Ideas for Limiting OUTWIT

[ProfPower]

Outwit is a nutty, and awfully abused ability. I'm beginning to fear a rules overhaul in the works at WizKids, depending on how things go after the next two expansions. With that in mind, here are some ideas about how this overused power should be redefined.

Proposed ideas for limiting Outwit (vote on your favorite or add some of your own):

1: Outwit should cost an action.

2: Outwit should require a roll of the dice (as with Leadership)

3: Outwit should be limited to the range of the character using it (min range = base to base contact).

4: Only one outwit can be used per force per turn.

There we go. Ideas?

[darius_dax1]

5. Leave it as it is. There are enough FAQ and errata rulings we don't need more. This same thing happened in Magic the Gathering and it ruined the game for many.

[Random]

change is bad!

[darius_dax1]

Rules changes just clog the game up and you spend more time researching the errata than playing the game.

[Akakrz]

I agree completely, since when is outwit been a problem? If it isn't broken dont' fix it, stop ur complaining its annoying.

[fridayweb]

Originally posted by Akakrz
I agree completely, since when is outwit been a problem? If it isn't broken dont' fix it, stop ur complaining its annoying.

Not nearly as annoying as your mangling of the English language. This is a discussion forum. He's discussing. You knew what the topic was when you opened it, so why are YOU complaining?

I do think Outwit is overpowered in relation to Invulnerability, but that's about it. A free 2 damage at 10 Range without an action is pretty vicious, and it's why Invulnerability is rarely worth its point cost.

[Random]

you playing at Antioch this weekend Fridayweb?

[darius_dax1]

I disagree, Invulnerability is worth the cost because it ties up the outwitter from outwitting something else. Or perhaps the outwitter is outwitting Prob Control instead and Invulnerability goes untouched.

The stategy would be to take out the outwitter asap!

[razz10555]

if bizarro has the "no supermans allowed club" team ability & he's next to an intergang member will he really have outwit?

[darius_dax1]

as funny as that is yes he would!

[Thanosied]

I agree don't change it. Perplex is almost as bad and only Darkseid and V Mr.Fantastic have it with a power so they wont easily lose it. I think thats it. Well you change Outwit and all those characters that have it go to the ####ter.

[darius_dax1]

That's true (WOW! I'm agreeing with Thanoseid). Those figures were valued according to the power as it is. Re-structuring the power would mean re-structuring the point values of those figures that have Outwit. And then you end up with a great big mess!

[kdog13]

outwit has the should be left alone, thers nothing wrong with it, same rules for both teams not like it favors anyone.

[Thunderbolts]

You're complaining about Outwit in a Marvel forum. Two Marvel characters start with Outwit. Three more gain it halfway down the dial. A handful more gain a click or two of it right before they die. That's maybe 25 figures (counting REV and U) in a set of nearly 350.

Take it to the DC forum, where it's given out like candy (comboed with stuff like Bat-team Stealth, Super-senses, Impervious, etc.)

[PaxZRake]

There's nothing wrong with outwit. You don't even need to have an outwitter on your team if you're good enough of a player. It's one of many powers.

Now back in the day when I though I could use Super Strength with CCE and Charge, wow, I loved Doomsday I can tell you that much.

[shin-goji]

Again, why is this an issue. There are only two marvel figures that start with outwit. You really have to work to get to it. Sure it's bloated in DC, but not really an issue in Marvel.

[Heroclix?]

Outwit is fine as it is. Even in DC, Outwit is fine. There are SO many figs with valuable powers that Outwit only gives you a support power. And remember that most (or all) the figs with Invunerability/Impervious get Toughness later in the dial, and once Invunerability/Impervious turns to Toughness, another Outwit needs to be used to take THAT away. Add to that the fact that I usually see Outwit taking away either RCE or Toughness, and the fact that Outwit can't prevent taxiing, and its pretty balanced as it is. With the new 12" range characters in XPlosion, they will rain fire down at the Outwitters and their puny 10" range!

[ProfPower]

You're complaining about Outwit in a Marvel forum. Two Marvel characters start with Outwit. Three more gain it halfway down the dial. A handful more gain a click or two of it right before they die. That's maybe 25 figures (counting REV and U) in a set of nearly 350.

I post it here because:

A: It drives me nuts, you people who keep trying to draw a line between the two Clix genres. Let's face it, eventually there will be too many Clix expansions out there to easily be so divisive.

B: People read the marvel sections more often. Don't ask me why. I think its inane to separate into two forums fields to begin with.

