Rulebook 2011 - Combat Abilities [Archive]

WizKidsNECA

04/06/2011, 12:00

We’ve covered the exciting changes of the new HeroClix Core Rulebook and today we’re going to start taking a look at the new Powers and Abilities Card.
Combat abilities are abilities that characters are able to tap into through their combat symbols. The mapping of symbols to abilities has not changed by very much, although the combat symbols relating to Giant and Colossal characters got “juggled” a little in order to bring similar mechanics into one ability. [...]

[Read More on WizKidsGames.com (http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2011/04/06/rulebook-2011-combat-abilities/)]

switch21

04/06/2011, 18:23

Since they have loosened up Giant's ability to carry, why not just have Great Size include the carry ability?
Why make it only Giants can carry... colossals can't cause they're too big?
Why only carrying on a move action? Even though every other character in the game who has carry and running shot can do both at the same time, apparently, giants cannot.

Just make it easier and let carry be carry (unless a specific power changes it on a character card)!

Other than that, I really like the changes! No more arguing about what is taller!! I like that.

Jawapimp

04/06/2011, 19:11

So colossals still can't carry smaller figures... well, that makes no sense.

GreatArelius1

04/06/2011, 19:22

The change is Move and Attack is lame; already have -2 to attack and larger base, now range is cut.

ThwartHog

04/06/2011, 19:22

Giant Reach: This character ignores opposing characters’ Plasticity and adds 1 to its d6 roll when breaking away. When this character is given a move action it can use the Carry ability. When this character is given an action that includes a close combat attack, all squares within a range of 2 and line of fire are considered adjacent. This ability can’t be countered.

I noticed a change in the wording here. Now that LOF is required, does that mean that a stealthed fig that is 2 squares away, can not be targeted with a close combat attack by a fig using Giant Reach?

gawain

04/06/2011, 19:32

I noticed a change in the wording here. Now that LOF is required, does that mean that a stealthed fig that is 2 squares away, can not be targeted with a close combat attack by a fig using Giant Reach?

Nah, only line of fire to the space is required, not to the character.

teen team

04/06/2011, 21:04

I really dislike the change to move and attack, it was a good option Because you didn't have to half your range, but now half range and -2AV Really.

BigSoph

04/06/2011, 21:35

Why not simply say giants' and colossals' line of fire to giants and colossals are never blocked outside? You just keep going up until there is nothing in the way, apparently

This strikes me as odd

broodwarjc

04/06/2011, 21:56

I really dislike the change to move and attack, it was a good option Because you didn't have to half your range, but now half range and -2AV Really.

And you still can't do it when you are adjacent to an opposing character.

Falkenburg

04/06/2011, 22:36

Why, in the name of all that is sensible, do Colossal figures not also have the Giant Reach ability?

So, Surtur, who is a fraction of the size of, say, Apocalypse, can carry another character when given a move action, but Apocalypse, who is actually carrying two characters, can't carry more then a tune.

Brilliant.

Similarly, Surtur's stubby little sword can reach over one square to take a piece out of a non-adjacent figure, but the frost giant, with his honking great spear, cannot.

"But they can make ranged attacks..." All well and good, except for the aforementioned Apocalypse, who, when faced with a figure 1 square away, must charge them rather then being able to use the 4 clix of CCE he has. It's simply staggering that this figure would actually be able to make better use of some of his powers if he were "smaller".

Generation_Omega

04/06/2011, 22:58

I agree with alot of what people said before me.

Why don't they just let Giants use the carry ability? It makes it less confusing and makes way more logical sense. Why can a flier or transporter use charge, running shot, etc while carrying but giants can't?

For that matter, why can't Collosals carry? And why shouldn't they be able to make close combat attacks from 2 squares away?

Epic fail on the Move and Attack change as well. It was bad enough having the -2 attack, now you still get your range cut in half AND you still can't use it when adjacent to an opposing character. Good thing I bought that veteran Hawkeye for my Thunderbolts team off eBay.

