HCRealms.com Dragon*Con Invitational Championship Tournament Progression

[sparks4289]

Thought I'd update everyone on the HCRealms.com Dragon*Con Invitational!!!


First round of tournaments went great tonight.

Top 6 winners in each event win a seat at the Invitational Tournament for Sunday!!

Event 1
Congrats to the following:
1st : Killamostdeadly (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=36189)
2nd : blackprince (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=33471)
3rd : ViperWingLeade (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=24549)
4th : Markjames (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=53812)
5th : Sly (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=3365)
6th: Minxmaster (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=52138)

Special Shoutout to Oreoofl (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=69347) for winning fellowship in the first event!!!

Event 2
1st : spawn10 (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=3502)
2nd : Shoogbear (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=52704)
3rd : Foilboil (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=72121)
4th : cramcompany (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=23832)
5th : Howard Brock (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=20743)
6th : Eastb11 (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=64817)

Congratulations to Chris for winning fellowship!

Event 3
1st : Phillip Ely
2nd : kmac4 (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=53589)
3rd : Xargon (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=28968)
4th : Oreoofl (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=69347)
5th : Clark Gomez
6th : Gowenbob (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=9618)

Congratulations to Kmac4 (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=9618) for winning fellowship!!

Event 4

Event 5


Pictures coming soon!

[sparks4289]

Todays updates are in!!

[RockMan]

Some great games today. I believed an Animal theme team could ko cosmic spidey. I can't wait to have time for a full update with builds.

[captainamerica1987]

Too bad my father and brother only played in a battle royal with Tim Hawkins(I believe). My dad would have blew chunks anyways.

[sparks4289]

Some great games today. I believed an Animal theme team could ko cosmic spidey. I can't wait to have time for a full update with builds.

Animals vs Cosmic Spidey has been my favorite match of the con so far. That was just a great game.

[Uniquist]

I heard cramcompany won Dragoncon!

[cramcompany]

I heard cramcompany won Dragoncon!


"I did, I did win Dragon Con." - Tweety Bird Voice


Seriously though. Some of the best people were there, Patrick, Billy and Howard gave me some amazing matches! I was lucky and proud to be a part of it and of course very lucky with some games. I beat a lot of people on some dice rolls and I'm grateful to the dice gods.

Thanks everyone,
Scott
Cramcompany

[shoogbear63]

Cram, how was the Stan Lee meet-n-greet?

[Xargon]

I had a blast again this year, even if I was playing in a semi-confused state Saturday, big thanks again to rockman and all his crew for running these things!

[cramcompany]

Cram, how was the Stan Lee meet-n-greet?

It was Epic! I asked him a bunch of questions and we had a lot of time to really talk. Pretty amazing. Best 2 hours ever.. winning dragon con and meeting stand lee in the same 2 hour block!

Whoot!

[cramcompany]

QUICK TOP 4 TEAMS

Nightron just won Dragon Con as well. It is very powerful. Metron was played by the top 4 people.

Winner
Metron
Nurse
Crawler
Gem

Second
Metron
Johnny Quick x2
Gem

Third
Same as second

Forth (I think he came in forth)
Metron
Thing
Gem

I'll be happy to see Metron Go, but I must thank him for the help.
- Cramcompany

[RockMan]

Congrats to the top four but also props to Xargon for taking WL Flash, Zoom, and Nurse to the limit. One more fun tournament tomorrow and then some sleep. We should have a full report by the end of the week. Thanks to everyone who came out to play and thanks to the great judges who make me look good.

[EnergyShield]

I heard cramcompany won Dragoncon!

What did he win?:)

[spawn10]

Thanks to Charlie (Rockman) and his excellent staff. You guys give new meaning to the term "southern hospitality." Billy and I had so much fun at Dragoncon, especially the clix gaming area. So many great people, it was really nice to talk about the game with everybody. It really moves me to see the amount of passion and dedication that the Atlanta crew displayed for the game, from excellent judging, to the best idea ever: the quarter table(!), to the tournament being run so smoothly, whenever you guys run an event like this anywhere, you can be sure that we will be there.

Congrats to Scott. He truly is one of the best players in this game, and an amazing person. For such a high-level tournament, the atmosphere when we played was pretty casual (much like the Worlds Finals), and what a good game it was. Scott, I fully expect you and your 4 Points Gaming group to attend our $1k in November out here in Cali.

[Terman8er]

Scott, cramcompany, won (iirc):

Spectre
GSX LE set
A set of all of the recent objects (White Lantern, Gem, Key, Shield, Bucket, Foom finger)
Grid Reality Park Map
A Grid Reality map set (I think it was 5 of thier most popular ones)
A vinyl (thanks to Esigns.com) Dragon*Con exclusive map (DaeRave designed)
One of the new "HeroClix: It's like chess with superpowers" T Shirts

Fellowship (Chris of the white paper, not sure of this handle) got:

Spectre
Cap LE set
Stardust
Grid Reality Park Map
A Grid Reality map set (I think it was 5 of thier most popular ones)
A vinyl (thanks to Esigns.com) Dragon*Con exclusive map (DaeRave designed)
One of the new "HeroClix: It's like chess with superpowers" T Shirts

[EnergyShield]

Some sweet prizes.

[shoogbear63]

I just wanted to say that I had an absolutely blast in my first large scale Heroclix tourney. Absolutely everyone was great to talk to. The experience has definately inspired me to start traveling a bit more to other Cons and start playing on a competitive level. I learned a ton playing against foilboll and talking with cram. I especially want to thank the judges and staff, they did a great job accomodating everyone, regardless of skill level. Wizkids is a bit foolish overlooking this event. I've already starting making plans for next year's Dragoncon. Huge thanks to everyone involved for an awesome weekend.

[Norym]

I could only make it for Sunday and Monday, but I had a blast.

Thanks to everyone who helped make it possible. And the DragonCon Map is amazing looking. Glad I got one!



And a Battle Royal with IC and Icons was interesting after all these years.


EDIT : I was there.

I wore a blue T-Shirt on Sunday with the X-Men emblem on the left chest.


On Monday I wore my Red Lantern shirt.

[oreoofl]

I would like to start off by THANKING everyone that took the time to make my son and I welcome.

Now I would like to either start "I was There" thread or just have people reply to this sticky, so I can try and keep track of all the people we had a chance to meet.

So let me start.

I was There.

[Rurouni KJS]

I was there, as part of the judging staff (Black Madrox). And if the good Lord allows, I'll be there for years to come. I've grown to really heart DragonCon.


QUICK TOP 4 TEAMS

Nightron just won Dragon Con as well. It is very powerful. Metron was played by the top 4 people.

Winner
Metron
Nurse
Crawler
Gem

Second
Metron
Johnny Quick x2
Gem

Third
Same as second

Forth (I think he came in forth)
Metron
Thing
Gem

I'll be happy to see Metron Go, but I must thank him for the help.
- CramcompanyYeah. Hard to believe there was a time when people thought Metron was only good, not great.

I think the other Metron+Johnny Quicks team was using the All-Star Squad ATA instead of the Gem.

Thanks to Charlie (Rockman) and his excellent staff. You guys give new meaning to the term "southern hospitality." I just wanted to say that I had an absolutely blast in my first large scale Heroclix tourney. Absolutely everyone was great to talk to.I would like to start off by THANKING everyone that took the time to make my son and I welcome.I believe I speak for the rest of the staff in saying the pleasure was all ours. Glad you enjoyed it!

[shoogbear63]

Also, Metron + Thing + Gem was actually Metron + Thing + Scorpio Key (I wanted the potential for two extra range on Metron for the matchups against other Metron teams).

[foilboll]

Event 3
1st : Phillip Ely
2nd : kmac4 (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=53589)
3rd : Xargon (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=28968)
4th : Oreoofl (http://www.hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=69347)
5th : Clark Gomez
6th : Gowenbob (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=9618)

Congratulations to Kmac4 (http://hcrealms.com/forum/member.php?u=9618) for winning fellowship!!


This was the Golden event, and because the format is SOOOO important to the members of HCRealms I wanted to toss in a clarification just in case some of the lists don't get posted. Some of the guys that already qualified in an earlier event (like myself and Shoogbear) also played in the later events (cus what the heck, who doesn't want to play more heroclix?) and just agreed to pass down their invites if they happened to Top 6 again.

Here's my 1st place list for 300 pt. Broken Age:

Larfleeze
*Protected
*Alias
*Armor Piercing
Edward Nigma
7xLian Harper pog
Structural Integrity Field
Force Field Generator
*Armor Wars
*Ordinary Day
*Power Dampening Field


FUN FACT #1: In 3 rounds I lost a total of 7 pts (Lian Harpers).

FUN FACT #2: In the last round I faced Supernova Thanos with Rookie Lockjaw. IIRC, The Fleeze only rolled 1 legitimate attack on Thanos, the rest of his damage came 1 pt at a time thru orange constructs.

FUN FACT #3: I never once had to use Alias or Protected. Hmm, more room for pogs!


EPIPHANY #1: WOW, feats are awesome! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!

EPIPHANY #2: OMG, feats are ludicrously overpowered! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!


CONCLUSION: Golden Age tournaments suck.


-Billy Z!

[foilboll]

I was there, as part of the judging staff...

It's already been said, but I'll say it again... The judging staff was awesome. A really great bunch of guys that love this game. Thanks, dudes.

[shoogbear63]

Here's my 1st place list for 300 pt. Broken Age:


I've gotta say, when I first saw the team I was surprised to see a Larfleeze team show up in Golden and didn't think much of it again (because I was playing in other matches and didn't get a chance to watch your games) until later that night... man, that was an excellent (and creative) team.

Something else of note is that probably 80% of the teams in Golden were Modern age legal teams using a couple of feats (I played two folks who didn't use feats or BFCs and were completely Modern Legal).

[Rurouni KJS]

I've gotta say, when I first saw the team I was surprised to see a Larfleeze team show up in Golden and didn't think much of it again (because I was playing in other matches and didn't get a chance to watch your games) until later that night... man, that was an excellent (and creative) team.

Yeah. When I first saw it, I was impressed with its potential, thinking, "Man, that team's mean." But as I saw it later down the line, I was surprised at just HOW good it was — no one could deliver anything approaching a crippling blow. It was like LAMP on radioactive steriods. There was a little luck involved — Energy Explosion or Pulse Wave would've wreaked a fair amount of havoc on Billy's "A" strategy, had any of his opponents had it to use. But there's no build on strat that's utterly foolproof...except maybe SIF. (Which is why that's gone now.)

