Recent Articles on WizKids' Heroclix Site

[RavenProject]

Okay, before we get into this, please read the following:

Have a Gouda Time? (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/gameresources.asp?cid=37558)

300 in Balance (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/gameresources.asp?cid=37557)

Done? Good, let's proceed.

I actually appreciate what the WK staff is trying to do with these articles. The first, discussing "cheese" and how we should be there to have fun, is a cute little "rah-rah" piece. The second discusses the idea of whole-team coordination and play strategy. As general ideas, these are solid concepts to promote.

However, they lose it in the specifics... and unfortunately, each one kinda feeds into the other.

The "Gouda" article probably had a lot of people shaking their head sternly and saying, "Yes, those bad, bad powergamers, they are a blight upon our society." But it doesn't do anything to *solve* the problem. If someone is indeed the kind of schmuck the article discusses, they simply *don't care.*

The core failure in this article lies on one sentence: "Mr. Gouda is first and foremost a collector and less a player."

Here, let me give you Mr. Gouda's response in an intellgent fashion:

"HeroClix is based on comic characters, but it's also a game. I choose to play the game WizKids created, by the rules they created. If you want to play a 'fun' game, you're welcome to play any time you want. But in a sanctioned tournament, we're there to play the game, and I'm there to win by whatever legal means I can."

We all know this is a frustrating response, but it is still his prerogative to play the game as he sees fit just as you choose to play the game as you see fit. Just clucking your tongue and saying, "Shame, shame" will not dissuade them.

So how *do* you stop them?

In sanctioned tourneys, talk to your Judge. If the powergamer is simply being a jerk and ruining people's fun, then he is well within his rights to ban the player. This accounts for behavior like extreme poor sportsmanship, including stalling, but should *not* be applied to the teams he plays or the stragteies he employs. As long as he is following the rules, you should not ban him.

By that same token, I don't recommend using House Rules to simply legislate the problem away. I've had extensive experience dealing with powergamers over the years in RPGs, LARP and now minatures. You may think that banning the most obvious problems will be the solution, but to a true powergamer part of the fun is finding ways to take advantage of the system. If you eliminate one trick, then they'll simply find another. It never ends.

Your Judge can, however, use his power to create Scenarios to prevent the powergamer from sticking to one trick over and over again. Special team-building rules or stipulations encourage gameplay that is both fun *and* competitive, and keeps the powergamers off-balance because what works in one setting may be certain death in another. Truly skilled players, as opposed to powergamers, can rise to the challenge.

What about you, the average player? What can you do to help eliminate the scourge of the cheesemonkey?

Beat him.

And no, that does not mean "fight fire with fire." You don't need to build your own multi-Firelord team just to win. But you need to be aware that they're out there, and you need to develop your team and your strategy accordingly.

Speaking only for myself, I've won tourneys using teams that were both fun and strong. Two versions of my Spider-Villain team. My DC Bad Guy team. Two versions of my HeroChix team. Sometimes it takes a little stretching, I'll admit -- like putting a Hobgoblin figure on a Doombot base, long as I remember to remind people throughout the match -- but I build my teams for fun and winning in equal measure.

And I've beaten Firelord teams. I've beaten Batman teams. I've beaten Batman/Superman/Wildcard teams. And I've watched other players do even worse... completely *demolish* cheese teams using totally lactose-free forces.

That, more than anything else, is how my main group dealt with the Firelord problem. We beat the living daylights out of it. When the players who ran cheese teams and relied on turtling and stalling realized they were getting their butts whipped anyway, they stopped coming. Because now, *they* were the ones who weren't having fun.

Now I know, because of the way the game is constructed this does kinda rule out playing certain combos in tourney play. But if you want *only* fun play, arrange fun play. In a tourney, bring your "A" game because you know others will.

