacks work with some powers (Incap and EE) but not with others (RCE, PW, and TK). It's the nature of the powers, a limitation on how they work.

Ask some of the others around here about me. I question the rules as much, if not more, than most. And I'll argue long and often if I feel a ruling is not clear, concise, and consistent. If a ruling is not logical, I'll fight it. This one, I don't fight. Because it makes sense (as far as anything comics-related makes sense, of course).

[drhypnotic]

TK is a Close Combat Action to be used against adjacent figures/objects.

When using TK to atack with an object... TK becomes a Ranged Combat Action

If Black Panter is in front (btb) of Jean grey and jean hits him with a dumpster is it a CC action? Does BP take 1 damage from Jeans str with 2 added from the heavy object? If BP is in btb contact with Jean but is standing in hindering terrain can she still hit him with the dumpster if he has stealth?


Thanks!

[azhael]

TK requires that you be adjacent to the object or figure you are attempting to move with the power, hence the close combat aspect of the power. Once you TK up the object, in order to use it against another figure it is a ranged combat attack, reguardless if you are in btb contact with the figure you want to smack.

Only characters with SuperStrength can use an object in a close combat attack to add to their damage.

If Black Panther is in hindering terrain with Stealth, even if Jean is in btb contact with him, she can not draw LOF to BP to use TK to smack him with the object.

[superfreak]

If a dumpster came flying at Me,after it knocked my block off,it wouldn't just stop!It would follow through!If Quasar swings that dumpster in an arc, it could hit 2 figures due to the fact that it's indestructable.Just trying to keep this alive:rolleyes: !

[Tsannik]

If Black Panter is in front (btb) of Jean grey and jean hits him with a dumpster is it a CC action? Does BP take 1 damage from Jeans str with 2 added from the heavy object?

When using TK to attack with an object... TK becomes a Ranged Combat Action.

So, even if Black Panther is adjacent, Jean Grey can use the object to make a Ranged Combat attack on Black Panther.

This is an exception to the Ranged Combat rules.

So, Jean Grey would do 3 damage because she is using a Heavy object for the TK attack.

If BP is in btb contact with Jean but is standing in hindering terrain can she still hit him with the dumpster if he has stealth?

Since using TK to attack with an object is a Ranged Combat Action (even when base-to-base), Jean Grey would need Lone of Fire in order to do this. Since Black Panther is Stealthed, this attack is not possible.

[montecchi]

thespirit... i'm not saying he should be able to hit 2 characters 20 spaces apart... i'm saying that if tk is being used as an attack then there should be a 10 space limit... meaning move it 10 spaces in one direction and thats it... if you can hit something in that ten space limit then it should stop there and if quasar is lucky enough to catch the flyer and the flyee with in that limit (next to one another) great, he's got two bolts and should be able to hit the both of them. i'm saying as soon as it comes in contact with a piece it stops it's movement, does it's damage (reduced down to 1 per if there are multiple tarkets) and bounces into a full square (i wouldn't want quasar to be able to hit people all over the board within the tk 10 space of the figure limit, that would require a major overhaul of the established rules and an infinity sign on quasars base instead of 2 bolts). i believe it would be a simple correction and hope that they would keep it just for quasar, i like characters that are in someway unique, power wise. and even though i wouldn't play him it would still make him 'cool' for the simple fact that he'd be the only one that could do that and hopefully wizkids would keep it like that. same goes for the upcoming elektra figure with her 2 bolt mind control ability, the fact that she's the only one who can do that makes her the sheezat! and although i doubt i'll ever put her in an army of mine i hope thay keep her unique in the fact that she's the only one who can do that. it's the unique combinations of powers and abilities that give color to this game and if you don't allow for certain colorful exceptions then you just have a bunch of shades of brown figures... there's only so many combinations that can be done within the given parameters... i'd just like to nudge those limits just a skouch.

[de4dp00l]

Originally posted by Tsannik


Since using TK to attack with an object is a Ranged Combat Action (even when base-to-base), Jean Grey would need Lone of Fire in order to do this. Since Black Panther is Stealthed, this attack is not possible.

But if she is using the object Panther is standing on, it's my understanding that she can use it to strike him with. I may be completely mistaken, however. I'll see if I can't find this in the rules.

[Tsannik]

You have to have .... Lone of Fire... Line of Fire at the declaration of your TK action.... Since BP is Stealthed, she cannot use the object on him.

