New WWE, new thread...

[LQBigCountry]

So last night HHH anounced the end of the brand split for the foreseeable future. I think this is something that has been about two years overdue(at least). I guess the questions that come from this will be what happens to the WWE and World Title, U.S. and I.C. title, and will there be guys who will stay brand loyal?

By staying brand loyal let me clarify and say that maybe the top 1/3 or so of the roster goes between Raw and Smackdown, but for the most part the lower card guys stay on a certain show. Obviously they don't need 60-80 wrestlers at Raw and 60-80 guys at Smackdown.

There is also talk that tonight's Live Smackdown(8/30/11) is a test run for Smackdown to move to Tuesdays permanently and be live every week. Is Tuesday night a better night for a live Smackdown? Or do you prefer to watch on a taped show Friday nights? Two years ago when WWE went PG i would have said to keep Smackdown on Friday nights so kids can stay up to watch without having to go to school the next day, but it seems like WWE is losing their kiddie demo lately. Personally as someone who has to watch Smackdown every week, i want my Friday nights back, so i'd be happy with a move to Tuesday!

[Arsenalroy2k]

I'm kind of disappointed the brand extension is being ended for the time being, since it conceptually would have allowed for each show to have their own roster and work with that. And each roster being unique gave guys on the undercard a decent shot at some airtime.

Unfortunately, more often than not, Smackdown's roster was given less to work with and that's in the rare occasions that the brand split was actually upheld. They treat it pretty liberally, and just plain throw it out the window in the weeks leading up to Wrestlemania.

Oh well. Nine years was a good run for the extension.

As far as Smackdown live goes, I'm of two minds of this. On one hand, I think it's a bad idea. The taped Smackdowns have a tendency to be more focused on the matches and allow for some decent in-ring time to them. Live Smackdowns just basically become Raw, which becomes promo/skit heavy. I'd just personally prefer a variety of programming than two shows that are essentially the same in tone.

But on the other hand, I have a lot of other shows I watch that air on Friday this fall; Fringe, Chuck, Supernatural. Add in Smackdown and that's a big block of TV. I wouldn't mind if they moved to Tuesdays to spread things out a bit.

[MechaFan]

Those are intresting news. How ever those bring new questions like how his possible brand split effects to quality of wrestling. After all so far Smackdown has offered over all better wrestling than Raw.

How ever having Smackdown live in thursdays instead of being taped and then prodcasted fridays is defenetly something that I could stand behind.

[PaxZRake]

I don't want Sheamus to be a face :(

[Thrumble Funk]

I don't want Sheamus to be a face :(

Eh, it can work. I'd like to see a new Batista.

[Thrumble Funk]

Is Tuesday night a better night for a live Smackdown?

It is for me. I do things on Friday nights. Even if I'm not out, I'm still hanging with the wife.

[spike1138]

I don't want Sheamus to be a face :(

I like Sheamus as a face. I can't really explain why but it works for me.

[Fredwood]

I like it on Tuesdays, (well on Thursdays anyway), Friday is just too busy for me and I never get to watch it. If its live, I dunno if that will really affect my viewing, I guess there won't be the temptation to look at the spoilers. I think having them on back to back nights is a bit much, but I'd like to see how it goes.

Also Sheamus as a face is pretty good, like Spike said it just works for me. He just seems more comfortable in this role, and I guess thats what translates to me.

[spike1138]

Also Sheamus as a face is pretty good, like Spike said it just works for me. He just seems more comfortable in this role, and I guess thats what translates to me.

I think that may be it for me. The comfort level. Sheamus does seem more comfortable in the role he's currently in. I have to admit, I did catch Great White (as JR was calling him on RAW) on Conan and liked his appearance on the show.

[Thrumble Funk]

I will say that losing the taped aspect of Smackdown oughtta tighten up the performances a bit. None of this "We botched it, we'll just reshoot it" crap.

[MechaFan]

Yeah. Strange enough Sheamus actually makes rather good face.

[turdburglar47]

As long as Sheamus keeps saying Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella Fella I think we'll be okay with him as a face, fella.

I think I'd prefer Tuesday live, too, because Friday feels like a wasteland for television and makes Smackdown an afterthought.

The end of the brand extension... that remains to be seen. Mainly because of the championship situation.

[LQBigCountry]

I love Sheamus as a face, i think it adds some freshness to the top of the card. I'm also very high on Mark Henry(never thought i'd say that), Dolph Ziggler, Christian, Wade Barrett, and Daniel Bryan right now. These guys have really impressed me since the beginning of the year. I was pretty big on John Morrison at the beginning of the year, but he has fizzled out since Wrestlemania!

Also , i guess i'll take some time to plug my reviews of Smackdown at pwtorch.com, check them out every Friday(or Tuesday if it changes). Also follow me on Twitter @mjcupach as i tweet live during Raw and WWE PPVs. Thanks.

[NeoShazam]

Haven't payed attention to wrestling much lately. Though I'm very curious if CM Punk will finally be able to do the Pepsi Plunge in the WWE to HHH. I think that would be fantastic.

[MechaFan]

Haven't payed attention to wrestling much lately. Though I'm very curious if CM Punk will finally be able to do the Pepsi Plunge in the WWE to HHH. I think that would be fantastic.

If you want wrestling then you might want to watch indy or japanese instead of WWE. After all wrestling is not main point in current WWE. Story lines are.

[KO Bossy]

I'm in favor of them abolishing the brand split. I never liked it in the first place. It very quickly degenerated into piling all of the high caliber Superstars onto one show, meaning that the other show was usually pretty boring. Then they started doing brand specific PPVs-Smackdown presents Unforgiven, for example. Unfortunately, that meant that the company would have to take one show and try to stretch its roster into one PPV. When you have a full roster to use on a PPV, you can usually get some good stuff, but when you've got half a roster at your disposal, you tend to get a lot more junk, especially, as I said before, if all your popular talent is on one show.

Then there's the fact that the move to Friday was just not a good one. People are out and about Fridays, since its the start of the weekend. They're not gonna sit home just to watch this. If they have work the next day and can't go out, they're gonna be at home anyway, and will therefore be more likely to watch your show. Putting it on a day when they're most likely to go out was a bad idea.

As for the Punk angle, I'm starting to lose hope. First they brought him back early, then they threw Nash in, and now after making Nash vs Punk at NoC, they've suddenly changed it to Hunter/Punk? The consistent curveballs, bad choices and rushed stories are aggravating me.

[Fredwood]

It almost feels as if they're setting up a Hunter/Nash feud. Especially since considering the catchphrase of his new movie coming out, seems a bit too coincidental that there's strain between an old friend and the timing of this movie.

[PhoenixFire]

I don't want Sheamus to be a face :(

Same here...doesn't feel right

Eh, it can work. I'd like to see a new Batista.

I hope you're not comparing Sheamus to Batista...Sheamus won't ever fit that role...he can wrestle :laugh:


I like Sheamus as a face. I can't really explain why but it works for me.

As a big Sheamus fan from the get go...I've always preferred him as a neutral, loner who attacked all in his way and inflicted enough damage that his target would feel it come next Tuesday.
The face appeal doesn't draw to me but eh...he is getting cheered by more fans now and seems to enjoy the attention with a smile rather than a grimace when booed. Though I would never want to see another team-up with Cena..(I was really hoping he would kick Cena in the face there at the end) I'm up for this new direction.

[LQBigCountry]

As for the Punk angle, I'm starting to lose hope. First they brought him back early, then they threw Nash in, and now after making Nash vs Punk at NoC, they've suddenly changed it to Hunter/Punk? The consistent curveballs, bad choices and rushed stories are aggravating me.


It i being reported that Nash can't get medical clearance to wrestle, thats why the match was changed.

[LQBigCountry]

What are peoples thoughts on tonights Supershow? Check out pwtorch.com for my full review.

[KO Bossy]

There isn't a Cornette face in existence big enough to describe just how logic defying-ly stupid the Punk angle has become. They've taken an idea that was absolute gold and turned it into something that I'd honestly expect from TNA. I want to love what they're doing, I really do, but this is just completely nonsensical. If they'd done this right, Triple H and Punk shouldn't fight until Mania, and there's so much you could have done to build it up. Have Cena turn heel and join Triple H, have other superstars ally themselves with the boss to get ahead. Make Hunter absolutely hated. Therefore, when Punk and Trips fight at Mania, people would PAY to see the conclusion. In the meantime, bring in the Kings of Wrestling and Colt Cabana to help Punk in the fight against the establishment. It would be so perfect. Instead, we've seen a potentially long term, genius plan crammed into a PPV out of nowhere. I'm at a loss for words...

And yes, I know that Nash can't get the clearance, but for God's sake, why does that mean we're being given the conclusion of the storyline NOW? Fill it in with something else. Have Punk attack Nash and have him be too hurt to wrestle at NoC, or have Nash attack Punk and give Punk a month off or something. But for the love of God, don't give us the storyline's finale first!

[KO Bossy]

What are peoples thoughts on tonights Supershow? Check out pwtorch.com for my full review.

The main event was great, Sin Cara and Daniel Bryan were very entertaining. I couldn't care less about Mark Henry. Cena squashed Wade Barrett and it was totally unnecessary, very poorly booked. And, well, you can read above for my thoughts on the contract signing.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Then there's the fact that the move to Friday was just not a good one. People are out and about Fridays, since its the start of the weekend. They're not gonna sit home just to watch this.

Wrestling fans? Really?

Triple H and Punk shouldn't fight until Mania

Given that HHH made it clear the night after last Mania that he's going to go for attempt #3 on Taker next time, I'd say it was incredibly naive to think that they were going to stretch a feud with Punk out for another half a year.

Have Cena turn heel

Listen, I know you really, really, REALLY want him to be a heel again. We get it. But if they didn't have him turn heel when he was shanghaied into the Nexus, if they didn't have him turn heel when Randy became every bit as big a face, if they didn't have him turn heel during the feud with Punk as the audiences were clearly against him... if it doesn't happen against Rock at Mania, then it just won't happen. Period.

Make Hunter absolutely hated.

As opposed to when? Even during the DX reunions, it wasn't like Hunter was exactly beloved.

It i being reported that Nash can't get medical clearance to wrestle, thats why the match was changed.

LOL

What did I tell you guys? (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5801330&postcount=485)
I wouldn't look forward to it either, but considering Nash at this point has the durability of Mr. Glass from "Unbreakable", I'd be stunned if the match ever happened even if it was announced this Monday.

This is what's called a "happy accident". Did anyone really, sincerely want Nash vs. Punk? Does anyone want to see Punk having to carry Nash through an entire PPV match?

[Fredwood]

I think having Nash do run ins (or walk ins) is great, but I don't want to see him in a match.

Also, how does a Sin Cara heel turn even work? I really don't understand it, also why did he turn heel after he beat Bryan clean...I'm so confused right now with this booking.

I was surprised how vanilla and how typical of a "Cena Match" that was Barret vs Cena. Especially when you consider that the past few weeks on Raw we saw both Morrison and Ziggler put on strong performances against the champions, then to have Barret come out and get squashed just didn't make any sense. John doesn't need the push anymore, yet they keep giving it to him and making him look invincible against anyone who isn't CM Punk. They could have still given John the win but had the match go back and forth like they've done the past few weeks on Raw.

I felt the same way with the Orton match, Orton is taking all this punishment (kicking out of 3 separate finishers, I mean come on), but he's already one of the top few guys, it still just felt like the same old #### with this show. I knew Christian wasn't going to win, and the match was still rather enjoyable. But surprise, Orton kicks out of everything and wins with another super RKO. I mean they can't update the finish at all? Also I love how the announcers were talking about how this was the 6th time they've faced and how its been one of the more even rivalries in recent memory. Yet Christian only won one of those matches and it was by "DQ". What's the point of basically erasing the last 4 months, Christian has been dominated, and what are they trying to do now? Salvage him for a feud with Sheamus? The damage has been done, and it feels as if they're scrambling because they realize they can't book another match with Orton/Christian.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Also, how does a Sin Cara heel turn even work?

It depends on Mistico's situation with the company. If he's staying, then the guy that took a cheap shot on Bryan is an impostor. If not... I guess they could say it's his brother or something.

Anyways, the matches were decent for what they were (blatant attempts to pop ratings in a different timeslot), but I'm not convinced yet that Live Smackdowns are a great idea.

[KO Bossy]

Wrestling fans? Really?



Given that HHH made it clear the night after last Mania that he's going to go for attempt #3 on Taker next time, I'd say it was incredibly naive to think that they were going to stretch a feud with Punk out for another half a year.



Listen, I know you really, really, REALLY want him to be a heel again. We get it. But if they didn't have him turn heel when he was shanghaied into the Nexus, if they didn't have him turn heel when Randy became every bit as big a face, if they didn't have him turn heel during the feud with Punk as the audiences were clearly against him... if it doesn't happen against Rock at Mania, then it just won't happen. Period.



As opposed to when? Even during the DX reunions, it wasn't like Hunter was exactly beloved.



LOL

What did I tell you guys? (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5801330&postcount=485)


This is what's called a "happy accident". Did anyone really, sincerely want Nash vs. Punk? Does anyone want to see Punk having to carry Nash through an entire PPV match?

You may have missed when Thrumble, a confessed wrestling fan, said that even when he's home on Friday, he still probably wouldn't watch Smackdown. Why don't cable networks usually put high profile shows on Fridays? Because people are doing stuff. The fans who will sit at home to watch Smackdown are far outweighed by the ones who won't. It was a bad idea to put it on Fridays in the first place.

As for Hunter and Taker, regardless of my naivety, the best idea is still to have them fight at Wrestlemania. The WWE won't give time for angles to develop anymore, and that's why, by in large, things keep getting ####ed up and are so boring. In the past, they gave stuff time. Hence, it usually succeeded. Now, they rush it. Result? It sucks. Pretty simple. I would actually pay to see Punk ad Hunter at Mania in the conclusion of this entire feud. Taker and Trips, we've seen that already. Now I'm sure it would be a great in ring match, but I'd prefer to see something new and fresh instead of something I've already seen.

I know you get sick of me saying Cena should be a heel, but until someone gets a brain in Stamford and clues in that its time for this indomitable marine superhero to end and for him to have a personality again, I'll keep saying it. And storyline wise, it would actually work in this time frame. If they keep waiting, they'll lose the opportunity, and we'll be back to the same old crap we've had for the past several years. Like Punk says, we need change. Its also my personal opinion, as you well know Arsenal, that Cena was actually interesting as a heel. He rapped his way to the ring, insulted people in rhyme, and showed intensity and charisma. Now, he's just a boring tool. Why wouldn't I want the old Cena back? But I'll agree that if it doesn't happen against Rock, it won't ever. Just another blown opportunity.

Back in 1999 when Triple H won his first World Title, he was totally despised. Or with the McMahon-Helmsley era. Or with Evolution. That's the Triple H we need back. The clean shaven, pompous ### who could screw you over and make the fans love to hate him. Triple H is trying too hard to be the likable boss right now.

I definitely didn't want Punk and Nash in a match together, but if it would eventually lead to greater things, I would have at least suffered through it.

[KO Bossy]

I think having Nash do run ins (or walk ins) is great, but I don't want to see him in a match.

Also, how does a Sin Cara heel turn even work? I really don't understand it, also why did he turn heel after he beat Bryan clean...I'm so confused right now with this booking.

I was surprised how vanilla and how typical of a "Cena Match" that was Barret vs Cena. Especially when you consider that the past few weeks on Raw we saw both Morrison and Ziggler put on strong performances against the champions, then to have Barret come out and get squashed just didn't make any sense. John doesn't need the push anymore, yet they keep giving it to him and making him look invincible against anyone who isn't CM Punk. They could have still given John the win but had the match go back and forth like they've done the past few weeks on Raw.

I felt the same way with the Orton match, Orton is taking all this punishment (kicking out of 3 separate finishers, I mean come on), but he's already one of the top few guys, it still just felt like the same old #### with this show. I knew Christian wasn't going to win, and the match was still rather enjoyable. But surprise, Orton kicks out of everything and wins with another super RKO. I mean they can't update the finish at all? Also I love how the announcers were talking about how this was the 6th time they've faced and how its been one of the more even rivalries in recent memory. Yet Christian only won one of those matches and it was by "DQ". What's the point of basically erasing the last 4 months, Christian has been dominated, and what are they trying to do now? Salvage him for a feud with Sheamus? The damage has been done, and it feels as if they're scrambling because they realize they can't book another match with Orton/Christian.

Yeah, and the fact that they're moving on to Mark Henry and Orton at NoC isn't exactly 'trading up'.

Totally agreed with your analysis. Barrett and Cena was such a joke. I mean they replayed Barrett's 'match changing' sidewalk slam 3 times, and then Cena literally stood up like it was nothing 2 minutes later and won. Same...old...regular...tiresome...outdated...way overdone...####. Give us change!

[KO Bossy]

Oh I should also point out that Matt Hardy just posted this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvmKSuERht4&feature=channel_video_title)on his Youtube account and from the looks of it, is planning to kill himself. Whether or not its true or just another pathetic cry for attention in the continuing downward spiral that is his life, well, I'll let you guys be the judge of that.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Why don't cable networks usually put high profile shows on Fridays? Because people are doing stuff.

Problem is, if you look at networks (cable and broadcast), you'd see that certain type of shows are put on Friday nights. Shows that have the kind of fan demographics that, how shall we put this daintily... aren't known for having busy Friday nights. Wrestling tends to get lumped in with that crowd. So don't be surprised that I'm not swayed by your assessment of that demographic being incorrect because you opted to cite one poster's comment.

It was a bad idea to put it on Fridays in the first place.

Not totally. You look back at when they moved to Fridays on UPN, and their ratings ended up better. The move to SyFy is what's clearly changed things, and that's now because their numbers can be more directly compared to Raw's numbers.

As for Hunter and Taker, regardless of my naivety, the best idea is still to have them fight at Wrestlemania.

Right. Hunter and Taker at Wrestlemania. There you go.

In the past, they gave stuff time. Hence, it usually succeeded.

