Worlds 2011 - The Map Menu [Archive]

WizKidsNECA

05/23/2011, 17:00

The battlefield for your HeroClix game is a key component of the HeroClix match. It is one of the reasons people will often play a Themed Team, in order to increase the odds of being the first player. It is why many players choose to select the map and be the first player rather than put that crucial decision in the hands of their opponent.

Another thing that’s true about maps is that not everyone has all maps. Some were given away during a time before some players were in the game. Some were sold as a part of sets that some players missed or couldn’t afford.

Many venues have sent HeroClixRules@gmail.com questions along the lines as to what is acceptable for them to restrict in a “WizKids Event”. The fact is that venues are empowered to make any kinds of decisions about the play experience at their venues. Map lists, scenarios, build types, etc. If folks are having a good time getting together to play HeroClix, then we at WizKids are delighted.[...]

[Read More on WizKidsGames.com (http://wizkidsgames.com/blog/2011/05/23/worlds-2011-the-map-menu/)]

cattmoe

05/23/2011, 18:32

Well, so much for using Krakoa against Nightcrawler... :ermm:

Darknesspwns

05/23/2011, 18:40

krakoa made the game a bit more random and less strategic so i can see why it was left out of things like worlds ect where there trying to test off skill, unfortunately dice rolls are still a factor

incredible

05/23/2011, 18:41

WTG getting this finalized now.
Rather than later.

brevard321

05/23/2011, 18:46

No Blackest Night either (due to the confusion, I suppose).

I don't know why Krakoa or Hawkworld would be left off.

It's another case of:

"Why make it if you don't want anyone to use it," just like the Street Fighter/Lord of the Rings (possibly) not being Modern Age legal.

And Fountain of Asgard is on there, but I guess the Rainbow Bridge rules are not legal as per the map?

I don't get it. I think the fun and interactive maps should be on this list.

Citizen Kabuto

05/23/2011, 19:16

Ugh. But the Junkyard stays on the list. Because goodness knows flushing Nightcrawler/Shazam/whoever out of the trash compacter makes for a fun and enjoyable game. :tired:

I like the idea of having a random map selected for every game in the finals at Worlds. That seems like a good test to me - you'd have to build a team that would be able to handle any map at any time. You really can't talk about eliminating randomness when the game is still decided by dice rolls. Winning all of your matches despite the random element tends to indicate skill, not just aberrant good fortune.

spawn10

05/23/2011, 20:07

And Fountain of Asgard is on there, but I guess the Rainbow Bridge rules are not legal as per the map?

I would guess so. Graveyard and Crater both have special rules, though, so I don't know what their reasoning is for this. To me, it's fine. No Prison map for NC and no Krakoa map for anti-NC. No Rooftops and no Hawkworld means harder to get the Alter Ego guys on their AE clicks.

jbship628

05/23/2011, 20:11

Prison Map is also off the list, so that at least keeps Nightcrawler off one of his favorite playgrounds.

jbship628

05/23/2011, 20:14

No Rooftops and no Hawkworld means harder to get the Alter Ego guys on their AE clicks.

THIS.

Jason Blood teams could have 2 Jason Blood figures onto Etrigan by Turn 3 thanks to the phone booth. Then the hawkworld map came out and gave them another option.

Now they are going to have to wait until Turn 7 to turn into Etrigan.

tyroclix

05/23/2011, 20:17

Lame. I've never heard of putting training wheels ON someone who already knew how to ride a bike... :ermm:

Regardless, it is what it is.

Living in Florida it will be a rare time I can afford to travel to any con, but with this new rule in mind:

Glad to see the Prison and Space Map off the list. The Prison map is just too unbalanced against certain pieces. Space Map is a butt-load of confusion with so much to remember.

Interesting to see Fountains of Asgard getting official status. It was the only WK map that was not for tournament use and yet, here it is...

Curious as to how diverse the choice of maps will be. In a 300 build there are certain go to figures for a reason. No reason maps won't follow suit.

brevard321

05/23/2011, 21:07

And yes, I know this is only for the World's tournaments, but it's a dangerous precedent, I should think.

This is as close to outright banning stuff as we have gotten in Heroclix, is it not?

Oh well, it is what it is. I'll save my complaints for when we find out that Lord of the Rings and Street Fighter are officially NOT Modern Age legal.

Munchoboy

05/23/2011, 21:13

And yes, I know this is only for the World's tournaments, but it's a dangerous precedent, I should think.