[foilboll]

Yeah. When I first saw it, I was impressed with its potential, thinking, "Man, that team's mean." But as I saw it later down the line, I was surprised at just HOW good it was — no one could deliver anything approaching a crippling blow. It was like LAMP on radioactive steriods. There was a little luck involved — Energy Explosion or Pulse Wave would've wreaked a fair amount of havoc on Billy's "A" strategy, had any of his opponents had it to use. But there's no build on strat that's utterly foolproof...except maybe SIF. (Which is why that's one now.)

Yeah, EE or PW would definitely wreck the Lian meat shields which are mainly used to tie up once the opposing characters get close, fodder for Nigma's mastermind, to block los to Nigma or Fleeze, to surround Fleeze to prevent a Nightcrawler yoink, etc... but since the constructs are objects and not characters, and therefore immune to EE and PW, that strat will do nothing to stop the main source of the team's damage. And The Fleeze has phasing so it's still very hard to catch him. Meanwhile, Nigma eats his tokens and the constructs will keep chasing you forcing you to either push to destroy them, or push to run away from them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It takes a lot of practice to place your characters correctly, but once you figure it out it becomes very frustrating for your opponent.

I don't recommend this team if you play at a venue that doesn't appreciate auto-damage teams like LAMP. You will not be liked. Someone might even kick you in the balls.

[Rurouni KJS]

Yeah, EE or PW would definitely wreck the Lian meat shields which are mainly used to tie up once the opposing characters get close, fodder for Nigma's mastermind, to block los to Nigma or Fleeze, to surround Fleeze to prevent a Nightcrawler yoink, etc... but since the constructs are objects and not characters, and therefore immune to EE and PW, that strat will do nothing to stop the main source of the team's damage. And The Fleeze has phasing so it's still very hard to catch him. Meanwhile, Nigma eats his tokens and the constructs will keep chasing you forcing you to either push to destroy them, or push to run away from them. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It takes a lot of practice to place your characters correctly, but once you figure it out it becomes very frustrating for your opponent.

I don't recommend this team if you play at a venue that doesn't appreciate auto-damage teams like LAMP. You will not be liked. Someone might even kick you in the balls.Yeah, for real. I had to check myself not to rush to judgement: "Is this guy actually a d-bag, or just a really good team builder?" :laugh: Happily, it was only the latter and not the former (or both, as I've encountered on occasion in the past).

Some people whine about Protected, others kvetch about Fortitude, and everyone SHOULD I vehemently detest In Contact With Oracle. But for my money, Armor Piercing is my second-most-disliked feat in Golden Age.

[cramcompany]

Scott, cramcompany, won (iirc):

Spectre
GSX LE set
A set of all of the recent objects (White Lantern, Gem, Key, Shield, Bucket, Foom finger)
Grid Reality Park Map
A Grid Reality map set (I think it was 5 of thier most popular ones)
A vinyl (thanks to Esigns.com) Dragon*Con exclusive map (DaeRave designed)
One of the new "HeroClix: It's like chess with superpowers" T Shirts

Fellowship (Chris of the white paper, not sure of this handle) got:

Spectre
Cap LE set
Stardust
Grid Reality Park Map
A Grid Reality map set (I think it was 5 of thier most popular ones)
A vinyl (thanks to Esigns.com) Dragon*Con exclusive map (DaeRave designed)
One of the new "HeroClix: It's like chess with superpowers" T Shirts

Thank you for the wonderful prizes! :)

[cramcompany]

I just wanted to say that I had an absolutely blast in my first large scale Heroclix tourney. Absolutely everyone was great to talk to. The experience has definately inspired me to start traveling a bit more to other Cons and start playing on a competitive level. I learned a ton playing against foilboll and talking with cram. I especially want to thank the judges and staff, they did a great job accomodating everyone, regardless of skill level. Wizkids is a bit foolish overlooking this event. I've already starting making plans for next year's Dragoncon. Huge thanks to everyone involved for an awesome weekend.

Where's my like button. :laugh:

[cramcompany]

This was the Golden event, and because the format is SOOOO important to the members of HCRealms I wanted to toss in a clarification just in case some of the lists don't get posted. Some of the guys that already qualified in an earlier event (like myself and Shoogbear) also played in the later events (cus what the heck, who doesn't want to play more heroclix?) and just agreed to pass down their invites if they happened to Top 6 again.

Here's my 1st place list for 300 pt. Broken Age:

Larfleeze
*Protected
*Alias
*Armor Piercing
Edward Nigma
7xLian Harper pog
Structural Integrity Field
Force Field Generator
*Armor Wars
*Ordinary Day
*Power Dampening Field


FUN FACT #1: In 3 rounds I lost a total of 7 pts (Lian Harpers).

FUN FACT #2: In the last round I faced Supernova Thanos with Rookie Lockjaw. IIRC, The Fleeze only rolled 1 legitimate attack on Thanos, the rest of his damage came 1 pt at a time thru orange constructs.

FUN FACT #3: I never once had to use Alias or Protected. Hmm, more room for pogs!


EPIPHANY #1: WOW, feats are awesome! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!

EPIPHANY #2: OMG, feats are ludicrously overpowered! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!


CONCLUSION: Golden Age tournaments suck.


-Billy Z!

I was nice meeting and Playing with you man!

[foilboll]

I was nice meeting and Playing with you man!

Same, man! Hope you and your crew can make it to Patrick/Spawn10's 1K in November.

[Xargon]

I would like to start off by THANKING everyone that took the time to make my son and I welcome.

Now I would like to either start "I was There" thread or just have people reply to this sticky, so I can try and keep track of all the people we had a chance to meet.

So let me start.

I was There.

Might should also try to either describe what you look like or what teams you played.

I was the guy who played Cosmic-Spiderman and Dr. Manhattan in the 600 golden, Thanos and Lockjaw in the golden and White Lantern Flash, zoom and Night nurse in the final.

[necrodog]

i was there, at least some of the time. I played an Animal theme team for the 600 Modern Split-universe, and one of the many X-Force teams in the 400 Modern Theme/ATA Required event. Either my animal team was poorly built or I played it poorly (I suspect the latter.)

it was great, as it always is, to see everyone again and spend some time enjoying the good fellowship among folk with similar interests. I'm sorry I didn't meet you, Scott, but maybe another time.

[superman1134]

I was there.

I was the guy who played mystics 600 modern on Saturday and Lamp post Batman, Nightcrawler, and 3 Lela Cheney's for the 300 golden on Saturday. Played Rohjaz, Cable, and Kid Zoom in the finals.

The whole event was great and everyone, especially the judges, were friendly and helpful and I am looking forward to next year. Thanks for the great experience.

[Tombstone Frank]

I was there...

I am Chris of the White Paper. I had an absolute blast in playing in the games for the Con. I got into the Invitational by virtue of people dropping or not showing, and I was amazed at the teams that were there. There was serious thought put into the teams and I just want to say it was a great time to play.

I started with a 600pt Animal team in event 2 (and got Fellowship), then played my Spy theme for the 50/50 game. I had a well tested team for the Invitational (Stryfe, Sabretooth, Talia), but as anyone who played against me can attest, my dice were trying to kill me.

In the end, I ended the weekend with a total of 24 crit misses, 2 Crit Hits, 3 successful Super Sense rolls, and a grand total of 560 points. So it was a losing effort, but it was still great.

I would like to give a big Thanks to all the guys running the event, and to let you know how much I REALLY love the Spectre. It was something I wanted for years (I am a huge JSA guy) and never got. The Vinyl map is AWESOME! I want to thank all the guys I talked to for the advice (throwing away my dice aside), and hope to give you guys my points again next year.

Big Shout Outs to the following, for talking shop and Hanging out:

ViperWingLeade, Shoogbear63, Howard Brock, Oreoofl and Son, RockMan, Terman8er, styx (Enjoy the Map), Rurouni KJS (A true honor to finally meet and play!), and all the guys whose handle I have yet to figure out.

And I will be back next year to defend my place (18th in the Invitational), and my Honor (as Fellowship Winner). So I will keep up with the stuff here, and see you guys next year.

[oreoofl]

I had the Capt America/Falcon/Iron Fist team and found it very useful and a lot of fun to play.

[Xargon]

I was there.

I was the guy who played mystics 600 modern on Saturday and Lamp post Batman, Nightcrawler, and 3 Lela Cheney's for the 300 golden on Saturday. Played Rohjaz, Cable, and Kid Zoom in the finals.

The whole event was great and everyone, especially the judges, were friendly and helpful and I am looking forward to next year. Thanks for the great experience.

Thought you played a 600 point Thunderbolt team that venom crit killed my cosmic spider-man :p granted it was tbolted to mystics

[Terman8er]

Well, I was there. Yeah I know...weird huh? I was that foolish cosplaying judge that kept showing up in odd outfits. :)

It was great to see you all and to put real names and faces to HC Realms handles!

And a HUGE shout-out goes to Typhoon and his T-Shirt donating madness! w00t!

[superman1134]

You are correct sir. It was a thunderbolts team with alternate team ability mystics. I was just wasnt thinking when i wrote it all out. I liked your finals team best and the buildings map we played on. (Got to find one of those) Hope to play against you next year. I had fun.

[Terman8er]

FYI I recorded the final two matches.

foilboll vs shoogbear63

and for the championship:

foilboll vs cramcompany

Once I get them up on Youtube I will post the links.

[Maraud]

I was there and was laughing b/c people were using feats incorrectly and nothing was said by anyone.
1 guy had Shellhead on a figure with :d-indomitable:
then another guy had ICWO on only 1 figure.

[Terman8er]

I was there and was laughing b/c people were using feats incorrectly and nothing was said by anyone.
1 guy had Shellhead on a figure with :d-indomitable:
then another guy had ICWO on only 1 figure.

Not sure which event this occurred in but I am not aware of any such shenanigans.

[Maraud]

Not sure which event this occurred in but I am not aware of any such shenanigans.

I believe it was on Saturday not sure what time though it was Event 3 i know that much.

[Rurouni KJS]

I was there and was laughing b/c people were using feats incorrectly and nothing was said by anyone.
1 guy had Shellhead on a figure with :d-indomitable:
then another guy had ICWO on only 1 figure.

Not sure which event this occurred in but I am not aware of any such shenanigans.