IMO they whole part about in Great Size about lines of fire being drawn to and from it was very confusing and poorly worded. With they way it was explained I don't get why Loki can't shoot Surtur. There has to be a better, shorter way to explain that ability because it reads like an essay.

TimoSupremo

04/06/2011, 23:09

Boy, does this article sure ever make me glad that I only play in a home environment... >Yeesh<

Agreed with all the above posters.

jace beleren

04/06/2011, 23:17

a big boooooooo for the move and attack power. that added half range rule just made them more of a glorified carrier than an attacker. sheesh.....

mrclarkjkent

04/06/2011, 23:37

Colossal Stamina: This character automatically breaks away and can make ranged combat attacks against non-adjacent opposing characters when this character is adjacent to opposing characters. When this character has two action tokens, it can be given a non-free action. If you do, after actions resolve deal it 1 unavoidable damage and do not clear action tokens from it at the end of the turn. This ability can’t be countered.

Does this mean that when Starro, Imperiex, Galactus, Phoenix, etc have two action tokens and on the third turn they take a non-free action they'll take a click of damage? If so...lame!

GroovyBoy

04/06/2011, 23:54

Holy carp are multiple elevations gonna be confusing when giants and colossals are on the board...

aztek65

04/07/2011, 00:24

I really dislike the change to move and attack, it was a good option Because you didn't have to half your range, but now half range and -2AV Really.
Not only -2 but if adjacent to opponent you cannot break away. If you are calling it HSS than make HSS. I under stand the rule change when HSS was nerfed earlier in the era of vet Icons
Supes. But are their that many Uber powerful transporters being abusing M&A. None of the venues I've played are their many people abuse M&A. How about insted of -2 to AV -2 to range
Minimum 3 range. I agree with Teen Team these figs are no longer
as viable an option as before. I would also like add my disdain for this change. In M&A

Alcoholmist

04/07/2011, 00:33

Holy carp are multiple elevations gonna be confusing.

fixed that for you.

Alcoholmist

04/07/2011, 00:36

Not only -2 but if adjacent to opponent you cannot break away. If you are calling it HSS than make HSS. I under stand the rule change when HSS was nerfed earlier in the era of vet Icons
Supes. But are their that many Uber powerful transporters being abusing M&A. None of the venues I've played are their many people abuse M&A. How about insted of -2 to AV -2 to range
Minimum 3 range. I agree with Teen Team these figs are no longer
as viable an option as before. I would also like add my disdain for this change. In M&A

woah i didn't read that in the new description at all. it says that you cannot be adjacent to an opposing character when being given the power action, but I see nothing that says that during the actual action you can't dart in and out just like regular HSS.

Norb

04/07/2011, 01:45

Holy carp are multiple elevations gonna be confusing when giants and colossals are on the board...

With any fig on the board. I was going to start teaching my nephew how to play but now sheesh. I don't know I just don't know.....

y2schwabe

04/07/2011, 03:25

Wow, am glad I dont use move and attack much. Now I wont start.

Interesting changes for Collosals and Giants except for Collosals not carrying (actually makes SOME sense in a way) or Giant Reach (They SHOULD be able to CC from two , if not THREE squares away) .

Apoca

04/07/2011, 04:30

Great Size:This character may draw lines of fire (and have lines of fire drawn to it) as if the character occupied the elevation equal to or greater than the elevation it occupies, using the elevation level with the least restrictive line of fire.

can I now shoot opponent with stealth even if there is hindering between us but the opponent is not in hindering square?

nbperp

04/07/2011, 04:35

can I now shoot opponent with stealth even if there is hindering between us but the opponent is not in hindering square?

Correct. But please note the other posters only want you to see the bad side.

So, Surtur, who is a fraction of the size of, say, Apocalypse, can carry another character when given a move action, but Apocalypse, who is actually carrying two characters, can't carry more then a tune.

