View Full Version : ClixCast Ep. 80: 2011 Rules with Norm Barth (nbperp)
ibeatdrew
04/08/2011, 11:42
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=95&pictureid=7712Episode 80: 2011 Rules with Norm Barth! This week This week Steve and Gudda have a guest, Norm Barth and they discuss a lot of the major changes to the 2011 rules changes that take affect on May 1st! Get your ears on! P3a5de938ddc7fcdab326cccdff498b48Yl5wS1REZ2V8
American Dragon
04/08/2011, 12:58
Yay!
AmDrag
drax2099
04/08/2011, 13:13
Am i missing something or does the download not work?
ibeatdrew
04/08/2011, 13:14
yeah thats broke ill try to fix it
ibeatdrew
04/08/2011, 13:17
Am i missing something or does the download not work?
fixed sorry extra space in there.
drax2099
04/08/2011, 13:36
fixed sorry extra space in there.
Yayyyyy it's downloading! It's downloading!
Doing a little happy dance!
Getting stare across the room.
.
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It's downloading!
Finished download! Thanks! must now slink off to dark corner to listen to avoid stares. Too late! ;)
Perplexinator
04/08/2011, 15:24
The only comment I'd like to add is how I was disappointed to hear of the judging style at Heroclix World Championships 2010.
I have a history of judging for another game, Pokemon Trading Card Game. I've judged mostly smaller events, 30-ish people total in attendance, but have had the pleasure to judge at some of the largest events in the history of the game, in which each judge had close to 20-30 players to watch over in the first 7 hours of the tournament.
In Pokemon, the judges are taught to be active, to perform Active Judging, where if they see someone making a mistake, they step in and stop it, and try to rewind the situation to the best of their ability. I feel, and I think the higher ups that advise Active Judging also feel, that Active Judging is best for the health of an event.
Passive judging, or just waiting to be called on, is helpful, but will let many errors slip past. Once an error happens in the game, and Norm says this in the Podcast, after 2 turns, it's a game error and isn't going to be rewound.
I wonder how many errors happened at Worlds 2010 that, 1) Weren't reported, thus no penalties, and 2) Weren't caught by the players, who either didn't know they were playing incorrectly or just wasn't paying attention.
Judges have a very important job at events like these, and I think Active Judging is the best thing a judge can do. I hope that Worlds 2011 incorporates more Active Judging.
Nice podcast as always. It was definitely nice to have someone walk us through the new rules changes, big and small.
(FYI: Mjolnir is pronounced "myol-neer." Always bugs me.)
The only comment I'd like to add is how I was disappointed to hear of the judging style at Heroclix World Championships 2010.
I have a history of judging for another game, Pokemon Trading Card Game. I've judged mostly smaller events, 30-ish people total in attendance, but have had the pleasure to judge at some of the largest events in the history of the game, in which each judge had close to 20-30 players to watch over in the first 7 hours of the tournament.
In Pokemon, the judges are taught to be active, to perform Active Judging, where if they see someone making a mistake, they step in and stop it, and try to rewind the situation to the best of their ability. I feel, and I think the higher ups that advise Active Judging also feel, that Active Judging is best for the health of an event.
Passive judging, or just waiting to be called on, is helpful, but will let many errors slip past. Once an error happens in the game, and Norm says this in the Podcast, after 2 turns, it's a game error and isn't going to be rewound.
I wonder how many errors happened at Worlds 2010 that, 1) Weren't reported, thus no penalties, and 2) Weren't caught by the players, who either didn't know they were playing incorrectly or just wasn't paying attention.
Judges have a very important job at events like these, and I think Active Judging is the best thing a judge can do. I hope that Worlds 2011 incorporates more Active Judging.
I am happy to have this conversation. I see a difference between Pokemon (a game geared towards a much younger set of players) and HeroClix Worlds. I've discussed it before on 'realms and happy to do so again, though perhaps a different thread, I don't want Steve of Gudda mad at me for hijacking this one. :)
(PS - if you do start that thread, please PM me the link)
Norm, you mentioned you outwitted Cosmic Spider-Man flight. Though he's Power Cosmic. I always assumed you can't outwit Power Cosmic abilities. So you CAN outwit flight on a character who has the Power Cosmic/Quintessence TA?
Norm, you mentioned you outwitted Cosmic Spider-Man flight. Though he's Power Cosmic. I always assumed you can't outwit Power Cosmic abilities. So you CAN outwit flight on a character who has the Power Cosmic/Quintessence TA?
Power Cosmic/Quint protects the characters POWERS from being outwitted. Not its combat abilities.