Me either. But to be frank, I was feeling a bit overwhelmed by the whole experience, so maybe we missed it. I *definitely* would have flexed my judge muscle on those errors, had I noticed.

I wish you'd spoken up. Playing the game correctly is important.

[Maraud]

Me either. But to be frank, I was feeling a bit overwhelmed by the whole experience, so maybe we missed it. I *definitely* would have flexed my judge muscle on those errors, had I noticed.

I wish you'd spoken up. Playing the game correctly is important.

Yeah well i was there as a Spectator and since my friend was playing i left it alone.
Had my friend not been in the tournament then i would have said something, but I did not want people to think i was getting them DQ'ed or what ever would have happened to help my friend.

If you guys ever do need another judge there to help run things let me know I'll be glad to help.

[sparks4289]

I was there and was laughing b/c people were using feats incorrectly and nothing was said by anyone.
1 guy had Shellhead on a figure with :d-indomitable:
then another guy had ICWO on only 1 figure.

I've been going over all the tournament sheets filling out an excel spreadsheet with some of the data.

I just wanted to say 2 things about this, based on nothing more than the tournament forms themselves.

There was no one who had shellhead listed anywhere on their team list

But to point this out - shellheads pre-reqs are impervious, invulnerability, or toughness, the errata for shellhead says it can't be used on figures with the :g-colossal: symbol, so a :d-indomitable: figure should be able to use it just fine so long as they have invuln, imperv, or toughness.

The guy playing ICWO had it assigned to 2 figures on his tournament form. Maybe you just saw it after one was KO'd

[sparks4289]

This was the Golden event, and because the format is SOOOO important to the members of HCRealms I wanted to toss in a clarification just in case some of the lists don't get posted. Some of the guys that already qualified in an earlier event (like myself and Shoogbear) also played in the later events (cus what the heck, who doesn't want to play more heroclix?) and just agreed to pass down their invites if they happened to Top 6 again.


Sorry about not making this clearer foilboll, my apologies.

I'm currently entering placings/wins separately into a spreadsheet with wins/losses/points for the entire weekend.

I'll be posting all the results for both tournament placements and invitational seatings as soon as the spreadsheets done, with clear results as to which is which.

[ViperWingLeade]

I was there. I really had a great time playing. This is one of the best "Big Events" I played in. ((and I was there for the first Mage Knight and Mechwarrior worlds ugh...))

The rounds went smoothly, and I played against some of the best people I have met playing.

My team ((coming in 3rd on Friday)) was:

Vet Icons Supes x2
Bats TA Supes from CD
Icons Braniac
Rip Hunter from Crisis
Rookie Infinity Challenge Jean Grey
Rookie X-plosion Destiny ((yeah for Pit Crew!))
Oracle from Legacy
Nova Blast on Brainiac
ICwO on all three Supes, Brainiac and Rip Hunter.

Played against a Onsaught team in the first round, sneaked out a win because of the sac rule on the dial, and a very sporting opponant.
Second Round: Lost to a team I spent two years losing to in the local meta, on the Armor Wars map. LOVED THE GAME!
Third Game: Played Nemesis team. Brainiac finally got the Nova Blast to work right, and that crippled the team. The Legion of Supermen cleaned up the rest.

As for the Invitational: well I am short on modern, just getting back in, but tried my best with Ms. Skrull-vel, Skrull Yellow Jacket, and Mass Master all from Secret Invation. I went 3-2 and the two teams that beat me both had Frozen Cap, and Shield Throwing Cap. Ms. Skrull just could not hit those 18s...

GREAT time! best time I have ever had at a big "for all the bananas" tournament!

PS When the pics go up I realize I am in tac gear in both pics!:->

[Maraud]

But to point this out - shellheads pre-reqs are impervious, invulnerability, or toughness, the errata for shellhead says it can't be used on figures with the :g-colossal: symbol, so a :d-indomitable: figure should be able to use it just fine so long as they have invuln, imperv, or toughness.

The guy playing ICWO had it assigned to 2 figures on his tournament form. Maybe you just saw it after one was KO'd

You are correct he can be assigned it and use it but he would get no bonus from it since shellhead only gives a bonus to :d-normal: so if you have :d-indomitable: you do not get the bonus.

its the same thing if you have a feat that gives -1:a-fist: +2:g-starburst:
and you had :a-duo: and :g-starburst: you would get the bonus of damage but not the negative of the attack.
This has been the rulings since Armor Wars with Homing Device and Giants.

I may have missed the other character with the ICWO but i was sitting b/w these two tables at the time and he only announced one figure with ICWO, so he may have had a second figure with it IDK.

[sparks4289]

You are correct he can be assigned it and use it but he would get no bonus from it since shellhead only gives a bonus to :d-normal: so if you have :d-indomitable: you do not get the bonus.

its the same thing if you have a feat that gives -1:a-fist: +2:g-starburst:
and you had :a-duo: and :g-starburst: you would get the bonus of damage but not the negative of the attack.
This has been the rulings since Armor Wars with Homing Device and Giants.

I may have missed the other character with the ICWO but i was sitting b/w these two tables at the time and he only announced one figure with ICWO, so he may have had a second figure with it IDK.

All this just reminds me really how much I really hate feats...........

[shoogbear63]

The only team I played that used ICWO had two characters using it, Jason Blood and Maelstrom if I remember correctly.

[foilboll]

All this just reminds me really how much I really hate feats...........

Haha, agreed. Wizkids should officially support Silver Age.

[Terman8er]

Yeah, the good thing about records (and keeping them) is we can go back and verify information. :)

[blackprince]

I was there and I had a great time even though I only played in two tournaments: the 1200 point Golden Age on Friday and the HCRealms Invitational Championship on Sunday.

On Friday I went undefeated and came in second with an X-Men theme team. I didn't have the damage output of the winning team so I didn't come close to his KO total, although I also only had one figure KO'd the entire tournament (the 110-point Cyclops from GSX), despite facing some heavy hitters, including a Camouflaged Onslaught (who picked up the Gem) on an Armor theme team, a Cosmic team that included Cosmic Spider-Man (it wasn't actually a theme team as he had one too few figures, but it did make the Immortal Contempt feat on my Phoenix worthless :p), and a Justice League team that included Vet Icons Superman (it was his Wonder Woman and Ray that managed to kill Cyclops).

Almost all of my damage output came from a heavily-feated Phoenix (GSX Super Rare), and the GSX Professor X (Warbounded to M&M Labcoat Beast with the Scientist keyword; Beast also had Brilliant Tactician). My team included Nightcrawler (but he was largely ineffective as he seldom hit), Psylocke (both GSX and Vet Xplosion), WOS Wolverine, GSX Cyclops, Armor and Cyclops/Phoenix (primarily for the special enhancement boost to Professor X, who was typically Psychic Blasting every turn at 12 ATK, 5 DMG).

On Sunday I played a Spy theme team with Ms. Skrullvel, Talia (Bats/Supes) and Pawn 502. The team did very well against the teams I played that didn't have Metron. Unfortunately, I played 3 teams that had Metron (who I could never manage to hit). :confused::p:laugh:

Many thanks to the judges for doing a great job and to all the players I met and played against. It was a blast.

P.S. I was the guy dressed in Steampunk outfits Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

[cramcompany]

I had the Capt America/Falcon/Iron Fist team and found it very useful and a lot of fun to play.

That was a great team!

[Rurouni KJS]

Haha, agreed. Wizkids should officially support Silver Age.Big time agreement!!! It's lots of fun to play all your figures together. Not always as much fun to face humongous mounds of smelly cheese tons of feats in order to play all your figures together. Looking at some of these build reports, I'm kinda glad now that I wasn't able to make it to play my 1200-point Diana's Wardrobe team (http://heroclixin.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/new-comic-day-battles-dianas-wardrobe-part-1/)...they woulda got violated.

I had the Capt America/Falcon/Iron Fist team and found it very useful and a lot of fun to play.
That was a great team!I know, right? On the surface it just looks plain outclassed by the top of the meta out there. But darn if it didn't compete anyway, coming super-close to beating Metron/Nightcrawler in the Golden Age round!

There was no one who had shellhead listed anywhere on their team list
...
The guy playing ICWO had it assigned to 2 figures on his tournament form. Maybe you just saw it after one was KO'd
Yeah, the good thing about records (and keeping them) is we can go back and verify information. :)
Phew. I'd have hated it if we'd screwed that up.

[Komixfrk75]

QUICK TOP 4 TEAMS

Nightron just won Dragon Con as well. It is very powerful. Metron was played by the top 4 people.

Winner
Metron
Nurse
Crawler
Gem

Second
Metron
Johnny Quick x2
Gem

Third
Same as second

Forth (I think he came in forth)
Metron
Thing
Gem

I'll be happy to see Metron Go, but I must thank him for the help.
- Cramcompany





Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

[shoogbear63]

Honestly, if I thought I could come up with a team... any team, that can consistently handle the majority of the popular Metron builds I could have gladly played it. If I'm not mistaken, there was no instance of a team without Metron beating a team with Metron. Until Metron is out of Modern or Superman brings the next power piece (previews indicate that this could very well be the case), it's how thing are going to go when people are being competitive. That being said, Dragoncon was way too fun of a time for this thread to become a Metron bashing thread.

[foilboll]

Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

If you had any idea what you were talking about, your comment would warrant a response. As it stands, I've already written too much.

[spawn10]

Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

I was wondering when a comment like this would be made here, lol. It's happened at every thread that about a competitive event. What you don't understand is that there were plenty of great and original teams, but it just could not stand up to Metron/x.

[cramcompany]

Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

After play testing with the best in the world and working very hard to figure out what beats metron and krakoa i will leave you with two statements.

1. What will always win on Krakoa and reliably beat Metron/Nightcrawler that has prob, perplex, support, outwit and TK cause you need that to stop them from running?

2. Don't have the players, hate the game. We don't all want to run Metron, I am creative... I run a theater company for a living. Metron is so much better to not run him is sucide. That's not anybody in the top 4's fault. We play competitively. If we played chess, we wouldn't not play with the queen, because it's been done before.

I built 10 Klaw and 10 M.O.D.O.K. teams and could get nothing to work. Any ideas would be welcome.

Curiously yours,
Scott

[foilboll]

Any ideas would be welcome.


Great suggestion! I look forward to seeing all of Komicfreak's Meta-Destroying teams.

[spawn10]

Probably won't answer the question directly. Will probably say something like "blah blah (competitive player bashing), blah blah blah, I can beat it, blah blah blah, the game isn't about winning, it's about comic-themey-fun teams, blah blah blah."

