Appearently Marvel is tired of getting my money

[Rynth]

I buy 4 marvel books regularily: Exiles, Spider-Girl, Agent X, and Ultimate Spider-man. Today I found out two of them, Spider-Girl and Agent X, have been cancelled after their 61st and 12th issues and Exiles, like Spider Girl and Agent X, is one of the 13 books whose price was increased to avoid cancellation so who knows how much longer it'll be around.
I'm not shocked that Agent X is cancelled. There was an obvious decline in quality the very first issue after Gail left, and I think it'll only get worse. Hopefully thay'll be able to end it respectably.
Spider-Girl has dodged the axe afew times, but something feels more final this time. It just barely broke She Hulk's record for longest running female title at Marvel. And given how Marvel has been "supporting" this book(I've never seen ads for it, and there were no plans for any TPBs) I think they decided it was good enough to break the record, but not by any sizable margin.

[Spookythecat]

There was a Spider-Girl trade.

But it saddens me that it got cancelled as well. Not that I read it, mind you, but it kept the people who like 70s style Marvel Books happy, and showed that Marvel hasn't completely lost touch with the past.

[Zekeup32]

Theres plenty of good books out there to read if all your favorites get axed. Ultimate Spider-Man will be around for a while, and if you like that I would recommed other Ultimate books, except fro team-up, those are pretty ####py, but Ultimate X-men and the Ulitmates are both well written with good artwork.

[The Giantsquid]

I know how you feel about Marvel, I had to give up on the X-Men titles when they went ultimate. They drastically changed everything about the characters from one issue to the next with no explanation other than "6 months later...". What ever happened to the evolution of the character? In the past if you wanted to make changes you used a story arc. I'm not opposed to changes but I'm insulted by the lack of effort in the transition. Any idiot can push the reset button, but it takes a real writer to advance a story line. Good luck finding new titles.

[Batman1983]

Strazin... anywho (or how as in "how is that spelled?") hes the bestwritter they've got right now on their big titles (Amazing Spiderman). The only other good read is Black Panther by Priest. It should be a big title, but you know marvel... GM is doing a good job *snicker* if he was writting Ultimate Xmen (then this riot story arc would rock) his take on the classic Xmen just doesn't fit. & the manga Uncanny is kinda weird. it looks cool, but not for an xmen title. guess we can't have Jim lee art with Claremont tales forever. we can dream.

EDIT: added the word forever.

[Druzil]

I've been collecting comics a long time, and I've had to see some of my favorites go too. Be glad they are just cancelling them instead of putting progressivly less talanted writers and artists on them until you can't even stand to read it anymore. Marvel used to do that a lot.

[AdamWarlock]

There are plenty of great Marvel books out there right now that I bet you've not tried.

X-STATIX / X-Force is Marvel's best book on the market. It started off as X-Force #116 but relaunched almost a year ago as X-Statix #1 because it annoyed the old X-force (which has effectively been cancelled) fans. Superheroes as image-obsessed pop icons; a great concept played out with wonderful storytelling and incredible characterization which you all value so much :-)

Other good Marvel books:
Amazing Spider Man (starting with #30; J. Michael Straczynski, the bastard, broke my vow to never buy another spider man title. I hate him because he's made me love it)

Daredevil (all runs on it since its relaunch have been great; but most recently Bendis' start at issue 26)

Alias (Marvel's 2nd best series; another Bendis one. Hilarious, touching, exciting, and dirty. Everything you could want.)

Hulk (Starting back at #34. Bruce Jones is doing stuff that's taking Hulk in an entirely new direction; he hardly ever even becomes hulk anymore. Its slowly developing, but to those of us with patience it's called "pacing".)

I know it hurts when your favorites get cancelled... I hate Dc for axing "The Spectre" and i STILL lament the passing of Marvel's "Warlock & The Infinity Watch" after 8 years or so... but we must move on. There's no swaying sales on our own without buying a million copies of each issue. It's not like there isn't a ton of other stuff on the market, though. Dc Vertigo's "100 Bullets" is an amazing title and a VERY-indie series called "Amelia Rules!" is the most delightful thing in existence :)

[drop19]

Avengers has been great so far with Geoff Johns as writer and looks to really kick into high gear tomorrow with the first Oliver Copiel issue. Very classic style Marvel without seeming out of date or repetitive.

Daredevil is quite possibly one of the most mature and intelligent superhero books around. The pacing is extremely slow but each storyarc builds towards a strong conclusion. I'll trade characterization for big fights anyday.

New X-Men is a book that everyone seems divided on that I respect and enjoy. For the first time since the late 80s someone is actually trying to achieve something in a mutant book other than telling the same stories in the same style with only the most superficial changes to give the impression that there has been some sort of development of character. No more issue after issue of the played out Remy/Rogue love affair. Gone is the constant talk of an impending war with humanity that never happens. Gone are the ubervillains like Sinister and Bastion and Onslaught who perpetuate more of the same. For the first time in a long time we see a school training students to grow as people, not just to take part in some task force that fights with bad guy task forces. For the first time in as long as I can remember the X-Men actually feel relevant.

[pyr66]

THEIR CANCELING AGENT-X WTF?!?!?!?!?!:angry: :angry:

[TychesCoin]

Marvel's never impressed me with their ability to sell good books. They really seem limitted to their established popular characters when it comes to big sellers. Exiles is good, black panther is good, but they don't seem to be able to really develop a hit. Mostly looks like they just try to keep the numbers up on the big books (x, spidey, avengers) and hope something else just catches on. Lately their strategy seems to be the more #1 issues they can put out, the better chance they'll find something that will take off. Its insane Course DC may work the same way when it comes to their mainstream stuff, can't say for sure never read much of it.

AS far as other marvel books go, I have enjoyed most of the ultimate universe, Alias is good stuff. But more of my reading list has moved elsewhere. Primarily DC's vertigo line and a a failry random collection of stuff from other sources.

[bizarrome]

I know how you feel. I gave up on Marvel almost completely except for Avengers and now it is gone to the dogs as well. So no more marvel for me except maybe a Masterworks Hardcover now and then. The funny thing is I am reading seven titles now from DC: JSA, Power Company, Batman, Flash, Hawkman, Green Lantern, and Superman & Batman: Generations III. I was a big DC fan in Grade school and then a big Marvel fan in Jr. high and in high school it was about even. a few years after high school I found I was mostly reading Marvel. Now I don't read Marvel at all anymore because of two reasons.

1. They really don't care about what is best for the long run or how their customers feel and think. Example: two years ago they were publishing a book called X-Men the Hidden Years. This title trancended the old series reprint era and connected the histories of the original and first new teams of the X-Men. Writer/Artist John Byrne from the glory days of the X-Men was writing and drawing this title. He was five issues short of completeing an issue for issue replacement when they cancelled it on him. He had to wrap up story lines and drop his final arc because of it. And the book was above their sales quota to maintain the book. So since they did not recieve major amounts of influx of new readers when the X-Men movie came out, they cancelled it and a few other X-Titles. The problem was they killed a profitable book because their overall sales didn't look they way they wanted it. Many, many fans (including myself) wrote in and John Byrne's editor had to beg them to get two more issues to go to print to complete the storyline and not leave the fans hanging in the middle of a story. So they don't care about you or I, or any other reader or collector. They just want your money and they will do any kind of marketing ploy to up sales temporarily rather than work on their product. The last few years for Marvel has been rehash, rehash, rehash, recreate, recreate, recreate... (A quote from John Byne. "Cancelling a profitable book in a failing market is commiting cooperate suicide." They filed for Bankruptcy since then too.)

