Sentinals and soaring figs

[admironheart]

Hello,

I have not read the sentinal rules, but..

I was told that sentinals can attack soaring figures in close combat...

...that they do not halve range when using ranged attacks...

...and that they are adjacent to soaring figures...

are all 3 correct?

thanks
wes


some folks think soaring figs are miles in tha air, but if the rules for sentinals do include all three as yes...

then soaring figures would rarely be ashigh as elevated terrain as most sentinals can fit inside most buildings[although not on outdoormaps...because not even ant-man can fit iside a building on those maps ;)]

[Canada Maestro]

From the sentinels rules on the whizkids site:

1 -- Yes, a Sentinel can make a close combat attack against a soaring figure (General Rule #6 of the Sentinels)

2 -- No, they do not have to halve their range and soaring characters can do a range attack against a Sentinel at full range as well. Third paragraph of the "Attacking" section of the Sentinels rules.

3 -- Not sure on this one. I'm thinking that since they can do close combat against one another then they should be considered adjacent. Should probably wait for a judge on this one.

As for Sentinels fitting into buildings, I think it depends on the model, artist, and a bunch of other factors. Some Sentinels I recall were huge and others were mansized. But in the end I can't see it making any difference to the game. The rules have to be made to make the game fair and entertaining. Sometimes it makes "logical" sense, sometimes it doesn't. But it's the rules.

[admironheart]

thanks for the reply.


I guess the sentinal rules give us an insight to how how a soaring figure is... Not much higher than a sentinal!!!!


'nuff said!'

so :p to everyone who argues that soaring figs must be super high in the air...

[Canada Maestro]

Ok, the Sentinels rules give us no insight into how high the soaring figure is, it tells us how to use a Sentinel during the game.

And even if you tried to make some connection, "not much higher than a Sentinel" tells us nothing. There were Sentinels that were human sized and there were Sentinels who towered above large buildings.

[admironheart]

so somewhere between 10 and 100 feet maybe.

the game has a sentinal that is around......

40' tall....I think that most of the sentinals where close to that range.

Soaring figures could actually be only half this distance high...and still be attacked...while elevated terrain could be much higher than the soarer...
anything other than speculation is just so much hooing and hawing as there has never been an answer.

but we do know that a sentinal can touch a soaring fig in close combat...so they are closer to the ground than the clouds!!

wes

[Magnito]

Sentinels can fly. You are all forgetting this. If he is halfway, he can rage both, or go up or down as needed.

[iam_emperor]

Originally posted by admironheart

I guess the sentinal rules give us an insight to how how a soaring figure is... Not much higher than a sentinal!!!!

'nuff said!'

so :p to everyone who argues that soaring figs must be super high in the air...

Sentinels are considered adjacent to figures on ground level, elevated terrain, and Soaring figures. Soaring figures do get ranged attacks on them with full range. Why is this you ask? Well its because they are big enough for the soaring figure to SEE them from SUPER HIGH in the air. Not because the sentinel is SUPER TALL. Why Close combat attacks? Because the sentinel has good range with those large fists. Maybe he jumps. I dont know. Point is, there is 2 levels of elevation is all we get. Same thing with 2 levels of Flight.

Why is a hovering character not hovering at Elevated terrain level? I saw that Spider-man movie and that Green Goblin fellow was interacting with ground people from upper balcony height.

[Canada Maestro]

Originally posted by admironheart
so somewhere between 10 and 100 feet maybe.

the game has a sentinal that is around......

40' tall....I think that most of the sentinals where close to that range.

Soaring figures could actually be only half this distance high...and still be attacked...while elevated terrain could be much higher than the soarer...
anything other than speculation is just so much hooing and hawing as there has never been an answer.

but we do know that a sentinal can touch a soaring fig in close combat...so they are closer to the ground than the clouds!!

wes

Ok, a few things (that are useless in terms of the rules), nowhere does it say that the Sentinel is drawn to scale. Many of the characters are exaggerated or made to fit. As mentioned earlier, Sentinels can fly. Also, they've been known to extend their hands or have tentacles. All of this (and probably more) could be used as an excuse for close combat with soaring figures.

But in the end, it doesn't matter. The rules don't always make sense in the "real" world (Wasp carrying the Thing while Thing can't carry Wasp among other things). They are made for the game. Just because a Sentinel and soarer can make close combat attacks doesn't necessarily mean you can make assumptions about the height/size of one or the other. Have you ever played chess? Do you think all the knights from history could only move in the form of an 'L"? It's just part of the rules of the game.

[T_Darksoul]

For what it is worth.

According to the Marvel Role Playing Game the Sentinels are 20 feet tall and according to the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe the Sentinels are 26 feet tall.