Depends on when you're referring to. If you're referring to the Attitude Era, then you're grosslyoff-base since a lot of their feuds were hotshotted and booked in about the same month-in-advance on-the-fly style that they still use today. And if you're referring to the pre-Raw days of the WWE. Then it's off-base because they didn't have 4+ hours of TV programming a week to fill. They gave things time because they didn't have much of a choice otherwise.

I know you get sick of me saying Cena should be a heel, but until someone gets a brain in Stamford and clues in that its time for this indomitable marine superhero to end and for him to have a personality again, I'll keep saying it.

Honestly, I don't think it's the people in Stamford that have the problem. You see how the audience tonight was clearly a Pro-Cena crowd? He still has a fanbase. And the company would be silly to throw away the guy that still has a fandom that strong just to suit a personal agenda.

Back in 1999 when Triple H won his first World Title, he was totally despised. Or with the McMahon-Helmsley era. Or with Evolution. That's the Triple H we need back.

Uh. No. See, I remember exactly why HHH was despised back then and it wasn't just because he was a cocky heel. It was because he was dominating nearly every feud he was involved in. Seriously, I am beyond stunned that you, of all people that like many, have *legitimate* issues with the Superman-esque portrayal of John Cena... and yet you have the nerve to want the Triple H from 99-05 back. The guy who bulldozed his way through nearly the entire roster and glommed screentime with promos and feuds that were far from his best works. So much for you wanting change.

And this is the major concern I think folks (myself included) have with Punk feuding with HHH. Not the timing of the match. Not so much the angle surrounding it. But rather the fact that despite the trend that HHH hasn't been as bad in recent years as he was back at the height of his glass ceiling... his reputation still precedes him. And at any minute, it could rear its ugly head. Every line between Hunter and Punk tonight that had grains of truth totally littered throughout their promo, could be rendered meaningless with a simple Pedigree or god help us all, another powerbomb.

but if it would eventually lead to greater things, I would have at least suffered through it.

And there's the flaw in that statement: Nothing with Nash in-ring post-'98 leads to good things. So why put oneself through any suffering needlessly?

As for Matt, the fact it's on YouTube at all means it's a work.

[KO Bossy]

Problem is, if you look at networks (cable and broadcast), you'd see that certain type of shows are put on Friday nights. Shows that have the kind of fan demographics that, how shall we put this daintily... aren't known for having busy Friday nights. Wrestling tends to get lumped in with that crowd. So don't be surprised that I'm not swayed by your assessment of that demographic being incorrect because you opted to cite one poster's comment.



Not totally. You look back at when they moved to Fridays on UPN, and their ratings ended up better. The move to SyFy is what's clearly changed things, and that's now because their numbers can be more directly compared to Raw's numbers.



Right. Hunter and Taker at Wrestlemania. There you go.



Depends on when you're referring to. If you're referring to the Attitude Era, then you're grosslyoff-base since a lot of their feuds were hotshotted and booked in about the same month-in-advance on-the-fly style that they still use today. And if you're referring to the pre-Raw days of the WWE. Then it's off-base because they didn't have 4+ hours of TV programming a week to fill. They gave things time because they didn't have much of a choice otherwise.



Honestly, I don't think it's the people in Stamford that have the problem. You see how the audience tonight was clearly a Pro-Cena crowd? He still has a fanbase. And the company would be silly to throw away the guy that still has a fandom that strong just to suit a personal agenda.



Uh. No. See, I remember exactly why HHH was despised back then and it wasn't just because he was a cocky heel. It was because he was dominating nearly every feud he was involved in. Seriously, I am beyond stunned that you, of all people that like many, have *legitimate* issues with the Superman-esque portrayal of John Cena... and yet you have the nerve to want the Triple H from 99-05 back. The guy who bulldozed his way through nearly the entire roster and glommed screentime with promos and feuds that were far from his best works. So much for you wanting change.

And this is the major concern I think folks (myself included) have with Punk feuding with HHH. Not the timing of the match. Not so much the angle surrounding it. But rather the fact that despite the trend that HHH hasn't been as bad in recent years as he was back at the height of his glass ceiling... his reputation still precedes him. And at any minute, it could rear its ugly head. Every line between Hunter and Punk tonight that had grains of truth totally littered throughout their promo, could be rendered meaningless with a simple Pedigree or god help us all, another powerbomb.



And there's the flaw in that statement: Nothing with Nash in-ring post-'98 leads to good things. So why put oneself through any suffering needlessly?

As for Matt, the fact it's on YouTube at all means it's a work.

Perhaps I should rectify my previous statement. I want the Triple H back that...you know, #### it. Triple H's whole career was pretty much tainted because of his involvement in backstage politics. And I can't say "I want this Triple H back" because that's pretty much always been Triple H. I'd like for Trips to just have an angle without all the bull#### that comes with it, but realistically, that just won't happen. I guess its because even though Triple H is a dick, I at least found him to be entertaining, while Cena has worn really thin. Hunter is an arrogant, selfish, controlling, power hungry jerk. However, I think he's funny and I find him entertaining. Cena can be quite entertaining, but the problem is that they've written him to be a really boring character, I find. I also find Triple H to be a better wrestler. This just comes down to personal preference. Hunter is a jerk, but I would still watch him. Cena is an ### kisser, and I usually take a bathroom break during his matches. I just...don't care to watch him. And yet, he's being shoved in my face.

I will say that I fully agree with you that I hope this Triple H/Punk feud doesn't end up with Trips writing himself to come out on top because of his ego because that'd be a disaster.

As for Nash, I guess I just remain hopeful that this feud will go somewhere good, and even though I don't wanna see Punk/Nash, if it ended up going somewhere good after that, I'd at least be happy. Your pointing out that Nash's involvement in things usually kills them is very true, and it'd probably happen, but I try to have faith.

I speak from what I would like to see. Obviously people won't agree with that. For me, as a fan, if this stuff happened, I'd be satisfied. As it is right now, I see a lot of stuff that I'm not happy with, and as a result, it turns me off of the product. Cena, for example. At the same time, I see some stuff I like, so I want to watch. Punk, Daniel Bryan, Evan Bourne and company are examples of this. Unfortunately, my choices are based on what would make the stories more interesting, while they have to do that as well as what's good for business. Therefore, we get a some good stuff, and some bad stuff.

I still think they should change Smackdown to another night of the week. I don't see what was wrong with Thursdays, as it was. TNA is barely surviving as it is, its not like there would be a huge competition.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Hunter is a jerk, but I would still watch him.

Hey, I'm not going to lie. I'd watch him as well. For all the burials and slaughtering his way through the entire company, as much as the politics have tainted his career: He's still pretty good at what he does. The biggest problem is that he's pretty boring as a heel. HHH is a much-more quick-witted guy than people give him credit for. As a face, he's responsible for some solid ad-libbing and he's a great storyteller when he gives an interview.

And in terms of matches, yeah he can still hang. I remember in '05 during the last stage of the breakdown of Evolution when he was feuding with Ric Flair, they had this cage match at Taboo Tuesday. And for as much as the crowd hated HHH, they gave him and Flair a standing ovation for such a brutal match.

So if he's going to feud with Punk for the next couple of months, I can hope the match will be good, but the potential finishes concern me and I'm sure could end up overshadowing the remainder of the match.

my choices are based on what would make the stories more interesting

I am quite far from agreement with such a comment, but I'll leave it at that.

I still think they should change Smackdown to another night of the week. I don't see what was wrong with Thursdays, as it was.

I want to clarify: I don't see anything wrong with moving to other nights. I just don't agree with the claim that moving to Fridays was bad nor do I think going live weekly will be a boon to viewership. If they're going to move, so be it. Wherever they go, they'll probably remain SyFy's top rated show. But purely for reasons motivated by self-interest, I'd just want them to move to a night that has less programming I watch in addition. Thursdays wouldn't be much better. Tuesday or Wednesday. If they have to move, go there. Just tape the thing.

TNA is barely surviving as it is, its not like there would be a huge competition.

TNA would be in big trouble if Smackdown moved to Thursdays, but UFC leaving just gave them a reprieve since now they'd technically be Spike TV's highest rated series by far.

[KO Bossy]

Alright, my choices are based on what I think would make the stories more interesting. Better?

UFC leaving Spike is better for TNA, but TNA really has to step up their game and start making some sense with what they're doing, because right now things are pretty bad.

[vamroc]

Hey, I'm not going to lie. I'd watch him as well. For all the burials and slaughtering his way through the entire company, as much as the politics have tainted his career: He's still pretty good at what he does. The biggest problem is that he's pretty boring as a heel. HHH is a much-more quick-witted guy than people give him credit for. As a face, he's responsible for some solid ad-libbing and he's a great storyteller when he gives an interview.

And in terms of matches, yeah he can still hang. I remember in '05 during the last stage of the breakdown of Evolution when he was feuding with Ric Flair, they had this cage match at Taboo Tuesday. And for as much as the crowd hated HHH, they gave him and Flair a standing ovation for such a brutal match.



Yeah, I got to see that EPIC throwdown HHH had with Beniot at No Mercy back in 2000 we gave them a stand ovation also. It was strange because both wrestlers were sorta faces at that point and no one really knew who to cheer for so the crowd took turns. HHH earned my respect that night because he NEVER resorted to the sledge hammer or any of the other gimmicks he employs as "The Game". HHH stood face to face with Beniot and they wrestled NONSTOP for the entire match which was close to 30 minutes

[LQBigCountry]

For some insight on Smackdown being on Friday night, here is a article from former head writer of Smackdown Dave Lagana on iwantwrestling.com.

http://iwantwrestling.com/2011/04/23/tale-of-two-titl-wwe-draft-2005/

He talks about what happened when WWE found out that UPN was moving SMackdown from Thursday to Friday and how Raw became the A show and Smackdown became a afterthought.

[Thrumble Funk]

::reads about Matt Hardy's desperate plea for attention on YouTube via tasteless suicide allusions::

Yeah, he needs to just go away.

[MechaFan]

And think that I respected Matt Hardy before. Oh how low he has sank.

[Thrumble Funk]

I honestly haven't enjoyed his work since the V1 days.

[vamroc]

And think that I respected Matt Hardy before. Oh how low he has sank.

I thought Jeff had all the talent to be honest and Matt was just the "Marty Jennety" of that team granted Matt went on to have a better solo carrier than Jennety but in the end Matt is STILL "Tito Jackson".

[NeoShazam]

I thought Jeff had all the talent to be honest and Matt was just the "Marty Jennety" of that team granted Matt went on to have a better solo carrier than Jennety but in the end Matt is STILL "Tito Jackson".

I see Jeff Hardy as the Jeff Conaway of Taxi, talented but a timebomb.

I liked Matt Hardy as V1 but when he said he wouldn't come back to do the Edge angle and become a jobber again, and then he promptly came back for the Edge angle and was a jobber again....he lost it.

[vamroc]

I see Jeff Hardy as the Jeff Conaway of Taxi, talented but a timebomb.

I liked Matt Hardy as V1 but when he said he wouldn't come back to do the Edge angle and become a jobber again, and then he promptly came back for the Edge angle and was a jobber again....he lost it.

I almost thought you going to say "talented but still dead" :laugh:

[spike1138]

Sigh. Super Cena wins again.

[Fredwood]

So the forced resignation stip makes me think Hunter might win, if thats the case, I'm not sure I'll be able to continue watching on a regular basis (probably take a break like I did when Christian lost his title)

[Arsenalroy2k]

See, I'm not sure what to think about the resignation stipulation. On one hand, it makes it sound like HHH is going to win because it's tough to believe this angle of him being COO would end in only a month. But at the same time, if HHH resigns, does Laurinaitis take over? Steph? Vince?

[vamroc]

See, I'm not sure what to think about the resignation stipulation. On one hand, it makes it sound like HHH is going to win because it's tough to believe this angle of him being COO would end in only a month. But at the same time, if HHH resigns, does Laurinaitis take over? Steph? Vince?

IT'S A SCAM!!! Nash getting fired, The resignation stipulation, HHH is up to something what his master plan is I don't know but the whole thing smells of a set up.

[michiganj24]

I would assume Johnny Boy
No reason to bring back Vince...
But really I could see if they wanted to make Hunter Heel go yeah the board is not down with me resigning so suck it
See, I'm not sure what to think about the resignation stipulation. On one hand, it makes it sound like HHH is going to win because it's tough to believe this angle of him being COO would end in only a month. But at the same time, if HHH resigns, does Laurinaitis take over? Steph? Vince?

[LQBigCountry]

I'm thinking this stip is some knee-jerk reaction to the low rating from two weeks ago. The needle didn't move how they thought it would, so they may be looking to change things around. I'm thinking Punk wins, HHH resigns, and whoever takes over for HHH makes him a full-time wrestler again.

[Thrumble Funk]

THIS JUST IN: WWE has apparently kayfabe "released" Kevin Nash.

[Fredwood]

THIS JUST IN: WWE has apparently kayfabe "released" Kevin Nash.

You don't say...I guess we won't be seeing him leading up to or at Night of Champions...>.> <.<

Do they really think the "You're fired" thing still fools people? How does that add more drama to the situation when no one gets fired.

[SLVRSR4]

Was at the local fair today and saw an Italian Ice stand that I thought you guys would appreciate. All the little Jimmys love Italian ice:

[JGonspy]

Was at the local fair today and saw an Italian Ice stand that I thought you guys would appreciate. All the little Jimmys love Italian ice:

That Italian ice is gonna get got.

[Fredwood]

There better not be a Spider in my Italian Ice.

[Jerry_Damage01]

Reading this thread makes me realize how much I miss ECW. Those were the days... :(

[MechaFan]

Do they really think the "You're fired" thing still fools people? How does that add more drama to the situation when no one gets fired.

Exatly. Story line fireings don't mean anything anymore.

[Fredwood]

Wierd that for the most part (with the exception of Orton and "Air Boom"-bleach) that the faces all had the upper hand at the end of the Go home show. Seems like an odd way to book it.

Good to see Cody get the win though, figured Orton would deliver some sort of quadruple strengthed RKO or something equally stupid.

[Thrumble Funk]

LOVED the CM Punk/HHH exchange. Thought HHH would get completely outclassed, but he held his own, and made some great kayfabe points.

[zyxba]

I'm still enjoying the punk/h feud, but all the getting over references are bothering me a bit. Kind of takes me out of the show.

[MechaFan]

So its Kane vs Kane all over again but this time with Sin Cara. Its intresting to see what they will get out of it.

[PhoenixFire]

Finally!! Mark Henry has the belt!

[Arsenalroy2k]

Finally!! Mark Henry has the belt!

That development alone had me a million times more disappointed than anything else that happened at the PPV. And given the results, there's a lot of other things that were plenty questionable. So the fact that Mark Henry got a major title win out of pity is awfully shameful.

[PhoenixFire]

That development alone had me a million times more disappointed than anything else that happened at the PPV. And given the results, there's a lot of other things that were plenty questionable. So the fact that Mark Henry got a major title win out of pity is awfully shameful.

Think what you will of Mark but his rise to the top has been long overdue. The fact that WWE has even kept him around for so long while they cut off so many "over the hill" wrestlers before they hit their 40s has to say something about the man. Sure..they could have taken the easy path to give him a "pity title" by giving him a money in the bank win...but instead they chose to give him a long build up with some short feuds where he ended up destroying his opponents. I've enjoyed his wrestling style as of late. He has given the crowd a good show with several feats of impressive strength (the match where he picked up Show like a child and gave him about 4 slams comes to mind). He has gone from the pitiful stunts of losing week after week in succession to actually besting some of Smackdown's top talents. I see it as WWE telling Mark to show us what you got and if we like it you finally get the belt. A last opportunity to shine?...perhaps....a title win just for pity?...unlikely.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Think what you will of Mark but his rise to the top has been long overdue.

No. No it hasn't. It wasn't overdue or even due normally. And the appalling thing is that the few people I've seen praise this situation have literally come from out of the blue. I'd love to see the posts from five to ten years ago arguing that Mark Henry is world title material.

People praising this move are using this "overdue respect" argument as a pretense to cover up the fact that in reality, they're just pleased to see a new face break through to a title scene that's dominated by all-too-familiar faces and the talent of the individual is just secondary. That a contingent of people are so burned out by Cena/Orton as the flagbearers of the company that they'll welcome ANYONE into the scene, even if it's Mark Henry.

The fact that WWE has even kept him around for so long while they cut off so many "over the hill" wrestlers before they hit their 40s has to say something about the man.

All it says is that a monster physique pays dividends in the WWE and that one could stay away from the chopping block so long as one is willing to do absolutely anything the company asks of him. I have no doubt that Mark Henry has a good attitude backstage and may be a genuinely good person. But he's still horrendous on the mic and sub-par in the ring, and not world title material.

they could have taken the easy path to give him a "pity title" by giving him a money in the bank win.

A MitB win isn't a pity title. Cheap and heelish, yes. But not pity. Pity is 15 years of angles like knocking up Mae Young, "Thuggin' And Buggin'", a terrible Wrestlemania match for Undertaker... and then becoming world champion because you were so evil you could throw a sound guy?

He has given the crowd a good show with several feats of impressive strength (the match where he picked up Show like a child and gave him about 4 slams comes to mind). He has gone from the pitiful stunts of losing week after week in succession to actually besting some of Smackdown's top talents.

But him beating the top talents of Smackdown IS a series of stunts. Knocking Sheamus through the barricade? Taking out Big Show and Kane? Those are stunts meant to try and validate his run towards the title, never mind the fact that it's not the first loss either of those two have had.

It's like, remember in the first few months of Big Show's tenure in the WWE? Him throwing cars, lifting rings and other feats of strength? This #### with Mark? Not that different at all.

[PhoenixFire]

No. No it hasn't. It wasn't overdue or even due normally. And the appalling thing is that the few people I've seen praise this situation have literally come from out of the blue. I'd love to see the posts from five to ten years ago arguing that Mark Henry is world title material.

Search the net maybe you'll find them. What do you mean out of the blue? The realms? That term is so vague.

People praising this move are using this "overdue respect" argument as a pretense to cover up the fact that in reality, they're just pleased to see a new face break through to a title scene that's dominated by all-too-familiar faces and the talent of the individual is just secondary. That a contingent of people are so burned out by Cena/Orton as the flagbearers of the company that they'll welcome ANYONE into the scene, even if it's Mark Henry.