2. I don't like the ultimates and they are moving their whole line towards the ultimates and they don't care what the older fans/collectors think. I have read Marvel comics since around 1973 or 74 and the age six, and I have given them a great deal of my time and money up until this month as a matter of fact. And their attitude towards people like me is: We don't care about your versions of the characters we are cancelling them and putting out a new one as an ultimate. Again, their attitude towards their customers as a whole is here is our stuff. Buy it and shut up. So I didn't go away mad... I just took my money to DC!!

After all DC doesn't recreate their characters in spite of their customers, they keep the old versions and bring in a new one. Example: you can read the JSA and see Jay Garrick the Golden Age Flash and his compatriots, or the Flash and JLA and read about Wally West and his commrades of the Modern Age, and Barry Allen the Flash from the Silver Age made the ultimate sacrifice and is honored by both....

Now that's my idea of ultimates...

[Batman1983]

I agree Bizarrome. point one is exactly why I only buy the Amazing Spiderman TPBs.

Drop19 wrote:
New X-Men is a book that everyone seems divided on that I respect and enjoy. For the first time since the late 80s someone is actually trying to achieve something in a mutant book other than telling the same stories in the same style with only the most superficial changes to give the impression that there has been some sort of development of character. No more issue after issue of the played out Remy/Rogue love affair. Gone is the constant talk of an impending war with humanity that never happens. Gone are the ubervillains like Sinister and Bastion and Onslaught who perpetuate more of the same. For the first time in a long time we see a school training students to grow as people, not just to take part in some task force that fights with bad guy task forces. For the first time in as long as I can remember the X-Men actually feel relevant. (end quote)

this almost justifies what GM did, but I still don't support it.

[bizarrome]

this almost justifies what GM did, but I still don't support it.

Huh!?!

[Batman1983]

the change to the xmen. his explanation almost makes sence. It almost gives an excuse for the drastic change on the title. But I can't support it.

[drop19]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by change here. There has definitely been a move away from the more traditional set up/fight/resolution style of the previous two decades. Some of the characters changed in ability and personality pretty quickly.

In the spirit of discourse and all I'm just sort of curious what thing that Morrison did that you can't support.

And regarding the Hidden Years book, it was very ridiculous when Marvel cancelled that title. The decision was reminiscent of Carlin cancelling the healthy JSA book from the early 90s because he didn't want books featuring "old" characters published. A publisher doesn't owe their fans anything, but when a title is selling well and doesn't hinder any other title it seems ridiculous to cancel it.

[GSInc]

Wow, bizarrome's issues with Marvel really come close to my own. I grew up a HUGE Marvel fan, but have had to watch my interest wane over the years, especially recently. I got back into the X-titles in late 1999 (formerly my favorite books for 10+ years) with the promise of a wrap-up to "The 12" storyline. And all was well... until Claremont picked up the books again. EEEEEEEEEEEEEwwwwwwwwwwww. Then the "Semi-Ultimates" come along, and I gave up the titles completely. For Marvel(while I still love the characters), the Avengers is my book of choice, plus a few well-selected minis (Johns' Thing mini was excellent!). But in the last 3 years, I've moved to the Distinguished Competition. The rest of my monthly habit is almost all DC (well, plus Dark Horse's Star Wars books): Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Aquaman, Batman, JLA, JSA and Birds of Prey. The characters and stories are infinitely more interesting, in my opinion. What was the main thing to drive me away from Mighty Marvel?

The ####ed Ultimate crud.

Like many on this thread, I blame the Ultimate line for my dissatisfaction with Marvel. I get so tired of reading garbage like:

"Ultimate books stay TRUE to the CHARACTERS." Who buys that line of tripe? Hulk screams "HULK HORNY!" instead of "HULK SMASH!"? Not the real Hulk. Thor is a burned out pothead> Not the real Thor. Wolverine is so jealous of Cyclops that he leaves Scott for dead? Not the real Wolverine. So on, and so on...

"Well, DC did the same with CRISIS, so where's the problem?" The problem is that CRISIS was vastly different from the Ultimate line. Crisis fixed holes in the continuity for DC; it didn't create a NEW continuity alongside the original. The post-crisis DC universe was esentially the same; the characters were not vastly changed.

I don't understand Marvel's thinking; I never have. If a book or series of books isn't selling, FIX IT! Don't abandon it or "relaunch" if it's not necessary. Some people claim that the real talent at Marvel is on the Ultimate books. WELL? Move that talent to the REAL Marvel books, and watch those books (and sales) improve.

Wow, this was long. :p Thanks for reading so far, if you actually did. I feel better.

[Deadfish]

The only Marvel I regularly read is the FF and their spinoffs and the "Ultimates" (its self: not -spidy or X anything) I've been reading marvel since FF#5 and Spiderman #3 (yea, in 1964-the oldest comic I still have that I bought is a 10cent Dell "Rio Bravo") and in the late 60s read all the marvels (I still have chunks of the FF #44 thru52 and Spidy #30 thru 33, lots of Ironman {Tales of Suspense} and GiantMan {Tales to Astonish} and Uncany X-Men #1thru51,#52 thru 66-the first time they got cancled). Now I read more indys: Usagi Jumbo, Hellboy, A Distant Soil, Boneyard, Dork Tower, Dogwitch...
Most of the Marvel stuff has changed so much (and spread out so much-how many mutant titles are there?) that I just can't jump in and get any enjoyment out of them. I do like the mew take on my old favorite in the Ultimates and the FF are like family.

[Quasarswill]

Me personally think they should just change the name of Marvel to Ultimate because i got tired of them only having a small band of heroes any more if u go the Marvel.com u look at the bios there might say 40 -50 in there and they seem to be mostly concentrating on the ultimates and i think if they just cancel all the other books and just start over with the heroes they would get a lot more people to come back to them i know a person who owns his own comic store its where we play heroclix mk mw and magic yu gi oh etc he admits that he hardly sells marvel anymore and dc as well except for the ultimates oh well any way thats my 2 cents thanks

but im still a mmm make mine marvel

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by bizarrome
And their attitude towards people like me is: We don't care about your versions of the characters we are cancelling them and putting out a new one as an ultimate.

They cancelled: Amazing Spider Man, Peter Parker: Spider Man, X-treme X-men, Uncanny X-men, New X-Men, Wolverine, X-statix, Weapon X, Avengers, and Daredevil and nobody told me? Oh well. I geuss Marvel does hate us all.

[Mr_Boo]

get used to it...I was crushed when they canceled most of my favorite titles...I stopped buying comics in 1995 (started buying them in 1982)....my favorite comic book was "on a pale horse" by pierce anthony, drawn by okomata...6 issue limited series ...took 2 years to release the first 5 issues....company closed before they released issue #6

when Green lantern (NEW SERIES) Hit issue #50 and that total idiot Kevin Dooley destroyed the corp, killed kilawog, made guy gardner powerless and hal went insane. I had just started reading it at issue #1...so I decided to live in denial and and go back and start buying the original series of GL and read an issue a week for about a year before I stopped reading all together....ahhh but in the world I lived in there was still a corp, hal was still the GL and there was no kyle...

so live in denial, buy back issues and stop paying for new comics

Good Luck
Mr Boo

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by GSInc

Like many on this thread, I blame the Ultimate line for my dissatisfaction with Marvel. I get so tired of reading garbage like:

"Ultimate books stay TRUE to the CHARACTERS." Who buys that line of tripe? Hulk screams "HULK HORNY!" instead of "HULK SMASH!"? Not the real Hulk. Thor is a burned out pothead> Not the real Thor. Wolverine is so jealous of Cyclops that he leaves Scott for dead? Not the real Wolverine. So on, and so on...


First if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's really the best solution. I don't like Black Panther, so I don't buy it. I don't say I won't buy Marvel comics because this one book (or in your case three) is causing me dissatisfaction.

