The moderators/judges have no answers

[admironheart]

i am assuming no one actually has the answer to this...because no judge has addressed it in 48 hours.... on 2 different sites and 4 or more threads....

Hello,
Will Herocomplex or Tsannic please answer this...

I've had this topic up all weekend without an answer...it gave all my friends a headache...

We know that Soaring figures can block LOF to grounded targets from grounded attackers.

We know that soaring figures CAN NOT block LOF to elevated targets from elevated attackers [unless the figure is an Elevated Soaring figure][even blocking terrain is ignored, unless it is an elevated blocking terrain...correct??]

We know you can not move through an opposing Soaring figure without some special power/ability.

[I know many of these do not make sense, much like flying figs taxiing other flyers, etc...but we are talking 'game mechanics' here]

Grounded figure: one that is a 'non-flyer' or is 'hovering'

got that digested

Now if we have an 'grounded' attacker targeting an elevated target on the edge...any grounded fig, blocking terrain, Soaring fiure WILL block LOF.

The elevated Attacker on an edge targeting can ignore hindering terrain, GROUNDED figs to target a grounded attacker.[I believe that grounded blocking terrain still blocks LOF from the elevated attacker..correct?]

There is no mention of how Soaring figs affect this last scenario.


a} we know that Blocking terrain and soaring figs can block LOF for grounded to grounded attacks

b} we know that grounded blocking terrain and soaring figs {that are not elevated} can not block LOF for elevated to elevated attacks.

So there is some sort of missing info not in the rules/PAC or FAQ.

I reason that soaring figs will block LOF from an elevated attacker because of precedence.
There are 2 completely different set of conditions for a & b, but when we combine them...the issue of grounded blocking terrain still holds true for the combined conditions...so I reason that soaring figs NOT elevated will continue with the precedent.


So...[if all this is true..please give us an answer][as rediculous as it may sound...just following game mechanics]...
Then Soaring figs are very useful in blockin LOF from rooftop attackers to your other grounded figs.

thank you
wes

[Doomtoy]

In the future, if you wish the attention of a moderator or judge, you might try picking one and PMing him or her. Many of us don't have as much time as we would like, to spend scouring the boards.

If I understand your question correctly, you are asking, "Can a soaring figure block LOS from an Elevated figure to a Grounded figure?"

My take on that would be "no," since the FAQ states that soaring characters can be adjacent ONLY to other soaring characters, and the rules seem to imply that a grounded character on elevated terrain is still grounded... and therefore may not be targeted by a soarer.

Therefore, just to avoid awkwardness, I'd simply say, "No, a soarer can't affect anything except other soarers," since the rules do seem to imply that pretty heavily. That effect would extend to being unable to block LOS from elevated to ground terrain.

You are correct, though, in that I sure can't seem to find anything specifically addressing the question you bring up here.

[NateTG]

I can't answer your question directly because it's unclear what the question is. There is, however, simple explanation that should resolve it for you:

It does not matter wether figures are soaring or hovering for determining line of fire.

[HeroComplex]

NateTG has the simplest answer, and I believe it works in all of these situations, yielding the same answer I would otherwise give.

To determine if the soaring figure blocks LoF, determine if a hovering figure in the same square would do so.

[iam_emperor]

Since this seems to be a LoF question, it must be ranged combat.
Under Ranged combat in the Rules is this statement.
To determine if there is a clear line of fire, use any straight edge or draw an imaginary line from the center of the attacker’s square to the center of the target’s square. Line of fire is blocked and the attack cannot be made if the imaginary line passes through a square that contains a figure other than the attacker or the target, or the line of fire crosses blocking terrain.
The bolded part above draws no distinction to weather the figure is grounded, hovering or soaring. Elevated Terrain has a clause in it
that reads

Line of sight from an elevated attacker is not blocked or hindered by other grounded figures or grounded hindering terrain unless the terrain occupies the same square as the target.

So... you question essentially comes down to:
Does a soaring figure block line of sight when firing down from elevated terrain?
I would say no due to the clause for elevated terrain. It allows you to shoot over figure bases from the elevated terrain to the target.

Personally I would like to see the rules for soaring figures reworked, but i think this is way it is in the current rules.

[admironheart]

In response I note that the exception to the rules for LOF for elevated attackers note that Grounded figures listed specifically as a non-flyer or a hovering figure.[not soaring]

Seems fairly specific that we know what is a grounded figure.
A soaring figure is obviously not grounded.

The Elevated attacker gets the 'specified' benefit of ignoring the effects of said Hindering terrain and grounded figures for LOF.

Soaring figures are not included in that specified distinction. So as obvious as a hero high in the skies should not block LOF in almost any situation as well as here, It seems that we must limit ourselves to the 2 specified distinctions {ignore hindering/grounded figs in path of LOF}
OR
The opinion is that we should insert Soaring figures in with the 2 specified distinctions for elevated attacker vs grounded target. I am just wondering what the rational is to 'add' the soaring figure to the two plainly laid exceptions.

