Mind Control/Outwit Combo move - Legal?

[thornnspear]

Ok, another Mind control/super powers situation:

Opponent has R Black Panther, Thanos, you have V Mr. Fantastic and Enchantress.

You outwit (assume Mr fantasitc has outwit showing) Black Panther's outwit.

Your opponent does some other stuff, but black panther stays out of hindering terrain.

Next turn, you MC black panther. You use Outwit on thanos' invul, and take a swipe with Black Panther. Then you shoot Thanos with Mr. Fantastic.

You're opponents turn....outwit is still on, right? so he can turn it off (optional power) but cannot turn it on again on his turn? (Optional powers cannot be "toggled" more than once per turn)

So next turn, you repeat the process, until Black Panther pushes and loses outwit.

You effectively prevent your opponent from ever using outwit, provided you get in there first...had he used it before the M/C, you could turn it off, but not switch targets, right?

[AbeNookie]

Hmmmm. Im not sure you can use a MC'd figures outwit. This would be my argument against:

Outwit cannot be used during an action (as per FAQ/PAC). When you mind control a figure you must immediately take an action with him. Therefore as soon as you successfully roll your MC attack you are then taking an action with target. As soon as this action is over the figure returns to the control of your opponent.

I cant see the "gap" in actions where you can use outwit.

That was my first thought on the subject, unless a judge rules anything definate I'll come back with any other ideas I have, nice question btw :)

If you can use it, it would end at the the beggining of your opponents turn anyway (from PAC: That power remains cancelled until the beginning of your next turn.), so he would be free to outwit something else.

[thornnspear]

The point of the combo is that

1) The MC'd figures are friendly

2) All powers are at your disposal (PC and Perplex have been ok'd for use during Mind Control, so why not outwit?)

3) Outwit ends on YOUR next turn (turn of current owner of the figure) so it ends on YOUR next turn, not your opponent's! Your opponent could push the Outwitting person so they take damage and lose outwit (if you were to outwit a more critical superpower) but from what I see in rulings, they're stuck.

[Tsannik]

Opponent has R Black Panther, Thanos, you have V Mr. Fantastic and Enchantress.

You outwit (assume Mr fantasitc has outwit showing) Black Panther's outwit (assuming B-Panther is not Stealthed)

Your opponent does some other stuff, but black panther stays out of hindering terrain. (Outwit is still gone)

Beginning of your (Outwit comes back for B-Panther) Next turn, you MC black panther. You use Outwit on thanos' invul, and take a swipe with Black Panther. Then you shoot Thanos with Mr. Fantastic.

Your opponents turn....outwit is still available. so he can turn it off (optional power) but cannot turn it on again on his turn. I don't know why he'd turn it off...
(Optional powers cannot be "toggled" more than once per turn)

[i]Yes, powers and team abilities can be turned off before or after an action, but will stay off until the end of the current turn. Though you Outwitted Invulnerability during your turn, he would be able to use Outwit with B-Panther (as it was not Outwitted by Fantastic).


Am I getting what you're trying to explain here?

[*!Arkangel!*]

I would think that you could use the mind controlled character's outwit, but that this would not prevent that character's controller from using the outwit on his turn. If the mind controlled character is only considered "friendly" on your turn when under your control, and then reverts back to an enemy at the end of your turn, your opponent should be able to use the outwit....Plus in the rulebook it says that "once during your turn" you may outwit a power, and that that power returns immediately at the beginning of your next turn...This does not imply that outwit cannot be used two turns in a row if the character is being mind controlled...However, if the character outwitted something on your opponent's turn, and then you mind controlled that character and outwitted something on your turn, I believe that the power your opponent outwitted would return immediately...Also, when the mind controlled character reverted back to your opponent's control, the power you outwitted should return immediately....Thus the scenario of MCing your opponent's Black Panther to outwit Thanos' invuln and then smacking him would work, but your opponent can use Black Panther's outwit on his next turn and Thanos' invuln would return...It would not make sense to MC Black Panther to, say, outwit your opponent's Firelord's RCE though, since your opponent would get the RCE back at the beginning of his turn....I am not a judge or anything, but I think that this is the correct way it would work:)

[thornnspear]

Ok, I turn outwit ON during the MC (my turn) PAC says outwits stays on until the beginning of my turn. I am assuming this is the beginning of the controlling players turn, this this case mine.