Again, you come off as being the omnipotent one that knows exactly what's in the mind of people using the overdue respect argument. Pompous much? What if I told that in reality I really wanted the man to win the title. Not due to the fact that Cena/Orton have been the poster boys for the past so on years but because if given the ample opportunity, Mark has what it takes to actually hold the title and make a decent run with whatever time his career has left. I wouldn't welcome just anyone to the scene. Santino? Hell no...Ziggler? pft...Jackson? Naw
As far as talent being secondary goes it's like that with just about everyone in the biz. Showmanship and Mic prowess are first.


All it says is that a monster physique pays dividends in the WWE and that one could stay away from the chopping block so long as one is willing to do absolutely anything the company asks of him. I have no doubt that Mark Henry has a good attitude backstage and may be a genuinely good person. But he's still horrendous on the mic and sub-par in the ring, and not world title material.

I'll give you this....his mic skills are the weakest thing about him. His ring attributes are pretty good for a man his size and age. He moves far better than most big men I've seen as of late and his standing kick to Orton's face today was evidence of that. What makes a person world title material isn't just determined by their skill, looks, or talent. You're a devoted fan. You know it's all on the shoulders of the ticket buyers, merchandise wearers, and PPV orderers. Sad but true...this is kind of vague on my part. I'll emphasize later.


A MitB win isn't a pity title. Cheap and heelish, yes. But not pity. Pity is 15 years of angles like knocking up Mae Young, "Thuggin' And Buggin'", a terrible Wrestlemania match for Undertaker... and then becoming world champion because you were so evil you could throw a sound guy?

Wiki agrees with you there. He has gone through some bad times. I remember Eddie Guerrero doing the same before his big break but you're mentioning things that are years in the past. In recent times most evil heels are the types that run away at first sign of conflict, take the low road, and hide behind cronies. At least Mark has been given a prouder display of terror in terms of tearing off steel cage doors, man handling men larger than him, and continuing to plow through the competition whether it be Kane, Show, or even Sheamus. You're also right on the Bank shot not being a pity title but it could be used that way should WWE ever want it to be.



But him beating the top talents of Smackdown IS a series of stunts. Knocking Sheamus through the barricade? Taking out Big Show and Kane? Those are stunts meant to try and validate his run towards the title, never mind the fact that it's not the first loss either of those two have had.

It's like, remember in the first few months of Big Show's tenure in the WWE? Him throwing cars, lifting rings and other feats of strength? This #### with Mark? Not that different at all.

When it really comes down to it isn't it all a series of stunts for whomever is on the path to the title? It happens all the time. The fact that they took the time, preparation, and effort to give Henry a huge push proves that WWE wants to give him the credit he deserves which is long OVERDUE. It's not much different from Show's big intro that you mentioned except this isn't Mark's big intro. It's around his 15th year in the WWE. They rehash the same monstrous streak every so often. Kane might be the next one to go through this and Mark has had this before in ECW.

I know you'll give me a huge lengthy response to this and that's fine. Sadly it's almost 3am here so I am cutting this short and calling it a day. We can pick up where we left off tomorrow. Just giving you a heads up so you won't think I ditched you.

In the end...It's all about opinion...we all have our favorites and perceive the business in different ways from our fellow peers. Which is to be expected from fans of any form of competition.

[MechaFan]

I must admit that I never believed into Mark Henry's chances to win WHC from Super Orton. I was sure that he would had got RKO out of no were from Orton. After all thats how Orton's matches usually end. But its good to see some one who has been around so long finaly get to be WHC.

[LQBigCountry]

I've never been a big fan of Mark Henry, in fact me and my friends have a running joke that our hell would be a series of Iron Man matches featuring Mark Henry vs. Great Khali, but i think he has been booked great the last 5 months on Smackdown and is very believable as a monster heel. People should also pay attention to his push over the last few months because creative/Vince got behind him, kept him strong, avoided comedy skits, and didn't have anyone belittle him or treat him as anything other than a serious threat. Point being - why don't they do this more often for more people? It could be argued that outside of Undertaker and HHH that Henry has the most tenure on the roster and is given the respect that goes with that. They tried this push 5 years ago, but it got cut off because he was sloppy and injured too many people.

But bottom line, Smackdown and Randy Orton needs someone strong as a top heel, i thought Sheamus or Wade Barrett could be that person, but i have no problem with Mark Henry in the short term. He has been doing a good job and his matches have been watchable.

P.S. Little known fact - Mark Henry was penciled in to end Undertakers streak back at Wrestlemania 22, he had Taker's blessing to win, but at the very last minute Vince changed the outcome of the match.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Search the net maybe you'll find them. What do you mean out of the blue? The realms? That term is so vague.

Okay, we'll be specific. I want to see *your* support of Mark Henry from say... 2-3 years ago. Better yet, I'd like you to put together a list of the five greatest promos Mark Henry has ever done and the ten greatest matches he's ever had. I want you to show me the run that made his win last night an overdue thing. Show me the amazing work that was passed over in favor of others.

What if I told that in reality I really wanted the man to win the title. Not due to the fact that Cena/Orton have been the poster boys for the past so on years but because if given the ample opportunity, Mark has what it takes to actually hold the title and make a decent run with whatever time his career has left.

Then I wouldn't believe that for a second.

As far as talent being secondary goes it's like that with just about everyone in the biz. Showmanship and Mic prowess are first. {...} I'll give you this....his mic skills are the weakest thing about him.

And yet...

His ring attributes are pretty good for a man his size and age. He moves far better than most big men I've seen as of late

No, his ring attributes are not pretty good. In fact, the only reason it could be considered that he moves well is because all the better big men in the company aren't currently around.

You know it's all on the shoulders of the ticket buyers, merchandise wearers, and PPV orderers.

This is true. Which is another reason why I'm so stunned at this move, since Mark has no drawing power.

I remember Eddie Guerrero doing the same before his big break but you're mentioning things that are years in the past.

I'd like to think that, but I recall not that long ago, a series of backstage segments of Tony Atlas going on and on while Mark Henry is left to play bored to tears.

When it really comes down to it isn't it all a series of stunts for whomever is on the path to the title? It happens all the time. The fact that they took the time, preparation, and effort to give Henry a huge push proves that WWE wants to give him the credit he deserves which is long OVERDUE. It's not much different from Show's big intro that you mentioned except this isn't Mark's big intro. It's around his 15th year in the WWE. They rehash the same monstrous streak every so often.

Right. So in other words, they could stick anyone in that spot and achieve the same results. Which means Mark isn't particularly special, and certainly not deserving of the main spot in the company.

The fact they rolled out "stock monster angle #X" is not really taking preparation and effort. It's also not overdue because there's nothing to show that Mark Henry has been showing great ringwork and exemplary promo work his whole career.

It's his 15th year in the company. That's nice. Thank him for his work and move on. Managing to hang in there doesn't make someone World Championship material.

[Thrumble Funk]

No, his ring attributes are not pretty good. In fact, the only reason it could be considered that he moves well is because all the better big men in the company aren't currently around.

Subjective. Mark Henry works well, IMO, as a big guy who can believably give the other big guys a run for their money. He has a place.

No. No it hasn't. It wasn't overdue or even due normally. And the appalling thing is that the few people I've seen praise this situation have literally come from out of the blue. I'd love to see the posts from five to ten years ago arguing that Mark Henry is world title material.

Again, subjective. People don't care about ANY wrestler until said wrestler/creative team MAKE people care. Even during his face run with MVP, I noticed a bit more charisma from Mark Henry. His in-ring work? Passable, just like literally ANY OTHER big "monster" type (no one will tell me that Andre the Giant was some superb ring technician because, well...he wasn't. And he didn't HAVE to be.). All he has to do is show up, hit the power moves, and leave his opponent lying.

Answer me this: did you give a damn about Rocky Maivia before he came into his own/the machine really got behind him? Likely not.

I think Henry has something to contribute as champion: he's the classic immovable object, and WWE is currently letting him BE that.

[KO Bossy]

Even though Arsenal and I don't agree on stuff all the time (did you know that John Cena needs to be a heel for Mania? :p), I'm in full agreement on Mark Henry. He's a bad wrestler, his mic skills (HA!) are non existent and the fans could honestly care less about him. His drawing power is really pathetic. People rip on Kevin Nash about being the lowest drawing WWF champion of all time. I think he's about to be dethroned. Fans just won't pay to see him, so why make him your top guy? Because he's been there for eons due to a bone headed move by Vince to sign him for a decade long contract? This is a business. Long term loyalty is all well and good, but people have to understand their place. Mark Henry's is not at the top of the company. The fact that they're throwing him a bone and saying "he's been here forever, let's give him a shot" is going to very soon come back and bite them in the asses.

[Thrumble Funk]

Fans just won't pay to see him, so why make him your top guy?

They'll pay to see him if he keeps destroying people at this rate.

Every now and then a pure, old-school "monster" is good for building a plucky, "don't tell me the odds" face to dethrone said monster. If they're smart, that person won't be Orton.

[Thrumble Funk]

The fact that they're throwing him a bone and saying "he's been here forever, let's give him a shot" is going to very soon come back and bite them in the asses.

To be fair, that didn't happen with Khali, Kane, etc. Someone beat them, and business progressed.

Seriously people, this isn't the second coming of David Arquette. To quote Goldberg, "It's all temporary."

[Thrumble Funk]

But him beating the top talents of Smackdown IS a series of stunts. Knocking Sheamus through the barricade? Taking out Big Show and Kane? Those are stunts meant to try and validate his run towards the title, never mind the fact that it's not the first loss either of those two have had.

Also, I fail to see how this is any different from any other build we've seen. Not every performer is on the Rock/Austin level. Most of them need a little bit of a jumpstart.

Hell, the outcome of EVERY match is pretty much a "series of stunts" designed to get a talent/storyline/idea over.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Subjective. Mark Henry works well, IMO, as a big guy who can believably give the other big guys a run for their money. He has a place.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a role, I just don't think it's as World Champion. Where you claim he works well, there doesn't need to be a strap around his waist. At least not the main strap anyways.

I'd also add that there's no other big guys that he hasn't already feuded with in the past (with less than exhilarating results).

Answer me this: did you give a damn about Rocky Maivia before he came into his own/the machine really got behind him? Likely not.

You'd be absolutely right. But you're pointing out that Rocky changed. Mark hasn't. This is the same shtick from any of his other disastrous heel runs, just now they're adding in the "he's been around for over a decade" card.

[Thrumble Funk]

I'm not saying he doesn't have a role, I just don't think it's as World Champion. Where you claim he works well, there doesn't need to be a strap around his waist. At least not the main strap anyways.

I'd say that Henry NEEDS a strap around his waist to get fans to take him as a credible threat on that level.

Cena? Taker? Punk? Triple H? THEY don't need belts. They're already top guys, and will be top guys as long as they're around. Guys like MArk Henry/Kane/etc.? Yeah, they need a bit of help.

Kane, for example, has long been pushed as the guy that terrifies EVERYONE. That was ENTIRELY borne from his initial push (as Kane), and he ran with it. I'm thinking Henry can do the same.

Still, it isn't like it matters. Nowadays two months is a "healthy title reign" by modern standards.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Every now and then a pure, old-school "monster" is good for building a plucky, "don't tell me the odds" face to dethrone said monster. If they're smart, that person won't be Orton.

To be honest, I'd rather it be Orton just based on the sneaking suspicion that Undertaker/Kane/Big Show might be back soon.

Seriously people, this isn't the second coming of David Arquette.

No, it's not that bad. I don't think it's a company-breaking level mistake like that. But it's still pretty awful nonetheless.

[PaxZRake]

I rather like stunts.

I watch this stuff to be entertained.

[Thrumble Funk]

I rather like stunts.

I watch this stuff to be entertained.

Yep. And Mark Henry manhandling the Big Show (see also: Mr. Perfect Perfect-Plexing Big Show; Brock Lesnar superplexing Big Show and breaking the ring) was a fun little "Well holy ####!" moment, IMO.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Cena? Taker? Punk? Triple H? THEY don't need belts. They're already top guys, and will be top guys as long as they're around. Guys like MArk Henry/Kane/etc.? Yeah, they need a bit of help.

The only part of that statement I disagree with is that Kane needed help. As short has his title runs have been, he's been a top guy and done fine.

When it comes to Mark, I'm reluctant to believe a title is going to be the thing that really helps solidify him after 15 years of the company trying everything else.

Kane, for example, has long been pushed as the guy that terrifies EVERYONE. That was ENTIRELY borne from his initial push (as Kane), and he ran with it. I'm thinking Henry can do the same.

I'm not convinced at all since Kane is vastly different in terms of his skills as opposed to Mark. Kane got to his spot from being a monster, but managed to keep that spot with decent ringwork and delivering good promos. And whenever Kane was involved in a lame angle, he managed to bounce back.

[spike1138]

Bigger disappointment for me is that Super Cena is the champ. Again.

Would have liked to have seen ADR hold the belt a bit longer.

[Thrumble Funk]

Bigger disappointment for me is that Super Cena is the champ. Again.

Would have liked to have seen ADR hold the belt a bit longer.

I sincerely do not understand giving Cena the strap. He DOES NOT NEED IT, particularly going into a match that has been a hotly-anticipated main event since it was announced.

[NeoShazam]

Mark Henry is probably a nice guy and has been around a long time but watching him in the ring is pretty much generic big guy WWE wrestler.

Samoa Joe is my favorite in that genre and he raises the bar considerably in work ethic and mic skills, but I saw him first in RoH so that might be a big influence as well.

[Grinner]

If they're smart, that person won't be Orton.

When it comes to things like this, "smart" and WWE booking don't tend to go together :ermm:

[Arsenalroy2k]

I think last night had a lot of disappointing things. In order of severity:

1. Mark Henry's win. I believe we've sufficiently covered this enough for the moment.

2. Cena's win. Totally unnecessary. I'm blanking on what could be gained from this aside from the WWE kickstarting the humbling phase of ADR's career.

3. HHH's win. I'm not as annoyed with that as I probably should be. There was so much interference last night that no one is going to be able to convince me that Punk is buried just because he got Pedigreed and pinned.

4. Air Boom. Nothing to do with the wrestlers or the match, I just hate that they're really sticking with that name. Air Boom sounds like a euphemism for farting.

[KO Bossy]

I think last night had a lot of disappointing things. In order of severity:

1. Mark Henry's win. I believe we've sufficiently covered this enough for the moment.

2. Cena's win. Totally unnecessary. I'm blanking on what could be gained from this aside from the WWE kickstarting the humbling phase of ADR's career.

3. HHH's win. I'm not as annoyed with that as I probably should be. There was so much interference last night that no one is going to be able to convince me that Punk is buried just because he got Pedigreed and pinned.

4. Air Boom. Nothing to do with the wrestlers or the match, I just hate that they're really sticking with that name. Air Boom sounds like a euphemism for farting.

I honestly believe that Vince Russo was booking last night, because that main event wreaked of 'end days of WCW style overbooking.' Its really sad that the Punk angle has lost so much steam. One of those problems was banking on Kevin Nash being able to wrestle when he hadn't yet been officially cleared. Sloppy.

I also completely agree about Cena's lame win. ADR was doing great-he's got a great heel manager/announcer (I'm a big fan of the character of Ricardo Rodriguez), he had the fans hating him more and more...then suddenly, Cena just squashes him. Why? What purpose did it serve? If anything, you're further establishing how much more dominant Cena is than anyone else and that we shouldn't take any contenders seriously. And they've just totally killed ADR's credibility.

[zyxba]

I'm ok with Mark Henry getting the title. His heart don't pump Kool-Aid.

On the other hand, Del Rio having the rug pulled out from under him reeks of desperation, and may in the long run be a blow he can't recover from. This whole feud was Cena saying how Del Rio can't hang with him, and then Cena just beats him. How does this help solidify Del Rio at all?

[Thrumble Funk]

I think last night had a lot of disappointing things. In order of severity:

1. Mark Henry's win. I believe we've sufficiently covered this enough for the moment.

I'm fine with letting them convince me it'll work.

2. Cena's win. Totally unnecessary. I'm blanking on what could be gained from this aside from the WWE kickstarting the humbling phase of ADR's career.

Adds ZERO to the storylines. I've seen Cena's champion schtick nine times. VERY MUCH doubt this'll be anything different.

3. HHH's win. I'm not as annoyed with that as I probably should be. There was so much interference last night that no one is going to be able to convince me that Punk is buried just because he got Pedigreed and pinned.

Yeah, no way in hell is this over. Plus, I think matches like that are usually of a high enough quality (workrate-wise) that it doesn't really matter who "loses."

4. Air Boom. Nothing to do with the wrestlers or the match, I just hate that they're really sticking with that name. Air Boom sounds like a euphemism for farting.

Digging that it inadvertently led to a more aggressive Miz/Truth.

[MechaFan]

I sincerely do not understand giving Cena the strap. He DOES NOT NEED IT, particularly going into a match that has been a hotly-anticipated main event since it was announced.

Exatly. Guys that are not biggest names in company need that title so that they can get push to become big names. Those like Cena and Orton are already big names. Giving them titles over and over again is pointless.

Way they buried ADR was similar how they buried Christian. I think that ADR has done good job as heel so burying him was harmful for him and it will take lot of time for him to recover from that. Expesially when they made him look so weak in proces.

[LQBigCountry]

Oh god...

From wwe.com:

The Muppets come to Raw on Halloween night
September 19, 2011

To celebrate their first theatrical release in more than a decade – Disney’s "The Muppets," opening this Thanksgiving – the Muppets will step into the ring on the Oct. 31 WWE Raw SuperShow to mix it up with the Superstars in Atlanta.

In the new film, "The Muppets," the crew is on a mission to save the Muppet Theater from demolition. (OFFICIAL TRAILER) But before that, they'll have to save themselves from our Superstars!

What will happen when Kermit the Frog meets The Viper? Will the Divas make Miss Piggy flip with jealousy? Will Beaker be confused for Sheamus? On Halloween, it's time to play the music, it's time to light the lights, because the Muppets are about to get Raw!