The precedent was set years ago when there was only one map allowed. ;)

thanosstar

05/23/2011, 21:15

nightcrawler gonna have a field day at worls..he doesnt get the prison map but no krakoa or the open mars map from dr manhatten

Xargon

05/23/2011, 21:47

Yeah we couldn't possibly have nightcrawler getting killed by krakoa.

thanosstar

05/23/2011, 22:26

Yeah we couldn't possibly have nightcrawler getting killed by krakoa.

qft.......

thanosstar

05/23/2011, 22:26

vlad3theimpaler

05/23/2011, 22:33

The precedent was set years ago when there was only one map allowed. ;)

But more recently all maps were allowed. So the current precedent was not just one map.

may i ask why krakoa is a no go?

It could have something to do with the random nature of the map. Krakoa doesn't necessarily reward those who play well as much as those that roll well. I had a game where Krakoa did more damage to my opponent than I did.

Munchoboy

05/23/2011, 23:41

But more recently all maps were allowed. So the current precedent was not just one map.

In all fairness, all maps were not allowed as recently as last year's Worlds.

For example, tournament legal 3x3 maps were not allowed last year. :ermm:

My point is, folk should not treat this as a new thing nor act so surprised really.

vlad3theimpaler

05/24/2011, 00:01

In all fairness, all maps were not allowed as recently as last year's Worlds.

For example, tournament legal 3x3 maps were not allowed last year. :ermm:

My point is, folk should not treat this as a new thing nor act so surprised really.

Ok, not all maps. All legal 2x3 maps. My point was that when citing precedent, more recent examples tend to bear more weight. At one time, there was only one map allowed. More recently, there was a wide variety of maps allowed.

(And personally, I would actually rather have either one standard map or an open selection rather than a narrow list. But opinions will undoubtedly vary.)

W.I.T

05/24/2011, 00:18

This is an interesting turn of events. It won't affect me, as I won't be able to go this year (as much as I really wanted to :ermm:), but it will make things interesting in the years to come.

Gentlegamer

05/24/2011, 00:47

No JSA Museum for the JSA and All-Star Squadron to take n00bs to school on?

Lame.

Rurouni KJS

05/24/2011, 00:48

Ugh. But the Junkyard stays on the list. Because goodness knows flushing Nightcrawler/Shazam/whoever out of the trash compacter makes for a fun and enjoyable game. :tired:It's a lot harder on that map for NC to kidnap from that position and deliver to the killbox without either him or said helpers having to engage the rest of the enemy. He loses a fair degree of his effectiveness as a result.

Winning all of your matches despite the random element tends to indicate skill, not just aberrant good fortune.It doesn't. Not in the case of Krakoa. No amount of skill beyond basic lack of rookie mistakes can save a player against damage that can occur EVERY TURN.

No Rooftops and no Hawkworld means harder to get the Alter Ego guys on their AE clicks.Yeah. They're SUPPOSED to be hard to get to AE. That's why even with the PhoneBooth you could only get one Blood to Etrigan by turn 2 at best. Hawkworld is an even bigger exploit of the mechanic.

Interesting to see Fountains of Asgard getting official status. It was the only WK map that was not for tournament use and yet, here it is...A decided lack of hindering terrain is why, I think. Harder for NC and other annoying Stealthers to hide and still be able to significantly affect the game.

It could have something to do with the random nature of the map. Krakoa doesn't necessarily reward those who play well as much as those that roll well. I had a game where Krakoa did more damage to my opponent than I did.This is definitely the case. I recently played a 200-pointer starring SR Valkyrie and Samantha Parrington on Krakoa, losing against Metron even though the dreaded "4" almost never came up. Then I lost to a rash of incredibly poor die rolls against a Guardians of the Galaxy team, which went on to defeat the Metron team despite lacking ANY ability to damage the highly mobile New God because the GotG player rolled a TON of sixes for Krakoa.

Having this map at Worlds would be like trying to play the Super Bowl with concealed NSA snipers taking random potshots at the players between downs.

In all fairness, all maps were not allowed as recently as last year's Worlds.

For example, tournament legal 3x3 maps were not allowed last year. :ermm:

My point is, folk should not treat this as a new thing nor act so surprised really.As usual, you insist on making good sense on the internets. STFU!!!!:p

skletapocket

05/24/2011, 00:49

The precedent was set years ago when there was only one map allowed. ;)

Really Munchoboy, this is a silly statement. Back in the day, there was only one map provided. There were no maps that were outright NOT allowed.

Try though they might to say it isn't "map retirement", venues want to play like tournaments for commonality. This will become a guideline for venues to start allowing only certain maps, which will eventually lead to players saying "I don't want to play on XYZ map, because it isn't Heroclix approved" or something equally incorrect in all but name. Then it becomes reality.