After it is over, as I toggled the optional power on, he cannot toggle it "off" during my turn because once turned on or off, a power cannot be toggled again (as per a ruling regarding impervious and MC)

Therefore on his turn, his outwit is useless. I was mistaken in my second post, he CAN turn outwit off (regaining invulnerability on thanos) but as he just turned an optional power OFF, he cannot, on the same turn, turn it back ON. Again, my precedent is the ruling on Impervious and MC.

So therefore the heart of this question is: When I MC an opposing piece and use their Outwit, does it last until the beginning of MY next turn, or my opponents? (PAC says YOUR)

[thornnspear]

RCE is perhaps a better example. (Thanks Arkangel)

I MC Panther and Outwit RCE on Firelord. Outwit is turned on, and the PAC says the power will last until the beginning of my next turn.

On my opponents Turn, Outwit is still on, but he chooses to turn it off, as he wants to use RCE. He cannot turn it on again, b/c he turned it off this turn.

The difference from the Impervious ruling is that the MCer is turning the power off (in the case of Impervious), and who would want to leave imperviosu off? Of course the other player immediately turns it on when his turn begins.

On the other hand, outwit is being turned on, and as I read it, STAYS ON, so all he can do is turn it off. If he turns it off on his turn, he cannot turn it back on on the same turn - outwit is effectively useless to him that turn.



*********Using word play to make it more confusing.*******

I am incapacitting his outwit. OR

I am outwitting (with my pieces and tactics and rules lawyering) his outwit (a super power printed on the dial or granted by a superman enemy team ability)

[thornnspear]

hoping for a ruling on this before a tournament tomorrow...

[Tsannik]

Okay...

The owning player can turn off any powers or team abilities at any time during their turn or your turn.... before or after an action.

So, even though you used his Outwit, he could immediately turn it off (when the figure is returned back to his control during your turn). When it becomes his turn, the power is turned back on and is available for use by him.

When I MC an opposing piece and use their Outwit, does it last until the beginning of MY next turn, or my opponents? (PAC says YOUR)

The Outwit would stay until the beginning of your next turn (as opposed to your opopnents next turn). Unless he turns off Outwit, or loses Outwit by some other means.

I MC Panther and Outwit RCE on Firelord. Outwit is turned on, and the PAC says the power will last until the beginning of my next turn.
On my opponents Turn, Outwit is still on, but he chooses to turn it off, as he wants to use RCE. He cannot turn it on again, b/c he turned it off this turn.

This is completely true.

Technically.... ALL powers and team abilities are considered to be ON at the begginning of the turn unless specifically declared OFF.

Powers and team abilities declared to be off will stay off until the end of the current turn.

This make sense?

[thornnspear]

Technically.... ALL powers and team abilities are considered to be ON at the begginning of the turn unless specifically declared OFF.

So Outwit, while not being used, is considered to be ON.

Definition of ON: Activated OR available for use.

So if I use his outwit, he can still turn it off immediately after the MC ends, as I did not turn it on, it was on from the beginning of his turn. (even if it was not being used)

Then on the beginng of his turn, it resets to the ON postion (meaning available for use)

I definitely see your point, but it relies on the definition of a power being ON as being available for use. Is this what you mean to imply? I would assume, prior to this ruling that a power is on when it is being used (ie super strength, CCE, Impervious).

Based on your definition of on, if a piece with mind control or incapacitate attacks, and the owner fails to specify that one or both powers are OFF, they automatically incapacitate or mind control and do no damage! MechWarrior rules specify that if you do not decalre WITH EACH ATTACK what damage method you are using it defaults to the primary. Is this true also with incapacitate and other seldom used optional powers that are considered on unless specifically declared off? This could be a truly annoying but legal tactic in tournaments.