[Thrumble Funk]

Oh god...

From wwe.com:

That is just going to be a cluster!@#$ of surreal ridiculousness. Can't say I'm opposed to the idea...

[MechaFan]

Do they really think that this could work. But then again this is clearly attempt to draw more kids.

[The Darkstone]

Not particularly upset that Henry took the title. I mean, hell, at least it's not Orton. Honestly, I think Mark will retain during their rematch at Hell in a Cell, and then drop at the next PPV. I hope it will be towards Barrett, but it will most likely be Christian or Sheamus.

I am upset about Cena winning the title. Though to be honest, it always seems that it has to be one experienced title holder and one newbie. As in, Del Rio and Mark Henry would not work as champs at the same time since neither of them have drawing power.

Cody retained, so I am happy about that.

Ziggler retained and I am very surprised by that. He is solid in-ring but he hasn't done anything with the title lately so I was hoping for a change.

Awesome Truth vs Air Boom. I am not complaining about this at all. First, it's a shot in the arm for a dead tag team division. I mean, we are getting teams with silly names again, this is wonderful. Besides, I am glad that Kofi and Evan have titles and will get air time.

In terms of Awesome Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrYGGPKdeg0&feature=player_embedded#!

If you can watch that and not be slightly amused in any manner, then we just can't connect on any level.

Trips vs Punk. It just seemed like a mess.

All in all, it wasn't the worst PPV, but it could have been better. It just left me wanting #OneMoreMatch

[Fredwood]

A bit of disappointing show as far as results go, however the in-ring stuff was very strong. A particular big nod to the US championship match, they did a good job of integrating more than 2 competitors at once, the storyline of the match was simple and stayed in the ring (for the most part), and saw a typical and enjoyable Ziggler finish, he's quickly becoming one of my favorites in my mind Match of the Night. The opening match I thought ended well while still making Truth-Miz look strong but still giving them fuel. I liked the Beatdown of Corey Feldman.

My prediction about Mark Henry came true, VINDICATION, now I'm not saying whether he deserved it or not, but when they turned him on the Draft I felt it was for one last big push and a swan song championship run. I will give him credit he has been more entertaining in the last few months than at any other time in his career (although I got a kick out of Sexual chocolate, until the whole hand thing...), and he's as entertaining as Orton is on the mic so I don't see that as a detriment. They've tried to rehab the Worlds Title since they gave it to Khali, but I still can't help but see him with the belt, and I figure Henry is much better than that so why not give him the belt as a transitional thing (or to give it back to Orton again for the 10th time). I remember the same sort of feeling when JBL won his championship from people, but he turned out to have a great run. In the end I don't see why someone should be upset by the result, as it is the lesser show, and they're putting even less emphasis on the show now with Super Smackdown.

Also Cena winning...ugh, and what the hell was with that last match? Are they afraid to give Punk a clean match, ever? All he's had was murky finishes. I guess the only salvageable thing is that it took a crap ton of stuff for HHH to beat Punk. Also with the massive amount of Texting Johnny Ace did, the power struggle storyline is an easy one to see coming. I just hope we don't have a Tag Team match up with HHH and Punk vs Johnny Ace and Diesel (or Truth and Miz), please don't do that, put the Punk feud on the back burner sure, but don't have them work together.

[Arsenalroy2k]

After thinking about it today, I think my annoyance with Henry's title win isn't so much the fault of the WWE. They've given the title before to people who weren't particularly good at anything, and in all likelihood, they will again. Business as usual.

I think the real problem here is that I see these supportive reactions for Henry's win (here and numerous elsewheres on the web) and to me, they just reek of phoniness. For 15 years, I have seen fans (not just myself) respond to Mark Henry with either ambivalence or scorn. This didn't really change even months ago when he started getting pushed into the main event. But now he gets this token win, and everyone's coming out to support him after the fact. Where were these people over the last 15 years?

Anyways... back to other stuff:

And they've just totally killed ADR's credibility.

Dial it back a notch. ADR will be fine. Considering how many people have lost to Cena, it is not the end of the world if this is anything like the other humbling processes other first time champs have gone through.

The Muppets come to Raw on Halloween night

#### YES.

I'm calling it now: Miss Piggy beats up Vickie Guerrero.

[spike1138]

I'm calling it now: Miss Piggy beats up Vickie Guerrero.

I see Ziggler somehow confusing Miss Piggy with Vickie...

[KO Bossy]

They've just released the poster for Survivor Series (http://wrestling.insidepulse.com/2011/09/19/survivor-series-tag-match-confirmed-for-ppv-john-cena-the-rock-involved/). Kinda gave things away, I'm guessing to boost ticket sales. As for the actual angle, its sorta confusing. How they're gonna incorporate this in the buildup to Mania will be interesting.

[PhoenixFire]

Okay, we'll be specific. I want to see *your* support of Mark Henry from say... 2-3 years ago. Better yet, I'd like you to put together a list of the five greatest promos Mark Henry has ever done and the ten greatest matches he's ever had. I want you to show me the run that made his win last night an overdue thing. Show me the amazing work that was passed over in favor of others.

Whoa, That doesn't answer anything I asked of you in terms of you being vague. Your supposed out of the blue responses that you mentioned are lacking as is the evidence that makes them out of the blue.


Then I wouldn't believe that for a second.

Of course you wouldn't...you have already deluded yourself into a narrow mindset that anyone supporting Mark Henry's title win is a fraud and dishonest in their congratulations to the man. It's well known that I am a huge Sheamus fan. This doesn't mean I don't support other wrestlers in their rise to what's due. There is also no way for me to convince you otherwise....you are set in your ways.


No, his ring attributes are not pretty good. In fact, the only reason it could be considered that he moves well is because all the better big men in the company aren't currently around.

Better big men must mean Kane, who has been a little lacking as of late, and the Big Show who I believe is the current top big man in the biz(excluding Undertaker of course). These two men missing in action (due to Mark) don't take away any of Henry's natural ability to provide a good show for the audience. He has been given what seems a final shot to the top and he is steamrolling into it.


Right. So in other words, they could stick anyone in that spot and achieve the same results. Which means Mark isn't particularly special, and certainly not deserving of the main spot in the company.

Not anyone...I believe there are only a select few who can pull the monstrous streak storyline. Mark is one of them.


The fact they rolled out "stock monster angle #X" is not really taking preparation and effort. It's also not overdue because there's nothing to show that Mark Henry has been showing great ringwork and exemplary promo work his whole career.

It's his 15th year in the company. That's nice. Thank him for his work and move on. Managing to hang in there doesn't make someone World Championship material.

Considering your stock monster angle has been months in the making is the definition of preparation and effort.

15 years in WWE with attempts to refine Mark's work and taking the time to help him with injuries and progress is something Vince has been doing. We have all read and know what kind of man Vince is. It's business first. If he didn't think Mark Henry had potential to become a champ at some point he would have dropped him a long time ago. The word PITY and Vince aren't in association and neither are PITY and Mark's title win.....regardless of what you might think.

[PhoenixFire]

Yep. And Mark Henry manhandling the Big Show (see also: Mr. Perfect Perfect-Plexing Big Show; Brock Lesnar superplexing Big Show and breaking the ring) was a fun little "Well holy ####!" moment, IMO.

The perfect-plex on the Big Show is still mentioned every now and then at our WWE gatherings as a "holy #### moment" :grin:

[Arsenalroy2k]

Whoa, That doesn't answer anything I asked of you in terms of you being vague.

Well, do you really need it to be explained to you that there are other forums where people discuss wrestling? And you need links to all of them? Try Google, man.

Of course you wouldn't...you have already deluded yourself into a narrow mindset that anyone supporting Mark Henry's title win is a fraud and dishonest in their congratulations to the man.

Believe me, I'd love to not be cynical in this case. But when I see nothing but wrestling fans trashing Mark Henry (or just feeling ambivalent about him) for fifteen years and all of a sudden see posts popping up saying they're say they've pleased he became world champion. Yeah, I can't help but to say there's something tough to believe there. Especially given how fickle wrestling fans can be, myself included.

Seriously, where was this Pro-Henry crowd five years ago? Ten? Fifteen?

These two men missing in action (due to Mark) don't take away any of Henry's natural ability to provide a good show for the audience.

Being away? That's correct. Because it's impossible for people who aren't around to make someone look inferior. Now when Taker/Kane/Show return... Mark's going to look a lot worse.

We have all read and know what kind of man Vince is. It's business first.

Absolutely. And we also know that in this business, Vince has made mistakes. I would say this certainly qualifies this as one of them.

[turdburglar47]

I was unaware of the Big Show Perfect Plex. This I must see.

Also, firing Miz and Truth can only lead to awesome things.

[michiganj24]

Can you smell it in the air...the smell of spray paint

N





W




O

[KO Bossy]

Oh yeah, this TOTALLY wreaks of an nWo like angle. Now that Truth and Miz are "fired", Nash may just come along and recruit them and invade, creating anarchy to bring down Triple H.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Oh yeah, this TOTALLY wreaks of an nWo like angle. Now that Truth and Miz are "fired", Nash may just come along and recruit them and invade, creating anarchy to bring down Triple H.

I'm not sure if I should feel dread or anticipation of how crazy those promos are going to be.

[KO Bossy]

I'm not sure if I should feel dread or anticipation of how crazy those promos are going to be.

And then a hooded figure is gonna come down to the ring, and the hood will come off and all we'll hear is "ITS ME, AUSTIN! IT WAS ME ALL ALONG, AUSTIN!" Except its John Laurinaitis this time. He'll be the Eric Bischoff of the operation. And then Punk will recruit the RoH guys, and they'll be like the Wolfpac. And then out of nowhere, Samoa Joe will come in to do the WWE version of the Goldberg streak.

[zyxba]

The Miz and Truth firings definitely have me intrigued.

I was amused that they had Hugh Jackman there, and used him to give Zack Ryder the rub.

The Swagger-Vickie-Dolph triangle is interesting. I'd like to see managers with multiple clients again, or even managers in general (though Vickie and Ricardo is at least a good start).

The Women's angle is just so bad right now, I've already lost all interest. Seriously, how are you considered dominant if you can't freaking beat Kelly Kelly?

Also enjoyed Mark Henry take out Lawler. I can only hope this leads to a break for him.

[KO Bossy]

I, too, am intrigued by Miz and Truth getting canned. They're entertaining as a tag team. And I'm really into Swagger/Dolph. Dolph has improved leaps and bounds over the past year, and I enjoy watching him. He and Swagger should put on a good program.

[Arsenalroy2k]

I was amused that they had Hugh Jackman there, and used him to give Zack Ryder the rub.

Two things I learned from that segment: First, that Ryder is reaping the benefits of Santino being on the shelf right now. Because if he wasn't, we'd have gotten a backstage segment involving him dressed up in an X-Men costume.

The second thing is that "Real Steel" must be a royal hunk of poop if the star has to promote it on Raw.

The Women's angle is just so bad right now, I've already lost all interest. Seriously, how are you considered dominant if you can't freaking beat Kelly Kelly?

Obviously people are learning to stop underestimating Kelly Kelly. Underneath her firmly toned and bubbly exterior lies a tortured soul; a darkness that is consuming her well-being and forcing her to vent her frustrations on things other than the cats she routinely strangles in seedy motel rooms. The Divas should beware, lest they be her next target.

[zyxba]

Obviously people are learning to stop underestimating Kelly Kelly. Underneath her firmly toned and bubbly exterior lies a tortured soul; a darkness that is consuming her well-being and forcing her to vent her frustrations on things other than the cats she routinely strangles in seedy motel rooms. The Divas should beware, lest they be her next target.

Kelly Kelly = Monster of the women's division, and not just because she pees in sinks!

[Arsenalroy2k]

Kelly Kelly = Monster of the women's division, and not just because she pees in sinks!

Repped for a reference that suits discussion of that animal. People have to wash their hands there, Kelly! How DARE you!

[vamroc]

Search the net maybe you'll find them. What do you mean out of the blue? The realms? That term is so vague.
It's not vague the term refers to something that happens in an unexpected manor.



Again, you come off as being the omnipotent one that knows exactly what's in the mind of people using the overdue respect argument. Pompous much? What if I told that in reality I really wanted the man to win the title. Not due to the fact that Cena/Orton have been the poster boys for the past so on years but because if given the ample opportunity, Mark has what it takes to actually hold the title and make a decent run with whatever time his career has left. I wouldn't welcome just anyone to the scene. Santino? Hell no...Ziggler? pft...Jackson? Naw
As far as talent being secondary goes it's like that with just about everyone in the biz. Showmanship and Mic prowess are first.

He's pragmatic I'M OMNIPOTENT GET IT RIGHT:laugh:


I'll give you this....his mic skills are the weakest thing about him. His ring attributes are pretty good for a man his size and age. He moves far better than most big men I've seen as of late and his standing kick to Orton's face today was evidence of that. What makes a person world title material isn't just determined by their skill, looks, or talent. You're a devoted fan. You know it's all on the shoulders of the ticket buyers, merchandise wearers, and PPV orderers. Sad but true...this is kind of vague on my part. I'll emphasize later.

Mark Henry IS THE SARAH PALIN OF THE WWE, his mic skill are weak, his "abilities" are limited to pushing people around, the slap/chop, body slams, and other power moves. Since Mark looks like a gorilla and performs like circus animal he gets to keep his job.




Wiki agrees with you there. He has gone through some bad times. I remember Eddie Guerrero doing the same before his big break but you're mentioning things that are years in the past. In recent times most evil heels are the types that run away at first sign of conflict, take the low road, and hide behind cronies. At least Mark has been given a prouder display of terror in terms of tearing off steel cage doors, man handling men larger than him, and continuing to plow through the competition whether it be Kane, Show, or even Sheamus. You're also right on the Bank shot not being a pity title but it could be used that way should WWE ever want it to be.

Mistakes KILL carriers and while I was never a big Eddie Guerrero fan the more of a jerk he became the more fun he was to watch. In a large company tick off the wrong boss and your working the mail room or worse for the next 10 years. No, Mark hasn't been given a prouder display he's playing to a stereotype AND NOT A GOOD ONE he's a big, black, THUG. HHH makes a GREAT villain precisely because he gets other people to do his dirty work for him. The MASTERMIND is the best type of villain and almost always the hardest to take down. Which is why I really miss Vince nobody played "The Mastermind" better then him.




When it really comes down to it isn't it all a series of stunts for whomever is on the path to the title? It happens all the time. The fact that they took the time, preparation, and effort to give Henry a huge push proves that WWE wants to give him the credit he deserves which is long OVERDUE. It's not much different from Show's big intro that you mentioned except this isn't Mark's big intro. It's around his 15th year in the WWE. They rehash the same monstrous streak every so often. Kane might be the next one to go through this and Mark has had this before in ECW.
They gave Henry the title because Raw has a weak roster
The Undertaker (injured)
Edge (Retired)
HHH (semi retired)
Kane (injured)
Christian (ANNOYING)
Orton (tiresome)
Cena (he won't have that title for long again because people are tired of him winning it)
Del Rio (needs more experience)
Rey Mysterio (skilled but has a hard time being credible against contenders like HHH)
The Big Show (Injured and NO ONE CARES)
THE MIZ & R-TRUTH FIRED IN EPIC FASHION best ending to Raw EVER
The rest of the roaster has NO CHANCE in hell so that leaves Mark Henry as the de facto "champ" who will loose the title in a month or two when one of the more credible title holders returns and by credible I mean A CHAMPION WITH CHARISMA.

[zyxba]

I can't complain about Mizark too much. Partially because he might eat me.

But they've managed to make him look like an unstoppable monster who doesn't follow the rules, and doesn't care who gets in his way. It's a good strategy, and it's paid off, as a lot of people are at least interested in him, no matter how just ok Mark Henry matches are. Mark isn't going to go out there and have a ***** classic, but sometimes it just needs to be can the underdog hero manage to beat the villian.

Out of curiousity, I assume the same people hated the rebirth of Viscera as Big Daddy V?

[Arsenalroy2k]

Out of curiousity, I assume the same people hated the rebirth of Viscera as Big Daddy V?

Rebirth? Speaking for myself, I didn't care what he called himself; Mabel, Viscera, Big Daddy V... he was atrocious.

And I'll say this; Mark Henry might suck, but Viscera makes Sexual Chocolate look like Bret Hart in comparison.

[Bubblehead]

Loved the fact that I was watching Botchamania and you could hear people chanting "Mae was pregnant" at Henry in a match. HILARIOUS!

I'm one of the fans who is pleasantly surprised to find Henry has won the title. Just a nice breath of fresh air for the exact reason that it's not SuperOrton or SuperCena.

Have to imagine that Del Rio will win the title back at Hell in a Cell for the WWE Mexico tour.

And boy is Morrison in the doghouse. He might even be "future endeavored" soon. He's a pretty stupid man. Love to watch him wrassle but can't make a business decision to save his life.

[turdburglar47]

Kelly Kelly = Monster of the women's division, and not just because she pees in sinks!

Is this a thing?

I want Beth and Natalya to steamroll. NOW.

[Arsenalroy2k]

I want Beth and Natalya to steamroll. NOW.

Seems like a weird thing to have them do, but I guess it'd be fun to watch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6v_pX6gDw4)

[zyxba]

Rebirth? Speaking for myself, I didn't care what he called himself; Mabel, Viscera, Big Daddy V... he was atrocious.

And I'll say this; Mark Henry might suck, but Viscera makes Sexual Chocolate look like Bret Hart in comparison.

The character development was similar at least. Go from a large guy with a silly sexual gimmick, to becoming a dominant monster heel.

Unlike Big Daddy V, Henry is getting results other than setting new records for showing manboob on tv.

[zyxba]

Is this a thing?

I want Beth and Natalya to steamroll. NOW.

This is a thing. I wish it weren't a thing, but it is.

[MechaFan]

I would had loved to see Beth Pheonix become divas champion instead of Kelly Kelly retaining becouse she can actually wrestle. Then again women's wrestling has not been WWE's strenght and it never will be. In WWE divas are mostly just there to be eye candy and what they can do is limited so that they can make even worst men in company look good. In TNA they have this little better but not much if you compare it to something like japanese women's wrestling.