Which brings me to the second article. (Really, I was leading here all along. ;))

As I said at the start of this post, I do commend the writer for looking at the idea of a team as a unified whole, considering the role each is expected to play in the battle. It's a well-rounded approach that single-figure reviewers like azs and I can only touch upon. He also goes on to discuss strategy for using that force in battle. These are good things to consider. I'm not certain what I personally think of the team he created, but his presentation is solid.

The problem here is that the team article, strong as it may be, is incredibly inconsistent with the article most of us read *immediately* before it. We've just read an article about how HeroClix is supposed to be about creating battles from the comic books, and how people who play with teams built to win just don't get it. Then we come back and read about a "balanced" force which combines heroes and villains, has no sense of thematic unity, features lesser cheese in the Vulture taxi and then compounds the problem by running duplicates of that figure, and touts having "only one Unique" but that Unique is the single hardest one to get.

So which is it, guys? Despite being written by different Judges, by placing them on the HeroClix page WizKids has cast them as their official viewpoints. This contradicatory view coming from the game's *source* causes the confusion we see among the player base, rather than easing it.

What the player base -- the *entire* player base -- needs to accept is that you simply can't polarize the game into "fun play" and "powergamer" and expect it to stand. It is definitely possible, however, to do both at once. Doing so requires a shared responsibility by the players, Judges, and WizKids to communicate ways of "having it all."

-J

PS:

In the interest of balanced coverage, WizKids has done several articles that I found very useful for HeroClix players, especially newbies. These include:

Deconstructing Firelord (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/gameresources.asp?cid=37508)

Top Ten HeroClix Pointers (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/gameresources.asp?cid=37442)

Marvel HeroClix Basic Team Building (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/marvel/gameresources.asp?cid=37421)

The Women of Hypertime (http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix/dc/gameresources.asp?cid=37521)

[shin-goji]

The thing is, the Gouda article does nothing to really suggest a solution. This makes two articles dealing with the F-Lord player. I don't think there is a solution to the problem either. The virus is in the community and there is no vaccine. you can either talk to the player, or don't play him. In a tourney, that's hard to do. We all have to deal with the fact that the figure is in our midst, and WK cannot do anything about it. I just lost twice to the same guy today, and I even used two FLords against his F-Lords. The only solution, sometimes, is to combat him with his own army. The guy I played is a nice guy, just not all that bright when it comes to the people around him nothaving any fun. HC playing has dangerously dwindled at my venue. I won't go so far as to say it is because of him. In a non-tourney game I want to tell him that I'll play him under a no named duplicates rule, so he can't use two at the same time.

I hate to say something like this, but when you know someone is bringing this team to the table, you may just be better off not playing them. If they are rude, snide, and obnoxious, then you really don't want to play them. If you win, it will be by the skin of your teeth, if you lose, your whole day may be shot because of it.

In the end, I don't think the Gouda article will have any real, lasting, noticable impact.

[Noman]

In playing Heroclix, I have yet to run across an obnoxious or, as we say over here, "bolshy" player.

I've seen one player refuse to play in the second round, having lost embarisingly in the first, which spoilt the competition somewhat.

I have heard one (adult) player exasperatedly, and quite reasonably, tell a 13 year old in tournament play "read the rulebook before you play me again..."

As far as "Cheese" goes, out of 7 tournaments I have run or played in, none I have yet seen over here has allowed dupes, and a team with a Firelord on it has only taken 1st place once (and I was playing it.)

I think the attitude of the player is far more important than the team they pick, or whether they use an exhustive knowledge of the rulebook and it's loopholes to win...

I HAVE seen a classic Powergamer playing Mechwarrior though - and he didn't win the tournament - due to good play on the part of the eventual winner, who he hadn't played at any point. I played the Powergamer, though, and quickly realised a) I would lose, and b) I could learn a lot about the game at every turn. I asked continual questions, and lost gracefully.