[de4dp00l]

Originally posted by Tsannik
You have to have .... Lone of Fire... Line of Fire at the declaration of your TK action.... Since BP is Stealthed, she cannot use the object on him.

Yeah, I think I must've made that up. I have this weakness, it's called common sense, and it screws up my ability to remember Heroclix rules sometimes.

You can pick up the object a stealthed is standing on, and you can TK it, but you can't hit the figure who was standing on it because you can't see him, even though he obviously had to come out of hiding when you TK'd the object, because other wise he'd get TK'd with the object. Blech.

[DaLuvster89]

Tsannik seems to be seconds away from his wit's end! :)

Hang in there, pal! You are doing a stand up job.
I always appriciate the fact that you take the timer to answer everyone's questions as best you can.
Here - drink a Red Bull and get back into the fray!

[PantherPriest]

I believe that something needs to be done with quasar, as it is he is 30+ points overpriced as result of the change in the rce rules.

[Tsannik]

Red Bulls gives you wings....

I'm not at my wit's end today...

After I get some official rulings about some other stuff...

I'll tackle this one, also.

Most likely, the fact that TK can only affect one object/figure will stand. I don't think that this will change. There will probably be an Errata on how the power is worded.

I'm going home now as it's friday, sunny. I'm off work. Time to put the top down on my sporty car and try to pick up girls.... while on my way to my local HC tourney.... the two never seem to go together... :(

[urlmaker]

Originally posted by Tsannik
You have to have .... Lone of Fire... Line of Fire at the declaration of your TK action.... Since BP is Stealthed, she cannot use the object on him.

But could she move the object away from BP exposing him to the rest of your team? i.e. move the dumpster from under him.

[Brigadier M]

Originally posted by urlmaker


But could she move the object away from BP exposing him to the rest of your team? i.e. move the dumpster from under him.

Yes, she could.

M!

Edit: And when you pull that one on someone who's forgotten (or didn't know) you could, it's a beautiful thing:)

[Thorgrin]

after reading a few of the posts here, I just had to chime in and hopefully have this thread killed at one point...

You can't TK 2 objects, that's the ruling and that's it.

It's kind of like Barrier not needing LOS. Every other power or attack in the game needs it, but that one doesn't. That's the ruling and we just have to accept it.

This particular rule is the exception to the rule. Whether for good or worse, that's the ruling. *shrug* We should now just get along with our lives and await the all powerful SAVAGE HULK coming up. All hail HULK! :)

[weaponxtreme]

hey guys u got to remember one thing all of this say that the rule is this doesnt mean a thing because of this
wizkid can say you can do this or not do that on a board but
it mean nothing until that put in the faq
and this so called ruling that you can use double tk is not in
the new one or any faq i know am a judge too

so until then it still a judges call if you can or cant





and if anyone does it in a tournment i run i will allow it
until it states u cant in a faq


thanks
fear the x-men

[weaponxtreme]

hey guys u got to remember one thing all of this say that the rule is this doesnt mean a thing because of this
wizkid can say you can do this or not do that on a board but
it mean nothing until that put in the faq
and this so called ruling that you can use double tk is not in
the new one or any faq i know am a judge too

so until then it still a judges call if you can or cant





and if anyone does it in a tournment i run i will allow it
until it states u cant in a faq


thanks
fear the x-men

[Tsannik]

I appreciate your opinions. I really do.

But there is one thing you've got to know...

They aren't going to put everything in the FAQ.
It's just not possible.

The FAQ is already about 16 pages, and they want to make that even smaller.

All I've got to say is that I'm going to give you the best answer possible.

Wizkids says that this cannot be done. I do agree that there are some issues that need to be resolved, and it's something that I'll look into.

Does that mean the local Judge for you tourney cannot over ride this decision? Of course not, but he'd better make certain that all players know what deviations he will implement.

It's late. I'm a little toasty... I'll post more tomorrow.

[LuckyJ]

The venue I play at (I don't judge these) has specifically allowed this for two reasons:

1) there's only one fig, Quasar, who has 2-arrow TK.

2) he was shafted on the RCE rule change (the 1-6 damage to the +2 damage) and so they let him do it to give him more play time.

I am still not convinced that it's illegal. If I read this thread correctly, a judge on the wizkids site, not a wizkids employee, decided that the double target TK wouldn't work. That's really not a definitive ruling, though, is it?

[skeevo666]

Technically, I believe judges ARE wizkids employees ;)

[texaswashingto]

Can Quasar TK Spiral and Vet. Whirlwind up to someone to have bothe of them smack someone?