Or, he won't answer at all, which would do us all a favor.

[RockMan]

Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

There were plenty of other teams played, they were being talked about in this thread before you trolled along. There were Magneto teams, white lantern teams, spy teams, and many others. A combination of excellent play and efficient team building led to Metron owning the top four spots.

Are you suggesting that you can build a better team without using Metron? Or are you suggesting that all figures that win a high level event should be banned from play?

Everyone here would love to read some constructive thoughts on the subject. If there is one thing that serious players enjoy more than playing the game, it is talking about strategy.

[RockMan]

Actually the search button found his idea. It was in a thread about the worlds.

Couple years back I was planning on using this to be honest..:it's a solider team :



Captain America 72
Captain America 72
Parademon Grunt 33
Parademon Grunt 33
Captain Metropolis 40
Warlord 50

300



You have a ton of options and alot pieces that could tie up a team with only 3 figures on it....

[Terman8er]

Seriously.......People can't come up with anything better...But the same garbage that was played before...

You are, of course, welcome to come up with a 300 modern team of your own to rule the roost.

Granted I spoke with all the high end players at D*C and they all agreed that they wish they didn't "have" to play Metron.

It's just at this level, and point value, he is the man currently.

[cramcompany]

Actually the search button found his idea. It was in a thread about the worlds.

HAHAHAHA. That would be great. All you have to do is always roll 8's and 9's and you'll have hit metron for one.

[Rurouni KJS]

HAHAHAHA. That would be great. All you have to do is always roll 8's and 9's and you'll have hit metron for one.

...unless Warlord can get in range, which is damn unlikely with the low taxi speed of the Grunts. That team just isn't mobile enough to catch ol' Chairface.

[Maraud]

I think a Mongul and Kid Zoom team can deal with them pretty well, with some type of support figure.

[foilboll]

I think a Mongul and Kid Zoom team can deal with them pretty well, with some type of support figure.

The big problem with Mongul is that the Metron player can just choose not to use phasing. GG.

[Xargon]

The big problem with Mongul is that the Metron player can just choose not to use phasing. GG.

I think the idea is so he can't just runaway :p still not sure about using him though. I'm thinking perhaps nor-var with his high attack + pulsewave/pentrating shot would do better. But then you run into the problem with metron outwitting it.

[Norym]

Yes, but if at 195 points he is not attacking then he is not pulling his weight in a 300 point game.

[foilboll]

Yes, but if at 195 points he is not attacking then he is not pulling his weight in a 300 point game.

But see, that's why Metron is so good. He does so many other awesome things for your team, he doesn't need to attack.

[Norym]

But see, that's why Metron is so good. He does so many other awesome things for your team, he doesn't need to attack.

Not at 300 points. With only 105 points left over he has to be giving other figs damage.

[RockMan]

Among other points made, Mongul can't push and Metron can, so the Metron player can control the tempo of the game even without using phasing.

[Ignatz_Mouse]

HAHAHAHA. That would be great. All you have to do is always roll 8's and 9's and you'll have hit metron for one.

2 actually-- Captain Metropolis has Enhance.

That team isn't as bad as you might think. 2 x HoT Caps will get multiple shots in at Metron, and will have a theme reroll to help.

I prefer the version with 2x Howling Commandos with stealth and Perplex, though.

[foilboll]

Not at 300 points. With only 105 points left over he has to be giving other figs damage.

Yeah, that's just not true. In most games, Metron is a glorified taxi... the most insane support taxi ever, but still just a taxi.

I'm not trying to troll you, but if you think Metron is using more of his actions to attack rather than reposition/retreat, then you are either playing him wrong or you haven't playtested him enough.



EDIT: This might be asking a lot, but could you guys maybe playtest these teams/matchups before you post? It's easier to have a relevant metagame discussion if everyone is on the same page. This would also make it a lot easier to identify the trolls and maybe cut down on the "HERP DERP play something new DERP DERP!" posts.

[ViperWingLeade]

I was wondering when a comment like this would be made here, lol. It's happened at every thread that about a competitive event. What you don't understand is that there were plenty of great and original teams, but it just could not stand up to Metron/x.

Well I think my figs had the way to deal with it, I just never played it. One of the issues with tournaments is the way parings work is a quick to kill army will always do better than a low burn that squeeks points.

I mean quite frankly I wound up 7th in the invitational because I got skunked one round. had I taken out a single figure from my opponant's force in the second round and still lost I would have been 4th on points.

On friday I was 2nd on points but third because I had a 2-1 record. The swiss format can be as much responsible for who wins what as anything else.

Someone could have brought a good team, and had a tough match where they won on points but didn't score the full 300, and that makes a difference when there isn't someone with "The record"

This isn't sour grapes, just the observation of a long time tournament player.

[foilboll]

Well I think my figs had the way to deal with it, I just never played it. One of the issues with tournaments is the way parings work is a quick to kill army will always do better than a low burn that squeeks points.

I mean quite frankly I wound up 7th in the invitational because I got skunked one round. had I taken out a single figure from my opponant's force in the second round and still lost I would have been 4th on points.

On friday I was 2nd on points but third because I had a 2-1 record. The swiss format can be as much responsible for who wins what as anything else.

Someone could have brought a good team, and had a tough match where they won on points but didn't score the full 300, and that makes a difference when there isn't someone with "The record"

This isn't sour grapes, just the observation of a long time tournament player.

Not sure if we played against each other in any of the events (I don't recognize your realms name), what team were you playing in the Invitational? And what team/teams did you play in the other events?

EDIT: I'm so lazy. Found your post:

As for the Invitational: well I am short on modern, just getting back in, but tried my best with Ms. Skrull-vel, Skrull Yellow Jacket, and Mass Master all from Secret Invation. I went 3-2 and the two teams that beat me both had Frozen Cap, and Shield Throwing Cap. Ms. Skrull just could not hit those 18s...

The problem we've always found with trying to use Yellowjacket as a counter to Metron is that it makes your team weak against the rest of the field. It's true that he does wonders against Power Cosmic, but a 1st round paring against Martial Artist could easily land you in the losers bracket, where you will be hard pressed to find a Metron to get paired against.

[ViperWingLeade]

Not sure if we played against each other in any of the events (I don't recognize your realms name), what team were you playing in the Invitational? And what team/teams did you play in the other events?

EDIT: I'm so lazy. Found your post:

Ran Ms. Skrullvel, SkrullowJacket, and Mass Master for the Invitational.
Ran "Legion of Supermen" on friday
Vet I Supesx2
CD Bats TA Supes
Icons Brianiac w/Nova Blast
Rip Hunter
R Jean Grey from Infinity
X-Plosion rookie destiny
Oracle and ICwO on everyone but jean and destiny

[foilboll]

Wish we'd been able to make the Friday tournament, but the plane tickets were too expensive. Would have loved to play in the 1200 pt Broken Age.

[necrodog]

The Swiss-style system WizKids favors (and has been using for 10+years) is IMO the fairest way to manage pairings. After a random 1st round you're paired by win-loss and then by points, so you're consistently paired against someone whose performance thus far in that event most closely matches your own. Unless you're going to argue that points should be more important than actual wins, what better or fairer system would you suggest?

There is a bias towards "fast" teams but it's not because of Swiss, it's because of the need for time-limited matches and the somewhat arbitrary 50 minute mark. There are certainly builds that might be devastating over a longer time or in "last man standing" that fair poorly if stopped at less than an hour of play, but in a formal setting there's a mandate to get to "done" in a specific amount of time. And to get a reasonably accurate result in a reasonable amount of time, 3 rounds of an hour or less is pretty much the only way to go. it's not as if we don't all go in knowing the restrictions, so if you bring a slow-to-function team you've handicapped yourself, haven't you?

A last point, and one mentioned already. The top teams aren't Metron-based because no one can think of anything else. The top teams are (currently) Metron-based because other arguably more creative builds weren't as successful: none of the other builds are balanced enough to get to the top. Comments about "same old cheese" expose a lack of objectivity in how you're looking at the results. Metron will move to Golden and some new combo or combos will dominate the highest levels of competitive play next year. It's just how it works.

Lastly

[lashelton1990]

just as an observation, i noticed that the person who commented that the finalist where unoriginal because of metron was from the sun tzu clan. do all of sun tzu clan members think that way?

[Komixfrk75]

I actually playtested that team several times on the tank map.....It's has alot of potential....And I usually never lost a Capt at all....Originally that team had Thunderer of Qward on it.....Now Cram I'm not knocking your team building skills...It's pretty much becoming monkey see monkey do......It's just shows a lack of skill when everyone plays the same thing...Honestly i think that as soon as team one those figures shouldn't be used again in tourney...But thats just me

[Komixfrk75]

just as an observation, i noticed that the person who commented that the finalist where unoriginal because of metron was from the sun tzu clan. do all of sun tzu clan members think that way?

No we don't I actually haven't been in there in awhile.....

[tyroclix]

I actually playtested that team several times on the tank map.....It's has alot of potential....And I usually never lost a Capt at all....Originally that team had Thunderer of Qward on it.....Now Cram I'm not knocking your team building skills...It's pretty much becoming monkey see monkey do......It's just shows a lack of skill when everyone plays the same thing...

I think the problem comes from counter-building.

I think the Thingtron player went in with a plan of maximizing his chances for success.

Massu showed up with his plan of using the dice against you.

Massu wins. Players comment / discuss these teams. Almost half his team gets retired.

Seeing the strengths of Metron and gaining these new pieces, people discuss what will be played. Bencrawler, Bullseye + Thunderbolts, etc and people begin to think in terms of countering those figures.

When you boil it down there isn't a direct counter to Metron other than Metron. So players decide to counterbuild the support - hence Kid Zoom.

I know a few years back the dominant figure in tournaments was Ultimate Thor / Amazo / Ultimate Iron Man / Green Lantern tanks. When I had to build a team for a top tier tournament, I went with a team that could counter those type of teams.

Back then you had feats to mix up a team. Now, in Modern Age, with feats preattached and called Traits / SP's there is a greater lack of diversity.

Metron is hard to counter with anyone other than Metron. Until a team comes together that is fairly dice proof and can deal penetrating damage reliably to Metron, you aren't going to see anything new in Modern Age until he is retired to Golden Age Only or until they change the build requirements / rules.

Honestly i think that as soon as team one those figures shouldn't be used again in tourney...But thats just me

I think that would be a great idea.