[michiganj24]

I almost guarantee that Cena loses at HITC. Either ABR wins due to the Laurentis World Order or Punk pulls the shocker so he can defend the title while team Brahma Fruity Pebbles fights the LWO


Have to imagine that Del Rio will win the title back at Hell in a Cell for the WWE Mexico tour.

And boy is Morrison in the doghouse. He might even be "future endeavored" soon. He's a pretty stupid man. Love to watch him wrassle but can't make a business decision to save his life.

[PaxZRake]

I can see only one thing coming out of this...

The return of the BWO!

[JGonspy]

The second thing is that "Real Steel" must be a royal hunk of poop if the star has to promote it on Raw.


Are you having doubts about a movie based on Rock'em Sock'em Robots? Next thing you'll tell me is that the Battleship movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8aUNa9PnRY) looks stupid.

[turdburglar47]

This is a thing. I wish it weren't a thing, but it is.


So Kelly Kelly pees in sinks? What's the context for that?

Also, what has Morrison done for doghouse duty?

[zyxba]

Photos Turd.

Apparently Melina rubs everyone the wrong way backstage, and due to them being a couple, he gets some of the heat, especially since he defends her. Then she gets fired, and she comes to the next set of shows with him. Thus making people more mad.

That's the internet rumor of choice AFAIK.

[KO Bossy]

I almost guarantee that Cena loses at HITC. Either ABR wins due to the Laurentis World Order or Punk pulls the shocker so he can defend the title while team Brahma Fruity Pebbles fights the LWO

Laurinaitis World Order...LWO...which also stands for Latin World Order...perfect segue into introducing the newest WWE employee, KONNAN!

[Fredwood]

So Kelly Kelly pees in sinks? What's the context for that?

Also, what has Morrison done for doghouse duty?

She was drunk at a party and the toilet was being used apparently and she used the sink, then someone snapped a photo while she was doing rock on hand gestures. I don't know if she was doing the hand gestures before someone decided to take the photo, I bet she also said whooooo, probably because someone gave one of the other party goers a knife edge chop.

[Fredwood]

Laurinaitis World Order...LWO...which also stands for Latin World Order...perfect segue into introducing the newest WWE employee, KONNAN!


really? That's surprising, not because he shouldn't work anywhere or anything, but because of the whole youth movement, I doubt they'll give him a fair run. Unless its for an announcer's position like he wanted before.

[KO Bossy]

really? That's surprising, not because he shouldn't work anywhere or anything, but because of the whole youth movement, I doubt they'll give him a fair run. Unless its for an announcer's position like he wanted before.

Errr I was just joking...:nervous:

[Arsenalroy2k]

So Kelly Kelly pees in sinks? What's the context for that?

Let's be honest, is there any positive context for peeing in a sink?

As for Melina, here's the current rumor circulating about her latest shenanigans and how it's ruining Morrison's career:
WWE Diva Natalya helped foil an audacious attempt by ex Diva Melina to involve herself in last nights Divas tag match in Cleveland. On Monday afternoon Natalya recieved a text message from Melina claiming she was in Cleveland, had a ticket for the Raw show and asking "If I jump KK (Kelly Kelly), you will play ball right?"

Natalya presumed this was a joke, but showed it to the Divas' liaison who after alerting WWE security then asked her to ring Melina to find out exactly what she had planned. The conversation, which Natalya put on loud-speaker with several members of the lockeroom present included a rambling and possibly under the influence Melina suggesting that attacking Kelly live on Raw would get her a job back as a Diva as "Vince loves reality angles"

Sure enough Melina was spotted in the queue for the show with a ticket. Unlike what she may have witnessed on WWE television, she was to find out that WWE are actually allowed to turn people away whether they have a ticket to the show or not. A humiliated Melina was warned that the next time she tries something like this the police will be involved.

Not for the first time Melina's on-off boyfriend John Morrison bore the brunt of her misadventure. He was asked to "keep his woman under control" and his in-ring appearance was that 30 second squash defeat to Alberto Del Rio.

[spike1138]

Jeez. Why in the world does Morrison keep letting Melina drag him down?

[LQBigCountry]

Roy, what is the source for that story?

[Fredwood]

Errr I was just joking...:nervous:

Well...don't I feel silly.

[Thrumble Funk]

I love that CM Punk is legitimately pushing to get WWE ice cream bars back. (http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/CM_Punk_Discusses_WWE_Ice_Cream_Bars_Teases_New_Treats_Coming_Soon.html)

[spike1138]

I love that CM Punk is legitimately pushing to get WWE ice cream bars back. (http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/CM_Punk_Discusses_WWE_Ice_Cream_Bars_Teases_New_Treats_Coming_Soon.html)

I read this line in the link above:

"WWE's Future Plans for Punk on RAW Revealed, Revealing Kelly Kelly Personal Candids, Big News on John Cena and MORE!"

and the first thing that came to mind was, "someone took pics of Kelly Kelly peeing in the sink! :o"

:laugh:

[Thrumble Funk]

and the first thing that came to mind was, "someone took pics of Kelly Kelly peeing in the sink! :o"

:laugh:

Probably the first moderately entertaining thing she's done to date.

[michiganj24]

And it appears he has suceeded

I still blame their failure last time on teh fact that they used Bastion Booger to promote them on TV....Cuz that is the guy I want to take food recommendation from
I love that CM Punk is legitimately pushing to get WWE ice cream bars back. (http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/CM_Punk_Discusses_WWE_Ice_Cream_Bars_Teases_New_Treats_Coming_Soon.html)

[coyotejack]

I love that CM Punk is legitimately pushing to get WWE ice cream bars back. (http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/CM_Punk_Discusses_WWE_Ice_Cream_Bars_Teases_New_Treats_Coming_Soon.html)

There's a Facebook page with a million likes for the little buggers. lol That was beefore he wore his Punk/Ice Cream bar shirt on Raw. heh heh

[coyotejack]

Laurinaitis World Order...LWO...which also stands for Latin World Order...perfect segue into introducing the newest WWE employee, KONNAN!

I was hoping more for OFF "Old Fart Faction" with Shane Douglas coming out and blasting someone with a skateboard. :laugh:

[zyxba]

So, what did everyone think of RAW? I had to work thru it.

I'm not sure I like HHH embarassing all the midcard heels. That seems rather counterproductive.

I am glad to see that Miz and Truth weren't there. They need to be off tv for a bit, perhaps do some Indy appearances for this angle to really work.

[Fredwood]

So, what did everyone think of RAW? I had to work thru it.

I'm not sure I like HHH embarassing all the midcard heels. That seems rather counterproductive.

I am glad to see that Miz and Truth weren't there. They need to be off tv for a bit, perhaps do some Indy appearances for this angle to really work.

I've come to expect it from Hunter he's been doing that for years, why would he stop now, but I thought they all did very well on the mic, and you can see them coming into their own as a characters. They called him on his hypocrisy and he did little to prove them wrong.

I was surprised how hot the KC crowd was, for pretty much the whole night, very impressed and added to the show. Enjoyed Punk back on commentary, and whenever he retires I can't wait for him to do color. Thank god there wasn't an actual Henry Khali match, that would have been abysmal. The rest of the in ring stuff was entertaining enough so I felt it was a decent show for a go home.

[michiganj24]

Yeah the heels looked weak...lets see if this leads to the lawsuit after all (SNORE)

Cody looked great to retian a title in a battle royal

Ziggler looked weak needing Swagger to beat Zack and then losing in a tag to him (via Mason turn) I expect Dolph's US title days are numbered

Cara vs Cara remind sme of the GOOD ol WCW days. Makes me wish guys like Super Crazy, Tajiri and Essa Rios were here

[LQBigCountry]

I was not a fan of Hunter verbally going over a bunch of up and coming heels. I'm hoping there is a good payoff to this, otherwise it makes them look weak and worthless.

As for Miz and Truth, i guess they "crashed" a WWE house show over the weekend. I'd expect them to come in as part of Otunga's lawsuit on Sunday at the PPV or Monday at Raw.

[lensnart]

I have always paid attention to wrestling but I have really gotten back into the swing of WWE in the last few months and I have to say I love what I see. Other than Randy I find almost all of the top tier guys interesting. And the current heels are fantastic. Guys like Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, and the Miz and R-Truth are like a welcome return to 80's bad guy shenanigans. Any of those guys would be right at home in an episode of Rock'n Wrestling.

At first I thought i would hate the return of HHH, because he is boring. But it turns out he isn't so bad as long as he stays in the suit, the union of evil storyline is a lot better fit for him than being unarmed in a battle of wits with CM Punk each week.

Speaking of CM Punk has he accepted Cena's invitation to the prom yet. It seems like those last two matches has left Cena smitten, like all his life he has been waiting for someone that could beat him regularly to be the Roddy Piper to his Hulk Hogan. I am sure Del Rios is just in the three-way because Punk asked for a chaperon so that things don't get too weird.

[MechaFan]

With all logic whole "Otunga's lawsuit" angle can't go well for him and others even if its just story line. After all its supposed to be lawsuit against huge corporation that is WWE that has lot of money and army of lawers.

[LQBigCountry]

Let's be honest, is there any positive context for peeing in a sink?

As for Melina, here's the current rumor circulating about her latest shenanigans and how it's ruining Morrison's career:

WWE Diva Natalya helped foil an audacious attempt by ex Diva Melina to involve herself in last nights Divas tag match in Cleveland. On Monday afternoon Natalya recieved a text message from Melina claiming she was in Cleveland, had a ticket for the Raw show and asking "If I jump KK (Kelly Kelly), you will play ball right?"

Natalya presumed this was a joke, but showed it to the Divas' liaison who after alerting WWE security then asked her to ring Melina to find out exactly what she had planned. The conversation, which Natalya put on loud-speaker with several members of the lockeroom present included a rambling and possibly under the influence Melina suggesting that attacking Kelly live on Raw would get her a job back as a Diva as "Vince loves reality angles"

Sure enough Melina was spotted in the queue for the show with a ticket. Unlike what she may have witnessed on WWE television, she was to find out that WWE are actually allowed to turn people away whether they have a ticket to the show or not. A humiliated Melina was warned that the next time she tries something like this the police will be involved.

Not for the first time Melina's on-off boyfriend John Morrison bore the brunt of her misadventure. He was asked to "keep his woman under control" and his in-ring appearance was that 30 second squash defeat to Alberto Del Rio.

Natalya's Tweet addressing the rumor:

Ahem! I'm putting an end to this once and for all! Never received a text from Melina about anything...except more Gismo photos!

[Arsenalroy2k]

Natalya's Tweet addressing the rumor:

Well of course that'd be the response. What's she going to do, say "Yes, it's all true: A lunatic called me and almost caused an on-air incident"?

[LQBigCountry]

Well of course that'd be the response. What's she going to do, say "Yes, it's all true: A lunatic called me and almost caused an on-air incident"?

If you're going to say that i shouldn't believe everything i read, i'd tell you the same thing. Some rumor whose source is "some message board" that no credible news page(Torch, Meltzer, Prowreslting.net) reports on, probably didn't happen.

Besides, why would she "read the text aloud for everyone to hear" then a week later protect the lunatic by saying it didn't happen?

[Arsenalroy2k]

If you're going to say that i shouldn't believe everything i read, i'd tell you the same thing. Some rumor whose source is "some message board" that no credible news page(Torch, Meltzer, Prowreslting.net) reports on, probably didn't happen.

First off, I never said the story was true. But there's two things to remember:

1. Just because a person denies something, doesn't mean it's not true. Saying something never happened is at the very least an attempt to distance oneself from something that might be scandalous. Natalya isn't protecting Melina, she's protecting herself.

2. As far as dirtsheets go, not posting something that's sounds crazy doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means they're protecting themselves from potential (further) embarrassment. Lord knows there's plenty of wild stories about people in the wrestling industry that can't be published due to the nature of them. Doesn't mean they didn't happen.

The problem with dirtsheets isn't just whether the stories are true or false, it's also that there's such an inherent bias by the people writing for them. That a news/gossip item that is picked to be covered, believable or not, is just there to push their own self-promoting agendas.

[KO Bossy]

First off, I never said the story was true. But there's two things to remember:

1. Just because a person denies something, doesn't mean it's not true. Saying something never happened is at the very least an attempt to distance oneself from something that might be scandalous. Natalya isn't protecting Melina, she's protecting herself.

2. As far as dirtsheets go, not posting something that's sounds crazy doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means they're protecting themselves from potential (further) embarrassment. Lord knows there's plenty of wild stories about people in the wrestling industry that can't be published due to the nature of them. Doesn't mean they didn't happen.

The problem with dirtsheets isn't just whether the stories are true or false, it's also that there's such an inherent bias by the people writing for them. That a news/gossip item that is picked to be covered, believable or not, is just there to push their own self-promoting agendas.

Bolded part is exactly right. After all, people will say John Cena doesn't need to be a heel for Wrestlemania, and that's clearly true. ;)

[Fredwood]

With all logic whole "Otunga's lawsuit" angle can't go well for him and others even if its just story line. After all its supposed to be lawsuit against huge corporation that is WWE that has lot of money and army of lawers.

But he's a lawyer, from Harvard. His Law Degree from Harvard, you know Harvard.

[zyxba]

I went to Chicago this weekend and watched 2 days of SHIMMER dvd tapings. Good times, and I highly recommend the coming shows, especially volume 44 to anyone who likes quality wrestling, female or not.

So what does everyone think of this big Vote Of No Confidence thing on RAW?

[Thrumble Funk]

Thoughts on Raw:

1. Mark Henry continues to impress me on the mic, and I'm digging him in the "monster heel" role.

2. So The Nexus can come in, kick the crap out of literally EVERYONE, and the locker room is okay. Miz + R-Truth beat up some guys, and everyone is running in fear? Huh. So...I guess Awesome Truth > The Nexus?

3. The Otunga angle could lead to some fun stuff.

[PaxZRake]

I agree that MizTruth is better than the Nexus.

Wade and Gabriel could only carry them so far, ya know?

[Thrumble Funk]

I agree that MizTruth is better than the Nexus.

Wade and Gabriel could only carry them so far, ya know?

Still a let-down that Sheffield got injured. He'd be up there too if not.

[PaxZRake]

I miss Barrett's Nexus :(

Is anyone else expecting a crazy Morrison Heel turn? He get's ####ted on so much lately, he's got to snap. Might make him interesting on the mic too.

[Thrumble Funk]

I miss Barrett's Nexus :(

Is anyone else expecting a crazy Morrison Heel turn? He get's ####ted on so much lately, he's got to snap. Might make him interesting on the mic too.

Eh, heel Morrison isn't much better mic-wise than face Morrison.

[PaxZRake]

Don't dash my hopes! I want Morrison to be a main eventer!

[zyxba]

That'll come in time, probably some time after he and Melina break up.

[MechaFan]

Yeah. Unless he dumbs Melina he never will be main eventer. Its sad reality that in pro-wrestling things like these matter more than talent and skill.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Is anyone else expecting a crazy Morrison Heel turn? He get's ####ted on so much lately, he's got to snap. Might make him interesting on the mic too.

I'd only see Morrison turning heel if they turned someone else face, as they have a LOT of heels running around right now.

But yes, I'll echo the sentiments of others; he ain't getting pushed again until he stops letting his chick drag him down.

[LQBigCountry]

"In accordance with its Talent Wellness Program, WWE has suspended Fred Rosser (Darren Young) for 30 days effective Wednesday, Oct. 5, for his first violation of the company’s policy."

Strike one for the South Beach Party Boy!

Who cares...

[MechaFan]

I can't say that I would remember Darren Young at all. Then again maybe he has been in Superstars or some other small WWE show becouse least he has not been in either main shows.

[Arsenalroy2k]

NOOOOO! Black Cena, why? WHY? How can you do this to your fan?

[Thrumble Funk]

Huh. Here's something.

Vince Russo no longer head writer for TNA (http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/tna/Vince_Russo_Removed_As_The_Head_Writer_Of_TNA.html)

Not that it ultimately matters, as TNA seems to be allergic to progress, but there it is.

[MechaFan]

So Vince Russo is gone. Now only if TNA would drop some of those old guys and bring back focus to young guys. Sure X-Division has got some attention and air time but more would be even better.

[zyxba]

Probably a good move. TNA's recent episodes have been more focused and better overall, and that's one of the things the company really needs. Vince Russo, with other people over him can lead to some good tv still as well.

[Arsenalroy2k]

So Vince Russo is gone.

He's not gone. He's still there, just not as head writer.

Plus, there's still Bischoff and Hogan running things, so I'm unconvinced that this is that big of a change.

[LQBigCountry]

Last night may have been one of the worst Raw's in recent memory! I think every match or 5/6 matches started and went straight to commercial, faces alligned with heels in non-sensical fashion, HHH was relieved of his duties as Raw G.M.(when was he Raw G.M.?), Vince who was relieved of his duties held a secret meeting with board members and was picked to be the one to deliver the message that his services were no longer required, and fans were told that Cena would wrestle Sheamus just to kill time to start the show??? This was a show to put your best foot forward and WWE fumbled in my opinion. I think that WWE did a great job promoting this walkout and they created buzz for tonights show and they did not deliver with a good follow up.

I wish WWE would stop with these angles that go nowhere and never get resolved. Mark my words, we will never find out who was sabatoging Hunter and find out who was pulling strings. The story has already shifted to finding a new G.M. and having Johnny Ace be the heel temporary G.M. I guarentee that the sabatoging of Hunters time as G.M. joins the ranks of the anonymous Raw G.M., who texted Kevin Nash, and why Nexus helped Kane bury Undertaker a year ago. Not to mention whatever happened to Nexus! I know they were heatless jobbers at the end of their run, but a reason for their breakup would have been nice.

I'm also going to say right now - John Morrison is no longer with WWE by 1/1/12. The signs are in place.

[zyxba]

Yeah, I read the first half hour of coverage, and thought it looked like something unique and special. (the report cut off at the commercial break into Sheamus/Cena), everything past that was a huge disappointment. Build up an angle as huge, and them immediately try to find ways to make it not special. Ugh.