It's not that he CAN'T. He's freaking Apocalypse. He doesn't sully himself by toting his minions around - they are expected to get around on their own!

ahtitan

04/07/2011, 04:47

Correct. But please note the other posters only want you to see the bad side.

Tee hee!

filler

spworldtour

04/07/2011, 05:22

Greg

04/07/2011, 05:47

i dont really mind all of this.... but the different levels..... thats a whole different ball game.......

nbperp

04/07/2011, 06:16

I have 2 questions about the height issues brought up here and one about hindering terrain.

You explain why Loki cannot see Surotar, but what about Surotar seeing Loki? I presume the answer is no, and from a rules point of view, I guess I can understand it. However, it seems a little awkward to me, that a giant sized character would have LoF to someone on lvl 4, but would not be able to see the guy standing on the other side of a rock (blocking terrain). Am I reading it correctly? Or am I missing something?

Lines of fire are reciprocal (barring things like Stealth that specifically make one character hidden). So no, Loki can't draw a LOF to Surtur and Surtur cannot draw a LOF to Loki.

Next, as we currently have rules for 2 levels, I'll stick with that. If Sentinal Mark II is standing on lvl 2 terrain, one step away from an edge. Is his LoF blocked to everyone on lvl 1? (And if we say we have 3 lvls, would it be blocked to everyone on lvl 2 AND lvl 1?)

Both correct. In order to draw a LOF to a different elevation, all of the squares the LOF travels through must be the lower elevation (or lower). The only exception is the target square.

On hindering terrain, if there is hindering terrain between a 'normal' sized character and a giant sized character, who gets the +1 from hindering? Only the 'normal' character? Or do they both get it?

Neither. The normal character can draw the LOF to a higher elevation and the hindering terrain would not affect the LOF. The Great Size character can draw the LOF to the standard character from the higher elevation, also bypassing the hindering terrain.

it's only when the character (either) OCCUPIES hindering terrain that the defense modifier is guaranteed. Again, not all that different from now, except Great Size characters couldn't choose their elevation before.

Clixkilla

04/07/2011, 06:39

I like the fact that a giant/colossal can now blast another giant/colossal over elevated.

incredible

04/07/2011, 07:42

I'm just glad I've seen some calculus 3.

nbperp

04/07/2011, 08:27

I'm just glad I've seen some calculus 3.

And I'm glad that my years on the internet have made me immune to hyperbole.

UniqueLoginNamor

04/07/2011, 08:51

Yeah giant and colossal!! Boo move and attack. as if having 7 or less attack wasn't bad enough

Caff32

04/07/2011, 09:40

Lines of fire are reciprocal (barring things like Stealth that specifically make one character hidden). So no, Loki can't draw a LOF to Surtur and Surtur cannot draw a LOF to Loki.

Both correct. In order to draw a LOF to a different elevation, all of the squares the LOF travels through must be the lower elevation (or lower). The only exception is the target square.

Neither. The normal character can draw the LOF to a higher elevation and the hindering terrain would not affect the LOF. The Great Size character can draw the LOF to the standard character from the higher elevation, also bypassing the hindering terrain.

it's only when the character (either) OCCUPIES hindering terrain that the defense modifier is guaranteed. Again, not all that different from now, except Great Size characters couldn't choose their elevation before.

Why doesn't Loki just say that Surtur is on level 3 (or 4 or 5 or 6...etc) and then have clear LOF and from him? I don't understand what is different between this and the two giants in the next example where they could go to level 4 to get clear LOF.

nbperp

04/07/2011, 09:52

Why doesn't Loki just say that Surtur is on level 3 (or 4 or 5 or 6...etc) and then have clear LOF and from him? I don't understand what is different between this and the two giants in the next example where they could go to level 4 to get clear LOF.