Ultimate books are just what if's really. They are different takes on old charectors. Why hate them for that? Ultimate Hulk isn't supposed to be MU Hulk. Same goes with Thor, Cyclops, and Wolverine.

If you don't like them that's cool, but don't say they ruin your enjoyment of the company.

[GSInc]

If you don't like them that's cool, but don't say they ruin your enjoyment of the company

Well, it's true, so what else should I say? Allow me to elaborate. I feel that the success of the Ultimate line is unfortunately bleeding into the other books, causing them to be written in a more "Ultimate" style. New X-Men is a case in point. I can detect very little difference (as others on this thread have mentioned) between that book and the Ultimate X-Men. It seems to be happening, slowly but surely, in other Marvel books, as well. Besides, it's MY opinion, so I'll say what I think. If you don't like my opinion, great, but don't presume to tell me what to say.

Plus, the talk that's been bouncing around about Marvel considering abandoning the original books for an all-Ultimate roster is a bit disheartening. Plus the pressure others in the industry have been placing on DC to follow suit. Thank the gods that DC is choosing to stand by their core universe.

Believe me, I don't need to be told the old "don't like it, don't buy it" chestnut. That decision was made long ago. But I still fear that the almighty dollar and new, "hipper" readership (supposedly) drawn in by the Ultimate line will cause the originals to be left for dead by Marvel. Marvel Comics and I have too much history to see something like that happen. And I'm very pleased to find some like-minded people here in the Forums to discuss this with.

[They are different takes on old charectors. Why hate them for that? Ultimate Hulk isn't supposed to be MU Hulk. Same goes with Thor, Cyclops, and Wolverine.

Pardon my edit, but I forgot this the first time. I guess my main issue with these "reimaginings" or whatever Marvel is calling them this week, is that they bear so little resemblance to the original that I don't see how they can qualify as a "different take on an old character." If you give Superman a big gun, a ZZTop beard, a mohawk, make him Hispanic, change his costume to lime green and give him a bad attitude and no compunctions against killing, is he still Superman? Where is the line drawn? Why not just invent NEW characters to tell these stories instead of creating so many new, barely related versions of the originals? I realize my example is extreme and ludicrous, but that's the point. If the fundamentals that make the characters great are to be changed so drastically, just create something completely new.

[The Giantsquid]

I don't enjoy the ultimates, and I don't but them. I have been stocking up on back issues and exploring DC much like the others on this thread. If you don't understand what we mean when we say that the ultimates have ruined our enjoyment of Marvel comics...well I'm just not sure how to explain it any clearer. You read a seeminly never ending novel for decades and one day the novel is replaced with something drastically different. It's only natural to be disappointed. It's just that simple. We will all get over it eventually but I for one reserve the right to complain.
I understand where the Green Lantern fan is comming from, I collected Excalibur from issue one only to watch it die a slow horrible death when the original creative team left in mid story arc. In my world the story that was the X-Men came to an end prior to the ultimate story line, and this is the way I will remember Marvel. My Hulk doesn't shout about being horny, my Cap. doesn't kick people in the groin, and did I just read that Thor is a pot-head? :disappoin
Just like the age of apokolips I will consider this an alternate timeline and never part of continuity.
In the meantime I recommend Green Arrow and Birds of Prey. Also Wolverine's solo book has yet to go ultimate (completely) and I am still sticking with this marvel title.:cool: for now anyway.
-Good luck to those in search of a decent title...for now, make mine back issues!

:confused:

[Tarnish]

I read marvel from about Uncanny X-men#130 on till around X-men #300. And the last few years I was mostly just hanging on from habit. I think it was just boredom from repetition that killed it for me. How many times can you read the new "Ultra-Cool-character-with-a-mysterious-past" storyline? Nothing changed and the changes that did happen were anoyyingly handled. I actually like the Ultimate books just because I've given up on most Marvel stuff. I wouldn't like reading the old stuff treated like that (as many say the GM X-men does) but I can enjoy it for what it is. The only 2 comics that really mater to me anymore are the new runs of Fantastic Four and The Legion. A simple test for me on how good a book is do characters that have been together for years and years actually seem like they have? Those 2 books are about the only two that really pull it off INMHO. Reed and Sue actually seem married, people in the Legion seem like buds. None of this "great respect among comrades" stuff that you get often in Avengers or X-men. I never read an issue of Avenegers that made me feel like any of the characters would hang out and maybe have a beer on the weekends.
Ok my long ramble is over.

Tarnish

[Tarnish]

You read a seeminly never ending novel for decades and one day the novel is replaced with something drastically different.

I think that was my problem actually. I read for 15+ years and eventually I longed for an ending, a resolution. The "never ending story" just served make it all seem less important to me. Any major change/death/revalation was only good until the next creative team came along. How many times can they kill Magneto before people stop caring? Nothing seemed permanant and slowly I lost any abillity to connect to the characters.

Tarnish

[drop19]

It's funny that Tarnish mentions Legion, as this is the title/group that I usually point to when the discussion of continuity and changes in tone come up. I've been reading comics for 22+ years now, pretty much since 1980 or so. Couple that with back issues I bought when I was younger and I've got stuff dating back to the mid-70s. Reading for this long has taught me that there is no such thing as a sacred idea in comics and every single title will change over time. I've seen Marv Wolfman's Teen Titans set the market on fire then crash and burn. I've seen Legion shift in tone so many times I can't even begin to keep track. The Batman I read about 20 years ago was drastically different from the Batman of 10 years ago, and the Batman of current books.

Marvel is no exemption to this either. Captain America has given up his shield in disgust and called himself Nomad, he's been kicked out of the role and replaced by John Walker, now we are finding out there is more to his origin than we knew originally. Spider-Man went through some really dark stuff in the McFarlane era only to be followed by bash-em type stories from Erik Larsen. Imagine how fans of the original X-Men series felt when they picked up Giant Size #1 and X-Men #94.

I'm not trying to tell anybody that they can or can't be upset when a new creator comes along and creates a fresh look at a character. Just try to remember that there are virtually no characters in the industry who haven't been through some major changes and revisions over time. The current run on X-Men or Hawkman or Iron Man might not appeal to you, but to some people out there this will be the definitive version of the characters.

[The Giantsquid]

I can understand your lack of interest with the never ending story. I guess what I'm saying is wouldn't it have been great if when they killed magneto he stayed dead, for at least a decade or so? In DC when they kill you... you usually stay dead for a while, it actually means something. Characters age, have kids, things evolve. In Marvel when they run out of ideas they press reset. All characters live forever, and never age. Why write a great story when you can rehash spiderman's origin again?
Aunt May is apparently a cyborg...refusing to die. Actually she died and was promptly raised from the dead.:rolleyes:
Speaking of raising the dead, how about those Hand ninjas. From what I've read they have reased more people from the dead than they have actually killed. If they make it into Hero Clix I think they should have support.:)

[Tarnish]

I can understand your lack of interest with the never ending story. I guess what I'm saying is wouldn't it have been great if when they killed magneto he stayed dead, for at least a decade or so?

Good god yes! I agree with you on most of your ideas. It's just that The Ultimate stuff doesn't ruin anything for me because they forced me to stop caring about the old versions. I think Ultimate lines will burn themselves ou though. Right now it's fresh and new, but Marvel is already starting to make some of the same mistakes again. The problem is there is no final Authority that can say: Magneto is DEAD! I don't care how cool a story you wrote that will bring him back!

Tarnish

P.S. Legion changed so much with the Zero Hour reboot that I gave it up until recently. It was worse that the Ultimate stuff. Over the course of 5 issues they basically Ultimized things, starting the whole continuity over with differnet versions of the characters. I'm with you in that I want change and permanace with the things that happen, not full scale rebooting and killing of a line.