[turdburglar47]

I totally thought CM Punk might come out there and call Cena a scab.

[Arsenalroy2k]

The show was way too promo heavy. And it's a shame because the concept of an ad-hoc Raw with the opening promo with the four faces was good. The should have stuck with that idea for the remainder of the night and THEN closed it with Vince rolling out Laurinaitis as the new GM.

[vamroc]

Last night may have been one of the worst Raw's in recent memory! I think every match or 5/6 matches started and went straight to commercial, faces alligned with heels in non-sensical fashion, HHH was relieved of his duties as Raw G.M.(when was he Raw G.M.?), Vince who was relieved of his duties held a secret meeting with board members and was picked to be the one to deliver the message that his services were no longer required, and fans were told that Cena would wrestle Sheamus just to kill time to start the show??? This was a show to put your best foot forward and WWE fumbled in my opinion. I think that WWE did a great job promoting this walkout and they created buzz for tonights show and they did not deliver with a good follow up.

I wish WWE would stop with these angles that go nowhere and never get resolved. Mark my words, we will never find out who was sabatoging Hunter and find out who was pulling strings. The story has already shifted to finding a new G.M. and having Johnny Ace be the heel temporary G.M. I guarentee that the sabatoging of Hunters time as G.M. joins the ranks of the anonymous Raw G.M., who texted Kevin Nash, and why Nexus helped Kane bury Undertaker a year ago. Not to mention whatever happened to Nexus! I know they were heatless jobbers at the end of their run, but a reason for their breakup would have been nice.

I'm also going to say right now - John Morrison is no longer with WWE by 1/1/12. The signs are in place.

This is all going to boil down to Stephanie having a "master plan" of some kind because she's the one who gave Kevin Nash HHH's phone which Kevin used to make the call to his own phone that night. I'm pretty sure the anonymous GM is Stephanie as for The Nexus thing it's simple they were a bunch of jobbers brought together to prop up Wade. Now that Wade no longer leads The Nexus there really isn't a need for there existence and I think Kane was supposed fill that role as leader. Since Kane got hurt that angle was ruined and as a result The WWE decided to cut their losses and dissolve the group what love about that is NO ONE NOTICED.

[spike1138]

I thought it would have been interesting if the four faces had done a round-robin RAW where everyone took turns being ref and announcer. Have fun wrasslin' while the walkouts watched outside the arena with envy.

Ah well.

[LQBigCountry]

Rock advertised for the Raw before Survivor Series

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/WWE_News_3/article_54144.shtml

Who broke the story to The Torch?

...this guy!

[MechaFan]

I hated that **** eating grin of the John Laurinaitis when he fired JR. Its kinda obious by now to me that he was behind everything. When CM Punk first mentioned that some one didn't want Triple H to run things I thought "it has to be Laurinaitis" and now I'm sure about it.

[The Darkstone]

Was I the only who marked out when CM Punk was going to be the announcer on Raw?

[spike1138]

Was I the only who marked out when CM Punk was going to be the announcer on Raw?

I thought it was great. I loved how Punk had raised his hand to volunteer for the match but Triple H was like, "Oh no, I've got a gig for you that you'll really like!"

[KO Bossy]

I said it to my Dad last night when we were watching and I'll say it again:

How did we go from absolute gold with Punk threatening to walk out and causing a near revolution in the industry to what we saw last night? It takes serious talent to screw things up this badly, especially considering how great they were for a while.

And what about the Nash World Order? When's that coming? Because if it isn't, then the past 2 months will have literally been pointless.

[Bubblehead]

Man, Morrison is getting buried. How many losses in a row?


Like the Stable that Vickie's got. 4 guys that could benefit from each other. Taking over things. Working for Johnny Ace.....who is behind everything.

Seriously. Survivor Series. That's the one where this will play out.


HHH vs Johnny Ace for the running of WWE. Something to that effect.

[Fredwood]

I would buy Survivor Series if Johnny Ace was in the elimination Tag match.

I know its a BS angle and stupid and illogical, but I love Johnny Ace's on screen ineptitude, Adamle was just painful, but Funkhouser is just entertaining, I'm sure they're playing it up, because its gold.

[Arsenalroy2k]

How did we go from absolute gold with Punk threatening to walk out and causing a near revolution in the industry to what we saw last night?

You ever hear the phrase "All good things must come to an end"? There you go. There was no way that angle was going to stay at that level forever. After you drop Hiroshima and Nagasaki sized "pipe bombs" on Cena and HHH, there's no way they're going to be able to follow it up.

And what about the Nash World Order? When's that coming?

Hopefully never. If that means the angle between him HHH and Punk was pointless, then so be it. It's bad enough with Laurinaitis around, bringing ol' crouton-knees back into the ring won't improve the situation.

Man, Morrison is getting buried.

He's definitely in the doghouse, that's for sure. Though at the same time, losing to world champions and upper-midcarders isn't exactly a burial. When he loses to Santino or Ryder, THEN he's buried.

Like the Stable that Vickie's got. 4 guys that could benefit from each other.

Isn't this "Agents of Change" stable five guys? Christian, Rhodes, Swagger, Ziggler and Otunga? That's a Survivor Series team right there.

[zyxba]

Isn't this "Agents of Change" stable five guys? Christian, Rhodes, Swagger, Ziggler and Otunga? That's a Survivor Series team right there.

With Del Rio, Miz, and Truth all seemingly interconnected to it, and on top of that, no real reason to separate McGillicuty unless they're sending him back down to FCW.

[mike_houghton]

Miz and Truth beat the snot out of ADR...I hope he isnt with them lol

[zyxba]

And yet Del Rio was very much involved in the no confidence thing, and quit on Punk to let awesome truth pound on punk(in theory), not to mention Del Rio being a part of the evil mastermind squad they put together a few weeks before.

[Fredwood]

He's definitely in the doghouse, that's for sure. Though at the same time, losing to world champions and upper-midcarders isn't exactly a burial. When he loses to Santino or Ryder, THEN he's buried.



I dunno, it seems they change with week to week on how they want to use Ryder, he has been getting a push in his program with Ziggler, granted they weren't clean finishes, its his buddy that's putting him over, they totally forgot about him and injected Ryan into the big tag matches (where is this push all of the sudden coming from for him? I figured it would be to team up with Ryder to kind of recreate the Big O thing but thats not the case), but I wouldn't put a loss to him anywhere near the level of losing to Santino, especially now. I mean he at least looks like a legit wrestler, has a decent looking finisher, and Santino has cooled way down since his feud with Sheamus.

As to the Survivor teams, I think you could easily do two heel teams ADR, Ziggler, Christian, Swagger, Rhodes, seems a much more likely main event team then one with Otunga, which could face off against Rock, Cena, Punk, HHH, Sheamus. Seems like an easy build, but I'd say the heels have to win if only to help elevate them and to further the Cena Rock storyline, as you can't have them work together without incident. Could even have one of them doing a Heel turn, although I doubt that will happen as no one is going to boo the Rock in Miami and it would be stupid to turn Cena before that match.

For the second one, you could do the less serious/joke team of Ace, Nash, Miz and Truth, and whomever you wish perhaps Henry because he has been causing a lot of the ruckus. It would more than likely be awful (although these type of matches are great for protecting bad wrestlers), but I'm willing to put up with anything just to see Ace wrestle again, I'd howl with laughter. What would he use for a finisher? Would he be allowed to use the Ace Cutter, or would he have to invent a new move for Randy Orton to steal. Orton, Air Boom, Morrison, and the last spot to Show, or Ryan. Santino, King or god forbid Ryder could fit in here so you can have a spot where Ace/Nash gets an elimination. I don't know if Randy could let his ego deal with him not being on the main team but eh, dream booking and all that. Besides I'd give the babyfaces the win here to make up for the main event heels winning and no one is going to buy Nash/Ace winning a match so Randy can come out of Survivor Series as the strongest looking face that should appease him right?

[LQBigCountry]

If i had to guess, i would say that at Survivor Series the main event will be:

John Cena, The Rock, C.M. Punk, and Sheamus w/HHH in their corner
vs.
The Miz, R-Truth, Alberto Del Rio, and Kevin Nash w/ John Laryngitis in their corner

Winner's corner man appoints the new Raw G.M.

I could see Sheamus not being on Team H and either ARD or Nash being scratched from Team Ace and this being a 6-man tag. Sheamus does really fit on the team, maybe Hunter will be the fourth man. Just a guess.

For Smackdown i bet they do Mark Henry vs. Randy Orton again.

[vamroc]

I hated that **** eating grin of the John Laurinaitis when he fired JR. Its kinda obious by now to me that he was behind everything. When CM Punk first mentioned that some one didn't want Triple H to run things I thought "it has to be Laurinaitis" and now I'm sure about it.

I think the angle will evolve into Stephanie cheating on HHH with Laurinaitis. Seeing as Stephanie IS the mastermind behind Laurinaitis's rise to power, the one who making HHH's GM stint a living hell, and the person who sent AWESOME TRUTH to the arena. She didn't plan the walkout that was just a happy accident that worked her favor ultimately this angle will end with Stephanie divorcing HHH. It also just occurred to me that the angle may include Stephanie sleeping with The Undertaker learning in the process that he is the ultimate mastermind behind every decision Stephanie is making.

[LQBigCountry]

I think the angle will evolve into Stephanie cheating on HHH with Laurinaitis. Seeing as Stephanie IS the mastermind behind Laurinaitis's rise to power, the one who making HHH's GM stint a living hell, and the person who sent AWESOME TRUTH to the arena. She didn't plan the walkout that was just a happy accident that worked her favor ultimately this angle will end with Stephanie divorcing HHH. It also just occurred to me that the angle may include Stephanie sleeping with The Undertaker learning in the process that he is the ultimate mastermind behind every decision Stephanie is making.

Are you Vince Russo? Do you work for TNA?

[Arsenalroy2k]

but I wouldn't put a loss to him anywhere near the level of losing to Santino, especially now.

See that's the thing, I like Ryder and I do think he's a better wrestler than Santino, but his gimmick right now is just silly enough that he basically filled in for Santino as the show's comic relief while Santino was on the shelf. So it's tough to take the goof win as anything other than humiliating to whatever heel ends up laying down for him.

As to the Survivor teams, I think you could easily do two heel teams ADR, Ziggler, Christian, Swagger, Rhodes, seems a much more likely main event team then one with Otunga, which could face off against Rock, Cena, Punk, HHH, Sheamus. {...} For the second one, you could do the less serious/joke team of Ace, Nash, Miz and Truth, and whomever you wish perhaps Henry because he has been causing a lot of the ruckus.

I'd take ADR and Henry out of the running of participating in a Survivor Series match for the moment since they're (currently) the champs. I think both title holders will be busy defending the straps at that PPV to be joining in those festivities.

[Fredwood]

I'd take ADR and Henry out of the running of participating in a Survivor Series match for the moment since they're (currently) the champs. I think both title holders will be busy defending the straps at that PPV to be joining in those festivities.

Do they need to have title matches on the card? They've pretty much painted themselves into the corner with this storyline, as this is supposedly more important than anything, even the titles. So personally I don't think they need title matches at Survivor Series. From an entertainment standpoint, I'd rather see them in those matches then the 3rd or 4th generic title match between ADR v Punk and Henry v Orton. In addition, I think it would be a better draw for them, as the elimination tags will definitely go on last. They need to go back to booking the championships strong though, but I doubt they'll start doing that at Survivor Series.

[Arsenalroy2k]

Do they need to have title matches on the card?

Depends on the title. I don't think anyone will bat an eyelash if there's no IC/US/Tag/Diva title match on the card. But I imagine whomever is World/WWE champ will be defending it one way or another.

[Fredwood]

Depends on the title. I don't think anyone will bat an eyelash if there's no IC/US/Tag/Diva title match on the card. But I imagine whomever is World/WWE champ will be defending it one way or another.

Probably right, but I still think they could get away without having a title defense on the show. I mean, when the top two storylines at the moment don't involve the title somehow, they should try to at least incorporate the champions into those storylines.

[Thrumble Funk]

Do they need to have title matches on the card?

Well, considering that the US/IC belts are only sporadically defended, I'd argue that they don't much care about the mid-card titles. Which is a shame, IMO.

[zyxba]

For anyone who has wanted to try mafia or just enjoys wrestling games:

Mafia championship wrestling! (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336585)

I'm running a wrestling themed mafia in the next couple weeks. Signups are open, and who amongst you can pass up a chance to be your favorite wrestlers throughout history in a mafia style game of wrestling carnage?!?!?

[Arsenalroy2k]

For anyone who has wanted to try mafia or just enjoys wrestling games:

Mafia championship wrestling! (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/showthread.php?t=336585)

I'm running a wrestling themed mafia in the next couple weeks. Signups are open, and who amongst you can pass up a chance to be your favorite wrestlers throughout history in a mafia style game of wrestling carnage?!?!?

I'll be honest: I have no idea what that mafia game stuff is.

[zyxba]

Mafia is a game of an informed minority vs a uninformed majority broken into two phases. Each player is a character from a theme, And has in game powers to do things to other players during the night phase. During the day phase, people converse and share info to try and get a majority of players to vote to kill one player.

Basically it's arguing, manipulation, detective work and strategy between you and other hcrealms members.

[spike1138]

Basically it's arguing, manipulation, detective work and strategy between you and other hcrealms members.

What makes this different from the General Discussion forum?

I keed, I keed! :grin:

[zyxba]

What makes this different from the General Discussion forum?

I keed, I keed! :grin:

Don't worry, I had the same joke in mind.

The difference being it's only a game, and actions aren't conducted with malice, unlike some general posts...

[mike_houghton]

Oh heck... Ill go for it. Sign me up. I have never tried one of these though so I will suck hardcore.

[vamroc]

Are you Vince Russo? Do you work for TNA?

That jackass WISHES HE WAS ME and I wouldn't waste my time writing numbers on a TNA bathroom stall let alone a script for their HORRIBLE show

[MechaFan]

That jackass WISHES HE WAS ME and I wouldn't waste my time writing numbers on a TNA bathroom stall let alone a script for their HORRIBLE show

Exept that Vince Russo dosen't work as main writer to TNA anymore so you are late with that.

[Fredwood]

That jackass WISHES HE WAS ME and I wouldn't waste my time writing numbers on a TNA bathroom stall let alone a script for their HORRIBLE show

See the show is horrible because he writes for them, its not as if it was horrible before he got there.

[KO Bossy]

See the show is horrible because he writes for them, its not as if it was horrible before he got there.

Talking to a brick wall here. Vamroc refuses to believe TNA was at one time entertaining, and constantly dwells on the negative (either Jeff Jarrett, Vince Russo or Hogan). I'll agree that those guys do hold TNA back, but blatantly refusing to acknowledge the other talent there is ignorant. I think he just doesn't want to like TNA and has made up his mind already before hand.

[Thrumble Funk]

Talking to a brick wall here. Vamroc refuses to believe TNA was at one time entertaining, and constantly dwells on the negative (either Jeff Jarrett, Vince Russo or Hogan). I'll agree that those guys do hold TNA back, but blatantly refusing to acknowledge the other talent there is ignorant. I think he just doesn't want to like TNA and has made up his mind already before hand.

For me, TNA has always had the potential to be entertaining. Great talent? (generally) Check. Yough/drive? Check. Willingness to showcase athleticism? Check.

However, at its best, TNA always looked to me like an indy high-spot crash-fest broadcast on TV. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing, depending on who you have in the ring, but I find the (general) "indy" style to be best viewed live, in a gym/ice rink/small arena, where you can really get drawn into the matches.

On TV, there's a natural disconnect there, I feel, particularly regarding ring psychology. This is where TNA has always seemed to drop the ball for me, in that there usually isn't any. There are/have been very few truly compelling stories that I've wanted to watch unfold. Very little time seems to have been spent on MAKING me want to watch.

TNA, I think, would be best served by a general house cleaning and re-vamp, preferably starting with the writing staff.

[MechaFan]

I think he just doesn't want to like TNA and has made up his mind already before hand.

Thats actually kinda sad. I mean he dosen't even want to knowladge that TNA has had some great matches in past like those matches between Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe when first guy arrived to TNA and later guy challanged him to match to see which one was better submission wrestler.

[zyxba]

Or AJ/Daniels/Joe

So, JR is already back. That's good at least.

[zyxba]

And Mafia Championship Wrestling begins this weekend!

For those who want to play in a forum wrestling themed game, the signup is in my sig. I promise fun and mayhem. Feel free to PM me with any questions.

[MechaFan]

I was suprised by HBK's return and return of the DX last friday at end of Smackdown. I was aware that HBK might not stay away from wrestling and he might some day return to WWE but I didn't expect him to do it now.

[Contingency Plan]

I was suprised by HBK's return and return of the DX last friday at end of Smackdown. I was aware that HBK might not stay away from wrestling and he might some day return to WWE but I didn't expect him to do it now.

I'm fairly certain it is just going to be for a show or two. Especially since they were so close to his hometown.

I wish the WWE would just put the belt on CM Punk and let him run with it. He is, by far and away, the best talent on the roster. Mic and ring work. His promo a week ago with Trips, Cena, and Shameus was downright hilarious. Loved him when he was in ROH, and he has only gotten better.

Speaking of ROH, their weekly show has started in my area. It airs on FOX at Midnight on Sunday nights. It is the perfect cap to a day full of football. The shows, while low budget of course, have been pretty good. Matches have been solid. First week's Main Event was Kings of Wrestling taking on the World's Greatest Tag Team. Outstanding.

[vamroc]

Thats actually kinda sad. I mean he dosen't even want to knowladge that TNA has had some great matches in past like those matches between Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe when first guy arrived to TNA and later guy challanged him to match to see which one was better submission wrestler.

If Jeff Jarrett retired and walked away from the company I'd consider watching but I will not support ANYTHING tied to Jeff Jarrett sorry but THE MAN IS SCUM.

[zyxba]

What did Jeff Jarrett do that has set you so against him out of curiousity?

[Arsenalroy2k]

I was all ready to talk about TNA and the illusion of quality that fandom tries to use to validate the past. But then I saw this little news nugget, since we're talking about TNA stupidity and all... Impact SPOILERS!