I think the whole soaring issues are unfinished on the whole throughout the game.

The fact remains that soaring figs DO block passage through their square and under many situations DO block LOF through their square.

I appreciate the replies...thank you.

Am still convinced the elevated exceptions are plainly laid out [not withstanding soaring] and that soaring figures were excluded from the benefit.

I look forward to this and other issues of soaring to show up in the FAQ someday.
;)
wes

[admironheart]

"here is a passalong from another forum on the wizkid's site:"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not quite. Here's what the rulebook says...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Marvel rulebook
An attacker on elevated terrain can target a grounded character as long as the only blocking terrain the line of fire crosses is part of the square the attacker occupies. Line of sight from an elevated attacker is not blocked or hindered by other [b]grounded[b] figures or grounded hindering terrain unless the terrain occupies the same square as the target. (bolding mine)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Since the soaring character is clearly not grounded, he still blocks LOF for both A and C in questions 1 and 2.
____________________________________________________
..."the questions were concerning elevated attacker vs grounded target and vice versa with a soaring figure in the LOF.

It seems the main rules specifically touts what a grounded fig is... and since soaring is so rare, comparitively, many false assumptions are made about it and its affects.

wes"

[HeroComplex]

But in noting that line you are disregarding the one prior to it:Characters, objects and terrain that are not elevated are called grounded.Using the logic of that line of text, a soaring figure whose base is non-elevated would in fact be a grounded figure and therefore follows all rules for grounded figures, as said above.

This is exactly why a lot of Judges have begun stressing distinctions between the terms "grounded" and "ground-based," where the first refers to non-elevated and the second refers to non-flying. The problem with applying those clearer terms, however, is that the original rulebook doesn't much distinguish between these two different things by grouping them both under the heading of "grounded."

[admironheart]

I see the line you noted. And it does 'catch' all non-elevated figures...which would include non-elevated soaring figures.

BUT

then the next line goes on to elaborate that 'said' grounded characters can be 'hovering' or 'non-flyers'.[where is the soaring!?!]

So both lines juxtapose each other as to what a grounded figure is....[one rational would be that you can only soar on elevated terrain..haha][lets not even go there ;)]

I am curious about the second line which specifically elaborates on the first. [if the first line is correct..then there is absolutely no reason to include the second line as it is redundant]
If the first line is just a generalized line...then it make sense to have the 2nd line to clearly list what is a grounded character.

hmmm where is my advil
thanks herocomplex

wes

[Doomtoy]

Like I said... to avoid awkwardness, I would simply say "no."

You are quite correct in your statement that the rules don't exactly pin the point down.

[Batman1983]

I agree besides a soaring character (game aside) would be above a building/sidewalk/person so (since in the comics Wasp does not stand on a plastic stick to fly) they should only block LOF from one soarer to another. Further more (I'm not sure where the FAQ is on this) If V Inv. Woman is on hindering terrain stelthed should her invisible body block LOF to Thing who stands (all big, seeable, & orange) behind her? I know technically if doom were to shoot thing it would hit inv woman (& game wise this would mess everything up, so we can't have that). however if she goes to soaring (this is where the FAQ escapes me) is she still stealthed & if so can Doom still not see thing? If you have soarers not block LOF to & from grounded characters (& no offense guys, but I think the FAQ is clear in its wording as to what a grounded character entales: not soaring) won't run into this problem. Now whether they change the FAQ or whether they should out side of tournies play w/ house rules I don't care, but In tournies some things (like this) have to be cut & dried & I think it is.

My final judgement (I'm not an official Judge cause my work scedule wont allow me the time to scedule events in advance) Is that in the current enviroment of the game these things are true:

1) LOF from grounded to elevated is blocked by all figures

2) LOF from elevated to grounded is not blocked by any figure because a figure on a roof top still halfs range suggesting that the soaring figure is above them. nowhere in the rules does it say that a character soaring blocks LOF. Until it does (although a soaring character is not defined as grounded) it does not block LOF.

so the real problem here is not "can I use all those R Yellow Jackets for blocking terrain?" but rather 'why does a soarer (from what I read in the rules) block LOF to the roof from the ground?'

The answer may be as simple as one word: Grounded. If you read the FAQ under LOF the 7th point reads as follows: "Line of Fire is clear if it doesn't cross blocking terrain or a square occupied by a figure. .... (the second line talks about hindering)" If you put in the word 'grounded' before the word 'figure' in that sentence then it clears it all up & the soarer doesn't effect ranged combat between those who aren't soaring. However it doesn't so a soarer blocks the grounded attacker from attacking the roof, but not the roof top onefrom att the grounded.

Are we then to assume that if a soarer is soaring above the ground a figure on the roof shouldn't have to half their range? well thats a different thread isn't it.

[admironheart]

I believe soaring figures can still take knockback damage from hitting the side of a building. We mostly think of buildings being a few stories tall, but since soarers do{am I correct?] take knockback damage from hitting a side of a building...then maybe the elevated building is a tall skys####er 100 stories high.