Tarnish

[drop19]

Originally posted by The Giantsquid
Speaking of raising the dead, how about those Hand ninjas. From what I've read they have reased more people from the dead than they have actually killed. If they make it into Hero Clix I think they should have support.:)
Priceless, that joke made my day. :grin:

Legion has easily been my biggest on-again/off-again love affair with comics. I came in right before the Great Darknes Saga, arguably the highlight of Legion history for many fans. After that the book sort of wandered aimlessly for awhile. When Keith Giffen's V4 era hit it was like a slap upside the head. The story was given a more realistic tone and was definitely darker than what came before. Despite the darkness, things changed and evolved in ways you would rarely see in other mainstream comics. The book felt like it was going places and told some really amazing stories. Then, as Tarnish said, came the Zero Hour reboot. What I had enjoyed so much was thrown out and replaced with "the Ariche Legion." After sticking it out for awhile I moved on, only to come back recently. It turns out after a few years the stories have gotten incredible again and the tone is more similar to what I once loved. :)

[NeoFascist]

Just like the age of apokolips I will consider this an alternate timeline and never part of continuity.

Well, that's good, since it IS an alternate timeline and has NEVER been meant to be part of the regular Marvel continuim.

I understand being displeased that they have cancelled your titles and all, I mean I'm still dissapointed that they cancelled Quantum Leap, but I really can't see how it is the fault of the Ultimate lines.

In any case, the only reason I started reading Marvel comics again was because the Ultimate line. It is a more realistic, more contained story-line. With only three titles and the occasional mini-series I can easily follow the entire Universe.

It is perfect for someone like me, who likes the more adult style, the shorter timeline, and who doesn't really care about the convulted time line of the standard MU.

Now, I can understand if you're upset that the "Ultimate Style" is leaking into the more mainstream comics, but surely you can agree that comics go through phases of being cool and sucking, depending on corporate control and who is writing it.

Also, Thor is not a pot-head, he is just an ecologically-minded type person, and is concerned with the Earth and what not.

[Kid Zero]

Imagine how fans of the original X-Men series felt when they picked up Giant Size #1 and X-Men #94.

Actually, that one didn't bother me.

Rynth, I feel your pain. I quit comics about 11 years ago, because it seemed that every comic that I followed was buying the farm. And nothing stepped up to fill its space. However, I got into wargaming about that time. Hence, my interest in MK and HC. But, I still don't see many comics that have any kind of allure for me. Or, at least, enough to make me want to get back into comics. I will settle for my fond memories of the days when a writer could really experiment, no matter how dumb or odd the idea was, they needed the stories to fill space. (My first comics were from the late 60's/ early 70's.)

[TychesCoin]

I think the issue with new x-men is less an issue of ultimazation bleeding through so much as a fairly standard change in creative teams. morrison went a little farther than alot of writers would when taking over an existing books. But whenever creative teams change plot threads get dropped, character persona's change, lineups change. I think whats happened with new x-men is more a case of marvel just giving a new writer more control and freedom.

I'd discount any rumors that marvel is thinking of dropping the original universe in favor of the ultimate universe. I don't think anything in their behavior suggests it. Especially the way they've expanded everything but the ultimate universe lately.

I reall enjoy the ultimate books, mostly because I don't look at them as a redefinition of existing characters so much as new characters with new stories (some of which may be inspired from older ones) I think the ultimate universe is the one thing marvel has done mostly right in the past few years. They've kept it small, they've had consistent creative teams (and for the most part good ones, Bendis is great, Millar's time on authority shows he's well suited for the Ultimates, less so for the x-men), and they've given it a consistency that isn't present in the real marvel universe (things like mutant issues turn up in spiderman etc) I think the one thing marvel messed up is that they should have taken steps to make easier to jump from the ultimate line to the real marvel universe.

[bizarrome]

They cancelled: Amazing Spider Man, Peter Parker: Spider Man, X-treme X-men, Uncanny X-men, New X-Men, Wolverine, X-statix, Weapon X, Avengers, and Daredevil and nobody told me? Oh well. I geuss Marvel does hate us all.

Alas, but is appears true. They only want your money....:devious:

when Green lantern (NEW SERIES) Hit issue #50 and that total idiot Kevin Dooley destroyed the corp, killed kilawog, made guy gardner powerless and hal went insane. I had just started reading it at issue #1...so I decided to live in denial and and go back and start buying the original series of GL and read an issue a week for about a year before I stopped reading all together....ahhh but in the world I lived in there was still a corp, hal was still the GL and there was no kyle... so live in denial, buy back issues and stop paying for new comics.

I do... I have thousands of back issues of both Marvel and DC. It is just turns my guts to see Hal and all of Marvel treated thusly...

:(

Pardon my edit, but I forgot this the first time. I guess my main issue with these "reimaginings" or whatever Marvel is calling them this week, is that they bear so little resemblance to the original that I don't see how they can qualify as a "different take on an old character." If you give Superman a big gun, a ZZTop beard, a mohawk, make him Hispanic, change his costume to lime green and give him a bad attitude and no compunctions against killing, is he still Superman? Where is the line drawn? Why not just invent NEW characters to tell these stories instead of creating so many new, barely related versions of the originals? I realize my example is extreme and ludicrous, but that's the point. If the fundamentals that make the characters great are to be changed so drastically, just create something completely new.

Create!?! I don't think the folks at Marvel these days can do that. It sure doesn't appear like they can... :confused:

If you don't understand what we mean when we say that the ultimates have ruined our enjoyment of Marvel comics...well I'm just not sure how to explain it any clearer. You read a seeminly never ending novel for decades and one day the novel is replaced with something drastically different. It's only natural to be disappointed. It's just that simple. We will all get over it eventually but I for one reserve the right to complain.:angry:

Imagine how fans of the original X-Men series felt when they picked up Giant Size #1 and X-Men #94.

Actually most were excited to see a new team and a new non-reprint storyline. I have been reading comics since 1971!:cheeky:

can understand your lack of interest with the never ending story. I guess what I'm saying is wouldn't it have been great if when they killed magneto he stayed dead, for at least a decade or so? In DC when they kill you... you usually stay dead for a while, it actually means something. Characters age, have kids, things evolve. In Marvel when they run out of ideas they press reset. All characters live forever, and never age. Why write a great story when you can rehash spiderman's origin again?

Hooray! I so agree!!! The new Hourman rocks! Wally West the current Flash and Former Kid-Flash is having a great run (pun), and I like the new Dr. Mid-night and Sandman too. Jay and Alan are still the core of the JSA and the mix is awsome!!!!:cool:

Also, when the villains are gone for awhile, you tend to see them again years later and remember a great story and cool... I gotta read this!!!

Legion changed so much with the Zero Hour reboot that I gave it up until recently. It was worse that the Ultimate stuff. Over the course of 5 issues they basically Ultimized things, starting the whole continuity over with differnet versions of the characters. I'm with you in that I want change and permanace with the things that happen, not full scale rebooting and killing of a line. :classic:

Agreed, I still don't like Legion, but at least it is only one title and I can choose not to read it and not have to give up on the whole Line. After all, there are those that do like it and I am glad they have it, but I want some of my favs for myself too..... But with Marvel it is just spreading through their entire line. I am glad DC is doing well with most of their stuff. It makes it easier to leave one habit for another...

I'd discount any rumors that marvel is thinking of dropping the original universe in favor of the ultimate universe. I don't think anything in their behavior suggests it. Especially the way they've expanded everything but the ultimate universe lately.

I wouldn't... Marvel stated from the very beginnig that the plan was to go completely to the "New" Ultimates titles and universe. This was talked about by Marvel and their reps as the plan for about 18 months. It wasn't until they had a change in editor and they recieved thousands of pieces of mail from disgrunteled fans that they put it "on hold". And it is just "on hold". Marvel has, as stated earlier started bleeding the ultimates theme and ideaology over into what is left of the MU...