This IS a dangerous precedent (for a game of semi-collectible mini plastic superheroes :p ) that will have an impact on most players. There is no reason to chide those that are nervous about what this means for the future of the game we all love. It IS a change.

Gentlegamer

05/24/2011, 00:51

This is not actually new. Many years ago, the high end tournaments actually limited the map “choice” to … one map. This goes back a long time, but when Supernova and DC Origin expansions released, those conventions maintained a map requirement. This in itself was not good for the meta game (people would build very different teams based on knowing what map they would play on). Similarly, having any/every map available to be played on also affects the meta game in unintended ways. The middle of the road solution is to provide a list of legal maps for the Worlds environment.

Good to see the tournament organizers taking real meta game considerations in mind. However, they should be reminded that meta game implications should start at the game design and play test level.

Also, if this is essentially a tournament ban list for maps . . . why not a tournament ban list for characters?

spawn10

05/24/2011, 04:39

[I]Also, if this is essentially a tournament ban list for maps . . . why not a tournament ban list for characters?

I would probably support something like this, if not for the gigantic can or worms this would open.

vlad3theimpaler

05/24/2011, 04:58

Just pointing out that technically it's not a "ban list." The article lists what is allowed, not what isn't allowed.

Gentlegamer

05/24/2011, 05:06

Just pointing out that technically it's not a "ban list." The article lists what is allowed, not what isn't allowed.That's why I said it's essentially a tournament ban list.

Regardless of how stated, it excludes otherwise rules-legal game elements based on 'editorial' choice of meta-game impact.

Doctor Diesel

05/24/2011, 06:44

Any map with special rules mechanics that favors luck or are distinctively skewed towards a certain style of play should be fair to put on a no-fly list in a worlds event. If there exists characters/tactics that are problematically dominant, these should be handled individually as separate game elements.

I've argued in other threads for Nightcrawler being too cost-effective, so this is not from a pro-NC perspective: If you even considered Krakoa (or any other specific map) as your main plan to counter any given strategy or piece, odds are that you and your team are not worlds material.

iceman243

05/24/2011, 09:17

Ugh. But the Junkyard stays on the list. Because goodness knows flushing Nightcrawler/Shazam/whoever out of the trash compacter makes for a fun and enjoyable game. :tired:

Very true. I would have been fine with the junkyard and the lab being left out.

At least we know which maps are going to be legal well in advance. Good job, WK!:)

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 09:31

If I was playing in Worlds (I'm not) and I had to face a Nightcrawler team I'd probably pick the Fountains of Asgard map. There's not a whole lot of places for Nightcrawler to hide out there.

ATrainWreck

05/24/2011, 09:37

Really Munchoboy, this is a silly statement. Back in the day, there was only one map provided. There were no maps that were outright NOT allowed.

Try though they might to say it isn't "map retirement", venues want to play like tournaments for commonality. This will become a guideline for venues to start allowing only certain maps, which will eventually lead to players saying "I don't want to play on XYZ map, because it isn't Heroclix approved" or something equally incorrect in all but name. Then it becomes reality.

This IS a dangerous precedent (for a game of semi-collectible mini plastic superheroes :p ) that will have an impact on most players. There is no reason to chide those that are nervous about what this means for the future of the game we all love. It IS a change.

His statement is "silly" Actually this statement you just made is sillier for the fact that Venues will do what they want no matter what ! Always have and always will, and as saying something isn't Heroclix approved, really! I do give people who play the game more credit than that to know the difference. And it is only a change for the Worlds event nothing else.... Nothing like breaking out the torches and pitchforks..

They made good choices WK is doing a good job and even giving a heads up to the event, really complaints can be found everywhere, everyone will just have to adjust....

:tired:

:a-sharpshooter:

iceman243

05/24/2011, 09:40

That's why I said it's essentially a tournament ban list.

Regardless of how stated, it excludes otherwise rules-legal game elements based on 'editorial' choice of meta-game impact.

That is true for some of the maps that have been left off of the "allowed" list, but not all choices were made on meta-game impact. Was the Hellboy/BPRD map really abused that much? It's probably one of the best maps for all of the characters that have water-based special powers and definitely slows down a good number of the Hypersonic characters.

iceman243

05/24/2011, 09:43

If I was playing in Worlds (I'm not) and I had to face a Nightcrawler team I'd probably pick the Fountains of Asgard map. There's not a whole lot of places for Nightcrawler to hide out there.