That is good to know! Thanks.
twomas_rox
04/08/2011, 17:30
I must say that this podcast was very informational. I learned so much about the game today. Plus i like how you broke down all the rules.. I tried reading them, but the live explanation made it so much easier to digest. Thanks guys..
ibeatdrew
04/08/2011, 17:31
I must say that this podcast was very informational. I learned so much about the game today. Plus i like how you broke down all the rules.. I tried reading them, but the live explanation made it so much easier to digest. Thanks guys..
No problem and that was our intent...make them digestible and try to make some questions the average gamer might have about the changes.
fastcat99
04/08/2011, 18:12
Power Cosmic/Quint protects the characters POWERS from being outwitted. Not its combat abilities.
Oh, cool! That's a neat thing to know.
What a perfect use of the Podcast.
Thank you for inviting Norm to discuss the rules. Everyone should listen to this podcast if they want to get a better understanding of the rules.
Personally, my favorite change in the rules is the change to Leadership. It is simple enough of a change but really makes sense.
Leadership was wasted on high point characters but now at least you can remove an action token.
thanosstar
04/08/2011, 19:00
I am happy to have this conversation. I see a difference between Pokemon (a game geared towards a much younger set of players) and HeroClix Worlds. I've discussed it before on 'realms and happy to do so again, though perhaps a different thread, I don't want Steve of Gudda mad at me for hijacking this one. :)
(PS - if you do start that thread, please PM me the link)
not exactly true.my daughters to play pokemon and i do to help them. but most of the people we see at tournaments are 17 or older. rarely do my kids get to play more than 4 or 5 kids. the masters division which i believe is 16 and up always has had way more gamers than the younger gamers
Awesome podcast! I agree with the others; the verbal descriptions of the changes are much easier for me to comprehend then just reading them.
Something caught my attention regarding TKing objects to hit the "square" where stealthed characters are hiding. With the new rule, does that mean we also ignore the hindering terrain defense bump?
I thought it was an awesome podcast.
mermaidmurder
04/08/2011, 20:31
best podcast ever. u guys should do one podcast a month with norm to talk about any changes they may have took place in that month.
I LOVE THE NEW CHANGE TO BATTLE FURY (TAKE THAT NIGHTCRAWLER)
The podcast was great but I'm disappointed that Colossal characters can't do a close combat attack from 2 squares away like Giants can & that they can't carry anyone either! That makes no sense with the GSX colossal of Apocalpse because he's already carrying two characters(Cyclops & Jean Grey) but he can't carry anyone else!?!?! If colossals "can't carry" then why did Wizkids make a sculpt of him carrying 2 characters? I LOVE the change to Leadership!! Now its a good power to use with my Avengers!!!
That Leadership change will make my SHIELD team even MORE evil.
KillerSavage
04/08/2011, 23:48
The podcast was great but I'm disappointed that Colossal characters can't do a close combat attack from 2 squares away like Giants can & that they can't carry anyone either! That makes no sense with the GSX colossal of Apocalpse because he's already carrying two characters(Cyclops & Jean Grey) but he can't carry anyone else!?!?! If colossals "can't carry" then why did Wizkids make a sculpt of him carrying 2 characters? I LOVE the change to Leadership!! Now its a good power to use with my Avengers!!!
Well I don't know that he is carrying them so much as trying to crush them.
Something i'm surprised you guys didn't touch upon (unless I missed it)
can the older flash who has a phasing and HSS at the same time now HSS though walls?
wonderboy8917
04/09/2011, 01:07
Something i'm surprised you guys didn't touch upon (unless I missed it)
can the older flash who has a phasing and HSS at the same time now HSS though walls?
No, because Phasing requires a move action to activate and HSS requires a power action to activate. You can't give a character more than one non-free action in a given turn.
hclixinarcadia
04/09/2011, 01:15
best podcast ever. u guys should do one podcast a month with norm to talk about any changes they may have took place in that month.
I LOVE THE NEW CHANGE TO BATTLE FURY (TAKE THAT NIGHTCRAWLER)
or how about a youtube video explaining how rule(s) work? If done well, it could be a great marketing tool.
or how about a youtube video explaining how rule(s) work? If done well, it could be a great marketing tool.
I actually really recommend this. I know magic does this and it really helps to get new players in and clarify some rules questions that older players have.
grey_zealot
04/09/2011, 03:25
First clixcast I've had a chance to listen to in a long time, and it was good.
(Some one is really breathing heavily into their microphone, though. Makes it weird to listen to with headphones.)
Steelmage2000
04/09/2011, 04:19
I am happy to have this conversation. I see a difference between Pokemon (a game geared towards a much younger set of players) and HeroClix Worlds. I've discussed it before on 'realms and happy to do so again, though perhaps a different thread, I don't want Steve of Gudda mad at me for hijacking this one. :)
(PS - if you do start that thread, please PM me the link)
Steve of Gudda? I thought Gudda was a person. :cheeky:
hclixinarcadia
04/09/2011, 09:54
or how about a youtube video explaining how rule(s) work? If done well, it could be a great marketing tool.