I for one resent the idea of a gradual change is all they need to accept our ideas. What does marvel think we all are?? Frogs in a pot of slowly boiling water??

Sorry about all the quotes, but it had been a while and I wanted it to clear what I was referring to...

[Clix776]

Originally posted by pyr66
THEIR CANCELING AGENT-X WTF?!?!?!?!?!:angry: :angry:
They lost/removed (I don't know which) Gail Simone as the writer. With the amount of dialogue that spews out of Deadpool's mouth (and we all can admit it's DEADPOOL), the book is VERY writer-sensitive. The tone is easily disrupted and almost as easily lost entirely. When I think about the bad stuff that Christopher Priest and then Jimmy *shudder* Palmiotti turned out on the original series, I'm glad that Agent X has had such a quick response time in getting cancelled. The latest issue was not up to snuff by a far cry.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[EvilGenius]

Well guys, there's always DC ..... Muhahahahahahaha!!!!

I mostly read the Bat titles, which are consistantly great. :)

But I too, understand the problems with Marvel. I stopped reading Marvel years ago. The X guys burned me out, for reasons that everyone has stated, the Avengers eventually ran out of good stories, and I gave up Spidey after the horrible Maximum Carnage. My sadness at that loss was only mitigated by my joy in not having to read any of the "Clone" carp. :(

But Batman. He's never let me down. The Bat titles don't really fill quite the same niche in my soul that the 70's and 80's Xmen did, or Spiderman, and doesn't necessarily evoke the same childish glee that "Avenger's Assemble" still manages. But they still tell great stories in the Bat titles. They take risks, they evolve the character, his environment and his supporting cast. Thought and creativity goes into his books.

I recommend them to anyone.

[XocgX]

I think that all comics that are of a certain age will have continuity propblems, unless written prpoerly (like Valiant where a date was given in which the story happened) and after a while, things get messy. DC did Crisis, Marvel is doing Ultimates. this way, you can please both groups. I always saw the Ultimates as a what if type universe where these heroes all appeared today, not in 1960. I personally love it. I read regular and ultimate books. they both satisfy different parts of my being ;-)

[pyr66]

Originally posted by PaxZRake
They cancelled: Amazing Spider Man, Peter Parker: Spider Man, X-treme X-men, Uncanny X-men, New X-Men, Wolverine, X-statix, Weapon X, Avengers, and Daredevil and nobody told me? Oh well. I geuss Marvel does hate us all.

Wait a minute, They are canceling X-Statix, Weapon X, and Agent X. This is complete and utter BS. I now completely and utterly hate Marvel. Those are my 3 favorite boks to read and they are getting canceled. I also read the ultimates line but that won't be enough!

I WANT MY X-STATIX BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[drop19]

I'm pretty sure that statement you are quoting was made sarcastically. Marvel isn't going to cancel New X-Men as it still outsells the Ultimate line. Soldier X and Agent X have definitely had the plug pulled, not certain about the fate of Weapon X. I'm pretty sure any rumors about X-Statix have already been debunked though. The series is going on hiatus for a couple of months while the Wolverine/Doop book is coming out, then will return and continue.

If Marvel was really going to ultimatize everything I think we would have seen it by now. Jemas and Quesada like to throw a lot of disinformation and vague rumors around, but I have yet to see a Marvel figure officially confirm that the line would shift to being all-Ultimate. If this was the case then why would so much effort be spent on revamping books like Captain America and the Hulk, why would they be introducing tons of new stuff like the Tsunami line of titles, etc. The only real news I've seen about the Ultimate line taking over has come from rumor columns and most of the talk there has died down also.

[TychesCoin]

I wouldn't... Marvel stated from the very beginnig that the plan was to go completely to the "New" Ultimates titles and universe. This was talked about by Marvel and their reps as the plan for about 18 months. It wasn't until they had a change in editor and they recieved thousands of pieces of mail from disgrunteled fans that they put it "on hold". And it is just "on hold". Marvel has, as stated earlier started bleeding the ultimates theme and ideaology over into what is left of the MU...

Can you point to any sources? I'm curious now cause I everything I've read has been a steady stream of denials that was ever the plan. I mean I've heard rumors which were usually followed by a denial from one source or another and the denials while not necessarily straight from marvel always seemed more reliable than the rumors.

I also haven't seen much of the ultimazation bleed through into the original marvel universe. I think New X-men is about as far from being an ultimate book as it is from being the book it was before morrison took over. I've heard alot of good things about some recent spiderman stories, daredevil is good (and while I have no grasp of the classic version, he doesn't seemed like an ultimazation of one). I've heard good things about avengers, fantastic four,and thor as well.

From my view point (admittedly fairly limitted), I really don't see much evidence of an ultimazation of the marvel universe. Also I think the latest round of books being released by marvel looks like a push for the classic marvel universe not the ultimate one. They're pushing the Tsunami line at new readers to attract them to characters drawn from the original marvel univerese. I think they're doing a poor job of it, but it seems to be the goal. The ultimates are still waiting for that 4th ongoing book.

Now I came back to reading marvel pretty late in this whole ultimazation thing so its probable I missed some the earlier leaked info on the issue.

[drop19]

Originally posted by bizarrome

Actually most were excited to see a new team and a new non-reprint storyline. I have been reading comics since 1971!:cheeky:


Ok, not sure if I really made my point well enough with the All New All Different X-Men example, so I'll try to elaborate. The original X-Men series focused on Cyclops, Angel, Beast, Iceman and Marvel Girl and tended to be more focused on their roles as students of Xavier. As times changed and the characters grew older there was some variation, but basically the core premise of the series stuck. Then a bit later you have all of these new characters coming in and replacing 3 of the original 5 characters. Now new characters like Banshee, Wolverine, Colossus and Storm were running around, all significantly different than those they replaced. Within a few years Jean was out as well, leaving only Cyclops from the original X-Men group. The book was no longer so much about training young mutants as it was fighting for a place in a world that hates and fears them. Flash forward another few years and none of the original team remained.

The funny thing is that the original X-Men run was never a success by any means. As you stated, for awhile it was just a reprint book so that Marvel could save the expenses of paying creators for new stories. Then when Claremont and friends shifted the tone of the book and cut out a lot of the original team the book started to take off. Claremont would continually evolve this group to the extent of getting rid of Professor X and having more of the characters replaced again. Despite these changes X-Men was always able to maintain an audience, even though readers will always debate as to which era was the greatest. Some will say the original group, some will say the Byrne/Claremont era, some will say the Claremont/Lee era, and some misguided souls might even say the Lobdell era. ;) (/sarcasm)

The point I'm taking way too long to make here is that every comic property goes through significant changes, sometimes even under the run of one creative team. Unless you are pointing to the very original stories by the original creators it's really an unfair statement to say they took your (speaking in general terms here, not at any one person) character(s) away. I can relate to those who are Hal Jordan fans and dislike Kyle, but everytime you state that "Hal is the one true GL" remember that there was this guy with blonde hair and a red shirt that came long before there was a Hal. Comics are going to change over time and the longer you read the more titles you will most likely drift away from. Hopefully these titles will end up in a place you enjoy down the line and if not then hopefully you will find new titles which you can love just as strongly. Just remember, every run on every comic is going to have a group of fans who love it as much as you did at one point.

[PaxZRake]

First, Marvel has publicly stated they have no intention of "Ultimizing" the entire MU, in fact they aren't making an Ultimat Fantastic Four because Mark Waid's run on the book is attracting so many readers.

And your comparison between Ultimate X and New X is slightly off base. The charecters are different in both books. In New Cyke is dark, in Ultimates he is a goody. In New Beast is kind of bitter, In Ultimates Beast is lovable and is hopefully going to have his relationship with Storm blossom. I can bring up more.