That's a good choice because of the limited hindering, but he can still position with the elevated terrain to cut off line of sight to him. Out of the 15 maps that are allowed, I'm not yet sure which one I would choose if facing a Nightcrawler team.

Still, it is very nice to have the possible choices narrowed down in advance!

sengirv

05/24/2011, 09:48

No Krokoa? Then why make it? Why subject the masses to it's effects, but shield the upper echelon?

krusticlese

05/24/2011, 09:52

Also, if this is essentially a tournament ban list for maps . . . why not a tournament ban list for characters?

How about something as simple as: Any of the figures designed by a world champion cannot be played in a World's event.

Nightcrawler is obviously a fanboy dial with little to no game balance. Massu's Black Adam will likely fall into the same category.

Let me ask this: withought a Nightcrawler in the picture, what would be played? Are there any other figures in Modern Age that are so broken that they would need to be banned competitively?

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 09:59

That is true for some of the maps that have been left off of the "allowed" list, but not all choices were made on meta-game impact. Was the Hellboy/BPRD map really abused that much? It's probably one of the best maps for all of the characters that have water-based special powers and definitely slows down a good number of the Hypersonic characters.
I think the Anura temple map has a fairly large "screw you!" factor as it severely hampers teams with low mobility - a team of mostly :m-boot: figures will be slowed down significantly, and flying ranged combatants are very powerful there. Fortunately there's a fair share of water on the Fountains of Asgard and Bridge maps too...
That's a good choice because of the limited hindering, but he can still position with the elevated terrain to cut off line of sight to him.
Absolutely, but it is definitely easier to outmaneuver Nightcrawler when Stealth is less of a factor.
How about something as simple as: Any of the figures designed by a world champion cannot be played in a World's event.

Nightcrawler is obviously a fanboy dial with little to no game balance. Massu's Black Adam will likely fall into the same category.
I realize Nightcrawler has left a sour taste in many people's mouths, but do you really need to condemn Black Adam before you have seen the dial?

ATrainWreck

05/24/2011, 10:56

Nightcrawler is obviously a fanboy dial with little to no game balance. Massu's Black Adam will likely fall into the same category.

Could I have the Powerball Numbers for next week ? :tired:

:a-sharpshooter:

NeoShazam

05/24/2011, 11:03

Also, if this is essentially a tournament ban list for maps . . . why not a tournament ban list for characters?

Because Nightcrawler would be target # 1 and it seems as if they're pretty determined not to make any changes to him. If he wins Worlds I'm sure those ignoring his power will be " well Krakoa kills him and normally you'll have Krakoa".

No Krokoa? Then why make it? Why subject the masses to it's effects, but shield the upper echelon?

I dunno. I can sorta see the rationale for most of the list but Days of Future Past , Hellboy, and the Mars map should be good game experiences and I think the Junkyard and the Graveyard could turn into negative play experiences way quicker than those two.

I realize Nightcrawler has left a sour taste in many people's mouths, but do you really need to condemn Black Adam before you have seen the dial?

Agreed. Plus Black Adam fits into the damage dealing brick category and will at least be +100 points so his effectiveness might be easier to immediately spot and compare to other figures in the game.

iceman243

05/24/2011, 11:30

I think the Anura temple map has a fairly large "screw you!" factor as it severely hampers teams with low mobility - a team of mostly :m-boot: figures will be slowed down significantly, and flying ranged combatants are very powerful there. Fortunately there's a fair share of water on the Fountains of Asgard and Bridge maps too...

"screw you!" factor, Ha!:laugh: that made my day at work. Very true about hampering the teams with low mobility, but can't that be said about any map? If your team consists of mostly :m-boot: figures, you could face a tough time on several maps, including the junkyard.

And not that I expect anyone to build a team around a water-based special power in the finals (but would love to see GROOT!). But the big difference between Anura temple and the other two you mentioned is the way the water is spread out on the Anura Temple map. Bridge - you only have water on the edges. Asgard - water is only in the middle.

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 12:07

"screw you!" factor, Ha!:laugh: that made my day at work. Very true about hampering the teams with low mobility, but can't that be said about any map? If your team consists of mostly :m-boot: figures, you could face a tough time on several maps, including the junkyard. On the Junkyard, a :m-boot: figure can get almost halfway across the map before being stopped by the hindering terrain. On the Anura Temple, they can get... six squares up, I believe. That's a pretty big difference.
And not that I expect anyone to build a team around a water-based special power in the finals (but would love to see GROOT!). But the big difference between Anura temple and the other two you mentioned is the way the water is spread out on the Anura Temple map. Bridge - you only have water on the edges. Asgard - water is only in the middle.
Very true, but on the other hand most water-based SPs don't need that much water to be effective. The Bridge or Fountain map should have more than enough water for Namor to use his Regeneration on, for instance.

squirecam

05/24/2011, 12:10

On the Junkyard, a :m-boot: figure can get almost halfway across the map before being stopped by the hindering terrain. On the Anura Temple, they can get... six squares up, I believe. That's a pretty big difference.