I actually really recommend this. I know magic does this and it really helps to get new players in and clarify some rules questions that older players have.
zoiks, there actually already is a youtube video by NBPerp explaining some HCO maneuvers.... yeah! more of those and maybe an instructional video for beginners. And some common strategy/tactics for advanced players.
T. Paul Stiles
04/09/2011, 18:06
Nice work guys, as usual.
I do have one question regarding the TAs not being on the up-to-date PAC though...
So when we play a game these days, we bring our figs, their character cards, the up-to-date player's guide, the up-to-date PAC and finally the up-to-date print out of the TA's as well? That seem to me to be a whole stack of paper for a game that started out with "Everything you need is on the dial."
wonderboy8917
04/09/2011, 18:15
I like that Norm at least acknowledged that the playtesters discussed the outwitting when adjacent issue which doesn't make sense for comic accuracy perspective and even gameplay perspective (IMO). I just don't agree that it weakens Stealth that much if they had changed it. Stealth is too powerful period. If you can make a close combat attack against someone in stealth that means you can see them, so then you should be able to draw LoF to them with the various within 10 squares and LoF powers when adjacent.
Is it clear what camp I'm in? :cheeky:
Glen Quagmire
04/09/2011, 18:28
Nice work guys, as usual.
I do have one question regarding the TAs not being on the up-to-date PAC though...
So when we play a game these days, we bring our figs, their character cards, the up-to-date player's guide, the up-to-date PAC and finally the up-to-date print out of the TA's as well? That seem to me to be a whole stack of paper for a game that started out with "Everything you need is on the dial."
"Everything on the dial" was a good way to establish the game for the first couple of years. But it was mostly for marketing anyhow, and it wasn't something WK stayed committed to for more than a couple of years.
As far as what to take on game day, don't most people just leave it up to the judge to bring the player's guide? And that's going to have the PAC and TAs with it anyhow. It'd be a mess if 6 to 10 players were all bringing folders with the player's guide to our venue. Our judge might reference it twice per tournament, if that.
I do bring the PAC with me, usually. If there is only one rumored TA change this year, I'll just clip the TAs from the Blackest Night/Fantastic Four sets and keep them handy. No reason to toss those if the info on all but 1 TA is still good, I figure.
T. Paul Stiles
04/09/2011, 18:44
"Everything on the dial" was a good way to establish the game for the first couple of years. But it was mostly for marketing anyhow, and it wasn't something WK stayed committed to for more than a couple of years.
As far as what to take on game day, don't most people just leave it up to the judge to bring the player's guide? And that's going to have the PAC and TAs with it anyhow. It'd be a mess if 6 to 10 players were all bringing folders with the player's guide to our venue. Our judge might reference it twice per tournament, if that.
I do bring the PAC with me, usually. If there is only one rumored TA change this year, I'll just clip the TAs from the Blackest Night/Fantastic Four sets and keep them handy. No reason to toss those if the info on all but 1 TA is still good, I figure.
I guess what I'd like to see is TA's printed on the character cards a la Watchmen. Especially if they're pulling them off the PAC.
Glen Quagmire
04/09/2011, 20:38
TA descriptions on the cards would make sense, though they wouldn't always be practical. Wordy SPs would edge out the TA wording, or even cards for characters who have nothing but standard powers (Monica Rambeau).
Thank You NORM....Steve and Gudda. GREAT CAST!
Hof out
rollinsolo
04/11/2011, 14:05
Nice podcast again, these are always helpful.
Good show I got schooled but in a good way
Than0seid
04/13/2011, 03:15
The information was really interesting, but why were the levels so horrible?
One of the guys was kinda soft, one was kinda loud, and NBPerp went from whispering to screaming during a sentence. Was his mic on a carousel?
It made it physically painful to listen to.
BlueNocturne
04/13/2011, 13:21
Hey guys, great great podcast, thank you so much for explaining the new rules in such an easy manner.
On a side note, is there a page where I can download past clixcasts??
oddfellow
04/13/2011, 15:21
On a side note, is there a page where I can download past clixcasts??
I know you can get a ton of old Clixcast episodes free through itunes.
This was my first clix cast!! This is a pretty cool show. How did you guys get Henry Rollins to record a spot? :-O
ibeatdrew
04/17/2011, 18:34
This was my first clix cast!! This is a pretty cool show. How did you guys get Henry Rollins to record a spot? :-O
He's an avid Clix player and fan of the show....