Because Loki is not a Great Size (GS) character. He doesn't get to make any choices about the LOF from him. Since he's targeting a GS, he can choose any level of evention to that character, but his will ALWAYS be from level 2.

A line of fire from level 2 to level 3 will be blocked by other squares of level 3 terrain. In fact, a line of fire from level 2 to any level will be blocked by terrain that is higher than level 2.

So it doesn't matter where Loki targets. If he targets level 2, it's blocked. If he targets level 3, it's blocked. If he targets lever 1,435,769, it's blocked.

Now, if Loki were GS himself, it would be a different story. As a GS targeting a GS, not only could Loki choose the elevation level to his target, but he can choose the elevation level from himself. He can choose not to draw the LOF from his occupied square of level 2, he can "go up". He can choose to draw his LOF from level 4, targeting the GS at level 4. That LOF has no level 4 terrain blocking or hindering it (and if it did, Loki can go higher). So the attack can be made.

Hope this helps

Jarimy123

04/07/2011, 10:05

I'm selling my clix and playing competitive Monopoly.

One thing in life I'm glad I'm not - the rules arb for heroclix. I'm in no way wired to deal with this massive amount of #####ing.

nbperp

04/07/2011, 10:14

I'm selling my clix and playing competitive Monopoly.

One thing in life I'm glad I'm not - the rules arb for heroclix. I'm in no way wired to deal with this massive amount of #####ing.

Oh, I don't let this ####ing get to me.

I'm a big believer in the philosophy "beat your kids once a day, if you don't know why, they do; and you'll feel better regardless"

Folks should know, when they #### here, it just means I spend MORE time beating my kids.

:laugh:

Disclaimer: I do not beat my kids. That would be terribly terribly wrong.

A_Higher_Level

04/07/2011, 10:31

I would have liked to have Collossals have the same rules that Giants do, but also have the Collossal Stamina enabling them to take an action every turn. That would have been most ideal for me.

I do appreciate the simplified carrying rules for Giants and look forward to the additional changes in the upcoming rulebook.

Caff32

04/07/2011, 10:32

Because Loki is not a Great Size (GS) character. He doesn't get to make any choices about the LOF from him. Since he's targeting a GS, he can choose any level of evention to that character, but his will ALWAYS be from level 2.

A line of fire from level 2 to level 3 will be blocked by other squares of level 3 terrain. In fact, a line of fire from level 2 to any level will be blocked by terrain that is higher than level 2.

So it doesn't matter where Loki targets. If he targets level 2, it's blocked. If he targets level 3, it's blocked. If he targets lever 1,435,769, it's blocked.

Now, if Loki were GS himself, it would be a different story. As a GS targeting a GS, not only could Loki choose the elevation level to his target, but he can choose the elevation level from himself. He can choose not to draw the LOF from his occupied square of level 2, he can "go up". He can choose to draw his LOF from level 4, targeting the GS at level 4. That LOF has no level 4 terrain blocking or hindering it (and if it did, Loki can go higher). So the attack can be made.

Hope this helps

I think my head just exploded and I'm an attorney.

EDIT: After rereading it, I think I get it. It did help, thanks.

350s10

04/07/2011, 11:05

I hop the people that changed the rules read this thread. They need to know that they missed up big time on all of the changes. I think we are going to see some higher AV on up coming HSS characters. When the fig should have a 12 it's going to have a 14. Makes all the older HSS fig pointless. Don't think you are going to hit much when you have to drop your 10 AV to a 8.

Quebbster

04/07/2011, 11:16

spworldtour

04/07/2011, 12:45

NBPerp, I think either I misunderstood, or maybe I mis-typed so I'm going to ask again just for super clarity.

You said that a :g-starburst: sized Loki that is behind blocking terrain would be blocking to :g-colossal: sized Sentinel Mark II, as the LoF's have to be reciprocal. Okay, np I have that.

My last example, where I was talking about hindering terrain, I brought up multiple levels and I think I confused the issue.