:laugh:

[shin-goji]

Originally posted by ProfPower
I post it here because:

A: It drives me nuts, you people who keep trying to draw a line between the two Clix genres. Let's face it, eventually there will be too many Clix expansions out there to easily be so divisive.

But through legal reasons, they are required to seperate them. Plus some DC fans don't like reading about Marvel and vice versa.

B: People read the marvel sections more often. Don't ask me why. I think its inane to separate into two forums fields to begin with.

:laugh:

Laugh all you want, but it's inane to bring your point to a forum where the implied threat you talk about [lots of Outwit] doesn't exist.

[GoldenAge]

Outwit is fine as is...
However, we play an epic home-rules game and mix both DC and Marvel with up to 7 players fielding as many as 800 points each. To enhance the combination of two independant games we have chosen to reduce the influence of outwit:

1. Only works at existing range of clix (if 0 then 4)
2. Only works on defensive powers until clix takes damage

These ONLY work in a home-rules game and should never be used in tournament play!

[darius_dax1]

Works fine for house rules play or specialized tournaments.

But I think most detractors of Outwit are saying it should be changed for everything.

[GoldenAge]

QUOTE]Originally posted by darius_dax1
Works fine for house rules play or specialized tournaments.

But I think most detractors of Outwit are saying it should be changed for everything. [/QUOTE]

That's just silly (changing it for everything). How many times does shin-goji have to squash the hopes of simpletons.
The reason we tamper with Outwit in such a big game is simple. If you have players A-G (8 players each with 800 points of clix and at least 8 actions each on a 3d playing field) and A outwits the defenses of G's Thor... well, Thor NEVER makes it to G's turn. The only other time I've witnessed gamers scrambling for clix was when our local store put up an accidental sign just before Hypertime came out that said "New HeroClix 75% OFF!" (of course they were talking about IC thugs). It sucks when you field a clix like Thor and never even get to use him – oops, I said sucks.
Some people might argue that we STILL shouldn't tamper with Outwit, that we should use better strategy to keep our big guns out of harm's way.... Yah right. Those guys haven't witnessed the absolute unbridled stampede created by an OWAW Superman hiding, powerless behind Robin's smoke screen. Oh, its awful; The whole night sky is lit up with arcs of telekinetic energy and the contrails of former heroes and villains alike surging forward with murderous intent. 64 actions later and all that's left of the Blue Boy Scout is a distorted red and blue "S" that stands for Smear!

Oh, what fun though!!!

[darius_dax1]

GA,

I was ,and still am, agreeing with you. I don't think outwit should be changed but I think adapting it in house rules is fine, especially in the big games like you described.

[Druzil]

I agree with Thunderbolts. And besides, I've never seen outwit abused. What with line of sight and all, its really not as powerful as you migh think. (Though I almost always throw a E Black Panther in the mix if I can)
:grin:

[Miraclo]

Add another vote for leaving Outwit alone. It's hardly out of control - if anything I believe it to be under-represented since characters in comics regularly come up with ways to momentarily negate each others' powers.

If you want to go after something that makes little to no sense, then go after Perplex. I'm okay for keeping that as is, too, but I've still yet to have anyone explain to me how one is likely to "confuse" a teammate into shooting farther or shooting/hitting more accurately/harder. It seems like something that was originally intended to be used only to momentarily degrade an opponent's stat, but was left open to swing in a positive direction, too.

===MJN

[TychesCoin]

I think for the most part outwit is fine. I think it works perfectly in any game where inv/toughness doesn't play a major role. I'm not even sure I see a balance issue in the overall gameplay. What I do see is a imbalance between outwit's offensive and defensive usefulness. Outwitting Invulnerabilty depending on actions/attackers available and who the target is it can be a case of adding 4-6 points of damage per round. Plus its much easier to play around a defensive use of outwit, losing RCE for a turn probably doesn't cripple your options unless its very late game. When someone uses outwit offensively, they can immediately capitalize on it. To defend against it you have to play preemptively, watching lines of sight (or potential lines of sight which with vet panther can be a pain).

I'm not saying outwit needs an official rule change, but I find it alot of fun to occasionally play where the effect expires if a figure is damaged or healed. It makes inv stand up much better.

[docmartin72]

#2 sounds good, and makes the power more realistic.

shin-goji: Drop dead.

[warden]

Originally posted by ProfPower
Proposed ideas for limiting Outwit (vote on your favorite or add some of your own):

1: Outwit should cost an action.

2: Outwit should require a roll of the dice (as with Leadership)

3: Outwit should be limited to the range of the character using it (min range = base to base contact).