"batman attacks your medic...I need 3 or better to hit."
"ok"
"I roll a 6, so I hit, take 3 clicks"
"Nope. You never declared incapacitate to be off. the medic is incapacitated. No harm done."
"What?!?"
"Just ask Tsannik...."

the smae could be done with energy explosion, pulse wave (my word that could be abused if not specifically decalred to be off). How about barrier and Smoke cloud? THey are optional powers, such that you may or may not activate them, not that the charachters automatically genreate smoke or barriers instead of moving unless said powers are declared to be off.

Impervious is a difficult power to define. It is an optional defense power. (why optional, we have no idea) but it means the controller can opt to or not to use it. MC is dangerous b/c you can turn it off and they cannot turn it back on. But does optional mean always on unless specifically turned off?


So now my question is....what does optional mean, and what does a power being "on" mean?

[Tsannik]

Yeah... it's very weird... but it's what's supposed to happen.

batman attacks your medic...I need 3 or better to hit."
"ok"
"I roll a 6, so I hit, take 3 clicks"
"Nope. You never declared incapacitate to be off. the medic is incapacitated. No harm done."
"What?!?"
"Just ask Tsannik..he is the best guy ever!...."

Everything in this scenario would have been played correct. Even the homage to me! :p

But no one I know (not even me) plays exactly this way. I know that if I want to attack you with Batman... all my attacks are understood to be for damage until I declare Incapacitate. So, this ruling, while legal, also depends on your metagame.

what does optional mean, and what does a power being "on" mean?
From my consolidated FAQ:
If a power or team ability is described as being ‘Optional’, the controlling player can cancel the power at any time before or after an action is made.
From the rulebook:
Super powers are in effect as long as they appear in the stat slot. If a super power is described as optional, it is assumed that the character is using that power unless the player controlling that character states that the power is being canceled. The owning player may cancel the effect at any time, in which case it is canceled until the end of the current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, it is assumed to be in effect again
So, I guess Activated or Available for use would be good for a definition.


I'm sure that I'm correct on this, but let me get someone else to chime in here...

[HeroComplex]

Tsannik's answers appear exactly right. I'm jabbing them with a pointy stick, but they're holding up to the scrutiny.

[Jean_genie]

The other thing to bear in mind is that if this Mind Control trick was able to gyp another person out of using their Outwit, then the same rule would have to prevent you from using it on the turn that you MC'ed that figure.

Also, I was under the impression that unless you declare you're using a super-power, you default to the normal printied damage in HC as well. I haven't read the rulebook in a while, but I think it said that you need to declare super-powers, except for RCE, CCE, and Super Strength (when you have an object), which are all use automatically, unless soemthing else prevents it. I know I've had matches where I didn't get to use Incapacitate of B/C/F because I didn't declare it, and the judge ruled that it defaulted to the printed damage.

[Tsannik]

I was under the impression that unless you declare you're using a super-power, you default to the normal printied damage in HC as well.

Like I said... technically this is not the case. But not very many people actually play it this way.

If the Judge ruled that way, then it was probably under the assumption that everyone was playing 'powers are not used until declared' type of play.

If the judge says he ruled that way because the rules state so, then he will be in error.

[thornnspear]

Very clear now (I think) <grin>

I rest my case.

[TheEnigma]

Around here it depends on what the specific action you're taking is. For "alternate effect" powers, we generally require a declaration while the target is chosen i.e. "I'm attacking your Shield Medic" is not the same as "I'm Incapacitating your Shield Medic". Same with Pulse Wave/EE, these have an outcome different from "Shield Medic takes X clicks". Powers that simply improve the attack (RCE adds to damage, B/C/F replaces it but doesn't otherwise change the mechanics of the attack) are considered to be automatic unless declared otherwise.

We wholeheartedly endorse Tsannik's idea of ON to mean "Active or Available".