James Storm pinned Kurt Angle to win the TNA World title.

That's right, after months of building up Roode by winning the BFG series and most of the major stars, then having him lose at BFG itself, Storm wins with no buildup whatsoever.

Of course, it sounds like a lose/lose/lose situation with any of those three parties as champ at this point, but whatever.

[zyxba]

I was all ready to talk about TNA and the illusion of quality that fandom tries to use to validate the past. But then I saw this little news nugget, since we're talking about TNA stupidity and all... Impact SPOILERS!

James Storm pinned Kurt Angle to win the TNA World title.

That's right, after months of building up Roode by winning the BFG series and most of the major stars, then having him lose at BFG itself, Storm wins with no buildup whatsoever.

Of course, it sounds like a lose/lose/lose situation with any of those three parties as champ at this point, but whatever.

Yeah, I saw that and was like... wtf. On the other hand, this is gonna lead to some quality matches between Roode and Storm in a friendly rivalry type thing that'll probably get ugly. Coincidentally, one of TNA's better feuds they've ever done was that (AJ/Daniels), and Storm Roode should be able to deliver, especially having been partners all this time. I guess at least they'll get the Roode chase, now that he's a main eventer but still. It seems a waste for them to not pull the trigger at BFG. Biggest PPV being topped by the Impact to follow it...

I also found it funny that a number of the things I read were clammoring for Storm to be in Roode's spot, and all of a sudden, boom.

[vamroc]

What did Jeff Jarrett do that has set you so against him out of curiousity?

While I was never a "Double J" fan this is what lead me to have utter contempt for Jarrett.

Jarrett left the WWF in October 1999, right after WWF head writer Vince Russo resigned from the WWF in order to join WCW. Jarrett's contract expired on October 16, 1999, one day before his scheduled match with Chyna at No Mercy. Jarrett wrestled at No Mercy nonetheless, losing the Intercontinental Championship to Chyna. Chyna later alleged that Jarrett and Russo had colluded in order to delay Jarrett's title defense until after Jarrett's contract had expired, and that Jarrett had subsequently extorted WWF Chairman Vince McMahon for $300,000 in order to wrestle without a contract.

[Fredwood]

While I was never a "Double J" fan this is what lead me to have utter contempt for Jarrett.

Jarrett left the WWF in October 1999, right after WWF head writer Vince Russo resigned from the WWF in order to join WCW. Jarrett's contract expired on October 16, 1999, one day before his scheduled match with Chyna at No Mercy. Jarrett wrestled at No Mercy nonetheless, losing the Intercontinental Championship to Chyna. Chyna later alleged that Jarrett and Russo had colluded in order to delay Jarrett's title defense until after Jarrett's contract had expired, and that Jarrett had subsequently extorted WWF Chairman Vince McMahon for $300,000 in order to wrestle without a contract.


That's rather tame by comparison to some other stories out there especially about Vince. The whole part about Russo pushing the change back is all conjecture from Chyna, who isn't exactly the best source. In the end how is it Jarret's fault that Mcmahon didn't know when his contract expired, and how does it make him a horrible person for getting a paycheck from a billionaire? Especially since he literally was not going to go any further in the company, his guy was leaving and Austin refused to work a program with him to elevate him to the main-event level. That's one for the worker, and Vince hates him, not because he was a "weasel" and held him up for a payday (many others have done it to Vince), the reason Vince hates him is because he was never able to get revenge.

Now if you said you hated him because he was a overrated wrestler who got most of his breaks because of his family and had an over-sized ego, then sure, those would be valid points. Getting one over on arguably the most underhanded figure in wrestling history wouldn't be one.

I'm by no means stating that Jarret is a saint, and that he isn't a dick, he more than likely is, but I have a hard time believing or siding with Vince on anything that went on behind the scenes. Besides Jarret made a good heel because you literally wanted someone to kick his ### but he didn't have a lot of X-pac heat, that's hard to do in the smark age.

As far as TNA goes, I've never been a TNA apologist, and was never a fan of WCW. I don't see how I'm validating the past, when the TNA past was good and doesn't need validating. I haven't paid attention to it for a few years, but now that Pritchard and Lagana are the guys in charge of creative, I'm kind of interested to see where it goes. However, since Russo isn't gone, I'm not holding my breath on them being able to turn it around. I hope they do because Vince needs competition to bring his A game.

[KO Bossy]

I've also heard about Jarrett holding up Vince for money. Apparently that's also the reason why, when Vince bought WCW and assumed Jarrett's contract, he made a somewhat big deal about not hiring him again, so that he could embarrass him. I'm not against Jeff, but I do think that his family was the driving force behind his success. Face it, the fans for the most part just didn't really care THAT much about him. They didn't hate him like, say, Roddy Piper and they didn't love him like, say, Hulk Hogan. But he really believed that he was that over with the fans. The fact that he was so out of touch with reality in that respect bothers me.

In regards to James Storm winning the title, TNA is not a PPV company-that much is very evident. Look at who's running the company, after all. They are TV ratings oriented, 100%. So instead of having things pay off at PPVs, like would make sense, they constantly tell the viewer to "tune in to Impact" to see how things turn out. That's partly why they're financial situation isn't that good-buying their PPVs, a major source of revenue, is never worth it because the good stuff happens for free on TV. Bound for Glory was 50 bucks, apparently, and the major conclusion was...where else? Impact, for free. Bischoff, Russo and Hogan are still completely obsessed with somehow competing with the WWE, and its a clearly lost battle. This is no different than Goldberg beating Hogan for the title back in Atlanta in 1998 on Nitro. They sold out the arena in Goldberg's hometown in 3 days, drawing 40 000 people. Had they given it 2-3 weeks and put it on PPV, they could have made some serious cash, but no, they wanted to outdraw Raw for that one night. So is it a surprise things moved forward on Impact rather than the PPV people paid $50 for? Not really. Of course, why would they give it to James Storm and not Bobby Roode? Just more questions...

[Arsenalroy2k]

quality matches between Roode and Storm

Does not compute.

[MechaFan]

Yeah, I saw that and was like... wtf. On the other hand, this is gonna lead to some quality matches between Roode and Storm in a friendly rivalry type thing that'll probably get ugly. Coincidentally, one of TNA's better feuds they've ever done was that (AJ/Daniels), and Storm Roode should be able to deliver, especially having been partners all this time. I guess at least they'll get the Roode chase, now that he's a main eventer but still. It seems a waste for them to not pull the trigger at BFG. Biggest PPV being topped by the Impact to follow it...

I also found it funny that a number of the things I read were clammoring for Storm to be in Roode's spot, and all of a sudden, boom.

Well I'm kinda pleased to that. As fan of Beer Money it dosen't really matter to me which one of them is champion. I think either of them deserves it and in this case its James Storm who will have that title. I like those guys as both tag team and as single wrestlers.

I could not care less what WWE marks say about TNA becouse I enjoy from it and I also watch WWE as well. I have never understood whole idea that if you like from one you can't like from other that some people have when it comes to wrestling or video game consoles or comic book publishers or anything else.

[Arsenalroy2k]

I'd like it to be stated for the record that my criticisms of TNA should not be confused with vamroc's. Having said that...

I don't see how I'm validating the past, when the TNA past was good and doesn't need validating.

But it really wasn't good. People are trying to use the AJ/Daniels/Joe matches to justify the argument that TNA was good. A flawed argument because a small handful of matches do not encompass the entirety of the company. Nor do they make up for all the other train wrecks that were also present at the time (particularly the weekly PPV era). AJ/Daniels/Joe were not wrestling each other 2 hours a week for 52 weeks at a time.

And that sort of rationale has been tried by others (not anyone here specifically, but elsewhere) in different forms; Saying things like "TNA was good because..." and then whether the reason was they were pushing things like Knockouts or the X-Division or so on, those wouldn't hold up either for the same reason: It only covers a small portion of the product at that point. TNA never really manages to have multiple things going for them simultaneously that can carry/validate the entire product, let alone for a significant span of time.

So finding sporadic items that could be considered "bright spots" doesn't make something good. It just means you've dug through a pile of #### and found a kernel of corn or a peanut or something.

[zyxba]

For the most part, I've always enjoyed tna minus the main event scene. I've been watching since 2004, and while it's frequently not good, it's usually at least entertaining.

I used to religiously buy their DVDs, I've slowed on it, but going over their ppvs, there are plenty of good matches over the years.

[LQBigCountry]

I always liked Jeff Jarrett, i thought he was a good worker, and he could cut a good promo. I never begrudged him for holding up McMahon because it isn't like Vince is a saint and hasn't screwed over a wrestler or two in his day. But it should be clarified that Jeff didn't hold him up for a payday, he held him up for back pay from royalties, house show appearances, and PPV payouts. It he would have left the company October 16th and said "no, i'm not working, you're stuck" he either would have been screwed out of that pay that he was owed or he would be waiting months and months to get that money. I don't know how it works that a talent could be screwed out of backpay like that, but other wrestlers have said in the past that they finished up with Vince properly so they wouldn't lose that money.

As for his time in TNA, if you think about it he never had another top heel to do the things he did in the early days at TNA. Now that he has more talent to work with, Jeff isn't in the top of the card like he used to be. It could also be argued that he put himself at the top as a way to say to McMahon and Austin "look what you missed out on, look what i can do!"

Also i have a friend who worked in TNA for a year back in 2007-2008 and he said that Jeff is one of the nicest people there. He said that his door was always open for anyone in the office who wanted to talk and he couldn't say enough good things about Jeff. My friend did say that Dixie is dumb as dirt and lucky to have a job, but a nice lady.

Pertaining to the spoiler, i have been saying that they should go in that direction since 2008 when i first watched TNA. I hope this is a long-term thing.

[vamroc]

Now if you said you hated him because he was a overrated wrestler who got most of his breaks because of his family and had an over-sized ego, then sure, those would be valid points. .


Well those facts are obvious to everyone which is why I didn't mention them.

[zyxba]

I actually enjoyed a lot of Jeff's career too, to be honest. His tag team with Owen hart was one of my favorites. And I've always enjoyed the guitar bit. Beyond that he's had some surprisingly solid matches in TNA and the JJ MMA thing was spectacular.

And despite not being that impressive, he was a draw in Memphis. So people can't say he never drew.

Anyone have feelings on Johnny ace being a performer now that aren't negative out of curiousity?

[KO Bossy]

I'd like it to be stated for the record that my criticisms of TNA should not be confused with vamroc's. Having said that...



But it really wasn't good. People are trying to use the AJ/Daniels/Joe matches to justify the argument that TNA was good. A flawed argument because a small handful of matches do not encompass the entirety of the company. Nor do they make up for all the other train wrecks that were also present at the time (particularly the weekly PPV era). AJ/Daniels/Joe were not wrestling each other 2 hours a week for 52 weeks at a time.

And that sort of rationale has been tried by others (not anyone here specifically, but elsewhere) in different forms; Saying things like "TNA was good because..." and then whether the reason was they were pushing things like Knockouts or the X-Division or so on, those wouldn't hold up either for the same reason: It only covers a small portion of the product at that point. TNA never really manages to have multiple things going for them simultaneously that can carry/validate the entire product, let alone for a significant span of time.

So finding sporadic items that could be considered "bright spots" doesn't make something good. It just means you've dug through a pile of #### and found a kernel of corn or a peanut or something.

So in a nutshell, you're saying that even though TNA has had periods where some things they've been doing have been good, because they're only one part of the product, and the other parts of the product haven't been good, therefore TNA has never been good?

That's pretty flawed logic. If we're to use your theory, then no period in wrestling EVER can be considered good because each one, while having its good stuff, had its share of bad stuff.

You have to judge a company based on individual elements, because if you only ever judge it as a whole, nothing will ever meet your expectations. Samoa Joe/AJ Styles/Christopher Daniels series of matches? Amazing stuff. Samoa Joe vs Kurt Angle? Excellent. Christian as World Champion? Very entertaining. Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff? Utter crap. Voodoo Kin Mafia? Pretty sad. Certain elements are terrible, others are great. To say the entire product was awful because some things were bad is somewhat unfair. Right now, the majority of the product is terrible, completely agree, but there are still a few bright spots, as you said, such as Austin Aries and some of the other talent I mentioned earlier.

[Arsenalroy2k]

So in a nutshell, you're saying that even though TNA has had periods where some things they've been doing have been good, because they're only one part of the product, and the other parts of the product haven't been good, therefore TNA has never been good?

No, actually that's not what I've said at all. I'll sum it up much more briefly: The majority of TNA is/has been bad. This applies to not just the present, but the past as well. Now if the majority of something is bad, then it cannot be qualified as being good. The debatable bright spots and occasionally good match do not outweigh the crap and cannot be used to validate an argument that essentially says "The company is 99.9% ####, but that remaining percentage means it's good".

If we're to use your theory, then no period in wrestling EVER can be considered good because each one, while having its good stuff, had its share of bad stuff.

But we're not talking about periods in wrestling. We're talking the history of a single entity. One that's been around less than a decade and hasn't undergone any notable shifts in tone or cultural context. In nine years, TNA has remained consistent despite changes in who's running the company or what channel they're airing on. Now if we're talking about a company that's been around much longer and has actually changed significantly over time like the WWE or even WCW, that's going to be a much different discussion.

And of course there's going to be bad stuff along with the good. That's common sense. Problem is when the bad outweighs the good (in TNA's case and I'm sure other examples as well).

You have to judge a company based on individual elements, because if you only ever judge it as a whole, nothing will ever meet your expectations.

That's an admirable thought, though there's two flaws with it: First, individual elements add up to a whole. No getting around that. Second, fandom rarely (if ever) behaves how someone thinks they should.

[Fredwood]

The Fed has been garbage for the majority of its existence, and it has a longer track record than TNA. For a time TNA was putting on better overall shows than what the WWE was giving us, and if you think thats not true and it was only because of 3 people then you're just ignorant. They had an exciting Tag Team division, Cruiserweight division, mid-card, hell even the women's division was watchable, and when Jarret wasn't dominating the Main event, there was compelling stuff with the younger guys there too.

I don't see how I'm giving them a pass for the past few years and their early existence because for a year or two (the ones without Russo) they were the better company (with the exception of the business model).

[KO Bossy]

You know, for all the bashing of Russo that we do, I'll give the guy credit-he did come up with some really good stuff back in his late days with the WWF. He, along with Vince, helped to create Austin vs McMahon, the rivalry between Undertaker and Kane, the Rock's rise to superstardom, DX, etc. The edgier and more controversial writing was what helped the Fed eventually win the ratings battle against WCW. The problem was that Vince acted as a filter for Russo, and when he went to WCW to write, no one was there to say "this won't work." Subsequently, he had free range to do what he wanted, and while his good ideas were approved by Vince in the WWF, and the bad ones declined, in WCW, whatever he felt like doing, he did, and most of it was absolutely terrible. Its kinda funny-he helped the WWF win the ratings war by writing great stuff for them, and then going to WCW and sabotaging their writing.

I think a lot of what Russo does is god awful, but I'll be fair by highlighting his accomplishments.

[Arsenalroy2k]

The Fed has been garbage for the majority of its existence, and it has a longer track record than TNA. For a time TNA was putting on better overall shows than what the WWE was giving us

I disagree on that, and I'll be honest; I think the majority of that statement is just lashing out in retaliation to criticism of TNA.

if you think thats not true and it was only because of 3 people then you're just ignorant.

It's not ignorance though. I'm not the one citing those three people as such great performers that they dwarf out all the other flaws the company/show has. Now this isn't a slight against their skills (okay, maybe some areas), it's just that talented people can work for a crappy company and be surrounded by abysmal product. Their work doesn't validate the whole and make it good. And this is a criticism that could be (and has been) lobbed at companies other than TNA.

They had an exciting Tag Team division, Cruiserweight division, mid-card, hell even the women's division was watchable, and when Jarret wasn't dominating the Main event, there was compelling stuff with the younger guys there too.

I'd certainly grant you the women's division, but a lot of those other examples are debatable and the peaks of those divisions perceived successes were never at the same time. As for the compelling stuff with the younger guys, it's tough to believe that when the few genuinely talented individuals the company has had work for them haven't legitimately had anything compelling going on because of the inconsistent haphazard booking. Honestly, if I was to name some younger guys (that aren't AJ, Daniels, Joe or the MCMG), would you be able to cite at least one angle from them that is legitimately compelling from start to finish? If you find me that ignorant, would you be willing to step up and enlighten me as to how that person validates the product?

I think a lot of what Russo does is god awful, but I'll be fair by highlighting his accomplishments.

His strongest point is that he really does try to push younger or underpushed talent. He certainly gets an E for effort in that category at least. The results are by far, atrocious, but there you go.

His biggest flaw is, as it's been described elsewhere, is that he's a rabid dog when it comes to his writing/booking. He needs someone to reign him in, and hold that leash.

[KO Bossy]

It didn't help that when he came into WCW that the creative control of Hogan, Nash and company was colliding with the booking and storylines he wanted. A perfect example of this was at Bash at the Beach 2000. Honestly, I can't lay the whole blame of WCW's demise on Russo, because by the time he got there in October 1999, things were plenty ####ed up already. He just added to the chaos. Was he partly responsible? Of course. Fully? No, there are several others that need to share in the blame there.

[Arsenalroy2k]

It didn't help that when he came into WCW that the creative control of Hogan, Nash and company was colliding with the booking and storylines he wanted. A perfect example of this was at Bash at the Beach 2000. Honestly, I can't lay the whole blame of WCW's demise on Russo, because by the time he got there in October 1999, things were plenty ####ed up already. He just added to the chaos. Was he partly responsible? Of course. Fully? No, there are several others that need to share in the blame there.

Absolutely agreed. Hogan, Nash and mainly Bischoff made the bread for that #### sandwich, Russo and his antics just provided the meat.

God it was horrible. Just reminiscing about that era makes me wish I still had that compilation tape made on the collapse of WCW. That made the Botchamania videos look quaint in comparison.

[KO Bossy]

Absolutely agreed. Hogan, Nash and mainly Bischoff made the bread for that #### sandwich, Russo and his antics just provided the meat.