4: Only one outwit can be used per force per turn.

Option 3 looks interesting. It would make Black Panther join the action rather than sitting in a bush all the time, thinking deep thoughts.

What I've used in the past is reducing the effectiveness of Outwit against the defensive powers Invulnerability/Impervious, because that what unbalances the game most, hosing the expensive figures. If you Outwit Toughness, it goes completely. If you Outwit Invulnerability, it's reduced to Toughness. If you Outwit Impervious then it's reduced to Invulnerability. That way, you need three outwitters to make Superman helpless and that gives him a fighting chance against his enemies.

Andrew

[the itsy bit]

ouwit..

should definately be changed !

there's reason the Black Panther gets played so much in tournaments !
perplex runs rampant in Xplosion and some figs got it without having a good reason for it (maybe because WK changed their outwit to perplex at the last moment ?).

WK could better change outwit now then over a few sets:

1) it only lasts until the fig outwitted gets damaged.
2)the outwitter gets 1 damage for outwiitng a fig over 100 points (alá MC).
3) like said above: you need to roll for outwit.

pick one !

If played aggresively outwit has ALWAYS range now, because you can first move the fig and then outwit 10 range.
It severely hurts figs with Inv./Impv. because they cost lots of points for those abilities (see Juggernaut,Superman,Thanos,the Hulk,etc.).

[Castman]

Even though 95% of the folks so far have stated that Outwit should remain untouched I'm going out on a limb to join the minority.

I think it should at least have a range to it. I don't see how a figure on the other end of the table should be able to influence a figure he can't even attack just because he can see him.:confused:

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by Castman
Even though 95% of the folks so far have stated that Outwit should remain untouched I'm going out on a limb to join the minority.

I think it should at least have a range to it. I don't see how a figure on the other end of the table should be able to influence a figure he can't even attack just because he can see him.:confused:

Outwit does have a range. The range is 10 and needs to establish line of sight.

With the number of perplexers joining the fray in the next set, and the number of complainers complaining about this, I would think the outwitters would be too busy outwitting the perplexers to bother with invulnerability.

Message to all that want to change outwit: STOP! Do not heap more rules on an easy to learn system. The more rules and errata a game has the less fun it will be to play the game. Adapt a strategy to defeat outwit, perplex, and Firelord.
All we need is to have a hardcover, 200+ page rulebook being poured over by rules lawyers every time somebody tries to move from one end of the map to the other.

[hisshers]

Does anyone else think that the people who are whining about the rules, and are almost always wrong about the rules about which they are whining, should just take up "Go Fish" or "Connect Four" as a hobby?

[TheEnigma]

"What I've used in the past is reducing the effectiveness of Outwit against the defensive powers Invulnerability/Impervious, because that what unbalances the game most, hosing the expensive figures. If you Outwit Toughness, it goes completely. If you Outwit Invulnerability, it's reduced to Toughness. If you Outwit Impervious then it's reduced to Invulnerability. That way, you need three outwitters to make Superman helpless and that gives him a fighting chance against his enemies."

WTF? How is it that a flier who ignores terrain, possesses Hyper speed, and has Super Strength with what 10 clicks of life, needs any more of a chance against his enemies. This is the whole reason for Outwit. If you pick OWAW, I'd like to have at least some chance of winning the game without having to play with Hulk/Thing/Doomsday etc. It's a strategic power, designed to give everyone a chance to win. If you build your winning strategy against one inhumanly powerful character, then you run the risk of someone negating that character's power. If you don't have a backup plan other than "Superman will fly around the map and kill everything he sees" then you deserve to lose to a team of Outwitters. I'm so tired of hearing people whine about their favorite beatstick character getting taken out, because surely nobody can stop Juggy or Hulk except in thunderous hand-to-hand gladiator combat. I for one prefer to field characters who happen to usually do 2 damage or less but have a nice mix of powers, so should I just be S.O.L.?

[darius_dax1]

I think Invulnerability and Toughness needs to be changed as well. I believe that 1d6 should be rolled before the power is used, on a result of 1-4 it works on a result of 5-6 it backfires and delivers 1 click of damage to the character. This would represent the stupidity of trying to change the game to suit your personal needs.

Leave Outwit alone!
Leave Perplex alone!
And leave the rest of the rules alone!
If it isn't BORKEN, don't FEX it!

[docmartin72]

Beware...there have been some not nice responses to people against outwit in it's current form.

[darius_dax1]

Let's give Outwit the shapechange power or the skrull team ability and then we can change it whenever it pleases us.