And your example of Superman killing people while bla bla bla, DC would call that an Elseworlds title. Marvel would call it a What If?. Ultimate titles are essentially played out What If?s

And I know what you mean about titles getting progressivly worse, I'm a hardcore Ghost Rider fan (check the sig), I don't wish any title to go through what that one went through near the end.

I don't think the Ultimate Titles are really seeping into the MU so much as you think. But that's my view on it. If you would like to analyze my pull list: The End, Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, The Ultimates, JSA, Y: The Last Man.

I don't know if that helps any.

[bizarrome]

TychesCoin I don't have the papers anymore, but for about six months a couple of years ago or so, they (Meaning Marvel and their writers and Editors) spoke of it in interviews and articles that were written about it in the CSN! and the reason they ended the Captain America title and restarted it then was to make Cap an Ultimates line. The cap in the title "Captain America" has not been the same Cap in the first 64 issues of "Avengers". And the Captain America title before that was popular and selling and was the same Cap as in Avengers. They Cancelled it and much of the pencil work was redone because many people did not want the Ultimates Cap. So in effect you have an Ultimates Cap in a title not called an Ultimate Title. Why do a restart after they had just done a restart with the "Heroes Reborn" thing? The whole reason they killed them off was to remove them from the existing universe and relaunch them. It didn't work! So they Came back. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and the Avengers were doing fine. Then came ultimates. They cancelled Cap's book which was popular and he became a more ultimates style character. The plan was to do that with the entire MU, but it wasn't the success they thought and Quaseda put the whole plan "on hold" when he looked at the over all sales for the ultimates vs the mainstream MU titles like Iron Man and Avengers. This is from articles and interviews in the CSN!. The Writers and Artists where upset and so they have set about making the MU characters more like the Ultimates. Look at Thor how his look and attitude have changed.

Now I know the the characters and teams will change significantly over time. I know I have been here for a while and watched it happen. But when you have characters doing things that go against their values and personalities then the change is not good and makes many readers say BS. A good example is the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane divorce situation. Peter is and always has been the biggest family oriented individual in Marvel Comics. The whole premise of that storyline has been bogus. (I may not buy these books but I keep up with what is going on, hoping it will get better.)

When they redid his origin a while back he got a computer instead of a microscope. Now I know computers or the thing now and oh so cool. But peter was always more interested in biology than anything so it made sense. Now he has a computer to play games on. oooooooo..... So much fo biology......

[bizarrome]

TychesCoin I don't have the papers anymore, but for about six months a couple of years ago or so, they (Meaning Marvel and their writers and Editors) spoke of it in interviews and articles that were written about it in the CSN! and the reason they ended the Captain America title and restarted it recently was to make Cap an Ultimates line. The cap in the title "Captain America" has not been the same Cap in the first 64 issues of "Avengers". And the Captain America title before that was popular and selling and was the same Cap as in Avengers. They Cancelled it.

Much of the pencil work was redone on teh ultimates Cap sketches and pencil art because many people did not want the Ultimates Cap. So in effect you have an Ultimates Cap in a title not called an Ultimate Title. Why do a restart after they had just done a restart with the "Heroes Reborn" thing? The whole reason they killed them off was to remove them from the existing universe and relaunch them. It didn't work! So they Came back. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and the Avengers were doing fine. Then came ultimates. They cancelled Cap's book which was popular and he became a more ultimates style character. The plan was to do that with the entire MU, but it wasn't the success they thought and Quaseda put the whole plan "on hold" when he looked at the over all sales for the ultimates vs the mainstream MU titles like Iron Man and Avengers. This is from articles and interviews in the CSN!. The Writers and Artists where upset and so they have set about making the MU characters more like the Ultimates. Look at Thor how his look and attitude have changed.

Now I know the the characters and teams will change significantly over time. I know I have been here for a while and watched it happen. But when you have characters doing things that go against their values and personalities then the change is not good and makes many readers say BS. A good example is the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane divorce situation. Peter is and always has been the biggest family oriented individual in Marvel Comics. The whole premise of that storyline has been bogus. (I may not buy these books but I keep up with what is going on, hoping it will get better.)

When they redid his origin a while back he got a computer instead of a microscope. Now I know computers or the thing now and oh so cool. But peter was always more interested in biology than anything so it made sense. Now he has a computer to play games on. oooooooo..... So much fo biology......

[drop19]

Originally posted by bizarrome
They Cancelled it and much of the pencil work was redone because many people did not want the Ultimates Cap. So in effect you have an Ultimates Cap in a title not called an Ultimate Title.


First off, I remember when the Cap book was being relaunched and at no point was it ever referred to in any official press release or interview as being an Ultimate book. It was always included as part of the Marvel Knights line (which pre-dates the Ultimates line) and definitely has taken a more edgey look at the character. The stories still take place in continuity unless I missed something along the way.

[TychesCoin]

bizarrome,
thanks for the info. I returned to reading marvel only over the past year or so. So I probably missed much of what you are talking about. I still don't see much evidence that it is on marvel's radar at all anymore.

for the record the onslaught storyline/heroes reborn thing is what originally drove me away from the marvel books. I think part of the reason marvel has been restarting books is that they really love the concept of #1 issues. Its typically one of the higher selling issues of a series, so I'm sure taking a stable series and restarting with a new number 1 issue seemes like a good idea. Marvel (and i'm sure dc to some degree) sells based on the characters to a degree that at least rivals the quality of the work. If a captain america series is selling well, and they're planning on bringing in a new creative team for whatever reason, they expect to keep much of the old readership and by restarting they expect to get atleast a temporary influx of new readers.

They know they can pull some drastic stunts to try to increase readership and still maintain a large proportion of the loyal fans. They know they can do something weird with spiderman (clone saga) and recover by returning to status quo if it doesn't take. AoA in the x-books was a bit of risk, not a huge one since the plan was always to return to the original (though there were rumors to the contrary at the time)

I'll admit I don't have any direct experience with the original marvel universe's thor, but the bits of things I've read from reviews make the current take on the character sound very different from the ultimate universe. Didn't thor have another personality issue when thundrestrike was running around?

I don't know much spider lore, but it seems a shift from biology to computers would be a fairly minor one. To alot of people the science thing mostly just established peter as a nerd before he became a super hero. computer still does that in a much more updated way. Part of the problem with comics is the bizarre sense of time passage. eventually some of the older things just run out of usefulness when appealing to new readers. I don't see how the change at all affected the values/persona of the character. It jut updated an aspect to something younger readers who grew up with computers can relate to easier

On peter/mary jane front, I've heard they're getting back together.

I'll agree that marvel has made a lot of bad decisions. There's a reason the number of marvel books I read ranks behind DC, Image and some months dark horse. I just don't see the ultimate universe as a source of any of these mistakes. Its a good idea thats been well executed, (not least so because they've kept it separated from the core mu and haven't replaced anything.) Someday so fool marvel editor or something will get the idea for a crossover or something and ruin both sides of the line but for the moment things are ok.

I think alot of the changes people are having problems with is marvel is recognizing that to get the top writers and keep them on a book to maintain consistency for a while they have to give them more control than they have in the past. Its not necessarily enough to just pay them more money.

[PaxZRake]

The Cap in the MU is what happened to Cap after the events of 9-11, they didn't Ultimize him at all. He just started questioning things. Thor received the Odin-Force because his daddy died. That's why he's king of Asgard now, Ultimate Thor doesn't have the Odin Force or anything anyway, it's just changes in a charecter.

And I believe the Heroes Reborn storyline was planned from the start.