And Galactus is 28 feet tall.

[admironheart]

yes sentinals may fly, jump, turn into the stay-puff man.

like I said...speculation is somuch hooing and hawwing.

Now why don't you use your same comments on folks who make up speculation why a soaring figure does not block LOF or movement or whatever...

the rules for soaring are that they block movement like any other figure and they block LOF like any other figure [with a few noted exceptions]

So your answer is exactly what is needed for those humbugs that say this and that about soaring, because it should be this way, not that way, etc.


in your words...: "But in the end, it doesn't matter. The rules don't always make sense in the "real" world ... It's just part of the rules of the game."

thank you for making my point about soaring figs...the it's not realistic attitude around here is just so much white-wash..lets play the facts!!

later
wes

[shin-goji]

A Sentinel can only have a hand to hand attack to a soaring figure if it is adjacent to the soaring figure. A Sentinel is adjacent to a soaring figure if the soaring figure occuspies one of the 12 squares surrounding the sentinel.

[Canada Maestro]

Originally posted by admironheart
yes sentinals may fly, jump, turn into the stay-puff man.

<<snip>>

Now why don't you use your same comments on folks who make up speculation why a soaring figure does not block LOF or movement or whatever...


The stay-puff marshmallow man? I must have missed that issue but then again I'm not a huge X-Men fan :) If only the Human Torch was a member.... yum!

As to why I don't use my same comments on others, I don't really like to get dragged into debates about rule changes or stuff that just seems to be people not being happy with whatever rule or whatever character. What good would it do for me?

As well, why would anyone take my comments for any weight? I just play the game with some friends. Out of my group I keep up with the rules the most so I figured why not kill some of my free time helping others.

I only started with this thread to help you out with the Sentinels rules. I did get a little more involved in this discussion than I usually like but I'm tired.

Oh yeah, I may have been off on the height of the Sentinels. A quick search shows most were around the 20 foot range (the first batch was much smaller). There were a few from the future or something that were about 60 feet (these may have been the ones from the Days of Future Past storyline). But of course this has no bearing on the game.

[admironheart]

Hey I have been out of comics for almost 15 years now.

I do remember some of those 60' monsters though.

I agree with you; on I think just about all of your comments.

Most players try to make a personal rational decision to make sense of a rule. Some are simple and common...and some are way out there.

Example:
When a rules states that you make a move action to move Thing 6 spaces...almost none of us has difficulty understanding/visualizing the rational for this concept.

recently many folks and I have been debating Soaring figures. and many folks give 'interpretations' of the rules/faqs based on there personal rational for soaring figs.
Mine happen to be different.

In my personal rational I assume most buildings in the game to be 3 or 4 stories high[about 40'] some folks may consider their buildings to be no taller than a common trailer...no big deal it has no effect on the game rules.

When certain rules concering flyers who are soaring arose many folks have a pre-determined idea how high soaring is and then misinterpret rules based on that flawed perspective.

example: some think that a soaring figure does not block LOF from one grounded figure to another grounded figure. Which is totally incorrect.

I myself look at the sentinal and see a model that stands under 40' tall and since it CAN indeed attack a soaring figure in close combat, I envision the soaring figure to be that level or lower.
[hovering figs are considered low enough to interact with non-flyers] So I assume most grounded figures such as Thugs can not affect anyone over 15'. So I personally envision a hovering character to be 15' or less or around there, it makes no real difference. Now soaring figures can be anything above that in my opinion. 'Way above the battlefield' in the subjective tense can mean many things. For me....25' in the air iw Way up there!

Just like somone said that a sentinal could fly. Hey if they want to envision that the said Sentinal is basing my adjacent Lackey and at the same time flying way up in the air to hit a soaring figure however high they think...so much more imagination to them! I think it is a waxky way of looking at it, but hey that is me.

So if I think that a 25' tall sentinal is battling a soaring figure at 20' and that an elevated attacker is on a building at 30'[above the soaring figure] no big deal that is just me.

The Issue I have is when these'JOES' start making their 'evisioned realities' the bases for rewriting the rules.

A soaring figure does block line of fire between grounded figures targeting grounded figures.
And from the rules/faqs it would seem that elevated attackers do indeed have blocked LOF from a soaring figure to a grounded target.

These so called 'JOES' do not quote rules for their arguments....They spout 'realistic',... 'there is no way'... 'It's not possible', etc and any other personalized imaginings to try to prove that the written rules are dumb.

Hey maybe the rules are dumb/ poorly written, but when discussing them at least they should use 'game mechanics' to make their points [which many do] Just like you did.

thanks for your info..
;)
wes