In the same situation as above with: a :g-starburst: sized Loki that is behind hindering terrain would it also be hindering to the :g-colossal: sized Sentinel Mark II? Or is that different? And if it is different why?

I do get the bit on Colossal to Colossal or Colossal to Giant not being hindering, unless one of them is actually standing in it.

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, couldn't I actually target the foot that is NOT standing in the hindering terrain and then be able to shoot them without the modifier (or in the amazing case where a colossal had stealth, the same issue?) Or is that rule different now?

Otherwise, thanks for the quick response.

nbperp

04/07/2011, 13:11

In the same situation as above with: a :g-starburst: sized Loki that is behind hindering terrain would it also be hindering to the :g-colossal: sized Sentinel Mark II? Or is that different? And if it is different why?

:g-starburst: X :g-giant:

We've got 3 squares in a row. On the left, a standard character, on the right a giant. All 3 characters are on the same elevation (for example purposes, I'll call it level 2).

If X is clear, then the LOF is clear.

If X is blocking, then the LOF is blocked. Why? Because if you draw the LOF from 2-2, it's blocked by the blocking terrain. If you draw the LOF from 2-3, it is also blocked because any blocking terrain on the same elevation as the lower level causes the LOF to be blocked. If that sounds wordy or incomprehensible, think of it in terms of grounded/elevated terrain today. Grounded blocking terrain stops the LOF between grounded/elevated, right? Well, that's the same principle in play here.

If X is elevated terrain (level 3 or higher) then the LOF behaves like blocking terrain. Rinse/repeat everything I just said above.

If X is hindering, then the LOF is clear. Why? Same principle as the blocking terrain. Hindering terrain is ignored for LOF purposes when drawing a LOF between 2 elevations (except for the square the target occupies), just like it is now when you draw a LOF between grounded/elevated.

I do get the bit on Colossal to Colossal or Colossal to Giant not being hindering, unless one of them is actually standing in it.

Actually, while I'm thinking about it, couldn't I actually target the foot that is NOT standing in the hindering terrain and then be able to shoot them without the modifier (or in the amazing case where a colossal had stealth, the same issue?) Or is that rule different now?

That rule remains the same. A line of fire between 2 characters always happens between 2 specific squares. So you can target a clear square if one is available to you.

GroovyBoy

04/07/2011, 18:36

Oh, I don't let this ####ing get to me.

I'm a big believer in the philosophy "beat your kids once a day, if you don't know why, they do; and you'll feel better regardless"

Folks should know, when they #### here, it just means I spend MORE time beating my kids.

:laugh:

Disclaimer: I do not beat my kids. That would be terribly terribly wrong.

I never liked your kids...

MarcSpector80

04/08/2011, 13:59

Am I reading this right? does this mean you can not hypersonic away period when adjacent to a character or just hypersonic and RA?

nbperp

04/08/2011, 14:56

Am I reading this right? does this mean you can not hypersonic away period when adjacent to a character or just hypersonic and RA?

I'm not clear what you're asking about. Transporters - characters who can use the move-and-attack ability - are not allowed to be given a power action to activate hypersonic (through move-and-attack) when they are adjacent to an opposing character. This is no different from the earlier rules (or, in fact, the way transporters have ever worked).

350s10

04/08/2011, 16:12

No change has been made to Hypersonic Speed as far as I am aware.

I really miss read. I thought they were talking about HSS. When it was right there in the title Move and Attack. Silly me, I swear the older I get the more......what was I saying, ow silly me.

MarcSpector80

04/08/2011, 16:23

I'm not clear what you're asking about. Transporters - characters who can use the move-and-attack ability - are not allowed to be given a power action to activate hypersonic (through move-and-attack) when they are adjacent to an opposing character. This is no different from the earlier rules (or, in fact, the way transporters have ever worked).

Lol you answered my question just the same. Poor typing on my part.