My point is this..soaring figures do not have to be considered higher than the elevated terrain.

AND soarers DO BLOCK LOF for grounded to grounded.


second bullered point from the faq which I just read under LOF:

1st bullet ..."unless otherwise specified...a square that is occupied by a figure always blocks line of fire"

I think the next specific wording of the 2nd bullet is very indicative of the intent of the rule.:
"For the purpose of line of fire, hovering characters should be considered grounded. Hovering characters do not block line of fire from an elevated attacker."

If soarers are supposed to be exempt: the main rules would have stated that ..."flyers and non-flyers" are grounded figures.
BUT instead it states..." figures that are hovering, or non-flyers" are grounded figures.

I would say that the 1st and 2nd bullets of the faq reinforce the idea that soarers are NOT one of the 2 specified exemptions for attackers from an elevated terrain.

Think about Bullseye on a 20 story building targeting hovering Magneto and Professor X on the ground and along comes soaring Rogue [10 stories high...for farts and giggles] to block his LOF from the elevated position.

In fact it does make sense and would seem to be a deliberate consideration of the rules.

peace

wes

[HeroComplex]

Just on the point about it making sense---Magneto is twice as far from Bullseye as Rogue is, but he must halve his range only against her? And that hovering Magneto must expend more of his movement value to reach 10 stories (soaring) than he does to reach 20 stories (elevated)? Those points don't seem to fit into a sensical scheme of things.

And having skys####ers equate to the single-level-above-the-battlefield elevated terrain really stretches how believable it is for a grounded figure to block LoF against an elevated one despite that not being reciprocated.

Lastly, because of the rulebook's stipulation that there is no terrain at the soaring level, I would actually argue contrary to your original point---soarers do not take knockback damage from hitting walls.

[Tsannik]

Wow.... wouldn't a simple BUMP on your original post been better?

[Mr_Boo]

from the rule book...soaring is a character flying high ABOVE the battlefield...so even an elevated figure is below a soaring figure...so therefore the are not blocking LOS or LOF

[admironheart]

Will you two please, please note to those here that
Soaring figures CAN INDEED block LOF for characters that

1 are grounded and targeting grounded targets as per the rules and faqs

2 that are elevated and targeting elevated targets and the soaring character is as well elevated as per the rules.

Please do acknowlegde that this is correct?

thank
you

wes.

PS.: there are many 10's of thousands of threads on this site here detailing issues that are not very realistic, Wasp taxiing thing, Gumball machines are hindering terrain from hovering vision attacking hovering ultron, that soaring characters can not shoot grounded targets, but they can shoot back, etc.

we all have our own rational for 'game mechanics' and you two have aided me in understanding the foibles of using rational thought when making judgements on game mechanics...it might not make a whole lot of sense...but it is the rules, etc.

I was just giving one comment on how I could see it being rationalized. As I understood it Hovering characters are low enough to interact with non-flyers and soaring figures are too high for non-flyers to interact in close combat...that could be any type of elevation not just miles in the air.

I also rationalize that the senseless rule that soaring flyers cannot attack non-soarers, but vice versa is that they are flying evasive manuevers...but that is just my personal rational....in that sense..it would make sense about Magneto/bullseye ;)

lastly...another rule...even though you have made the opinion that soaring figures do not suffer knockback damage from blocking terrain...they STILL would from the map edge and ..

If soaring Superman blasted soaring wasp for lots of clicks of knockback she would still STOP in the square before grounded Ant-man...doesn't make sense why ant-man would stop the wasp high up in the air...just game mechanics and that is how I am basing my opinions of what the faq and rules state in multiple places...and you have your opinion based on one line which is infact then elaborated in the next line and the faq to substantiate my opinion on the issue...

You have your mind made up on the issue and I guess that until furth clarification is given...there is not much sense in bringing up viable issues which are confusing on this topic.
have a nice day ;)
wes

[admironheart]

hello,

this whole dialogue has aided me in learning many new rules.

I found out that sentinals can attack soaring figures in close combat.

So we also know that soaring figures are only at most slightly higher than a sentinal.[not super high in the clouds or miles up]
In fact...very close to the height of elevated terrain as a sentinal can close combat elevated targets as well!!

wow we all learn something everyday![hoping Iwill never have to hear someone state that soaring figures are way, way, way, above the battlefield ever again...sheeesh!]

;)
wes

[Batman1983]

when I first played the game I was under the impretion that soaring & elevated are on the same level. thus elevated to ground att would be halved & soaring to elevated wouldn't. however this is wrong, so there are some descrepencies. I'm simply asking you to see how different opinions affect the translation of whats there. I'm not saying your wrong I'm saying the rules as they stand favor diff things depending on what you highlight. But three of your posts ago helped me to agree with you now (as crazy as it may seem to the "reality" of the comics) the soarer would block LOF from roof to ground & ground to roof.