As a Judge I like to challenge my players. WizKids has not shown interest in that regard for the tournaments they run. Maybe with finally getting some new blood in regards to the RA we might see something new. Maybe it will take a deeper change.

Another idea would be Shock the Turtle in effect after 20 or 30 minutes. The most distasteful part of several Metron wins (and other figures in my opinion) is the constant running away to kill the clock. Metron is GREAT at running away making him "top tier" under those rules. This was what made V Icons Superman so good, too. He could KO something from 10 away and run for the rest of the game.

Add in an ever shrinking ring of damage after 30 minutes forcing Metron to fight to the end and you'd see how mortal he really is. Would also help against Bencrawler and in bigger games CSM, too.

Until then you can't blame those players who are trying to counterbuild for Metron using the pieces that do it best most consistently.

[tyroclix]

This was the Golden event, and because the format is SOOOO important to the members of HCRealms I wanted to toss in a clarification just in case some of the lists don't get posted. Some of the guys that already qualified in an earlier event (like myself and Shoogbear) also played in the later events (cus what the heck, who doesn't want to play more heroclix?) and just agreed to pass down their invites if they happened to Top 6 again.

Here's my 1st place list for 300 pt. Broken Age:

Larfleeze
*Protected
*Alias
*Armor Piercing
Edward Nigma
7xLian Harper pog
Structural Integrity Field
Force Field Generator
*Armor Wars
*Ordinary Day
*Power Dampening Field


FUN FACT #1: In 3 rounds I lost a total of 7 pts (Lian Harpers).

FUN FACT #2: In the last round I faced Supernova Thanos with Rookie Lockjaw. IIRC, The Fleeze only rolled 1 legitimate attack on Thanos, the rest of his damage came 1 pt at a time thru orange constructs.

FUN FACT #3: I never once had to use Alias or Protected. Hmm, more room for pogs!


EPIPHANY #1: WOW, feats are awesome! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!

EPIPHANY #2: OMG, feats are ludicrously overpowered! They turn mediocre figures like Larfleeze into unbeatable poison powerhouses!!!


CONCLUSION: Golden Age tournaments suck.


-Billy Z!

I take your success in a completely different way!

1) Pogs suck and have always sucked. Take away your pogs and your team won't be as dominating.

2) The fact you won with Larfleeze shows how great feats are. They make figures that have 0 chance of competing competitive. (which I guess is an actual agreement).

While Armor Piercing helped lead to your victory, Metron's SP Mobius Chair is a big part of his reason for winning his games and why the top 4 had him in 3 spots:

MOBIUS CHAIR: Metron can use Outwit and Probability Control. Once per turn, Metron can use one of the following powers: Leadership, Perplex, or Support.

Both Feats and Special Powers / traits bend / break the rules that figures without them must follow.

With feats, I can choose who can get that special effect. With SP's the WK design team picks who gets the effect.

And while there are feats that are very useful / broken: Protected, Auto_Regen, Armor Piercing, the same can be said for Mobius Chair, Spidey Sense, Teleportation Evacuation, Uni-Vision, etc.

One can rage against Golden Age for making many figures borken or one can rage against Modern Age for having certain figures being borken.

The fact it took feats to finally defeat Metron speaks volumes on which age is truly 'broken' (at least in 300) in my opinion.

[Norym]

When is the first post with the rest of the results going to be updated?

[ViperWingLeade]

The Swiss-style system WizKids favors (and has been using for 10+years) is IMO the fairest way to manage pairings. After a random 1st round you're paired by win-loss and then by points, so you're consistently paired against someone whose performance thus far in that event most closely matches your own. Unless you're going to argue that points should be more important than actual wins, what better or fairer system would you suggest?

There is a bias towards "fast" teams but it's not because of Swiss, it's because of the need for time-limited matches and the somewhat arbitrary 50 minute mark. There are certainly builds that might be devastating over a longer time or in "last man standing" that fair poorly if stopped at less than an hour of play, but in a formal setting there's a mandate to get to "done" in a specific amount of time. And to get a reasonably accurate result in a reasonable amount of time, 3 rounds of an hour or less is pretty much the only way to go. it's not as if we don't all go in knowing the restrictions, so if you bring a slow-to-function team you've handicapped yourself, haven't you?

A last point, and one mentioned already. The top teams aren't Metron-based because no one can think of anything else. The top teams are (currently) Metron-based because other arguably more creative builds weren't as successful: none of the other builds are balanced enough to get to the top. Comments about "same old cheese" expose a lack of objectivity in how you're looking at the results. Metron will move to Golden and some new combo or combos will dominate the highest levels of competitive play next year. It's just how it works.

Lastly

Trust me, I have been "in the system" for Wizkids since day one.

As for the points system, well let's just say we had people in our area that got so good at Mechwarrior that they could tell you how many points and what VCs they would win by. The could purposefully cut things close in order to face weaker opponants ((theoretically)) in subsequent rounds.

Privateer Press does wins and points and timed turns and timed round, but they do something wizkids doesn't do, strength of schedual. So if I go 2-1 in a three round tourney, as does someone else, and the only person who beat me is the person who won the tourney...well that ranks me higher than the other 2-1 who DIDN'T face him or her. Look no tournament system is perfect, and like I said it wasn't sour grapes, just people asked WHY the top four were Metron Teams.

As someone who could have affected ((and did affect)) the outcome of the tourney on Sunday, the Ms. Skullvell team, if I could have hit an 8 one of three times on a die roll would have changed the outcomes of 4-6...if I could have hit 2 eights in the tourney it could have changed the outcome of 1-6. I get skunked in the 2nd round ((because I couldn't hit an eight on three dies rolls and statistically I should have hit at least one)) I come in 7th. But the point spread between me at 7th and the person who came in 4th was within 100 points. Since I finished 3-2, with 966 points, and the fourth place player, if I remember correctly was 3-2 with 1048 points, and the fifth place player had 1044 points. The Sixith place player had something on the order of 980 points. So the matches were close.

What I am saying is not that Metron teams aren't good in the meta...but we also have a random factor in this game of 2d6. Statisically Metron's 12 att should hit an 18 def twice as many times as my 10 att on ms. skrullvel, but I have seen games where that is not the case.

as for Metron being dominating, well he is under 200 points and gives you all the "Pit Crew"powers. As long as you have a decent attacker at 105 points or less, why wouldn't you play them? Espeically since the theory of "Dedicated Support pieces" went out the Window as soon as cards were introduced.

[cramcompany]

I think a Mongul and Kid Zoom team can deal with them pretty well, with some type of support figure.

If you're playing mongul and zoom why not play metron zoom!

[cramcompany]

Yeah, that's just not true. In most games, Metron is a glorified taxi... the most insane support taxi ever, but still just a taxi.

I'm not trying to troll you, but if you think Metron is using more of his actions to attack rather than reposition/retreat, then you are either playing him wrong or you haven't playtested him enough.



EDIT: This might be asking a lot, but could you guys maybe playtest these teams/matchups before you post? It's easier to have a relevant metagame discussion if everyone is on the same page. This would also make it a lot easier to identify the trolls and maybe cut down on the "HERP DERP play something new DERP DERP!" posts.

That last part would be amazing! :)

[cramcompany]

I actually playtested that team several times on the tank map.....It's has alot of potential....And I usually never lost a Capt at all....Originally that team had Thunderer of Qward on it.....Now Cram I'm not knocking your team building skills...It's pretty much becoming monkey see monkey do......It's just shows a lack of skill when everyone plays the same thing...Honestly i think that as soon as team one those figures shouldn't be used again in tourney...But thats just me

That would be pretty interesting retiring figures because they won. :) Hmm..

I didn't do a lot of team building skill on this one... errr... maybe I should say I didn't play the team that I used skill to build ;) Massu or any of the 4 point gamers can tell you.. they had to convince me this was the best team... sadly it really is.

The hard thing is finding a team not just good on one map, but all maps. Cap teams lose to metron on prison 100% of the time. I'll play it out for you.
I slowly come up. Nightcrawler pings away. Grabs or kills or hurts a figure. You run at me. 1 of your figures days. Any one of them. If you didn't kill nightcrawler during your turn... which is nearly impossible to. I can run the entire game. That team can do that on most maps with walls or hindering. If you damage nightcrawler at all and don't kill him in the same turn. I run and heal.

You will kill my nurse... no doubt.

3 major tournaments and Metron/Nightcrawler/Nurse won all three. It's not a coincidence.

Thanks,
Scott

[cramcompany]

I think the problem comes from counter-building.

I think the Thingtron player went in with a plan of maximizing his chances for success.

Massu showed up with his plan of using the dice against you.

Massu wins. Players comment / discuss these teams. Almost half his team gets retired.

Seeing the strengths of Metron and gaining these new pieces, people discuss what will be played. Bencrawler, Bullseye + Thunderbolts, etc and people begin to think in terms of countering those figures.

When you boil it down there isn't a direct counter to Metron other than Metron. So players decide to counterbuild the support - hence Kid Zoom.

I know a few years back the dominant figure in tournaments was Ultimate Thor / Amazo / Ultimate Iron Man / Green Lantern tanks. When I had to build a team for a top tier tournament, I went with a team that could counter those type of teams.

Back then you had feats to mix up a team. Now, in Modern Age, with feats preattached and called Traits / SP's there is a greater lack of diversity.

Metron is hard to counter with anyone other than Metron. Until a team comes together that is fairly dice proof and can deal penetrating damage reliably to Metron, you aren't going to see anything new in Modern Age until he is retired to Golden Age Only or until they change the build requirements / rules.



I think that would be a great idea.

As a Judge I like to challenge my players. WizKids has not shown interest in that regard for the tournaments they run. Maybe with finally getting some new blood in regards to the RA we might see something new. Maybe it will take a deeper change.

Another idea would be Shock the Turtle in effect after 20 or 30 minutes. The most distasteful part of several Metron wins (and other figures in my opinion) is the constant running away to kill the clock. Metron is GREAT at running away making him "top tier" under those rules. This was what made V Icons Superman so good, too. He could KO something from 10 away and run for the rest of the game.

Add in an ever shrinking ring of damage after 30 minutes forcing Metron to fight to the end and you'd see how mortal he really is. Would also help against Bencrawler and in bigger games CSM, too.

Until then you can't blame those players who are trying to counterbuild for Metron using the pieces that do it best most consistently.

I could not agree more.

[foilboll]

1) Pogs suck and have always sucked. Take away your pogs and your team won't be as dominating.