God it was horrible. Just reminiscing about that era makes me wish I still had that compilation tape made on the collapse of WCW. That made the Botchamania videos look quaint in comparison.

I can probably guess a few matches that were included. And what about angles and gimmicks before, up to and around the time Russo came in?

-David Arquette-the less said about that the better
-West Texas Rednecks: Curt Henning and Barry Windham forced to sing cowboy songs and fight a stable lead by Master P
-3 Count: Backstreet Boys meets wrestling. Somehow Tank Abbot was worked into that angle
-KISS Demon: Tony Schiavone actually said KISS was the hottest band in the world...in 1999
-New Blood vs Millionaire's Club-Just wow...

Although you can go back further than that-what about that travesty of a match between Warrior and Hogan at Halloween Havoc 1998? You know, the same PPV where WCW went over their allotted time limit and the broadcast was cut 2 minutes into the main event, causing WCW to be forced to refund everyone who ordered the PPV? Then there was Kevin Nash unmasking Rey...man those were dark times.

Its kinda funny that a company could give us such a wide array of crap, and yet at one time they were pretty soundly dominant (at least, for the year and a half they beat Raw in the ratings).

[vamroc]

I actually enjoyed a lot of Jeff's career too, to be honest. His tag team with Owen hart was one of my favorites. And I've always enjoyed the guitar bit. Beyond that he's had some surprisingly solid matches in TNA and the JJ MMA thing was spectacular.

And despite not being that impressive, he was a draw in Memphis. So people can't say he never drew.

Anyone have feelings on Johnny ace being a performer now that aren't negative out of curiousity?

Yeah, well I hear Fidel Castro is popular in Cuba but of course he KILLS those that disagree with his policies so that might have something to do with why Fidel has such high approval ratings in his HOME COUNTRY. ;)

[Arsenalroy2k]

-KISS Demon: Tony Schiavone actually said KISS was the hottest band in the world...in 1999

Oddly enough this was the most accurate call Tony made in his entire career.

But if we want to talk bad WCW, the most enraging segment I ever sat through pre-Russo was this one where Hogan and Chuck Zito (who was there for no reason whatsoever) are stalking David Flair as they try to remain inconspicuous in a stretch limo. Even worse was the hokey dialogue as Hogan is trying to ad-lib about Flair. Hogan is not an off-the-cuff master of improvisation.

Then in a related angle, there was Flair's fake heart attack that somehow ended with him in an insane asylum. He promptly broke out and stole a shortbus that was being driven by someone that looked suspiciously like Scott Hall. How did that angle end? It didn't. It just ceased to be.

And I'm trying to remember if this next one was before or after Russo came in, but it was Kanyon going to the family house of a depressed Raven, only for Raven to reveal it was all a ruse to mooch off his family. This was capped off by this douche-chill inducing moment where Raven breaks the fourth wall. Oof.

Ooh! One more: Buzzkill! That was a terrible one. The parody of Road Dogg... why? If you're going to goof on someone, aim higher up the card.

[vamroc]

Ooh! One more: Buzzkill! That was a terrible one. The parody of Road Dogg... why? If you're going to goof on someone, aim higher up the card.

At least Brock Lesnar had the good sense to target the face of WCW with his parody of GOLDBERG (Yup, I said it because that's what Brock's whole WWE carrier amounted too).

[KO Bossy]

If we're gonna talk parodies, we can't forget Oklahoma!

Oh, or what about Seven? Dustin Runnels came out in this terrible costume and just admitted he was a fake load of crap. One of Russo's numerous worked shoots that he was so famous for.

Then there was Russo's strange fixation on pole matches. He even tied Judy Bagwell to a forklift for some unknown reason...

Kronik was another awful Vince Russo creation. And that 70s Guy.

But if you wanna talk truly bad (right up there with stalking David Flair) WCW angles pre-Russo, then all I can say it the Yeti, Robocop and of course, the Shockmaster.




Oddly enough this was the most accurate call Tony made in his entire career.

But if we want to talk bad WCW, the most enraging segment I ever sat through pre-Russo was this one where Hogan and Chuck Zito (who was there for no reason whatsoever) are stalking David Flair as they try to remain inconspicuous in a stretch limo. Even worse was the hokey dialogue as Hogan is trying to ad-lib about Flair. Hogan is not an off-the-cuff master of improvisation.

Then in a related angle, there was Flair's fake heart attack that somehow ended with him in an insane asylum. He promptly broke out and stole a shortbus that was being driven by someone that looked suspiciously like Scott Hall. How did that angle end? It didn't. It just ceased to be.

And I'm trying to remember if this next one was before or after Russo came in, but it was Kanyon going to the family house of a depressed Raven, only for Raven to reveal it was all a ruse to mooch off his family. This was capped off by this douche-chill inducing moment where Raven breaks the fourth wall. Oof.

Ooh! One more: Buzzkill! That was a terrible one. The parody of Road Dogg... why? If you're going to goof on someone, aim higher up the card.

[Contingency Plan]

I think a lot of what Russo does is god awful, but I'll be fair by highlighting his accomplishments.

David Arquette as World Champ, pretty much outweighs anything good he has ever done.

Russo has always been completely full of himself. When he does to something great like helping with Austin/McMahon, he starts believing anything he does is gold. Like Mae Young giving birth to a hand?..........Not one of Mark Henry's greatest moments.

As for TNA, the talent has never been the problem with the company. They have always had the talent to rival WWE. Maybe not mic wise, but in-ring work they are good. Especially the crop they raided from ROH.

The problem with TNA is it's direction. They have no idea who to push and when. AJ should have been pushed a long time ago. Christopher Daniels should have been pushed, but instead they jobbed him or had him as a joke(Curry Man). Yet they force feed us Matt Morgan before he is ready. And then break up Homicide and Hernandez, trying to make us believe they had a shot at singles. When instead they just got lost in the shuffle.

I quit watching quite some time ago. Will never watch it again to be honest. I catch the results and it is always the same crap.

[Contingency Plan]

If we're gonna talk parodies, we can't forget Oklahoma!

Oh, or what about Seven? Dustin Runnels came out in this terrible costume and just admitted he was a fake load of crap. One of Russo's numerous worked shoots that he was so famous for.

Then there was Russo's strange fixation on pole matches. He even tied Judy Bagwell to a forklift for some unknown reason...

Kronik was another awful Vince Russo creation. And that 70s Guy.

But if you wanna talk truly bad (right up there with stalking David Flair) WCW angles pre-Russo, then all I can say it the Yeti, Robocop and of course, the Shockmaster.

I will never forgive Russo for what he did to Mike Awesome. That 70's Guy? Really? Dude was a monster in ECW. Should have left him that way.

[KO Bossy]

David Arquette as World Champ, pretty much outweighs anything good he has ever done.

Russo has always been completely full of himself. When he does to something great like helping with Austin/McMahon, he starts believing anything he does is gold. Like Mae Young giving birth to a hand?..........Not one of Mark Henry's greatest moments.

As for TNA, the talent has never been the problem with the company. They have always had the talent to rival WWE. Maybe not mic wise, but in-ring work they are good. Especially the crop they raided from ROH.

The problem with TNA is it's direction. They have no idea who to push and when. AJ should have been pushed a long time ago. Christopher Daniels should have been pushed, but instead they jobbed him or had him as a joke(Curry Man). Yet they force feed us Matt Morgan before he is ready. And then break up Homicide and Hernandez, trying to make us believe they had a shot at singles. When instead they just got lost in the shuffle.

I quit watching quite some time ago. Will never watch it again to be honest. I catch the results and it is always the same crap.

Well, they're force feeding us Crimson now. And jobbing out Samoa Joe to pretty much everybody. And giving us Hogan vs Sting. And killing all the hype they had around Bobby Roode. And they gave Abyss the X-Division title. And they rehired Jeff Hardy...again.

Yeah, its pretty bad.

Now you've got me thinking of terrible WWF/E angles. Certainly Hornswoggle McMahon and the Boogeyman will be up there, along with Mae Young and Mark Henry. Oh and then there was Mae Young stripping at the 2000 Royal Rumble. And Gillberg. And Katie Vick (God that one was particularly painful). And the Spirit Squad. And Hornswoggle vs DX. Hornswoggle in general. And Rodney Mack. And B-Squared. Damn this is kinda fun.

[zyxba]

I take it you're familiar with Wrestlecrap?

And I liked 3 Count... those matches with the Jung Dragons and such were fun.
It's a very heel gimmick, and amusing.

Best terrible thing about WCW though? Stevie Ray on commentary. He made Booker T look like Art Donovan!

[Arsenalroy2k]

Best terrible thing about WCW though? Stevie Ray on commentary.

I miss Stevie Ray calling people Fruit Booties. That phrase is sorely lacking from today's commentary teams throughout the industry.

And Katie Vick (God that one was particularly painful). And the Spirit Squad. {...} Kronik was another awful Vince Russo creation.

If anyone here has ever heard HHH tell the story of filming the Katie Vick segment, I highly recommend you find it. It's hilarious.

I liked Kronik. And I LOVED the Spirit Squad. If either of them had ever gotten a t-shirt, I would have bought them willingly.

I will never forgive Russo for what he did to Mike Awesome. That 70's Guy? Really?

It was quite arguably the weirdest transition I'd ever seen from a guy portrayed as a monster to comic relief "fat chick thrilla" role.

[Fredwood]

I disagree on that, and I'll be honest; I think the majority of that statement is just lashing out in retaliation to criticism of TNA.


I could give a #### about TNA, and I always watched WWF/E in the Monday Night wars I just don't drink the kool-aid, and outside from the late 80s late 90s and early 2000's, there weren't many good years aside from a few performers (probably less than 3).

You keep going back to your talking point about 3 people, so we'll just move on from your drawn out circular posts.

As far as Russo goes, Foley said it best, he's good with an editorial filter, when he has carte-blance he self-destructs. As far as him creating the Austin-Mcmahon stuff, Austin has never given him credit for it, and Steve seems like the guy who would give credit where its due as he seems like a "straight-shooter". From all the interviews/stories I've heard, he was heavily involved with the undercard, but McMahon basically ran the main event with editorial control over both aspects. He had a heavy influence on the era, but needed a leash.

The most confusing thing about all of this (like a few others have pointed out) is the treatment of Awesome, Bischoff and company paid a #### ton of money to sign him and in his first appearance he gets squashed by Nash, made absolutely no sense. Then as they end up destroying the character, why the heck did they pay him all that money just to job him out to ICP eventually?

[MechaFan]

At least Brock Lesnar had the good sense to target the face of WCW with his parody of GOLDBERG (Yup, I said it because that's what Brock's whole WWE carrier amounted too).

Like poor Goldberg didn't already have enough parody in form of that midget version of him whos name I don't seem to recall. But least Lesnar gave us one memorable moment when he and Big Show coused ring to collaps in that one Smackdown.

[zyxba]

That'd be Gillberg.

[LQBigCountry]

Mike Awesome(may he rest in piece) was another product of Paul Heyman making the most of what he had to work with. Much like Sandman, Shane Douglas, 911, or any other one trick pony in ECW, Paul found one out how to make the most out of what they did well and hide poor wrestling skills behind "hardcore wrestling." As soon as they left the safehouse of ECW and went to WWF or WCW, their lack of wrestling skills came to light and they were quickly shown the door and sent back to ECW.

One of my favorite WCW bad angles was in 1998 when Miss Elizabeth accused Goldberg of stalking her. That was terrible!

[Contingency Plan]

Mike Awesome(may he rest in piece) was another product of Paul Heyman making the most of what he had to work with. Much like Sandman, Shane Douglas, 911, or any other one trick pony in ECW, Paul found one out how to make the most out of what they did well and hide poor wrestling skills behind "hardcore wrestling." As soon as they left the safehouse of ECW and went to WWF or WCW, their lack of wrestling skills came to light and they were quickly shown the door and sent back to ECW.

One of my favorite WCW bad angles was in 1998 when Miss Elizabeth accused Goldberg of stalking her. That was terrible!

Hell, you could say the same thing for pretty much everyone that left ECW. Taz, Tommy Dreamer, Raven, Jerry Lynn....the list goes on and on. The Dudleys have been successful, but that is about it.

The Mike Awesome vs Masato Tanaka wars were great. Sure they were mainly spots, but the spots were unreal at times.

Everyone bags on the WWE not being as good as it was in the past. How can it be? Austin, Rock, Foley, Undertaker, DX....it is going to be extremely hard to ever live up to that. What they are doing now is just fine. Senseless at times, sure. But if you watch the WWE, it's not just kool-aid that keeps you glued. CM Punk is by far and away the best thing to come around since the Attitude era. The guy is money on the mic and gets good matches out of most. Plus there is plenty of good ring workers like Ziggler, Swagger, Bourne, Morrison, etc.

If you watch it for what it is today, it's a fairly decent watch. But if you compare it to the past(which is unfair to the workers now), you will never enjoy it.

[MechaFan]

One of my favorite WCW bad angles was in 1998 when Miss Elizabeth accused Goldberg of stalking her. That was terrible!

Kinda sounds like sexual harrasment accusations that Melina had against Batista when he and Rey Mysterio were tag team and feuding with MNM. That was when Mark Henry was brought into WWE as Melina's bodyguard.

[LQBigCountry]

Hell, you could say the same thing for pretty much everyone that left ECW. Taz, Tommy Dreamer, Raven, Jerry Lynn....the list goes on and on. The Dudleys have been successful, but that is about it.



Not really, Taz left ECW and stayed with WWE for 9 years, Raven is a very good worker and worked with WCW for years until he left on his terms, then went to WWE for 2-3 years, and worked in TNA for a few years. Dreamer was another one that went to WWE after ECW shut down and he had a ten year career there, even working in the front office during the back end of his time there. RVD has had moderate success, it would have been nice to see where he could have gone in WWE if he didn't get arrested with Sabu back in 2006.

But then you have Sandman who has done *nothing* outside of ECW. He worked for WCW for a year before being released because he couldn't work a straight match. Hell, even when WWECW came around he couldn't cut it there and was let go after a little more than a year. But don't get me wrong, what he did well in ECW, he did very well. I think his Enter Sandman entrance is one of the best entrances in the business. The atmosphere when he came into the arena was amazing.

Ditto Sabu. Shane Douglas was chased out of WWF in 1995 because The Klique said he wasn't a good worker.

Ric Flair said it best in his book "The term hardcore became a crutch for guys who couldn't do ####-all in the ring."

[Arsenalroy2k]

Okay, found the Raven/Kanyon bit. Brace yourselves.
HSC2inxFn5Y

[MechaFan]

RVD has had moderate success, it would have been nice to see where he could have gone in WWE if he didn't get arrested with Sabu back in 2006.


He has done rather well in TNA. He even was heavy weight champion in there in one point. Its a shame that he had another feud with Jerry Lynn becouse those are getting old. He already did that enough (least from my opinion) in pre-WWE ECW.

[KO Bossy]

Okay, found the Raven/Kanyon bit. Brace yourselves.
HSC2inxFn5Y

Listen at 2:45. You can actually hear Raven's career die a little.

Its so sad that they took one of WCW's best heel characters and put him through...that.

[LQBigCountry]

Weren't they setting up something with Raven and Roddy Piper at one point? I remember seeing some vignette where they were in Raven's house or something and they found a picture of Piper and them saying something about him being Raven's mentor or idol or something.

So much of WCW is hard to remember because nothing ever had payoffs to make the angle memorable!

[Contingency Plan]

Not really, Taz left ECW and stayed with WWE for 9 years, Raven is a very good worker and worked with WCW for years until he left on his terms, then went to WWE for 2-3 years, and worked in TNA for a few years. Dreamer was another one that went to WWE after ECW shut down and he had a ten year career there, even working in the front office during the back end of his time there. RVD has had moderate success, it would have been nice to see where he could have gone in WWE if he didn't get arrested with Sabu back in 2006.

But then you have Sandman who has done *nothing* outside of ECW. He worked for WCW for a year before being released because he couldn't work a straight match. Hell, even when WWECW came around he couldn't cut it there and was let go after a little more than a year. But don't get me wrong, what he did well in ECW, he did very well. I think his Enter Sandman entrance is one of the best entrances in the business. The atmosphere when he came into the arena was amazing.

Ditto Sabu. Shane Douglas was chased out of WWF in 1995 because The Klique said he wasn't a good worker.

Ric Flair said it best in his book "The term hardcore became a crutch for guys who couldn't do ####-all in the ring."

I'm not saying they didn't have a career. They just did nothing that was noteworthy. Taz ended up being a color commentator, due to injuries. But even before he retired, he hadn't had much success. Dreamer was basically a jobber. All he did was carry the ECW name as far as it could be carried. Raven had a little success, but ended up as gutter trash.

[KO Bossy]

Well, as long as we're sharing...

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Watch this second clip and tell me this doesn't look EXACTLY like TNA does today. From the total mess in the ring, the small crowd attendance, the crowd obviously not giving a ####, no one understands what's going on, etc.

8HY_intJPQ4

[Arsenalroy2k]

He has done rather well in TNA. He even was heavy weight champion in there in one point.

That's not a big selling point. TNA's main title is like the equivalent of a B-title in the other companies. Like the US, IC or so on. As for doing well, I'd debate that. Given the uproar over how he got beaten down by Sting within his first few minutes of the company, it's no surprise that Hogan/Bischoff/Russo didn't know how to handle him.

Weren't they setting up something with Raven and Roddy Piper at one point? I remember seeing some vignette where they were in Raven's house or something and they found a picture of Piper and them saying something about him being Raven's mentor or idol or something.

No, you're right. I do remember something like that in the same angle as the one from the clip I posted. Sandman and Chastity also made their WCW debut in the same angle, going back to your other post. Only thing I can figure is Piper declined to take part and things went nowhere even quicker.

Watch this second clip and tell me this doesn't look EXACTLY like TNA does today. From the total mess in the ring, the small crowd attendance, the crowd obviously not giving a ####, no one understands what's going on, etc.

It's missing one thing: The audience trying to be like an ECW crowd with random things being chanted. Add that in and THEN it's a TNA show.

But let's keep sharing. Here's the Hogan/Zito clip. Footage of these two rambling messes actually made it to air.
Vxo-BETPeAc