What I object to (when I encounter it) are arogance or a lack of politeness, or any attempt to bully or intimidate others. I would include in this a player I encountered in a multi player CCG once, who simply argued and argued with every action by every player which had any impact on him, basicaly claiming to have a greater knowledge of the game than everyone else, untill the GM asked him to leave. Not because he was wrong - he was, in general, right - but because he was an arogant, rude and unpleasent individual, with whom no one present wished to spend what remained of the afternoon.

At least Heroclix seems full of Game Players rather than Rulemongers.

All the Best

Noman

[Manchine]

Easiest and best way to deal with Power Gamers. Ban Dup's. It really cuts down on power gaming. Plan and simple.

[ludd_gang]

One possible way to make tourneys geared towards fun would be to award TWO level 3 LE fellowship awards and ONE level 4 LE for first place.

Or, if they made LE's a bit less scarce so that winning tourneys wasn't so "important". I dunno..... hmmmm..... maybe let the average player redeem Clix Points for them. :)

The prize support really does add spice to the tourneys- I'm glad they do it. However, I'd love to see one of these powergamers pull a real class act- next time they pull "another LE Manbat", instead of complaining that it wasn't Arthur Curry, give it to one of the kids or someone that's cool. That's a lot more fun than hocking it on E-bay.

[Jackalope]

I toatally agree with ludd_gang. While I think multiple figures at this point is very lame (when it was just IC sometimes it happend) when you are taking about a figure that you can sell for 30-50 bucks, I can see the "I'm gonna try to win" players. If Wizkids wants to address this they would make the points redeamable for LE's or come up with something else. Maybe amend thier rules to include no non-generic dupes in Sanctioned Tournyes. I doubt they will address this but it would be nice before most people say "Forget it".

[shin-goji]

Suffice it to say that the cat is out of the bag, or Firelord's box has been opened :) Hope would be the good grace of your fellow players. but you tend to be able to identify the arrogant players by their teams and smug looks. When they start openly insulting you because your team "s*cks" just because they have FLord, then that's something i look out for as a judge. Our venue is in the back of the city's biggest comic shop. They have a list of rules showing what appropriate behavior is. Once I saw something like that, I would take the player aside and tell them they would have to play nice" or forfiet [sp?] their place. If that did not work then award 150 points to their opponent and tell the rude player, "nice knowing you."

[RavenProject]

Originally posted by Manchine
Easiest and best way to deal with Power Gamers. Ban Dup's. It really cuts down on power gaming. Plan and simple.

To quote myself...

You may think that banning the most obvious problems will be the solution, but to a true powergamer part of the fun is finding ways to take advantage of the system. If you eliminate one trick, then they'll simply find another. It never ends.

When you're dealing with players who specialize in "abusing" the system, then new rules are not going to eliminate the problem. The powergamer will simply find a way to exploit the new rules set.

The Judge, meanwhile, has trapped himself in a game of leapfrog. The powergamer finds a trick, the Judge uses a House Rule to eliminate it. The powergamer finds a new trick, so now the Judge has to make a House Rule against that as well. Once that pattern starts, it's not long before "legitimate" players are getting restricted by the rules established to handle the powergamer.

However, there are a couple things that go hand-in-hand in dealing with a powergamer. Most of them are arrogant pricks whose participation diminishes group enjoyment. If someone is fielding a "cheesy" team but remains fun to play with, you probably wouldn't complain. But when you're dealing with someone who is arrogant, insulting, and generally a drag on the whole night then the Judge is within his rights asking him to adjust his attitude before playing again. If the negative behavior persists, then throw the guy out.

Just be certain of your reasons for doing so. Using an example above, don't throw the guy out for using a Firelord team. Throw him out for insulting his fellow players, bashing their teams, and for behavior which made the game less enjoyable for everyone.