The pogs are barely relevant. Nigma and AP run the team.

[cramcompany]

The pogs are barely relevant. Nigma and AP run the team.

That team is broken like Black Lotus is broken in Magic.

[spawn10]

I think the comment about lack of skill from komixfrk is naive and disrespectful. I hope you guys are friends, Scott, because if he doesn't know you, or even played against you, I don't see how this comment can even be made.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. We just play by the rules written, not the rules that are unwritten.

[Komixfrk75]

I think the comment about lack of skill from komixfrk is naive and disrespectful. I hope you guys are friends, Scott, because if he doesn't know you, or even played against you, I don't see how this comment can even be made.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. We just play by the rules written, not the rules that are unwritten.

First off that comment wasn't directed toward him it was directed toward the lack of team building skills everyone seems to show when they play in the Worlds tourney....Note the comment monkey see monkey do....All I'm saying is it get kinda of boring seeing the same thing win at each Worlds..There is no originality to it whatsoever.

[Maraud]

First off that comment wasn't directed toward him it was directed toward the lack of team building skills everyone seems to show when they play in the Worlds tourney....Note the comment monkey see monkey do....All I'm saying is it get kinda of boring seeing the same thing win at each Worlds..There is no originality to it whatsoever.

I agree but the whole point of worlds is to WIN, if there is only 1 Viable way to win then people are going to do it.

There may be teams that can beat it but then you have to look to see if that team will be able to beat other teams that are not what you are attempting to take down.

[ViperWingLeade]

First off that comment wasn't directed toward him it was directed toward the lack of team building skills everyone seems to show when they play in the Worlds tourney....Note the comment monkey see monkey do....All I'm saying is it get kinda of boring seeing the same thing win at each Worlds..There is no originality to it whatsoever.

well in magic it became know as "NetDecking" or pulling winning lists off of websites.

However as I stated before Metron does so much, I am not sure why you WOULDN'T use him if you have the piece. I know I was in the Dealer's room and troll and toad were selling the Nightcrawler, and I seriously considered buying one after I qualified just so I could run it.

The piece wins. There are reasons the power pieces are the power pieces. ability to point cost is a big one. It is one of the reasons the arch enemy mechanic failed so badly in tounament play, because one piece is more efficent points wise than the AE. Why would you play a pice paying for a premium. LIke Anti-Superman team ((espiecally with bonehead moves like making Braniac Anti-Supes AND GIVING HIM OUTWIT AND MAKING HIM THE HIGHEST COSTED ANTI_SUPES IN THE GAME)) You ae paying a premium for an ability that's hard to use, and that ability takes away from stats on the dial ((compare vet icons supes 251 points to Unique Icons Braniac for 251, or Lex from the same set for 212 and tell me they are close))

as for imagination...well there are things that had the ability to go the distance, but it is going to be other figs people complain abaout like Ms. Skrullvell. People complain about pieces for a reason, KC Supes, Ultimate Thor from Ulitmates, Vet Icons Supes... and the list goes on, but they complain because the piece and the powers win consistantly. And they win because of the limitations of the game, and the theory behind it. a single based small fig can only ever have 11 clicx of damage, because 12 is always KO. and old figs were very glass jawed, 3 or 4 clix in they went to poop, hence KC superman, and Ulitmates Thor being so good. They are heavy hitters that don't go to complete crap mid dial.

[Xargon]

The pogs are barely relevant. Nigma and AP run the team.

Pretty sure the pogs were rather relevant in taking thanos down :p . Not saying it wasn't a good or unique team I was rather surprised by it.

[Terman8er]

Pretty sure the pogs were rather relevant in taking thanos down :p . Not saying it wasn't a good or unique team I was rather surprised by it.

Don't confuse "pogs" (1 point Lian) with Orange Constructs.

[foilboll]

Yeah, to be clear, when I refer to pogs I'm talking about the Lians.

[Norym]

When is the first post with the rest of the results going to be updated?




When is the first post with the rest of the results going to be updated?

[sparks4289]

When is the first post with the rest of the results going to be updated?

I'm trying to get to it, I've got a newborn at home and hes taking up most of my time right this minute.

[thanosstar]

First off that comment wasn't directed toward him it was directed toward the lack of team building skills everyone seems to show when they play in the Worlds tourney....Note the comment monkey see monkey do....All I'm saying is it get kinda of boring seeing the same thing win at each Worlds..There is no originality to it whatsoever.

agree with you man

[thanosstar]

That would be pretty interesting retiring figures because they won. :) Hmm..

I didn't do a lot of team building skill on this one... errr... maybe I should say I didn't play the team that I used skill to build ;) Massu or any of the 4 point gamers can tell you.. they had to convince me this was the best team... sadly it really is.

The hard thing is finding a team not just good on one map, but all maps. Cap teams lose to metron on prison 100% of the time. I'll play it out for you.
I slowly come up. Nightcrawler pings away. Grabs or kills or hurts a figure. You run at me. 1 of your figures days. Any one of them. If you didn't kill nightcrawler during your turn... which is nearly impossible to. I can run the entire game. That team can do that on most maps with walls or hindering. If you damage nightcrawler at all and don't kill him in the same turn. I run and heal.

You will kill my nurse... no doubt.

3 major tournaments and Metron/Nightcrawler/Nurse won all three. It's not a coincidence.

Thanks,
Scott

i still think running is not a valid tactic. at worlds or big events i think they should do a shock the turtle format or something to prevent this. ive seen loads of games won just because one guy goes and destroys a lantern or pog or small point fig then runs the entire rest of the game

[ViperWingLeade]

i still think running is not a valid tactic. at worlds or big events i think they should do a shock the turtle format or something to prevent this. ive seen loads of games won just because one guy goes and destroys a lantern or pog or small point fig then runs the entire rest of the game

Well here's the issue I have run into as well. I know the game well, and then there are people who stall or don;t know their clix. That is frustrating.


It's why privateer implmented a play clock. run out of time, and you are done. the turn moves to your opponant.

[thanosstar]

Well here's the issue I have run into as well. I know the game well, and then there are people who stall or don;t know their clix. That is frustrating.


It's why privateer implmented a play clock. run out of time, and you are done. the turn moves to your opponant.

now that i could get behind. however...you still have the running. like i said the guys that destroy a lantrn and just run the whole game

[Xargon]

Don't confuse "pogs" (1 point Lian) with Orange Constructs.

I don't, the harpers work well as master mind fodder and as cheap line of fire blockers and tie up pieces, although I'm sure foilbal probably didn't need them in half his battles they definitely helped him in my game against him.

[cramcompany]

I think the comment about lack of skill from komixfrk is naive and disrespectful. I hope you guys are friends, Scott, because if he doesn't know you, or even played against you, I don't see how this comment can even be made.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. We just play by the rules written, not the rules that are unwritten.

No, I don't think I know him.

[cramcompany]

First off that comment wasn't directed toward him it was directed toward the lack of team building skills everyone seems to show when they play in the Worlds tourney....Note the comment monkey see monkey do....All I'm saying is it get kinda of boring seeing the same thing win at each Worlds..There is no originality to it whatsoever.

I traditionnally have some pretty creative team. I admit this was not one of them.

However the first win I played
The orginal Iron Fist and Jeanne-Marie LE
My second Win I played a Poison Team with Jeanne-Marie (because she was my favorite peice.) Nobody plays her man.

I made top for in 2008 with Bronze Tiger/Ghost Widow Warbounded together.

When feats were retired I went on a HUGE rant about it narrowing the field and limiting creativity.

When they get rid of Battlefield conditions it means that figures have to be silver bullets for each other.

This is NEW Heroclix. There is a best figure and there is NOTHING to do about it.

Want to know my worlds 2012 team. It'll be Nightcrawler AND...

Nightcrawler is the best figure. Nothing is better. Even IF Kid Zoom is being played, Nightcrawler is the best figure even if he doesn't have HSS. Plus Zoom is a silver bullet that costs more points then the problem. So you might as well just run the problem.

Magic the Gathering has a sideboard for a reason. it's smart.

Heroclix had feats to make characters better and diversify the field. Heroclix had Battlefield conditions to silver bullet certain strategies.

Neither exist. Creativity because ill advised in the competitive environment. There is a clear best team. Sorry, but it's the truth.

If it helps, it makes me sad too,
Scott

[cramcompany]

i still think running is not a valid tactic. at worlds or big events i think they should do a shock the turtle format or something to prevent this. ive seen loads of games won just because one guy goes and destroys a lantern or pog or small point fig then runs the entire rest of the game

I think running IS a valid tactic but shouldn't be. It's like Jar Jar man. We all hate him, but that doesn't mean he doesn't exist. If you watch Star Wars.. he's still there. He's still there. Of like Massu you want him to be gone, but he just won't die. (this has been forwarded to him).

Running happens. I am a big believer in well rounded teams that can handle everything. I made top 8 in Worlds 2010. I felt strong about my team.

I sat across from Thing/Metron. He rolled a 4 for map, I rolled a 3. We played on the prison. I nailed down his Thing.. but didn't quite kill him.
He killed Scarlet Witch. He ran.. the rest of the game on the prison. I had my figures all over the map. Even got off a pathatic attack or two through sheer trickery. But he ran and won. Never attacked me again if he couldn't run after.

Running happens. Shock the turtle would make things very interesting. I kinda like it.

[shoogbear63]

The fact that Metron and Nightcrawler are so popular/successful is because of running. Not because those two figures themselves are capable of running, they're capable of handling a runner. It's pretty difficult to outright skirt those two figures.

Krakoa being legal helps the Nightcrawler problem to an extent, but it's just too dramatic of a change. I thought that was Wizkids trying to balance out the Nightcrawler heavy teams.

[spawn10]

i still think running is not a valid tactic. at worlds or big events i think they should do a shock the turtle format or something to prevent this. ive seen loads of games won just because one guy goes and destroys a lantern or pog or small point fig then runs the entire rest of the game

Do you think it SHOULDN'T be allowed or do you really think it just isn't a good tactic? The reality is, IT IS a valid tactic (and a good one if you win), that is a fact that has been displayed in numerous high-level events. But thinking it shouldn't be allowed is a completely different matter. I hate that tactic as well, but until WK says otherwise, you will see it time and time again, especially at high-level events.