[docmartin72]

Haven't you made your point enough? You're trying to be funny. We get it. Now play nice with others.

[darius_dax1]

I won't respond to that.

[PaxZRake]

Originally posted by darius_dax1
I won't respond to that.

You just did...

[kdog13]

how bout we beat the snot outta the guys with outwit so they dont have it anymore

[darius_dax1]

Originally posted by kdog13
how bout we beat the snot outta the guys with outwit so they dont have it anymore

That was just witless.

But, if you were talking about giving damage clix to figures with outwit to remove outwit or the outwitting figure from the game, I'm all for it! That is the solution to this problem.

Because if you change outwit then I propose we change invulnerability and toughness. I say that it is too much a defensive power. If an attack is successful then it should do at least one damage. Otherwise all of my 1 damage figures would be useless in a game.

What do you think?

See, this is a really bad idea to start changing powers and rules to suit your needs. Change your tactics. Not every HULK SMASH strategy will work. Sometimes it is better to outsmart than out pound your opponent.

[Deadfish]

On the orgional 4 ideas to vote for I choose #1. Its the easiest to implement-is as effective a "cost" to the user no matter what the point-level of the teams and makes R Black Panther a little more costly to play (that was for you Pilkington) but actually leaves the rules as-is (as-are?) intact but turns it into a SHIELD-team type usage.:rolleyes:

[Bloodsword]

If some one outwits a power, just moved out of range, or place another figure in the LOS and the power will be back.
Outwit needs LOS. If the character with out wit loses LOS on the character he is using it against, the power is reactivated.

[*!Arkangel!*]

I don't really see any problem at all with outwit as it currently is....It does give teams that aren't full of huge bruisers like supes, Hulk, Thor and others a chance to win.....In the comics characters generally win battles/altercations, etc. by either using their sheer power, or..............................By using their superior intelligence to OUTWIT their more powerful opponent....It is a more strategic power than most in the game, and must be used as such.....And it's not as if outwit is that excessively difficult to defeat.....I've defeated teams with three or four outwitters in them when I have only had one or two, based on a little mind control and a few well placed barriers.....No matter what power is out there, people will find a way to use it to thier advantage, and their opponent's disadvantage.....This is the point of STRATEGY.....Teams are not meant to be perfectly balanced.....Very few battles in the comics are perfectly balanced.....By restricting outwit, that will give characters with damage reduction powers like invuln free reign over all characters that deal less than three damage......Personally, I like using less powerful figs, but there would be no point without outwit since they would be unable to deal any damage.....I have played MTG for years, and have just been getting into Heroclix over the past six or seven months...I find the rules are well balanced to allow various strategies and counterstrategies a significant chance to win against each other....And I find it amusing that you all are complaining about a power like outwit.....You should come and play Magic for a while, and see how you like being slaughtered in the first three(or two, or one) turns of playing, if you cannot be competitive........

[darius_dax1]

Arkangel,

could you post a copy of this in the Let's fix this game thread? I think that it needs to be read there.

[whiptail]

i think because its so powerful thatoutwit should be an automatic push action (2 action tokens) but the character should take no push damage. just imobilized for one turn

but the thing is if you have someone with outwit aswell as the opposing armyyou can just outwit the other characters outwit .

[T_Darksoul]

Originally posted by Bloodsword
If some one outwits a power, just moved out of range, or place another figure in the LOS and the power will be back.
Outwit needs LOS. If the character with out wit loses LOS on the character he is using it against, the power is reactivated.

Sorry Bloodsword. You are incorrect. You only need LOF to Outwit a power or a figs ability to Soar. Once it is Outwitted it stays that way until

A. The begining of your next turn.
B. The Fig with Outwit is KO'ed or loses Outwit from taking damage or Outwit being Outwitted.

[*!Arkangel!*]

OK

[bzzzzbx]

My major beef with Outwit is only really when characters like Darkseid have it, he has impervious and retains outwit for 5 clicks of damage, so it takes one helluva lot of attacks / damage to make him lose it!

[JackAssterson]

Just like it takes a huge amount of damage to confound Darkseid in the comics. Hey, sounds good to me!

[TheEnigma]

Originally posted by Bloodsword
If some one outwits a power, just moved out of range, or place another figure in the LOS and the power will be back.
Outwit needs LOS. If the character with out wit loses LOS on the character he is using it against, the power is reactivated.

Unfortunately this is incorrect. LOS and range are only necessary to initiate the Outwitting. Once the power is off, it stays off until the beginning of the Outwit player's next turn, or the Outwit figure loses OW or is KO'd.