-J

[Xavier PhD]

i think its just a cop out to say that fixing the rules would just let the "powergamer" find new rules to abuse and i think its an even bigger cop out to blame "powergamers" for the other player's lack of "fun."

lets get real "powergamers"= virus? HA! the obvious felon is the rules. did anyone ever acuse Bobby Fischer of "powergaming' because he used the rules of chess to his full advantgage? NO.

cutthroat is the way a tournament should be... that is "fun" for some poeple. if you have fun not being competitive then fine, don't play in tournaments. tournaments are a COMPETITION. and as we all know, competition is best man wins. and what decides the best player? a player who ignores the rules or a player who uses the rules to his advantage?

in a game that isn't broken... there is no such thing as "powergaming." take chess as an example. so perfecting the rules would solve all of these problems. of course there will always be dominant strategies and figures... but that is playing the game not powergaming.

tournaments are not the problem, prizes aren't the problem, people using the rules aren't the problem... the problem are the rules themselves.

the stench of cheese is a byproduct of rules... not the players who use the rules and it doesn't matter how many articles wizkids puts out... the game is broken until someone sits down and fixes the obvious flaws in the game.

[HeroComplex]

Originally posted by RavenProject
So which is it, guys? Despite being written by different Judges, by placing them on the HeroClix page WizKids has cast them as their official viewpoints. This contradicatory view coming from the game's *source* causes the confusion we see among the player base, rather than easing it.This is where we disagree. I admit that it's ironic to have two articles with different philosophies juxtaposed like that, but that is the extent of it. These are in no way meant to be the official stances of the company. If two Judges wrote pieces, one of them praising Nightcrawler because HSS is godlike and the other deconstructing why HSS is useless, there would be nothing stopping WizKids from putting them both on the site, provided they were both well-written.

The official site is becoming an outlet and resource for analysis and tips regarding the game, but beyond that---don't assume that those analyses are meant to be coming from the company.

[Noman]

The articles don't come from the company, true, but the rulebook does !

Update and clarify the Rulebook (assumedly with the Indy release) and lose the FAQ. At least that would level the playing field somewhat...


LoL

All the Best

Noman

[bobk815]

THe rulebook should RULE!!
Indeed there are many non specific rules layed out that leave room for interpretation. There is a so simple solution,and suprize, its in the rule book. If there is a question or disagreement then roll the dice. Let the dice decide. All this rules lawyer #### only developes when there is a venue for the discourse. This means the FAQ and the whole ruling class that has developed.

If one compares this game with the computer gaming world. We were presented whith what was a BETA level product. All the physics were not worked out and the player was left to dicover the "bugs". This is generally repaired with a "patch".

The FAQ is obviously that mechanism. But Having to patch over and over and over is simply not acceptable in any product. Lets request / demand /beg Wizkids to end the FAQ, print up a once and for all set of rules for this "edition" of the game and settle the minor issues left over in a sportsman like manner. This would include respecting the authority of the arbitrators at tourneys. NOT JUDGES but arbitrators who would not try to reinterpret the rules as printed but simply roll the dice and declare the issue settled fr that game.
Fun not LAW. That is what I crave.

[Manchine]

RavenProject sure they will find other ways but its still the best and easiest way to deal with power gamers. Power Gamers are all about the win. Anyone who plays multiple firelords is only worried about the win.

[proditor]

Maybe I'm being naive, but what if they included one other thing in the tourney's? Army selection. Games Workshop does it for it's big tourneys. You get points based on how your army is built. Did you load up an 3 firelords? That's not a balanced team and it violates the spirit if not the rules of the game. In the end, you might get (for example) 500 out of a thousand possible points by winning every game you fight. And then 100 for army selection. Your competition wins half his games, gets 250 points, but then had a balanced well thought out team and gets 400 for army selection. Guess what? He just beat you and took first place.

[SgtHulka]

Well, at my venue, that Nightcrawler team would get spanked. There are so many problems and easy counters (meaning, literally, the counters) to it it's not even worth going into.

The Gouda article is a typical BS response to a flawed points system. As has been mentioned in previous replies, calling someone out as a cheese-head will only encourage them to kick your butt that much more decisively. The only way to change their behavior is to defeat them with a non-"cheese" team, which is easy against morons but very difficult against someone who really knows what they're doing.