[thanosstar]

Do you think it SHOULDN'T be allowed or do you really think it just isn't a good tactic? The reality is, IT IS a valid tactic (and a good one if you win), that is a fact that has been displayed in numerous high-level events. But thinking it shouldn't be allowed is a completely different matter. I hate that tactic as well, but until WK says otherwise, you will see it time and time again, especially at high-level events.

no no. just that it isnt a valid tactic. i will not, have not, and reuse to d=run. cost me several games..BUT it has always won me numerous games as well by being aggressive. whats the fun in running not making attack rolls? now even at gencon i am there for fun..went two and two and worlds on sat by not running. despite the fact 3 of the four teams i played did run from me

[spawn10]

Hmm, I guess I'm not into moral victories. Coming from a "competitive" guy like yourself, I would expect the same, but I guess it's how you look at things. I went 3-1 at Gencon by being aggressive myself (KO'd all the pieces in all my wins). During the Finals (Top 16), the guy I played against ran after he took out my Johnny Quick (he was playing Metron/Crawler). Works both ways. In the end (for me at least), a win is a win. The guy won and advanced to the next round, I lost, so it's a valid tactic. Facts are facts. What you are saying is your opinion, which is fine, and I agree that running sucks, but you can't state it like a fact without supporting evidence. Just doesn't make a good argument.

[thanosstar]

Hmm, I guess I'm not into moral victories. Coming from a "competitive" guy like yourself, I would expect the same, but I guess it's how you look at things. I went 3-1 at Gencon by being aggressive myself (KO'd all the pieces in all my wins). During the Finals (Top 16), the guy I played against ran after he took out my Johnny Quick (he was playing Metron/Crawler). Works both ways. In the end (for me at least), a win is a win. The guy won and advanced to the next round, I lost, so it's a valid tactic. Facts are facts. What you are saying is your opinion, which is fine, and I agree that running sucks, but you can't state it like a fact without supporting evidence. Just doesn't make a good argument.

????????????? how is running even playing the game?? a game based on making attacks and ko'ing opposing characters? i guess i missed the errata where the game is now destroy a lantern and run like heck for 45 minutes

[thanosstar]

Hmm, I guess I'm not into moral victories. Coming from a "competitive" guy like yourself, I would expect the same, but I guess it's how you look at things. I went 3-1 at Gencon by being aggressive myself (KO'd all the pieces in all my wins). During the Finals (Top 16), the guy I played against ran after he took out my Johnny Quick (he was playing Metron/Crawler). Works both ways. In the end (for me at least), a win is a win. The guy won and advanced to the next round, I lost, so it's a valid tactic. Facts are facts. What you are saying is your opinion, which is fine, and I agree that running sucks, but you can't state it like a fact without supporting evidence. Just doesn't make a good argument.

missed the " competitive part" . i do play competitvely at times..but in way most dont. you guys think you have to use the top pieces to win?????? ya dont. you guys brag about how good you are? then show it by playing something no one else isnt

[mecimcim]

Like you never seen a Superhero run form time to time

[lashelton1990]

????????????? how is running even playing the game?? a game based on making attacks and ko'ing opposing characters? i guess i missed the errata where the game is now destroy a lantern and run like heck for 45 minutes

isn't movement part of the game as well? why else would they give you movement? All you seem to be doing is looking at one element of the game and say : "That is the game". such ideas are close minded and simplistic. I think everyone will agree with you that running sucks, but let me remind you that players choose what characters they play and what objects they place on the board. If a person placed a lantern on the board then its their job to protect it and not loose 5 pts.

[thanosstar]

isn't movement part of the game as well? why else would they give you movement? All you seem to be doing is looking at one element of the game and say : "That is the game". such ideas are close minded and simplistic. I think everyone will agree with you that running sucks, but let me remind you that players choose what characters they play and what objects they place on the board. If a person placed a lantern on the board then its their job to protect it and not loose 5 pts.

agreed to a point. i always strategically place my objects where they can be safe..( for a bit anyway)

[foilboll]

you guys think you have to use the top pieces to win?????? ya dont. you guys brag about how good you are? then show it by playing something no one else isnt

hehe, that's cute.

[spawn10]

I guess I missed the errata where you can't play the pieces you want as well as the "unwritten" rule of not playing good pieces. Seriously, this is the crux of your argument? Wow, if you really look at it, you're trying to restrict people from playing what they want, lol. That's so ridiculous I sometimes think that you are just trolling us, and we are feeding you. Good game, sir.

And, I don't recall any bragging, that's strictly you interpreting something completely different. Look, the only reason I respond is because whenever there is a big event where people are having fun and reporting what happened and what was played, you come on with your "holier than thou" attitude (without instigation mind you) and tell anyone and everyone about your disapproval of what was played and how the game was played. Is it that hard for you to accept different play styles and are you that much of a Nazi that you want everyone to conform to your way of thinking?

[thanosstar]

Nope. stated plenty of times its my opinion. then i get attacked for it. But its just an opinion

[Terman8er]

So the best players, skill wise, shouldn't play the best available pieces?

They (and not just he best here but players over all) should play random figures? Figures that they only really like?

Or are you saying there are better pieces/combinations out there that they should have been playing?

[thanosstar]

No. I honestly think they can make devastating combos no one else uses. I dnt undrstand why people want to play the same thing. . . Even if its the best

[Terman8er]

No. I honestly think they can make devastating combos no one else uses. I dnt undrstand why people want to play the same thing. . . Even if its the best

OK, I am glad you think that. But since everyone involved has said they play tested multiple teams and couldn't come up with anything better...

But what really boggles me is... I dnt undrstand why people want to play the same thing. . . Even if its the best

Really? You don't understand even if it is the best?????? Really????

[spawn10]

Nope. stated plenty of times its my opinion. then i get attacked for it. But its just an opinion

Fair enough, I can respect this. But on the flip side, it seems like you're attacking everyone for playing what they think is the best or playing the way they think will get them the win, which I don't get.

What we have to separate I guess, is that in a competitive setting, the teams and tactics employed are for getting the best results possible, which in this case, is a win. Now, that is different from a casual setting, where you fight to the death, play theme teams, etc. If you can't understand this dynamic, then we are at an impasse. YOU might not agree with it, but just being able to see from someone else's perspective and understand the thinking goes a long way.

[lashelton1990]

No. I honestly think they can make devastating combos no one else uses. I dnt undrstand why people want to play the same thing. . . Even if its the best

do you have a combination that you would like to share with us? or are you just saying it without actually play testing? I have play tested a lot of teams and i can vouch for spawn10 that he has play tested more than me, but nothing right now seems to beat nightcrawler/metron. not that we like it, it just happens to be a fact. if you can prove to me that there is a better team out there then i will apologize and never speak about this again.

[thanosstar]

do you have a combination that you would like to share with us? or are you just saying it without actually play testing? I have play tested a lot of teams and i can vouch for spawn10 that he has play tested more than me, but nothing right now seems to beat nightcrawler/metron. not that we like it, it just happens to be a fact. if you can prove to me that there is a better team out there then i will apologize and never speak about this again.

i think a team can beat that...given if its played right. do i know that what at the moment. i am a pretty decent player..but some of these guys like spawn10 are GREAT players. just from watching them one would assume they have some tricks they havent showed yet. sheesh....state my opinion i get gang raped...try to compliment ..get gang raped///ugggg

[thanosstar]

OK, I am glad you think that. But since everyone involved has said they play tested multiple teams and couldn't come up with anything better...

But what really boggles me is...

Really? You don't understand even if it is the best?????? Really????

few years back the new england patriots were undefeated and considered the best...until the super bowl when they fell to the new york giants

[spawn10]

Haha, I wouldn't go that far, I would say I'm decent enough to capitalize when someone makes a placement mistake or misses a relatively easy attack. Thanks, though. I've mentioned before, I agree with what you are saying about running, and I hate seeing the same teams as much as you do, but I have yet to come up with a team that can beat Metron/Nightcrawler or Metron/x for that matter. It either doesn't exist at the moment, or I am not good enough to figure it out, lol.

[thanosstar]

Haha, I wouldn't go that far, I would say I'm decent enough to capitalize when someone makes a placement mistake or misses a relatively easy attack. Thanks, though. I've mentioned before, I agree with what you are saying about running, and I hate seeing the same teams as much as you do, but I have yet to come up with a team that can beat Metron/Nightcrawler or Metron/x for that matter. It either doesn't exist at the moment, or I am not good enough to figure it out, lol.

maybe we should combine minds lol

[lashelton1990]

i think a team can beat that...given if its played right. do i know that what at the moment. i am a pretty decent player..but some of these guys like spawn10 are GREAT players. just from watching them one would assume they have some tricks they havent showed yet. sheesh....state my opinion i get gang raped...try to compliment ..get gang raped///ugggg

so let me present to you what most of us see. someone on the fourms comes to a thread, they bash the top players's teams then turns around and says that he thinks he has a team that can beat the top teams but doesn't know. From what you have said i am going to assume that you haven't played in a final at a huge event like this. now with all of that in perspective you complain about people "raping" you. How else would you like them to treat you?

[thanosstar]

so let me present to you what most of us see. someone on the fourms comes to a thread, they bash the top players's teams then turns around and says that he thinks he has a team that can beat the top teams but doesn't know. From what you have said i am going to assume that you haven't played in a final at a huge event like this. now with all of that in perspective you complain about people "raping" you. How else would you like them to treat you?

nope. never once said i had that team. but im sure there is one out there.

[Terman8er]

few years back the new england patriots were undefeated and considered the best...until the super bowl when they fell to the new york giants

As a Patriots UnFan I commend your analogy even if it doesn't really work. The Pats fell victim to a great pass rush. They faced their "silver bullet", so to speak.

Now I know there are teams that exist to beat Metron + Support (because it all really comes down to Metron) but can those same teams beat every other competitive team out there too? Martial Artists? Thunderbolts? Because if not they probably won't make it to the finals to face the Metron team.

[RockMan]

nope. never once said i had that team. but im sure there is one out there.

What makes you so sure? This is a genuine question. Are you sure because you just assume in the amount of modern figures there must be something better or are you sure because you plan to unleash your team at an upcoming event and want people to be surprised? Or is it another reason that you arrayed it exists?

I do want to commend you and Komixfreak for responding to our questions about why you hate these teams.

[endlessclix]

Pay no attention. This argument exists in virtually every game where "tiers" of characters play a role in the metagame. Same people complain about Yun/Yang in SSFIVAE instead of learning how to counter the character.