Very true, but on the other hand most water-based SPs don't need that much water to be effective. The Bridge or Fountain map should have more than enough water for Namor to use his Regeneration on, for instance.

Aquaman's place power in water terrain
Attuma's quake
Throg's alligator SP

Just off the top of my head.

In fact these figures would greatly benefit from the BPRD map. As opposed to the bridge or the fountain.

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 12:38

Aquaman's place power in water terrain
Attuma's quake
Throg's alligator SP

Just off the top of my head.

In fact these figures would greatly benefit from the BPRD map. As opposed to the bridge or the fountain.
There's also Triton's Aquatic Ambush SP. Attuma is doubtful though since his Tidal Wave only affects those adjacent to but not occupying water terrain - on the Anura temple most of the battle would probably be in the water.
Either way, Namor is the only one who might show up on a competitive team.

squirecam

05/24/2011, 12:47

There's also Triton's Aquatic Ambush SP. Attuma is doubtful though since his Tidal Wave only affects those adjacent to but not occupying water terrain - on the Anura temple most of the battle would probably be in the water.
Either way, Namor is the only one who might show up on a competitive team.

Without the BPRD map, why would you bother to make an Atlantis/water character theme team? Unless you can force your opponent to cross the water (and no other map can), then your going to likely lose.

Swimmers have always gotten shafted.

BudPalmer

05/24/2011, 12:53

Personally, I like that maps that can directly influence the outcome of the game are out but that's just me.

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 13:01

Without the BPRD map, why would you bother to make an Atlantis/water character theme team?
As someone said: If a big part of your strategy is dependent on getting the right map, odds are good that your team is not very competitive.
You could still do an Atlantis team for fun though. :) Remember, this list is for World's only.

iceman243

05/24/2011, 13:43

On the Junkyard, a :m-boot: figure can get almost halfway across the map before being stopped by the hindering terrain. On the Anura Temple, they can get... six squares up, I believe. That's a pretty big difference.

True, 6 squares then you hit water. It definitely is a big difference compared to the Junkyard in that aspect.

As someone said: If a big part of your strategy is dependent on getting the right map, odds are good that your team is not very competitive.
You could still do an Atlantis team for fun though. :) Remember, this list is for World's only.

Just playing devil's advocate, I would say the opposite is true too - if a certain map screws your team (i.e., you have no way to get around water, such as including a flier on your force) then your team also is likely not that competitive.

So going back to the Junkyard (excellent review HERE (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300095&highlight=junkyard) ) and our favorite character, Nightcrawler...he is going to own with his killbox on this map.

All he has to do is set up shop in the trash compacter with his stealthed martial artist buddies blocking the ladders into the compactor. Now, the same argument for Anura temple hosing low mobility :m-boot: teams also applies here.

- I happen to like both the Junkyard and Anura Temple. And again, I will state that I am glad that there are a limited number of maps that can be chosen for GenCon Worlds. It's much easier to plan around 15 maps instead of all of the 2X3 maps that WK has made so far.

iceman243

05/24/2011, 13:48

Personally, I like that maps that can directly influence the outcome of the game are out but that's just me.

I'm with you, but there is no easy way to determine that for most of the maps. Krakoa was an easy call, but some of the others have arguments for either decision. I also happen to favor the 2sided map that was originally released at GenCon 2007 and later given out at venues, the Castle Ruins/Carnival map. I don't think this map influences outcomes in any way, but WK had to make cuts somewhere.

Quebbster

05/24/2011, 13:48

Just playing devil's advocate, I would say the opposite is true too - if a certain map screws your team (i.e., you have no way to get around water, such as including a flier on your force) then your team also is likely not that competitive.

So going back to the Junkyard (excellent review HERE (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300095&highlight=junkyard) ) and our favorite character, Nightcrawler...he is going to own with his killbox on this map.

All he has to do is set up shop in the trash compacter with his stealthed martial artist buddies blocking the ladders into the compactor. Now, the same argument for Anura temple hosing low mobility :m-boot: teams also applies here.
That is definitely a possibility, yes. But because it is such an obvious tactic it is possible to plan around it - you could try to get to the trash compactor first, for instance, or just keep your distance enough that Nightcrawler cannot drag you in.