I'm fairly optimistic that Xplosion will change the game a lot. Thing, She-Hulk, Thor and Doctor Octopus have already created some new possibilities, and now perplex will be to Marvel what Outwit is to DC. A lot more thought will have to go into the tactical aspect of the game...even if it's as simple as figuring out exactly WHAT to perplex that turn. Firelord and Bullseye won't become obsolete, but the fact that they lose two points of damage when they're perplexed will mean that other, currently unfavored figures will become competative with them.

I hope that Wizkids eventually makes the switch to team-only sanctioned tournaments, because the real problem with the game is not Firelord and his friends, but medics. Deep dials are more of a liability than an advantage, and hardly anyone uses anything beyond the first two clicks before running off to a medic. This is why a lot of "name" characters like Spiderman, Mr. Fantastic and Captain America have such bad reputations. Superstrength/Charge characters are helping by creating more close combat engagements, but still...

[Xavier PhD]

Originally posted by HeroComplex
This is where we disagree. I admit that it's ironic to have two articles with different philosophies juxtaposed like that, but that is the extent of it. These are in no way meant to be the official stances of the company. If two Judges wrote pieces, one of them praising Nightcrawler because HSS is godlike and the other deconstructing why HSS is useless, there would be nothing stopping WizKids from putting them both on the site, provided they were both well-written.

The official site is becoming an outlet and resource for analysis and tips regarding the game, but beyond that---don't assume that those analyses are meant to be coming from the company.

but it in fact IS the official stance of the company. when you filter which article is posted and which isn't, then the articles that are chosen become pretty much the word of the company.

notice how all the articles are written... they pretty much all have a strong "heroclix is great no matter what!" propaganda twang attached to each article, because that is the official stance of wizkids. now wizkids wishes to smooth over problems that many players have with the environment of play that currently exists by posting an article made by a "peer." you must admit that a peer singing the praises of heroclix and how "powergaming" is not the way to play, is better than wizkids just putting a big real official post saying all of us should just suck it up and disregard the flaws in the game and not play to win.

[Shadowgt]

Yea, Dupes have been banned at my local venue and 95% play for fun. With banned dupes it has worked out great.

Everybody wants to win, but some people can't play without winning.

[Capt Crunch]

If every one ends up playing the same team basicaly, wouldn't it be easier just to pick up a game of chess? Essentialy that is what the game will turn into.

Part of the game's attraction is the strategy of team building and implementation...vs Chess which is all implementation since their is no team building component.

Simply this game is about inflicting more damage faster than your oponent while minimizing the damage you take. Figures that do great damage for the cost will always be prefered. Those that can do it from range will always be superior because they minimizing damage done to themselves.

I agree the articles are in direct conflict with the stated purpose of the game which is to recreate those epic battles from the comics, through the use and combination of teams/abilites and powers in fun and different ways. If the metagame becomes driven by 1 or 2 well defined and overused armies, and they consistently are in the money, then you have just created another version of chess...Chess is great, but that not what I want to play...

Just becuase a rule allows it doesn' mean its a good rule, or wil result in a fun game. I think Wizkids made the same mistake Wizards of The Coast did early on. Wizards never envisoned folks spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on their game, and they wanted folks just getting into the game to be able to play without a huge investment....

Well these two carticles are at odds. Perceived cheese does hurt gameplay and fun. Sure a kid with only 16 or 20 clix will need to play dupes, because that's all he has... However, the reality is if he likes the game he will get more figs...and the dupes issue goes away. Just like Wizards never envisoned folks could have an entire deck of lightning bolts, but thats what they got, so they had to change their tournament rules to limit the number of any one card. It made it not fun.

I feel the everyday game should be as close to the tournament game as possible, and clearly the no dupes except for rank and files (aim, agents, shield operatives, thugs,etc.) is clearly most folks preference and more closely represents the famous epic battles fought in the comics.