[thanosstar]

What makes you so sure? This is a genuine question. Are you sure because you just assume in the amount of modern figures there must be something better or are you sure because you plan to unleash your team at an upcoming event and want people to be surprised? Or is it another reason that you arrayed it exists?

I do want to commend you and Komixfreak for responding to our questions about why you hate these teams.

i have a few ideas nothing glaring yet....but i still think there is a counter.

[ViperWingLeade]

Magic the Gathering has a sideboard for a reason. it's smart.

Privateer Press has you bring two army lists, based on the faction you opponant is playing you can pick which list you want to use, every game.

No mind you they don;t reveal their army, just the faction.

Now the question becomes what do you want top teir tournaments to be about? Are they about the player? the pieces? In my opinion the Modern format focuses the game on the pieces and the not the player. Course I also think that the pieces they put out do the same thing. I think that is what is killing me about the current format.

In any collectable game there is going to be a "I brought this so I win" factor, again as I mentioned Vet Icons Supes, Ultimates Thor, but in the golden age format, as mentioned there are things to mitigate that.

I think one of the things that this whole argument comes down to is NGE, or Negative Game Experience.

NGE is when you play and you don;t feel like you ever had a fair chance to win, or the Game itself somehow beat you with a weird ruling or something like that. One of my worst NGEs with Mechwarrior was having the only remaining pieces on the board and still losing. How you ask?

Well in what would be the final shot of the game, my mech fired on his. It knocked his mech into salvage. I won VC one because I had pieces left on the field ((no one gets points for a salvaged mech, it just drops out of the pointing)) he won VC three by about 2 points, and then He won VC two, because the army minus the mech I killed, didn't add up to what he killed on my team, and since I don;t get the points for a salvaged mech even though it ends the game....I lose.

That was frustrating.

I see the Nightcrawler/Metron thing the same way. It doesn't sound like a particularly fun army to play against. ((since I have never run across it.)), everybody is going to run it because it wins, and you know as someone running anything else you are going to HAVE to face it.

So here is an army that you don;t particularly like, you know you are going to see, and have to beat to win, and you may have to face more than one.

Where is the fun in that? There isn't any. Which is why tournaments are more or less ALWAYS, and NGE for me. Because EVERYONE wants to win, and win hard, especially in the higher teirs.

Heck the first year of Mechwarrior Nationals, my friends who already qualified on points, and by winning Qualfiers, went to the meat grinders, and knocked people out to make the field easier for themselves.

Of the top 16 armies in the 2007 Mechwarrior Nationals day one ((sealed)) 15 had Assault Mechs in them, because assaults were almost always unique, and at that time Uniques came with their pilots and a supporting peice of gear packed in with them.

I myself pulled 2 medium and 1 light mech, and none of my pilots were usuable. Which wouldn't be so bad except the attitudes of my opponants got worse as the day wore on. so much so that I decided to not participate in the constructed side of their tournament since I went 0-5 the day before, and my opponant for round 4 was a younger kid, and Yell out "I SCHOOOLED HIM!" when he won.

It was an NGE all the way around.

So the basis of this thread is what would tourn big tournaments into non-NGEs? and the answer is different for different people, but not seeing Nightcrawler/x is one thing because we ALL know we are GOING to see it.

I think the best thing to do is resign yourself to the fact that big tournaments CAN be fun ((I really liked MOST of my oponants in the friday and invitational at Dragon*Con)), but probably is gonna be a slog, and if at that point it's gonna be a slog, and not a whole heck of a lot to do to make it fun, you might as well play to win with the hardest army you can find. Because NGEs are easier to take when you are playing to win, and not a team your are emotionally invested in.

[foilboll]

Privateer Press has you bring two army lists, based on the faction you opponant is playing you can pick which list you want to use, every game.

No mind you they don;t reveal their army, just the faction.

Now the question becomes what do you want top teir tournaments to be about? Are they about the player? the pieces? In my opinion the Modern format focuses the game on the pieces and the not the player. Course I also think that the pieces they put out do the same thing. I think that is what is killing me about the current format.

In any collectable game there is going to be a "I brought this so I win" factor, again as I mentioned Vet Icons Supes, Ultimates Thor, but in the golden age format, as mentioned there are things to mitigate that.

I think one of the things that this whole argument comes down to is NGE, or Negative Game Experience.

NGE is when you play and you don;t feel like you ever had a fair chance to win, or the Game itself somehow beat you with a weird ruling or something like that. One of my worst NGEs with Mechwarrior was having the only remaining pieces on the board and still losing. How you ask?

Well in what would be the final shot of the game, my mech fired on his. It knocked his mech into salvage. I won VC one because I had pieces left on the field ((no one gets points for a salvaged mech, it just drops out of the pointing)) he won VC three by about 2 points, and then He won VC two, because the army minus the mech I killed, didn't add up to what he killed on my team, and since I don;t get the points for a salvaged mech even though it ends the game....I lose.

That was frustrating.

I see the Nightcrawler/Metron thing the same way. It doesn't sound like a particularly fun army to play against. ((since I have never run across it.)), everybody is going to run it because it wins, and you know as someone running anything else you are going to HAVE to face it.

So here is an army that you don;t particularly like, you know you are going to see, and have to beat to win, and you may have to face more than one.

Where is the fun in that? There isn't any. Which is why tournaments are more or less ALWAYS, and NGE for me. Because EVERYONE wants to win, and win hard, especially in the higher teirs.

Heck the first year of Mechwarrior Nationals, my friends who already qualified on points, and by winning Qualfiers, went to the meat grinders, and knocked people out to make the field easier for themselves.

Of the top 16 armies in the 2007 Mechwarrior Nationals day one ((sealed)) 15 had Assault Mechs in them, because assaults were almost always unique, and at that time Uniques came with their pilots and a supporting peice of gear packed in with them.

I myself pulled 2 medium and 1 light mech, and none of my pilots were usuable. Which wouldn't be so bad except the attitudes of my opponants got worse as the day wore on. so much so that I decided to not participate in the constructed side of their tournament since I went 0-5 the day before, and my opponant for round 4 was a younger kid, and Yell out "I SCHOOOLED HIM!" when he won.

It was an NGE all the way around.

So the basis of this thread is what would tourn big tournaments into non-NGEs? and the answer is different for different people, but not seeing Nightcrawler/x is one thing because we ALL know we are GOING to see it.

I think the best thing to do is resign yourself to the fact that big tournaments CAN be fun ((I really liked MOST of my oponants in the friday and invitational at Dragon*Con)), but probably is gonna be a slog, and if at that point it's gonna be a slog, and not a whole heck of a lot to do to make it fun, you might as well play to win with the hardest army you can find. Because NGEs are easier to take when you are playing to win, and not a team your are emotionally invested in.

I agree with you, for the most part. As I've said before in other flamier threads the core issue here isn't the competitive player mindset, it's the Negative Play Experience that the designers of this game foster. But whenever I try to talk about it on the realms, I get a replies a lot like the one below:

"Don't blame the designers, this game is awesome, it's your fault for playing cheesy teams!" - random "casual"

I can't think of another game on the market today that has such a blindly loyal fanbase. You guys do remember that Heroclix was dead for over a year right? Am I to assume that was the fault of the players and not the various companies that had taken a #### all over the game?

[ViperWingLeade]

"Don't blame the designers, this game is awesome, it's your fault for playing cheesy teams!" - random "casual"

I still love playing, but in my opinion the game took a turn for the worse with Traits and Special Powers. Meaning you can write whatever you want. WHile it sounds good in theory it means we get pieces that are just nutty.

And back in the Icons days Wizkids was not known for its playtesting ability. Since Vet Icons Supes came out and cause the company to actually chnage the rules in order to deal with that fig.

I can't think of another game on the market today that has such a blindly loyal fanbase. You guys do remember that Heroclix was dead for over a year right? Am I to assume that was the fault of the players and not the various companies that had taken a #### all over the game?

Blindly loyal... Hmm in that "There are no mistakes"? Privateer newbies, and 40K fans come close.

Typically it is people who first come in and don;t have the experience to have the NGEs and understand the theory behind the game.

[foilboll]

I still love playing, but in my opinion the game took a turn for the worse with Traits and Special Powers. Meaning you can write whatever you want. WHile it sounds good in theory it means we get pieces that are just nutty.

And back in the Icons days Wizkids was not known for its playtesting ability. Since Vet Icons Supes came out and cause the company to actually chnage the rules in order to deal with that fig.



Blindly loyal... Hmm in that "There are no mistakes"? Privateer newbies, and 40K fans come close.

Typically it is people who first come in and don;t have the experience to have the NGEs and understand the theory behind the game.

I think for a lot of people, Heroclix is the only game they play and that somehow translates to unwavering support, even when the people making this game show a tremendous lapse in judgement.

[ViperWingLeade]

I think for a lot of people, Heroclix is the only game they play and that somehow translates to unwavering support, even when the people making this game show a tremendous lapse in judgement

They have before, and quite frankly all of us have a choice every time we see this with wizkids---man up, or quit.

Now there have been times I quit. I quit after NAAT came about because it instantly rendered so many attackers without move and attack abilities useless.

But then Legacy was just so damned pretty.

Anyway, yes a lot of people Heroclix is their only game/gaming experience... just like Magic, and Yu-Gi-Oh and pokemon. I on the other hand am a gaming #####, and will try just about anything as long as it has models. This gives me a different presepctive. As well as insight into games just a tad more complex that Heroclix.

((BTW Battleship Galaxies is awesome! pick up a copy! :->))

[foilboll]

Is it still just a 2-player game?

I'm really looking forward to Risk: Legacy. I'm sure we'll go through 5 boxes easily.

[ViperWingLeade]

Is it still just a 2-player game?

I'm really looking forward to Risk: Legacy. I'm sure we'll go through 5 boxes easily.

It is 2 player, for now, though you could buy multiple boxes.

It looks like it will get the Heroscape treatment of multiple expansions and factions...since the designers worked on Heroscape...and it's starship combat thats EASY enough to play but complex enough to keep your attention.

[Norym]

When is the first post with the rest of the results going to be updated?

I'm trying to get to it, I've got a newborn at home and hes taking up most of my time right this minute.


How about now?

Not that it really matters now, DragonCon ended 3 weeks ago.

[TH0MAS5]

How about now?

Not that it really matters now, DragonCon ended 3 weeks ago.

How about now ?

[Norym]

How about now ?

Well, I guess 3 months is too short a time to update a list... I will check back next year.

[ViperWingLeade]

I am still looking for the offical pics taken of the winners and such