[AdamWarlock]

my, but we are a bunch of sensitive readers, eh? I've found that the best way not to get bogged down with how bad mainstream comics can get (just like the mainstream of any entertainment medium is worse than the independent), I read less marvel & Dc than I do "the indies" (Image, Oni, Dork Storm, Vertigo technically, Slave Labor Graphics, IDW). Seriously, there are TONS of independent publishers out there putting out GREAT stuff, and even if they have to cancel a series because it's not making money, they NEVER leave the readers in limbo: they even let totally unprofitable stories wrap up, at the risk of their own money, rather than leave the fans forever craving the final chapter.

I am still very cross at Marvel about this one:
In 1998 Marvel launched a new "Mature readers" line of "Strange Tales" books; Man-Thing & Werewolf By Night (there was supposed to be a new Sattana series as well, but it never saw print). As of the 3rd issue of both titles they were back on the Comics code. Nonetheless, I still feel that Man-Thing V.3 #'s 1-8 (all that came out before cancellation) ans Werewolv V.2 1-6 (likewise) are among the absolute best things Marvel ever published. They cancelled both series and set out to let the creators finish the stories in a new "Strange Tales" compilation series that combined both titles into a giant-size monthly $4.99 comic that was slated to run 4 issues. For starters this enraged me as it would effect sales for those who only bought one of the two titles and didn't want to shell out the extra $2 to get this other book they didn't want. Then came the worst part... Strange Tales #'s 3 & 4 WERE NEVER PUBLISHED. These were 2 deeply thought out and very intense stories... and they will never have their conclusions told. Some of the best works every published by Marvel (J.M Dematteis on Man-Thing & Paul Jenkins on Werewolf, plus Leonardo Manco's breath-taking art on Werewolf... it always makes me angry).

Anyway.... getting a bit off topic there... Indies are totally safe reading if you fear for the stability of your favorite titles. There's less superhero stuff to be had there, but there are much better things to be read anyhow. Heck, even Marvel's really not publishing many things that can still be called "superhero". Daredevil's more of a hard-edged courtroom drama, Hulk's an action movie where the Hulk itself is never let loose, X-Statix & Spider Man are soap operas... all good stuff, mind you; just not "superhero books". :-)

The most involving indie things I've found on the current market:
PARADIGM; monthly from Image
AMELIA RULES!; Quarterly from Renaissance Press
GIRL GENIUS; Quarterly from Studio Foglio / Airship Comics
POPBOT; Quarterly from IDW Publishing
30 DAYS OF NIGHT; Out in trade from IDW Publishing with a sequel series on the way
100 BULLETS; Monthly from Dc Vertigo
POWERS; Monthly from Image
NIGHTMARES & FAIRYTALES; Bi-monthly from Slave Labor Graphics
BERLIN; erratically published from Drawn & Quarterly

[bizarrome]

First, the Cap relaunch changed his entire background to make him ready for the ultiamtes. I know this as a fact. Weather they went through with it or not, he wass changed so that now he is no longer the same character personality wise, or morally. So he too has been ultimate-ized weather they chose to claim that or not. The same goes for several other characters in the non-classic, classic MU.

It still boils down to the same thing. If you want ultimates than I am glad they have them for you and I state again I hope they make clix for you all that want them. But I won't be spending my money on them, weather they are in a single expansion set or a few at a time. And the way that many of the main stream characters act is less like the characters they are supposed to be and more like the ultimates. Weather you agree with me or not, I will not be giving Marvel any more of my Money to Marvel, except in the case of Heroclix figures that are based on the classic MU characters or a Marvel Masterwork Hardcover. Beyond that, Marvel is dead. Long live DC!!!

Oh, and by the way, There is a mini-series being printed by Marvel now called The End. This was originally planned to be the end of the classic MU. Even my dealer showed me old dealer ads that promoted that just today. So again, long live DC!!!!:)

[drop19]

Hmmm okay. I'll take your word for it that someplace along the time they talked about changing the Captain America title into an Ultimate title. Sure it goes against the way they have run the Ultimate line so far (Avengers, X-men and Spidey still exist despite having Ultimate counterparts) and sure it seems to me that they made it extremely clear that the new book would be part of Marvel Knights, but apparently there was one article that was contrary to all those others I missed. ;)

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here and your adamance about him being "ultimatized" has more to do with a style of comics than an imprint. If you mean that his being ultimatized means making him edgier and more tied to the real world then yeah, they "ultimatized" him, previously know as Vertigoizing or being given the Marvel Knights treatment.

[bizarrome]

Well, I read two articles and a number of blurbs in CSN!, as well as an interview with Machio about the plans in a magazine. Sorry I don't recall which one. Maybe I don't remember it right, it could have been Marvel knights. But I know there was plans for an ultimate cap. With the pouched military belt and laced combat style boots and a more leathery looking costume.

Anyway, He doesn't even seem like the same character. Nor does he seem edgier or more tied to the real world. I felt the Cap in the Avengers line was much better at both than the guy that is supposed to be in the current "Captain America" title.

look at last issue. Some big business man (who has mob boss written all over him) daughter runs away with a guy who is clearly a mob boss to vegas. He has Steve brought in and says he wants his "kidnapped" daughter back. I must point out that the daughter was an adult and ran away with this guy for love. So Steve agrees to go to vegas and get her back. He says later he hates to see a young woman taken against her will. There was no evidence of this. Nor is it a crime to take your adult girlfriend to vegas if she consents to go, even if her father doesn't approve. So why was Steve going after this "kidnapped" girl. No reason except some guy asked him to. He had no clues or evidence to suggest any wrong doing. So what was the motivation for him going?? That is poor story telling and it makes Steve look like and idiot. It screams I am gullable... Kill me!

Also a friend gives him a piece of birthday cake and he goes to a bar to eat it in piece. The way the bar was presented was as a lively, loud, flashy, noisy, smokey, dimmly lit, kinda place. Surely not the kind of place to find peace and quiet. Again why was he there?? To appease some artists idea of a good time?? It didn't fit the thought they were presenting. Plus it just read like the idea was stupid.

The art wasn't very good either. I personally do not care for that gritty, dull, art.

And regardless of how they think a person would react today, remember this: Steve was frozen in suspended animation in 1945. His ideals, way of thinking, and opinions would not be that of a 30 year old in 2003. His habits, way of talking, and morality would be that of the 1940's and it would come out in his mannerisms and speech habits. So he comes accross as nothing but a two-bit phoney. Totally unbelieveable.

While the cap in Avengers runs up to a battalion of men and their commander and says. You are being played for a bunch of fools. if you fire on the others involved you will give the russians and a few other nations an excuse to attack and cause world war III. The soldiers held off attacking and Cap took care of the situation. The whole thing was a plot by Dr. Doom by the way. Cap was ever the field commander during the whole thing and even barked orders at U.S. troops. A much edgier and real conflict situation than the one in the "Captain America" series.

So, call it what you will, but it doesn't wash with me. And again, Marvel will not be getting any more money from me except for classic looking Heroclix and Hardcover Masterworks. If you like the unltimates than fine. More power to ya. I'll stick with my back issues.....

[drop19]

Originally posted by bizarrome
Well, I read two articles and a number of blurbs in CSN!, as well as an interview with Machio about the plans in a magazine. Sorry I don't recall which one. Maybe I don't remember it right, it could have been Marvel knights. But I know there was plans for an ultimate cap. With the pouched military belt and laced combat style boots and a more leathery looking costume.
Well, if this is the same promo I'm thinking of you are completely on base here. Those were the sketches for Ultimate Captain America, as seen monthly in The Ultimates. Nothing to do with the Cap you see every month in the Captain America title.