I met him after a Spoken Word, told him we use his song "Up for It" for the intro to our podcast and I asked if he'd record a soundbite for me...he was down for that. It was pretty cool...Gudda didn't think I could get him to do it. HAHAHA.
He is not an avid Clix Player and has never listened to the show. :(
Oh man you had me going. :-p
ibeatdrew
04/19/2011, 22:33
Oh man you had me going. :-p
Awesome! I was hoping!
HeManClix
04/22/2011, 21:49
there's one problem with what he says about TK
I don't know if this is the right place to mention this but ...
you still have to make a "ranged attack" vs that guy who's in stealth. so as far as I understand you could wack the guy with the object he's hiding in but you couldn't hit him with it if he was hiding "in a bush"
let's say I'm hiding behind Foom's finger. you pick it up and grin victoriously. I shyly wave in embarrassment, and you give me the finger. oh it hurts
on the other hand: I'm hiding among the rubble created by someone breaking a wall. you pickup the finger with TK and try to put it whare the sun don't shine but you still can't see me (no line of fire can be drawn to me). just like any other AOE you can't target a square. you could however *place* the finger in the square that I'm in, & you could attack me with it if you could violate my stelth (superman/ultimates or various dudes who ignore stealth [harpoon & dr. strange assuming they had TK]) but that's it.
let's face it if bats wants to hide from GL in a pile of busted bricks he just dose; they don't even have to be gold bricks.
HeManClix
04/25/2011, 04:11
no takers... really? I mean I see that the new cast is up and I'm burried under 4 pages of glad-handing (not that I don't think an audio hi-light of rules changes is good). so if it's old hat already that's my bad but I have a real issue with a prominent (publicly sanctioned) rules interpretation.
cuz yeah as far as I know anytime we "make a ranged combat attack" we "must determine if the attacker can draw a line of fire to the target and if the target is within range." Likewise "If the line of fire is blocked, the attacker can’t make a ranged combat attack against that target." further more when stealth "appear[s] through the stat slot and [is] listed on its character card" "hindered lines of fire drawn to this character are blocked". and as we all know: "If the line of fire is blocked, the attacker can’t make a ranged combat attack against that target. Any line of fire that isn’t blocked can be drawn."
so please someone tell me how can you hit a dude in stealth with an object that wasn't providing him with the hindered line of fire or when some other feature or effect was hindering the line of fire. please. no pun intended; I just don't see it.
ibeatdrew
04/25/2011, 07:00
no takers... really? I mean I see that the new cast is up and I'm burried under 4 pages of glad-handing (not that I don't think an audio hi-light of rules changes is good). so if it's old hat already that's my bad but I have a real issue with a prominent (publicly sanctioned) rules interpretation.
cuz yeah as far as I know anytime we "make a ranged combat attack" we "must determine if the attacker can draw a line of fire to the target and if the target is within range." Likewise "If the line of fire is blocked, the attacker can’t make a ranged combat attack against that target." further more when stealth "appear[s] through the stat slot and [is] listed on its character card" "hindered lines of fire drawn to this character are blocked". and as we all know: "If the line of fire is blocked, the attacker can’t make a ranged combat attack against that target. Any line of fire that isn’t blocked can be drawn."
so please someone tell me how can you hit a dude in stealth with an object that wasn't providing him with the hindered line of fire or when some other feature or effect was hindering the line of fire. please. no pun intended; I just don't see it.
As this is not a rules forum and I believe Norm is on vacation this week could lend to why your question is not being answered very quickly. I do believe this is something they were going to look into. I am not a RA or Rules Deputy so I can not "rule" on it. I see it going both ways.
No you can't target the figure, but how can I place an object under you? It makes sense that the object would hit you, since it is my turn, the only thing that would allow for evasive action would be a supersenses/mastermind/impervious. In makes sense although it's not worded, to think of it like it's a non targeting attack. Your in a bush, stealth, I am putting a boulder in the bush cause that's where I want it, you happen to be in the way. I am not targeting you, I am targetting the bush to put my boulder there. Cause that's what I do, move boulders around.
Again I am not a RA or Rules Deputy, I am just calling this the way I see it and the way I break it down. Please visit this thread currently closed but it is some interesting reading on the subject while we wait for a clearer answer:
http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=312725
For a firmer, more clear and "Legal" ruling.
HeManClix
04/26/2011, 00:18
thanks for the link.
as I said I wasn't sure if this was the right place to ask for a rules discussion, and never meant to to scare off folks who wanted to cheer you all on (I played it four times and would love for you guys --or others-- to get in deapth and page-by-page on the whole rulebook).
that idea of a vid on you-tube (or elseware) that'd be awsome!
thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.
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