I'm currently waiting to pick up TPB versions of the Captain America series so I can't comment too decisively on the content yet. Cassaday and Hairsine are both great artists though, and the Jae Lee issues should rock as well. It sounds like the Vegas story you are describing is the What Price Glory mini-series going on right now. Between Bruce Jones' boring scripts on Hulk and Steve Rude drawing in his pseudo-Kirby style it sounds like that book is a good one to take a pass on.

[bizarrome]

Maybe it is what price glory, but it looked and read like the cap from the series....

[Clix776]

Originally posted by bizarrome
Well, I read two articles and a number of blurbs in CSN!, as well as an interview with Machio about the plans in a magazine. Sorry I don't recall which one. Maybe I don't remember it right, it could have been Marvel knights. But I know there was plans for an ultimate cap. With the pouched military belt and laced combat style boots and a more leathery looking costume.

Anyway, He doesn't even seem like the same character. Nor does he seem edgier or more tied to the real world. I felt the Cap in the Avengers line was much better at both than the guy that is supposed to be in the current "Captain America" title.

And regardless of how they think a person would react today, remember this: Steve was frozen in suspended animation in 1945. His ideals, way of thinking, and opinions would not be that of a 30 year old in 2003. His habits, way of talking, and morality would be that of the 1940's and it would come out in his mannerisms and speech habits. So he comes accross as nothing but a two-bit phoney. Totally unbelieveable.

Interestingly enough, I find that the "frozen in 1945, woken up today" is on one of the aspects that just screams out of Ultimate Captain America. He keeps me coming back to the Ultimates all by his lonesome because, let's face it: Cap woke up in the 60s and said "Fashion is different and people talk funnily." and got on with acting like pretty much everyone else. Ultimates Cap doesn't. He's not giving up the 40s. He got an apartment in his old neighborhood. It's a slum and anyone with good sense would avoid it like the plague, and he's surprised, crestfallen, when one of the many gangs who claim the area as their turf breaks in and steals his Sinatra collection (which he bought again upon being unfrozen, on LP of course). Now, a sensible nineties/modern person would call the police and count it for lost. That's not the way things were in the 40s. He hiked across the street like any man would and beat the holy living cr*p out of those filthy hoodlums. They don't own his neighborhood. When Hank Pym beat his wife, Cap didn't understand that it was a co-dependent relationship and Hank was "on anti-depressants". YOU DON'T TREAT YOUR WIFE THAT WAY. And so Cap commandeered a plane, went to Chicago, and gave Pym what he deserved - a good, old-fashioned, 1940s a**-kicking. Ultimates Cap is so interesting because he's not adapting. He is from the 40s and unlike the rest of the world has not had years of being anesthized to the horse hockey that we think of as everyday life and things that just happen. Give Ultimates a ride, just to see the Captain America that could have happened but didn't so we could get to the plot more quickly.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by bizarrome
First, the Cap relaunch changed his entire background to make him ready for the ultiamtes. I know this as a fact. Weather they went through with it or not, he wass changed so that now he is no longer the same character personality wise, or morally. So he too has been ultimate-ized weather they chose to claim that or not. The same goes for several other characters in the non-classic, classic MU.

Oh, and by the way, There is a mini-series being printed by Marvel now called The End. This was originally planned to be the end of the classic MU. Even my dealer showed me old dealer ads that promoted that just today. So again, long live DC!!!!:)

No, Cap was not changed to be more like the Ultimate Cap, the story is an examination of post 9/11 Cap. And what other charecters are you thinking about cause I would love to know.

The End is a great mini, it's still going to be the end of the classic MU, it just doesn't happen in continuity. It's a What If? story written by Jim Starlin, so that he can show off Thanos some more.

Yea, long live DC, they're pretty good to. JSA is an excellent read. Just a sec, shouldn't you hate DC for things like Kingdom Come, The Liberty Bell, and the Unholy Three?

[bizarrome]

No, Cap was not changed to be more like the Ultimate Cap, the story is an examination of post 9/11 Cap.

So why would 9/11 change him?? After all, it must have been some explosion to change the history of his life.

The End is a great mini, it's still going to be the end of the classic MU, it just doesn't happen in continuity. It's a What If? story written by Jim Starlin, so that he can show off Thanos some more.

But I had heard back before the ultimates started that it was planned to be the end all for the classic MU, it was just changed to a what if later since they slowed the change over to the ultimates for the other titles.

Yea, long live DC, they're pretty good to. JSA is an excellent read. Just a sec, shouldn't you hate DC for things like Kingdom Come, The Liberty Bell, and the Unholy Three?

Why? I thought Kingdom Come was an ok read, and it is a possible future for the DC universe, not "THE" diffenitive. In other words, an elseworlds story. What happened to Liberty Bell and the Unholy Three??

He is from the 40s and unlike the rest of the world has not had years of being anesthized to the horse hockey that we think of as everyday life and things that just happen. Give Ultimates a ride, just to see the Captain America that could have happened but didn't so we could get to the plot more quickly.

What plot am I slowing down??

[Thunderbolts]

None of my money goes to Marvel anymore (except whatever percantage of Heroclix stuff they get, not happy bout that either), and they can thank Thunderbolts #76 for that. Anything good I borrow or Byrne-steal. Nuts to J&Q.

[Clix776]

Originally posted by bizarrome
What plot am I slowing down??
You aren't slowing down any plot, bizarrome. I was referring to the Silver Age tendency to back burner character development and get the character up and running as fast as possible to get to the plot. The way that Hal Jordan immediately knew how to do all kinds of stuff with the ring with no explanation. It wasn't until Kyle that we really got to see a learning curve. That sort of thing.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

[Jack O'Lantern]

Wow, there's a lot of disatisfaction with Marvel at the moment. Personally I think the writing has improved in recent years. Because of the current global situation, Cap is relevent again- seriously, how many fights with the Red Skull could he have before it just got boring?
Same with the X-Men, although I'm sad to see the end of Magneto, how many more times could they fight him? The last few times were pretty poor. Morrisons changes took me a while to get used to, but now I have I think they were needed to shake things up a bit- Clairemonts last run was incomprehensible and things had been going downhill before that.
As for the Ultimate line, I see no evidence of it becoming the main MU, as has been mentioned Marvel are releasing a whole lot of new issue 1's (most of which face early cancellation- try bringing out books people will read, Marvel!)
Thats my 2 cents... Oh, wait, I do have one last complaint- BRING BACK PSYLOCKE!!

[bizarrome]

You aren't slowing down any plot, bizarrome. I was referring to the Silver Age tendency to back burner character development and get the character up and running as fast as possible to get to the plot. The way that Hal Jordan immediately knew how to do all kinds of stuff with the ring with no explanation. It wasn't until Kyle that we really got to see a learning curve. That sort of thing.

Oh... Just wasn't thinking... Need more sleep!!

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by bizarrome
So why would 9/11 change him?? After all, it must have been some explosion to change the history of his life.

But I had heard back before the ultimates started that it was planned to be the end all for the classic MU, it was just changed to a what if later since they slowed the change over to the ultimates for the other titles.

Why? I thought Kingdom Come was an ok read, and it is a possible future for the DC universe, not "THE" diffenitive. In other words, an elseworlds story. What happened to Liberty Bell and the Unholy Three??

His origin remains the same, I don't know what you're talking about.

You believe heresay over the internet? I don't.

All of those are examples of Elseworlds. Which is essentially what the Ultimate line is.

[bizarrome]

Okay, his original costume from WWII Changed and he never had a partner then and he and NIck are not friends and so on and so on.... Who really cares anymore?? Marvel is just screwed up so much over the last several years that they can keep their ####py art (and a lot of it is, not all) and their style of storytelling. I am just fedup with the whole thing from them.

Oh and as a side note. I don't think the language that has now become prevalent in Most Marvel titles sets a very good example. Just one of the many minor things that I have gotten tierd of from them to go along with the major ones....